Re: GNKSA and Gnus

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[Per Abrahamsen]

[ Lars:  I'd be willing to work on 10d and 10e if you are interested. ]

The GNKSA requirements seem reasonable to me.  Some of the SHOULD
doesn't really apply to Gnus because of special concerns, which I
suspect is why they are SHOULD and not MUST.

>     7c   Does not restrict references sensibly

I often have to manually edit the references line when posting
followups in gnu.misc.discuss in order to make INN accept it.  I guess
it happens in gnu.misc.discuss because

1) The threads there are very deep.
2) There are a high fraction of Gnus users, thus none of the posters
   software will restrict the header.

This is with 

nntp-server-type's value is 
"200 ssv2.dina.kvl.dk InterNetNews NNRP server INN 1.5.1 17-Dec-1996 ready (posting ok).\n"

I found this in the config file.

##  Maximum size of a single header.
#### =()<MAXHEADERSIZE          @<MAXHEADERSIZE>@>()=
MAXHEADERSIZE           1024

I would feel more safe having Gnus truncate the header, than doing it myself.

> Additionally, the software violates the `soft' GNKSA requirements
> (SHOULDs) in the following way:
>     10d  Does not omit (proper) signatures from quoted text

I think Gnus should do that.  The default Gnus citation handler is too
barebone, probably in reaction too the alternative citation handler
(SuperCite) which is too advanced.

>     10e  Does not let the user indicate which part to followup to

This is something Gravity does, and in general a good idea.  It migth
make less sense for Gnus.  However, I think it would be nice if
quoting would be restricted to the currently region in the messsage
being quoted, iff `transient-message-mode' is on, and the region is
active.

>     10g  Attribution line lacks Message-ID of original article

This is the only point I disagree with.  The message-id is in the
references line, which should be enough.  I don't think therte is
anything resembling a consensus on whether it should be included in
the attribution line as well.

>     16b  Does not refuse posting an empty article
>     16d  Does not refuse to post quoted text only
>     16f  Does not try to prevent posting multiple copies entirely

Actually, I believe I have gotten warnings for all three of these.

> The software sports the following nice net-keeping features unmentioned
> by the GNKSA:

Command to fetch FAQ for the group.

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[Russ Allbery]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> I often have to manually edit the references line when posting followups
> in gnu.misc.discuss in order to make INN accept it.  I guess it happens
> in gnu.misc.discuss because

> 1) The threads there are very deep.
> 2) There are a high fraction of Gnus users, thus none of the posters
>    software will restrict the header.

I stand corrected.

> ##  Maximum size of a single header.
> #### =()<MAXHEADERSIZE          @<MAXHEADERSIZE>@>()=
> MAXHEADERSIZE           1024

I believe this only affects headers which are not continued.  If one uses
continuation lines, headers can be much larger.  (Or that at least is my
understanding.)  Keep in mind that the version of Gnus that I'm using
still wraps References using continuation lines; I think Lars took that
out at some point?

It sounds like either the header wrapping code needs to be put back in or
Gnus needs to shorten the Reference headers it generates, in the short
term.  In the long term, I expect the new news RFC to require References
headers not be truncated.

> This is something Gravity does, and in general a good idea.  It migth
> make less sense for Gnus.  However, I think it would be nice if quoting
> would be restricted to the currently region in the messsage being
> quoted, iff `transient-message-mode' is on, and the region is active.

I still don't think this idea makes any sense.  But YMMV.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Selective quoting (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Per Abrahamsen]

Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes:

> Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
> 
> > This is something Gravity does, and in general a good idea.  It migth
> > make less sense for Gnus.  However, I think it would be nice if quoting
> > would be restricted to the currently region in the messsage being
> > quoted, iff `transient-message-mode' is on, and the region is active.
> 
> I still don't think this idea makes any sense.  But YMMV.

Think of the typical new user with a windows based newsreader.  Would
you rather have that 

1) He had to select which parts of the article to quote, or
2) he had to select which parts of the article not to quote?

I'd prefer #1, since I believe that having to make an explicit
decision to quote some text would encourage him to only quote the
relevant parts of the message.  

Now Gnus is different because it is part of Emacs, and the commands
must make sense within that frameworks, and Gnus users are in average
more experienced than, say, users of MS Internet News.  Thus, you
don't see as many beginner-errors with Gnus, and adding extra code to
prevent them makes less sense in that context.

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> [ Lars:  I'd be willing to work on 10d and 10e if you are interested. ]

Sure.

> nntp-server-type's value is 
> "200 ssv2.dina.kvl.dk InterNetNews NNRP server INN 1.5.1 17-Dec-1996 ready (posting ok).\n"
> 
> I found this in the config file.
> 
> ##  Maximum size of a single header.
> #### =()<MAXHEADERSIZE          @<MAXHEADERSIZE>@>()=
> MAXHEADERSIZE           1024

Hm.  Is this the default?  If so, I think Gnus should just go back to
folding the header.

> >     10d  Does not omit (proper) signatures from quoted text
> 
> I think Gnus should do that.  The default Gnus citation handler is too
> barebone, probably in reaction too the alternative citation handler
> (SuperCite) which is too advanced.

Providing an alternative to `message-cite-original' that removes the
signature might be nice.

> >     10e  Does not let the user indicate which part to followup to
> 
> This is something Gravity does, and in general a good idea.  It migth
> make less sense for Gnus.  However, I think it would be nice if
> quoting would be restricted to the currently region in the messsage
> being quoted, iff `transient-message-mode' is on, and the region is
> active.

Hm.  Perhaps, but I can't really see this being used much.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[Russ Allbery]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

>> I found this in the config file.

>> ##  Maximum size of a single header.
>> #### =()<MAXHEADERSIZE          @<MAXHEADERSIZE>@>()=
>> MAXHEADERSIZE           1024

> Hm.  Is this the default?  If so, I think Gnus should just go back to
> folding the header.

Yup, that's the default.  And yes, that would be my preference as well.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Hm.  Is this the default?  If so, I think Gnus should just go back to
> folding the header.

Please do.  Or, see my proposal in "References again" thread.

-- 
Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia
--------------------------------+--------------------------------
`VI' - An editor used by those heretics that don't subscribe to
       the Emacs religion.

PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Per Abrahamsen]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Providing an alternative to `message-cite-original' that removes the
> signature might be nice.

Here is a patch to `message-cite-original' which simply doesn't quote
the signature.  I think that in the rare cases where the user *want*
to quote the signature, he can just cut and paste it manually.

1998-01-13  Per Abrahamsen  <abraham@dina.kvl.dk>

	* gnus/message.el (message-cite-original): Don't quote signature.

cd /pack/emacs-20/share/emacs/20.2/lisp/gnus/
diff -c message.el~ message.el
*** message.el~	Fri Sep  5 08:12:49 1997
--- message.el	Tue Jan 13 16:56:11 1998
***************
*** 1598,1608 ****
--- 1598,1612 ----
  (defun message-cite-original ()
    "Cite function in the standard Message manner."
    (let ((start (point))
+ 	(end (mark t))
  	(functions
  	 (when message-indent-citation-function
  	   (if (listp message-indent-citation-function)
  	       message-indent-citation-function
  	     (list message-indent-citation-function)))))
+     (goto-char end)
+     (when (re-search-backward "^-- $" start t)
+       (delete-region (point) end))
      (goto-char start)
      (while functions
        (funcall (pop functions)))

Compilation exited abnormally with code 1 at Tue Jan 13 16:57:05

Re: PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Kim-Minh Kaplan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 463 bytes --]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> Here is a patch to `message-cite-original' which simply doesn't quote
> the signature.  I think that in the rare cases where the user *want*
> to quote the signature, he can just cut and paste it manually.

Gnus can put the quoted signature in the kill ring.  Then pasting is
really easy.

Hmm, may be an empty kill should be added even when there is no
signature for consistency...  What do you think ?

Kim-Minh.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 1041 bytes --]

--- /usr/local/lib/xemacs/gnus/lisp/message.el	Tue Jan  6 07:48:40 1998
+++ /usr/tmp/message.el	Thu Jan 15 00:47:04 1998
@@ -1690,18 +1690,26 @@
 (defun message-cite-original ()
   "Cite function in the standard Message manner."
   (let ((start (point))
+	(end (mark t))
+	sig-start
 	(functions
 	 (when message-indent-citation-function
 	   (if (listp message-indent-citation-function)
 	       message-indent-citation-function
 	     (list message-indent-citation-function)))))
+    (goto-char end)
+    (when (re-search-backward "^-- $" start t)
+      (setq sig-start (point-marker)))
     (goto-char start)
     (while functions
       (funcall (pop functions)))
     (when message-citation-line-function
       (unless (bolp)
 	(insert "\n"))
-      (funcall message-citation-line-function))))
+      (funcall message-citation-line-function))
+    (when sig-start
+      (kill-region sig-start (mark t))
+      (set-marker sig-start nil))))
 
 (defun message-insert-citation-line ()
   "Function that inserts a simple citation line."

Re: PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Kim-Minh Kaplan <KimMinh.Kaplan@utopia.eunet.fr> writes:

> Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
> 
> > Here is a patch to `message-cite-original' which simply doesn't quote
> > the signature.  I think that in the rare cases where the user *want*
> > to quote the signature, he can just cut and paste it manually.
> 
> Gnus can put the quoted signature in the kill ring.

I don't think it's a good idea to push things to the kill ring without 
user being aware of them.  The fact that someone might once want to
quote the signature too is not a good reason to cruft the kill-ring
with quoted sigs.

-- 
Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia
--------------------------------+--------------------------------
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct,
not tried it."                                    -- Donald Knuth

Re: PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Stig Sandbeck Mathisen]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> I don't think it's a good idea to push things to the kill ring without 
> user being aware of them.  The fact that someone might once want to
> quote the signature too is not a good reason to cruft the kill-ring
> with quoted sigs.

Why not just make it a possibility for the user to set a variable to
t, nil or ask (or something), so the user can decide for himself if he
wants the sig or not in the reply?

-- 
 SSM - Stig Sandbeck Mathisen
  Trust the Computer, the Computer is your Friend

Re: PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Per Abrahamsen]

Stig Sandbeck Mathisen <ssm@online.no> writes:

> Why not just make it a possibility for the user to set a variable to
> t, nil or ask (or something), so the user can decide for himself if he
> wants the sig or not in the reply?

Because there are already too many options.  There is already a
perfectly good way to quote the signature in the rare cases you would
want that, namely manual cut and paste from the article buffer.  Why
introduce another?

Re: PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Lars Balker Rasmussen]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
> Because there are already too many options.  There is already a
> perfectly good way to quote the signature in the rare cases you would
> want that, namely manual cut and paste from the article buffer.  Why
> introduce another?

Because it's not quoted when cut'n'pasted.  Besides, you can never get
too many options.
-- 
Lars Balker Rasmussen, Software Engineer, Mjolner Informatics ApS
lbr@mjolner.dk

Re: PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Per Abrahamsen]

Lars Balker Rasmussen <lbr@mjolner.dk> writes:

> Because it's not quoted when cut'n'pasted.  

Sure it is.

> Besides, you can never get too many options.

Yes you can.  Its already pretty hard to find something in the Gnus
manual or the customization hierarchy.

> -- 
> Lars Balker Rasmussen, Software Engineer, Mjolner Informatics ApS
> lbr@mjolner.dk

Cut-and-pasted from the article buffer, quotation characters inserted
manually. 

Re: PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Lars Balker Rasmussen]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
> Lars Balker Rasmussen <lbr@mjolner.dk> writes:
> > Because it's not quoted when cut'n'pasted.  
> 
> Sure it is.

Not automagically, which is what we were discussing?

> > Besides, you can never get too many options.
> 
> Yes you can.  Its already pretty hard to find something in the Gnus
> manual or the customization hierarchy.

That seems to be the spirit of Emacs...
-- 
Lars Balker Rasmussen, Software Engineer, Mjolner Informatics ApS
lbr@mjolner.dk

Re: PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Per Abrahamsen]

Lars Balker Rasmussen <lbr@mjolner.dk> writes:

> Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
> > Lars Balker Rasmussen <lbr@mjolner.dk> writes:
> > > Because it's not quoted when cut'n'pasted.  
> > 
> > Sure it is.
> 
> Not automagically, which is what we were discussing?

No, I say you can do it manually, which is sufficient for the rare
times you need to do it.

> > > Besides, you can never get too many options.
> > 
> > Yes you can.  Its already pretty hard to find something in the Gnus
> > manual or the customization hierarchy.
> 
> That seems to be the spirit of Emacs...

Perhaps.  But RMS agrees with me, he requered a good reason before
adding a new option.  I don't know the position of SLB.

Re: PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Kim-Minh Kaplan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 857 bytes --]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> Kim-Minh Kaplan <KimMinh.Kaplan@utopia.eunet.fr> writes:
> 
> > Gnus can put the quoted signature in the kill ring.
> 
> I don't think it's a good idea to push things to the kill ring without 
> user being aware of them.

Hmm, I get your point.  But if we don't do something, to cite a
signature one has to do:

    C-x b * A r t i c l e * RET M-> C-u C-r ^ - - SPC RET C-> M-w 
    C-x b RET C-y C-x C-x C-x r t > SPC RET

Ugly !  And it may be even worse if you have a different citation leader.

The attached code will provide `message-yank-cited-signatures' to
fetch the quoted signature.

> "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct,
> not tried it."                                    -- Donald Knuth

Well...  Beware of features in the code below: I have only tried it :-)

Kim-Minh.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 2375 bytes --]

--- /usr/local/lib/xemacs/gnus/lisp/message.el	Tue Jan  6 07:48:40 1998
+++ /usr/tmp/message.el	Sun Jan 18 14:01:10 1998
@@ -814,6 +814,7 @@
 (defvar message-this-is-news nil)
 (defvar message-this-is-mail nil)
 (defvar message-draft-article nil)
+(defvar message-cite-signatures nil)
 
 ;; Byte-compiler warning
 (defvar gnus-active-hashtb)
@@ -1170,6 +1171,7 @@
   (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-n" 'message-insert-newsgroups)
 
   (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-y" 'message-yank-original)
+  (define-key message-mode-map "\C-cy" 'message-yank-cited-signatures)
   (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-q" 'message-fill-yanked-message)
   (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-w" 'message-insert-signature)
   (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-r" 'message-caesar-buffer-body)
@@ -1689,24 +1691,43 @@
 
 (defun message-cite-original ()
   "Cite function in the standard Message manner."
+ (unless (local-variable-p 'message-cite-signatures (current-buffer))
+   (make-local-variable 'message-cite-signatures)
+   (setq message-cite-signatures nil))
   (let ((start (point))
+	(end (mark t))
+	sig-start
 	(functions
 	 (when message-indent-citation-function
 	   (if (listp message-indent-citation-function)
 	       message-indent-citation-function
 	     (list message-indent-citation-function)))))
+    (goto-char end)
+    (when (re-search-backward "^-- $" start t)
+      (setq sig-start (point-marker)))
     (goto-char start)
     (while functions
       (funcall (pop functions)))
     (when message-citation-line-function
       (unless (bolp)
 	(insert "\n"))
-      (funcall message-citation-line-function))))
+      (funcall message-citation-line-function))
+    (when sig-start
+      (setq message-cite-signatures
+	    (append message-cite-signatures
+		    (list (buffer-substring sig-start (mark t)))))
+      (delete-region sig-start (mark t))
+      (set-marker sig-start nil))))
 
 (defun message-insert-citation-line ()
   "Function that inserts a simple citation line."
   (when message-reply-headers
     (insert (mail-header-from message-reply-headers) " writes:\n\n")))
+
+(defun message-yank-cited-signatures ()
+  "Insert quoted signatures that where elided by the citation function."
+  (interactive)
+  (mapc 'insert message-cite-signatures))
 
 (defun message-position-on-field (header &rest afters)
   (let ((case-fold-search t))

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes:

> > Hm.  Is this the default?  If so, I think Gnus should just go back to
> > folding the header.
> 
> Yup, that's the default.  And yes, that would be my preference as well.

I've now switched back again to folding.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: PATCH: Don't quote signature (was: Re: GNKSA and Gnus)

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> > Providing an alternative to `message-cite-original' that removes the
> > signature might be nice.
> 
> Here is a patch to `message-cite-original' which simply doesn't quote
> the signature.  I think that in the rare cases where the user *want*
> to quote the signature, he can just cut and paste it manually.

The main problem is, I think, when responding to articles that are
malformed; that have a signature delimiter before the body.  So I've
just added this as a new function,
`message-cite-original-without-signature' that users may use if they
want, but I won't make it the default.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[Russ Allbery]

John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> writes:

> All of the 'Soft' requirement are features which while considered very
> good and useful and guides the user into correct behavior, may not be
> appropriate for all users or newsreaders.  For instance if most of your
> time on the net was spent in alt.fan.warlord this wouldn't be a very
> good feature for you.

I've been thinking this over, and I believe the reason why I was objecting
to this before was largely due to a misconception of the point of Soft
features.  It's one that would seem to be cleared up by adding another
level; there are many Soft features that I would consider to be
appropriate in all circumstances, and then there are many that I think
should be decidedly optional and which some newsreaders would have no
interest whatsoever in implementing (for legitimate reasons).

Making that division more apparent may be helpful.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[Lars Balker Rasmussen]

John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> writes:
> It's going to have to either require or allow it to be truncated at some 
> point - otherwise you'll have references lines that grow infinitely long. 
>  I know of several threads that are more than a year old - I hate to 
> think how long they would be if software didn't truncate the header.

Good argument.  However, it also shoots down the definition in
son-of-1036, where some IDs are sacred.  In a year-long thread it's easy
to imagine the first, the latest and all IDs with _-_ in them to be more
than 1000 chars long.  Then what ID should be cut?
-- 
Lars Balker Rasmussen, Software Engineer, Mjolner Informatics ApS
lbr@mjolner.dk

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[John Moreno]

Russ Allbery wrote:

>Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
>
>> I often have to manually edit the references line when posting followups
>> in gnu.misc.discuss in order to make INN accept it.  I guess it happens
>> in gnu.misc.discuss because
>
>> 1) The threads there are very deep.
>> 2) There are a high fraction of Gnus users, thus none of the posters
>>    software will restrict the header.
>
>I stand corrected.
>
>> ##  Maximum size of a single header.
>> #### =()<MAXHEADERSIZE          @<MAXHEADERSIZE>@>()=
>> MAXHEADERSIZE           1024
>
>I believe this only affects headers which are not continued.  If one uses
>continuation lines, headers can be much larger.  (Or that at least is my
>understanding.)  Keep in mind that the version of Gnus that I'm using
>still wraps References using continuation lines; I think Lars took that
>out at some point?
>
>It sounds like either the header wrapping code needs to be put back in or
>Gnus needs to shorten the Reference headers it generates, in the short
>term.  In the long term, I expect the new news RFC to require References
>headers not be truncated.

It's going to have to either require or allow it to be truncated at some 
point - otherwise you'll have references lines that grow infinitely long. 
 I know of several threads that are more than a year old - I hate to 
think how long they would be if software didn't truncate the header.

Approximately 1k REALLY is the current expected behavior.  And if 
newsreaders don't do it, servers and users will.  It is also a attempt to 
make the standard larger than what might otherwise be settled upon - 
after all assuming that all of the articles are there threading can take 
place with just one, and if articles are missing keeping only 5 or 6 back 
references is enough for normal situations.  And I can't count the number 
of users (most using TIN) who I've chided for deleting it entirely - I 
end up telling them that since they feel they must cut it, to at least 
leave in the last reference.  Unfortunately I often get the reply that it 
is simply easier to cut it all out than to try to edit it.

-- 
John Moreno

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[Robert Bihlmeyer]

Hi,

>>>>> On 04 Jan 1998 15:58:05 -0800
>>>>> Matt Simmons <simmonmt@acm.org> said:

 Matt> I can't be the only one who finds it weird to be reading a
 Matt> debate about the proper way to form References headers in which
 Matt> the GNKSA is complaining about Gnus' method using an MUA that
 Matt> apparently disregards References headers entirely.

You're not. But we gnusheads sometime forget, that some people still
use mail readers (feh) to read mail. Apperently, Claris emailer can't
dig references.

	Robbe

-- 
Robert Bihlmeyer	reads: Deutsch, English, MIME, Latin-1, NO SPAM!
<robbe@orcus.priv.at>	<http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426626/sig.html>

Re: GNKSA and Gnus

[Matt Simmons]

I can't be the only one who finds it weird to be reading a debate
about the proper way to form References headers in which the GNKSA is
complaining about Gnus' method using an MUA that apparently disregards 
References headers entirely.

Hmm.

Matt

-- 
     Matt Simmons  -  simmonmt@acm.org  -  http://www.netcom.com/~simmonmt
    Originality is the fine art of remembering what you hear but forgetting
	    where you heard it.  --Laurence Peter.  Canadian writer