* "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? @ 2002-04-06 22:26 Ken Raeburn 2002-04-07 0:42 ` Sean Neakums 2002-04-08 10:58 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Ken Raeburn @ 2002-04-06 22:26 UTC (permalink / raw) http://home.cnet.com/software/0-8888-8-9161160-1.html Actually, it's a combination of email client and IM client and personal information manager, but existing Emacs packages should provide most of the functionality, even if it's not the easiest to configure. Anyone want to try to get Emacs and Gnus in the (ahem) news? Give them what they want, and make it easy enough for Mom to use... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-06 22:26 "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? Ken Raeburn @ 2002-04-07 0:42 ` Sean Neakums 2002-04-07 0:48 ` Sean Neakums 2002-04-08 10:58 ` Per Abrahamsen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Sean Neakums @ 2002-04-07 0:42 UTC (permalink / raw) commence Ken Raeburn quotation: > Anyone want to try to get Emacs and Gnus in the (ahem) news? No. -- ///////////////// | | The spark of a pin <sneakums@zork.net> | (require 'gnu) | dropping, falling feather-like. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ | | There is too much noise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-07 0:42 ` Sean Neakums @ 2002-04-07 0:48 ` Sean Neakums 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Sean Neakums @ 2002-04-07 0:48 UTC (permalink / raw) commence Sean Neakums quotation: > commence Ken Raeburn quotation: > >> Anyone want to try to get Emacs and Gnus in the (ahem) news? > > No. Please ignore this; I thought I was reading another (less mannerly) mailing list at the time. -- ///////////////// | | The spark of a pin <sneakums@zork.net> | (require 'gnu) | dropping, falling feather-like. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ | | There is too much noise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-06 22:26 "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? Ken Raeburn 2002-04-07 0:42 ` Sean Neakums @ 2002-04-08 10:58 ` Per Abrahamsen 2002-04-08 12:09 ` Simon Josefsson ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2002-04-08 10:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Ken Raeburn <raeburn@raeburn.org> writes: > http://home.cnet.com/software/0-8888-8-9161160-1.html I did read it. I do not think that what they want would make sense to implement in Emacs, they are clearly targetting a completely different market. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-08 10:58 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 2002-04-08 12:09 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-04-08 15:28 ` Wes Hardaker 2002-04-08 17:54 ` Ken Raeburn 2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2002-04-08 12:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Ken Raeburn, ding On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Per Abrahamsen wrote: > Ken Raeburn <raeburn@raeburn.org> writes: > > > http://home.cnet.com/software/0-8888-8-9161160-1.html > > I did read it. I do not think that what they want would make sense to > implement in Emacs, they are clearly targetting a completely different > market. I didn't read it, but in theory I don't see a conflict between eye candy and user friendlyness and the amount of customizations possible in Gnus. In essence, I don't see why Gnus can't fit everyone. Emacsen seem to have GTK soon, and then Gnus could use all those colors and bitmaps and multimedia wizards and transperancy and themes and ripple effects and sound effects that everyone absolutely needs. The problem with user friendlyness in applications generally is that they are implemented poorly. Gnus can do better. It can be user friendly AND expert friendly. In practice there is the problem of finding someone who wants to implement though.. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-08 10:58 ` Per Abrahamsen 2002-04-08 12:09 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2002-04-08 15:28 ` Wes Hardaker 2002-04-08 16:54 ` Per Abrahamsen 2002-04-08 17:54 ` Ken Raeburn 2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Wes Hardaker @ 2002-04-08 15:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Ken Raeburn, ding >>>>> On Mon, 08 Apr 2002 12:58:54 +0200, Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> said: Per> I do not think that what they want would make sense to implement Per> in Emacs Oh, yeah, like *that's* every stopped anyone before. -- "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." -- Terry Pratchett ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-08 15:28 ` Wes Hardaker @ 2002-04-08 16:54 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2002-04-08 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Ken Raeburn, ding Wes Hardaker <wes@hardakers.net> writes: >>>>>> On Mon, 08 Apr 2002 12:58:54 +0200, Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> said: > > Per> I do not think that what they want would make sense to implement > Per> in Emacs > > Oh, yeah, like *that's* every stopped anyone before. You should read the article, it is very much about GUI details, like "this icon should be placed below that divider line". Emacs already has most (all?) of the functionality mentioned. While these features could be presented better, they should be presented in a way that make sense within an Emacs framework. Not in a way that would make sense within Outlook, as the article want. While there have been some attempt to copy user interface from MS Windows applications, they all suck. We should copy the features from MS Windows, and reinvent the UI in a way that make them integrate nicely within the rest of Emacs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-08 10:58 ` Per Abrahamsen 2002-04-08 12:09 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-04-08 15:28 ` Wes Hardaker @ 2002-04-08 17:54 ` Ken Raeburn 2002-04-08 22:51 ` news 2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Ken Raeburn @ 2002-04-08 17:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > I did read it. I do not think that what they want would make sense to > implement in Emacs, they are clearly targetting a completely different > market. Well, they certainly aren't targeting UNIX computer geeks who enjoy spending hours fiddling with their tools to get them to do exactly what they want (or anything remotely close to it), who don't mind huge sets of key bindings that take forever to learn, and who like figuring out for themselves how to get different tools to work together, no. But I don't think Emacs should target them exclusively, either. I know, I'm generalizing. We've got some Windows and OS/2 geeks in our midst, too. :-) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > I didn't read it, but in theory I don't see a conflict between eye candy > and user friendlyness and the amount of customizations possible in Gnus. > In essence, I don't see why Gnus can't fit everyone. Emacsen seem to have > GTK soon, and then Gnus could use all those colors and bitmaps and > multimedia wizards and transperancy and themes and ripple effects and > sound effects that everyone absolutely needs. I think a bunch of the specific visual details are beside the point, and as Gnus developers we can ignore the standalone PIM stuff, but some of the general ideas may be useful. Template responses to email (basically form letters) are a good idea (maybe not for me, but for some people). New email notification slightly more discriminating than "you have mail". A simple UI for "always file this email address [or subject] in folder X" rather than pulling up an editor on a text buffer in some obscure (to Mom) format. Displaying contact info from BBDB when the user moves the mouse over an email address. Putting "reply to message X" in your to-do list to come back to later. > The problem with user friendlyness in applications generally is that they > are implemented poorly. Gnus can do better. It can be user friendly AND > expert friendly. > > In practice there is the problem of finding someone who wants to implement > though.. Actually, I think an equally tough problem is finding someone with half a clue *how* to do that. Some random writers at CNET are probably just as good at the "user friendly" side of it as many of us are, if not better. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-08 17:54 ` Ken Raeburn @ 2002-04-08 22:51 ` news 2002-04-09 17:40 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: news @ 2002-04-08 22:51 UTC (permalink / raw) Ken Raeburn <raeburn@raeburn.org> writes: > Well, they certainly aren't targeting UNIX computer geeks who enjoy > spending hours fiddling with their tools to get them to do exactly > what they want (or anything remotely close to it), who don't mind huge > sets of key bindings that take forever to learn, and who like figuring > out for themselves how to get different tools to work together, no. > But I don't think Emacs should target them exclusively, either. I understand your point. Don't underestimate, though, the time and money corporations spend when they adopt a new email or PIM client. People will typically go to a 4-8 hour training class in a short window before or after the rollout. The MS UI and feature sets cannot be understood by *most* people without taking time to learn. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future insurance companies give a discount on rates to companies that pull the mice off the machines, and have *exclusively* keystroke controlled software. This would reduce RSI. Sure, emacs without any training is impossible, but given its feature set, maybe with color-themes, emacro and training it's attractive. I think what is outstanding is that emacs has many of the features *today* that those authors would like to see *tomorrow*. > I think a bunch of the specific visual details are beside the point, > and as Gnus developers we can ignore the standalone PIM stuff, but But PIM is rarely standalone in new email/notes/collaboration systems now. The target, as the article mentions, is to integrate them. Emacs has this capability, in the scenario of emacs + gnus + bbdb with private newsgroups on a collaboration server running inn. > some of the general ideas may be useful. Template responses to email > (basically form letters) are a good idea (maybe not for me, but for > some people). New email notification slightly more discriminating Many of us are using skeletons now, and maybe some have bbdb hooked into that use, but I don't yet. > than "you have mail". A simple UI for "always file this email address > [or subject] in folder X" rather than pulling up an editor on a text emacs + Mew can do this without *any* UI right now. I bet the creation of splitting rules for gnus will improve with time, too. Mew also automatically verifies pgp keys and snarfs new ones, which is a feature on the CNET wishlist. I think some folks are using a bbdb field to set the email correspondence privacy level on a person by person basis, too. > buffer in some obscure (to Mom) format. Displaying contact info from > BBDB when the user moves the mouse over an email address. Putting Emacs + bbdb doesn't have mouseover, but maybe these CNET authors need to see the behavior of (setq bbdb-view-pop-up t), which is quite similar. > "reply to message X" in your to-do list to come back to later. Maybe someone has done this with a mail client and the to-do function in bbdb-records. I do a similar contact management function with mew + bbdb + records using a special field in the bbdb record rather than the records-mode record. I also use emacs to dial voice calls to respond to email I'm reading. > Some random writers at CNET are > probably just as good at the "user friendly" side of it as many of us > are, if not better. I think it was a good article, and a kind of requirements document for a mail client. I didn't quite understand their vision for document sharing though. Did anyone else? Some unanswered questions I have are about IM and emacs, and if anyone is using it in emacs the way those authors have described. The article doesn't mention ldap, but that will be a more common way to recognize people in the email client, and I know we have eudc. Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-08 22:51 ` news @ 2002-04-09 17:40 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-04-10 15:19 ` news 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2002-04-09 17:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding (Chris Beggy ) news@kippona.com writes: > But PIM is rarely standalone in new email/notes/collaboration > systems now. The target, as the article mentions, is to > integrate them. Emacs has this capability, in the scenario > of emacs + gnus + bbdb with private newsgroups on a collaboration > server running inn. We are using an IMAP server with shared folders. Works very nicely. If you agree on some protocol, you can even do todo lists in such shared folders. We put "[TODO]" in the subject line of todo items and we tick the items that are not done. When somebody signs up for an item, he removes that tick and makes a followup with "[TODO Kai]" (or similar) in the subject. Tick marks on "[TODO Kai]" messages should only be frobbed by Kai. kai -- Silence is foo! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-09 17:40 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2002-04-10 15:19 ` news 2002-04-10 17:32 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: news @ 2002-04-10 15:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > We are using an IMAP server with shared folders. Works very nicely. > > If you agree on some protocol, you can even do todo lists in such > shared folders. We put "[TODO]" in the subject line of todo items and > we tick the items that are not done. When somebody signs up for an > item, he removes that tick and makes a followup with "[TODO Kai]" (or > similar) in the subject. Tick marks on "[TODO Kai]" messages should > only be frobbed by Kai. Thanks, I like hearing about how people are using these flexible tools. So I think tick is ! (bang). Then the item stays in the [TODO] thread until it is completed, at which point the tick is removed, and the item can expire. Does the !(bang) mark all of the way back to the IMAP server, not just in gnus? Is that right? Then do you expire(expunge) it from the IMAP server as well, or just from everyone's gnus? Do you preserve it on the server as a record of what has been done? I haven't shared IMAP folders before, but I use IMAP/nnimap. I guess I could experiment right now... Well, I'll send this post first. Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? 2002-04-10 15:19 ` news @ 2002-04-10 17:32 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2002-04-10 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding (Chris Beggy ) news@kippona.com writes: > So I think tick is ! (bang). Then the item stays in the [TODO] > thread until it is completed, at which point the tick is removed, > and the item can expire. Does the !(bang) mark all of the way > back to the IMAP server, not just in gnus? > > Is that right? Mostly. See below. > Then do you expire(expunge) it from the IMAP server as well, or just > from everyone's gnus? Do you preserve it on the server as a record > of what has been done? I haven't shared IMAP folders before, but I > use IMAP/nnimap. We mark the message as read, and since we are NOT using total-expire, this means that it is kept on the server. Also, we are using Cyrus (in an old version) where all marks (except the read mark) are global across all users. In particular, the tick mark is across all users. I am using the following kludge to make the dormant mark be local to each user: (setq nnimap-importantize-dormant nil) (setcdr (assq 'dormant nnimap-mark-to-flag-alist) (format "gnus-dormant-%s" (user-login-name))) (setcdr (assq 'dormant nnimap-mark-to-predicate-alist) (format "KEYWORD gnus-dormant-%s" (user-login-name))) Whee. I think that Cyrus 2.x allows me to specify which marks should be per-user marks. So I wonder how to migrate this hack to the new version :-{ Any ideas? Anyone? kai -- Silence is foo! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-04-10 17:32 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2002-04-06 22:26 "CNET imagines the perfect e-mail client" - can Emacs be it? Ken Raeburn 2002-04-07 0:42 ` Sean Neakums 2002-04-07 0:48 ` Sean Neakums 2002-04-08 10:58 ` Per Abrahamsen 2002-04-08 12:09 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-04-08 15:28 ` Wes Hardaker 2002-04-08 16:54 ` Per Abrahamsen 2002-04-08 17:54 ` Ken Raeburn 2002-04-08 22:51 ` news 2002-04-09 17:40 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-04-10 15:19 ` news 2002-04-10 17:32 ` Kai Großjohann
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