Oort Gnus

Oort Gnus

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

The more I think about "Oort" as the prefix for the next cycle, the
more I like it.   For instance:

-------
It's big.

It's far out.

It occasionally rains fiery death upon the unsuspecting.

Oort Gnus.
-------

(Or something along those lines.)

I mean, you can't do stuff like that with Ontario Gnus or Oodnadata
Gnus or Omsk Gnus or Orange Free State Gnus, can you?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Oort Gnus

[Alexandre Oliva]

On Jan 16, 2000, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:

> The more I think about "Oort" as the prefix for the next cycle, the
> more I like it.

Sounds good.  But I like ``Obviously Gnus''.  That's what I reply when
someon asks me what I use to read e-mail :-)

-- 
Alexandre Oliva http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva IC-Unicamp, Bra[sz]il
oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br,guarana.{org,com}} aoliva@{acm,computer}.org
oliva@{gnu.org,kaffe.org,{egcs,sourceware}.cygnus.com,samba.org}
** I may forward mail about projects to mailing lists; please use them

Re: Oort Gnus

[Denys Duchier]

Alexandre Oliva <oliva@lsd.ic.unicamp.br> writes:

> On Jan 16, 2000, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
> 
> > The more I think about "Oort" as the prefix for the next cycle, the
> > more I like it.

if you called it "Oops", you wouldn't need a disclaimer :-)
hard to say though!  oops gnus... oops gnus...

-- 
Dr. Denys Duchier			Denys.Duchier@ps.uni-sb.de
Forschungsbereich Programmiersysteme	(Programming Systems Lab)
Universitaet des Saarlandes, Geb. 45	http://www.ps.uni-sb.de/~duchier
Postfach 15 11 50			Phone: +49 681 302 5618
66041 Saarbruecken, Germany		Fax:   +49 681 302 5615

Re: Oort Gnus

[Eric S. Johansson]

On Jan 16, 2000, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
 
> The more I think about "Oort" as the prefix for the next cycle, the
> more I like it.

hmmm.  using gnus is like being pummeled with flaming frozen rocks
from space...

OTOH, we could also call it (sn)oort gnus.

--- eric

Eric S. Johansson    esj@inguide.com	esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us
This message was composed almost entirely using NaturallySpeaking

Re: Oort Gnus

[Johan Kullstam]

"Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us> writes:

> On Jan 16, 2000, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
>  
> > The more I think about "Oort" as the prefix for the next cycle, the
> > more I like it.
> 
> hmmm.  using gnus is like being pummeled with flaming frozen rocks
> from space...
> 
> OTOH, we could also call it (sn)oort gnus.

i like Oört gnus.

btw what wants to be done in the new gnus?  is there a wish-list of
sorts somewhere?

-- 
J o h a n  K u l l s t a m
[kullstam@ne.mediaone.net]
Don't Fear the Penguin!

Re: Oort Gnus

[Kai Großjohann]

"Johan Kullstam" <kullstam@ne.mediaone.net> writes:

> btw what wants to be done in the new gnus?  is there a wish-list of
> sorts somewhere?

There was a discussion on this list a while ago.  Not many features
were requested, I recall.

kai
-- 
A large number of young women don't trust men with beards.  (BFBS Radio)

Re: Oort Gnus

[Harry Putnam]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> "Johan Kullstam" <kullstam@ne.mediaone.net> writes:
> 
> > btw what wants to be done in the new gnus?  is there a wish-list of
> > sorts somewhere?
> 
> There was a discussion on this list a while ago.  Not many features
> were requested, I recall.


Agent ... Agent and more Agent.

Agent functions need to be brought into line with the full scope of
mail backend options.   Full manipulation of agent files as if gnus
owned them (which it does )

Re: Oort Gnus

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>:

> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>> "Johan Kullstam" <kullstam@ne.mediaone.net> writes:

>> > btw what wants to be done in the new gnus?  is there a wish-list of
>> > sorts somewhere?
>> 
>> There was a discussion on this list a while ago.  Not many features
>> were requested, I recall.

> Agent ... Agent and more Agent.

> Agent functions need to be brought into line with the full scope of
> mail backend options.  Full manipulation of agent files as if gnus
> owned them (which it does )

Agent for nnimap improved from flaky to perfect, and with delayed
attachment dowloading comes to mind.

Re: Oort Gnus

[Big Gaute]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
> 
> > "Johan Kullstam" <kullstam@ne.mediaone.net> writes:
> > 
> > > btw what wants to be done in the new gnus?  is there a wish-list of
> > > sorts somewhere?
> > 
> > There was a discussion on this list a while ago.  Not many features
> > were requested, I recall.
> 
> 
> Agent ... Agent and more Agent.
> 
> Agent functions need to be brought into line with the full scope of
> mail backend options.   Full manipulation of agent files as if gnus
> owned them (which it does )

Speaking as a fairly new gnus user, I can only agree.  I used agent
and imap at home this Christmas to read my mail (including several
mailing lists) and it worked quite well, but it is all a bit crude.
It would be nice if agent was smart enough to always store articles
that I read while plugged, and only use the plugged / unplugged status
to decide whether to go and look at the server as well as among
locally stored articles.

A somewhat related thing I'd like to see would be a divorce between
some of the more specialised backends, in particular nndraft, and the
actual backend used to store the articles.  Possibly agent could be
implemented as a sort of middleman in such a layer, though I wouldn't
know.

It's a bit rude of me to suggest sweeping changes like this without
any real knowledge of what goes on inside gnus, but at least I think
it should be clear what sort of functionally I'm missing.

-- 
Big Gaute (not to be confused with LG)
"There was a time when a guy who died at forty was revered as the toughest
and most doggedly ancient son of a bitch in Cow Ass Clearing, Shitoleshire,
Engalond, back in the year dot." - Spider Jerusalem, Transmetropolitan #25

Re: Oort Gnus

[Raymond Scholz]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> There was a discussion on this list a while ago.  Not many features
> were requested, I recall.

There's also the "Newest Features" list in the Info
documentation. Some of these items are already implemented, some might
be in the future and others probably won't (see last item).

Cheers,
  Ray
-- 
Raymond Scholz -*- rscholz@tzi.de -*- http://www.tzi.de/~rscholz/
FB 3 Informatik, Universität Bremen -*- PGP key available via WWW

Re: Oort Gnus

[Randal L. Schwartz]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii, Size: 859 bytes --]

>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

Kai> "Johan Kullstam" <kullstam@ne.mediaone.net> writes:
>> btw what wants to be done in the new gnus?  is there a wish-list of
>> sorts somewhere?

Kai> There was a discussion on this list a while ago.  Not many features
Kai> were requested, I recall.

Well, there's the one major fix that is still necessary so that I
don't get 752 lines of "No new mail" when I "2 M-g" in the Summary
buffer.  I'm glad I'm not holding my breath for the fix, but it makes
some operations next to useless.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: Oort Gnus

[Colin Rafferty]

Randal L Schwartz writes:

> Well, there's the one major fix that is still necessary so that I
> don't get 752 lines of "No new mail" when I "2 M-g" in the Summary
> buffer.  I'm glad I'm not holding my breath for the fix, but it makes
> some operations next to useless.

If you use nnml, run this function instead.  You will only get the "No
new mail" for the number of folders that have new mail.

(defun gnus-group-get-new-nnml ()
  "Get new mail only."
  (interactive)
  (let ((gnus-group-new-mail-list nil)
	(method '(nnml ""))
	(nnml-prepare-save-mail-hook
	 (cons '(lambda ()
		  (setq gnus-group-new-mail-list
			(union gnus-group-new-mail-list
			       (mapcar 'car group-art))))
	       nnml-prepare-save-mail-hook)))
    (when (gnus-check-server method)
      (gnus-request-scan nil method))
    (while gnus-group-new-mail-list
      (let ((gnus-group-marked (mapcar '(lambda (group)
					  (concat "nnml:" group))
				       gnus-group-new-mail-list)))
	(setq gnus-group-new-mail-list nil)
	(gnus-group-get-new-news-this-group)))
    (when gnus-goto-next-group-when-activating
      (gnus-group-next-unread-group 1 t))
    (gnus-summary-position-point)
    (run-hooks 'gnus-after-getting-new-news-hook)
    (gnus-group-list-groups)))

;; Colin

Re: Oort Gnus

[David Hedbor]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> "Johan Kullstam" <kullstam@ne.mediaone.net> writes:
> 
> > btw what wants to be done in the new gnus?  is there a wish-list of
> > sorts somewhere?
> 
> There was a discussion on this list a while ago.  Not many features
> were requested, I recall.

message/partial support comes to mind as one feature I want. Not that
I want to use it, but it would be nice to be able to decode the beasts.

-- 
[ Below is a random fortune, which is unrelated to the above message. ]
First Law of Socio-Genetics:
	Celibacy is not hereditary.

Re: Oort Gnus

[Daniel Pittman]

On 18 Jan 2000, Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE>
wrote:

> "Johan Kullstam" <kullstam@ne.mediaone.net> writes:
> 
>> btw what wants to be done in the new gnus?  is there a wish-list of
>> sorts somewhere?
> 
> There was a discussion on this list a while ago.  Not many features
> were requested, I recall.

The ability to assign arbitrary mappings of faces to entries with the
scoring system rather than just a numeric range would be nice. That way
I could flag different threads as interesting for reasons, rather than
just as `interesting'.

        Daniel

-- 
Reality is not as strong as perception. Perception all too often swallows
reality and spits it out in a new, unrecognizable form.
        -- Maytee Aspuro

breaking up .newsrc.eld (was Re: Oort Gnus)

[Sam Falkner]

I would like it if .newsrc.eld were broken up into "configuration" and
"current state (aka .newsrc)".  I'd like this because configuration
stuff is appropriate for moving between sites, but current state is
site-specific.

I keep most of my config files between work and home "in sync".
Changes I make to my .emacs at work will soon end up at home, and
vice-versa.  (I do this via the perforce source control package, and
it's very nice, if you care. :-)

But for gnus, .emacs and .gnus don't quite cover it.  Much of the data
that I care about is in the .newsrc.eld file.  Stuff like the group
and topic hierarchy, and group and topic parameters.  I can't copy
.newsrc.eld back and forth between work and home, because I don't have
the same articles and NNTP servers available in both places.

I think I could partially work around the problem by copying
.newsrc.eld and touching the local .newsrc so that it was newer.  But
that wouldn't work for email, and email is very important to me.

I'm not sure of the best way to do this.  Create a new config file,
mostly maintained by gnus (like a score or adapt file, or an active
file), and have .newsrc.eld become nothing more than a .newsrc that's
made into S-expressions would be my first thought.

- Sam

Re: breaking up .newsrc.eld (was Re: Oort Gnus)

[lconrad]

>>>>> "Sam" == Sam Falkner <samf@central.sun.com> writes:

    Sam> I would like it if .newsrc.eld were broken up into
    Sam> "configuration" and "current state (aka .newsrc)".  I'd like
    Sam> this because configuration stuff is appropriate for moving
    Sam> between sites, but current state is site-specific.
    Sam> control package, and it's very nice, if you care. :-)

I agree with this.  Although I see some problems with deciding about
individual features.  For instance the way I sort emails into nnml
groups is clearly configuration, but is different at work and at home.

A related problem is that there isn't an obvious way to transfer (or
not transfer) the per-group configuration information.

And with email or news that I read both at home and at work, it would
be nice to have a good way to transfer the "current state"
information, too.

-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad@world.std.com , http://www.world.std.com/~lconrad/ )
(617) 661-8097	fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139

Re: breaking up .newsrc.eld (was Re: Oort Gnus)

[Steve Harris]

lconrad@world.std.com writes:

[...]

> A related problem is that there isn't an obvious way to transfer (or
> not transfer) the per-group configuration information.

One idea would be for Gnus to store group-specific state and
configuration in a per-group file (or in two separate files), similar
to the way SCORE and ADAPT files work. That would help to, say,
synchronize mail group settings and states and a few newsgroup
settings between work and home, allowing you to select which aspects
to share.

-- 
Steven E. Harris
Primus Knowledge Solutions, Inc.
http://www.primus.com

Re: breaking up .newsrc.eld (was Re: Oort Gnus)

[Steve Harris]

Sam Falkner <samf@central.sun.com> writes:

> I would like it if .newsrc.eld were broken up into "configuration" and
> "current state (aka .newsrc)".  I'd like this because configuration
> stuff is appropriate for moving between sites, but current state is
> site-specific.

[...]

Amen. I find that some of my most precious configurations are group-
or topic-specific. It's hard to share these settings at different
sites (or even just copy the settings from an existing group to a new,
similar group) because of binding between state and configuration in a
single file.

We can probably each think of some benefits, but what are the costs?
Is there some reason why this can't be done, or why the idea was
rejected in the past?

-- 
Steven E. Harris
Primus Knowledge Solutions, Inc.
http://www.primus.com

Re: breaking up .newsrc.eld (was Re: Oort Gnus)

[Kai Großjohann]

Sam Falkner <samf@central.sun.com> writes:

> I would like it if .newsrc.eld were broken up into "configuration" and
> "current state (aka .newsrc)".  I'd like this because configuration
> stuff is appropriate for moving between sites, but current state is
> site-specific.

I think that we should have server-specific .newsrc.eld files.  This
leaves us with config info which transcends servers (such as the topic
topology), but I think that can be dealt with somehow.

This was brought up quite some time ago, but nothing much became of
it.  But maybe this time?

kai
-- 
A large number of young women don't trust men with beards.  (BFBS Radio)

Re: breaking up .newsrc.eld

[Toby Speight]

Kai> Kai Großjohann <URL:mailto:Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE>

0> In article <vafd7qxiy5k.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>, Kai wrote:

Kai> Sam Falkner <samf@central.sun.com> writes:

>> I would like it if .newsrc.eld were broken up into "configuration" and
>> "current state (aka .newsrc)".  I'd like this because configuration
>> stuff is appropriate for moving between sites, but current state is
>> site-specific.

Kai> I think that we should have server-specific .newsrc.eld files.
Kai> This leaves us with config info which transcends servers (such as
Kai> the topic topology), but I think that can be dealt with somehow.

This ties in with my wish - get rid of the concept of "primary
server".  Instead have just the list of all known servers.  Things
that need to choose a server (e.g. posting a new article from the
*Group* buffer) can consult variables which say which server to use by
default.  Like

  (setq gnus-post-default-server "nntp:news.example.com")

And provide a way of reading the cached articles from a dead server
(guess whose primary server went away recently?).

Re: breaking up .newsrc.eld

[Kai Großjohann]

Toby Speight <Toby.Speight@streapadair.freeserve.co.uk> writes:

> And provide a way of reading the cached articles from a dead server
> (guess whose primary server went away recently?).

I think you can use `G D' to read the cached articles right now.

kai
-- 
A large number of young women don't trust men with beards.  (BFBS Radio)

Re: breaking up .newsrc.eld

[Kai Großjohann]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> I think you can use `G D' to read the cached articles right now.

Also see `Creating a Virtual Server' in the Gnus info file.

kai
-- 
A large number of young women don't trust men with beards.  (BFBS Radio)

Re: Oort Gnus

[Matt Simmons]

>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

    Kai> "Johan Kullstam" <kullstam@ne.mediaone.net> writes:
    >> btw what wants to be done in the new gnus?  is there a wish-list of
    >> sorts somewhere?

    Kai> There was a discussion on this list a while ago.  Not many features
    Kai> were requested, I recall.

How about a fast replacement for nnml?  Something for those of us with
extremely large nnml groups who don't like having to spend a day every
month (because in my case it does take the lion's share of a day)
moving 10,000 messages off to another group?

Please?

Matt

-- 
     Matt Simmons  -  simmonmt@acm.org  -  http://www.netcom.com/~simmonmt
  The most important thing in a programming language is the name.  A language
  will not succeed without a good name.  I have recently invented a very good
    name and now I am looking for a suitable language.  -- D. E. Knuth, 1967

Re: Oort Gnus

[Alan Shutko]

Matt Simmons <simmonmt@acm.org> writes:

> How about a fast replacement for nnml?

Yikes, and nnml was supposed to be a fast replacement for everything
else.  Any ideas on how it would work?

-- 
Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> - In a variety of flavors!
Hire the morally handicapped.

Re: Oort Gnus

[Oyvind Moll]

* Alan Shutko
|
| Matt Simmons <simmonmt@acm.org> writes:
| 
| > How about a fast replacement for nnml?
| 
| Yikes, and nnml was supposed to be a fast replacement for everything
| else.  Any ideas on how it would work?

Keep all messages, regardless of folder, in a shared hashed directory
hierarchy, and let all the groups/folders just be references to
subsets of these messages?

Oh what do I know -- I'm way too drunk at the moment to make sense.

-- 
   Øyvind Møll
   oyvindmo@initio.no
   http://www.initio.no/
   vi(1) gjør Norge billigere.

Re: Oort Gnus

[Colin Rafferty]

Øyvind Møll writes:
> * Alan Shutko
> | Matt Simmons <simmonmt@acm.org> writes:

> | > How about a fast replacement for nnml?

> | Yikes, and nnml was supposed to be a fast replacement for everything
> | else.  Any ideas on how it would work?

> Keep all messages, regardless of folder, in a shared hashed directory
> hierarchy, and let all the groups/folders just be references to
> subsets of these messages?

This would also solve the edited cross-post problem.  Namely, if I get
a message destined for two groups, it gets x-posted with a link.
However, if I edit one version, I would really want both versions
edited.

Of course, this would mean that the hash would be something that is
just assigned when the message arrives, and is not expected to be
recomputed.

Of course, this doesn't solve the 10k line .overview file.  It will
still take forever to read this in.

Unless we do a lisp .overview, like .newsrc.eld.  Instead of parsing
the .overview ourselves, just let (read) do it.

Of course, we still have to build the *Summary*.

-- 
Colin

Re: Oort Gnus

[Fabrice Popineau]

> > | Yikes, and nnml was supposed to be a fast replacement for everything
> > | else.  Any ideas on how it would work?

What about about using the gdbm interface under XEmacs ?

Fabrice

Re: Oort Gnus

[Jaap-Henk Hoepman]

On 29 Jan 2000 12:06:48 -0500 Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> writes:
> Matt Simmons <simmonmt@acm.org> writes:
> 
> > How about a fast replacement for nnml?
> 
> Yikes, and nnml was supposed to be a fast replacement for everything
> else.  Any ideas on how it would work?
> 

Yes. nnfolder with .overview files.... (as suggested on this thread earlier)

(although this may not be faster depending on what you do with these, though I
would expect it to be faster if you had to move 10000+ messages from a single
source to a single destination: it would only need to open and close a file
four (both folder + overview) instead of 20000 times)

Jaap-Henk

-- 
Jaap-Henk Hoepman             | Come sail your ships around me
Dept. of Computer Science     | And burn these bridges down
University of Twente          |       Nick Cave - "Ship Song"
Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman
Phone: +31 53 4893795 === Secr: +31 53 4893770 === Fax: +31 53 4894590
PGP ID: 0xF52E26DD  Fingerprint: 1AED DDEB C7F1 DBB3  0556 4732 4217 ABEF

Re: Oort Gnus

[Per Abrahamsen]

Matt Simmons <simmonmt@acm.org> writes:

> How about a fast replacement for nnml?  Something for those of us with
> extremely large nnml groups who don't like having to spend a day every
> month (because in my case it does take the lion's share of a day)
> moving 10,000 messages off to another group?

I do the opposite, when a nnml group reach an unmanageable number of
messages, I start a new one and edit the split rules.  For the ding
list, I start a new folder each time a new alpha development cycle
begins.

Re: Oort Gnus

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>:

> The more I think about "Oort" as the prefix for the next cycle, the
> more I like it.   For instance:

Hm... compare with Oslo.

> -------
> It's big.

Nope.

> It's far out.

Nope.

> It occasionally rains fiery death upon the unsuspecting.

No... but it did rain ice on the unsuspecting road travellers last
weekend. 

Re: Oort Gnus

[Mick Gower]

>>> Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> writes:

>>>>>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>:
>> The more I think about "Oort" as the prefix for the next cycle, the
>> more I like it.   For instance:

SB> Hm... compare with Oslo.

>> -------
>> It's big.

SB> Nope.

>> It's far out.

SB> Nope.

>> It occasionally rains fiery death upon the unsuspecting.

SB> No... but it did rain ice on the unsuspecting road travellers last
SB> weekend. 

Oxford, Oswestry, or Outside, which is a place just outside my window,
yours too possibly :-)

-- 
Mick Gower

Re: Oort Gnus

[Jerry James]

On 18 Jan 2000 at 15:50:57 +0000, Mick Gower <mick@dexter.clara.co.uk>
wrote:
> Oxford, Oswestry, or Outside, which is a place just outside my window,
> yours too possibly :-)

So I guess Ordinary Gnus [1] is out, eh?

[1] Which invites comparisons with a Major Motion Picture that came to a
    theater near you 7, 20, and 58 years ago, respectively.
-- 
Jerry James, who is neither ossified nor oleander

  "Whenever I think of the past, it brings back so many memories..."
  -- Stephen Wright