how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Greg Stark]

I'm not sure I understand what's going here, i think that if I have have:
gnus-save-killed-list		nil
gnus-check-new-newsgroups	'ask-server

then Gnus doesn't know about any killed groups so when i use `j' or `U' it
completes to just the groups I am subscribed to or are zombie groups.  I'm not
sure the value of check-new-newsgroups is relevant, but I think
save-killed-list is.  

I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is, setting save-killed-list
makes my 16k newsrc bloat to 221k.  I would prefer to have F or C-u F make
Gnus read the active file and after that have `j' and `U' and their ilk dtrt.

greg

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:

> I'm not sure I understand what's going here, i think that if I have have:
> gnus-save-killed-list		nil
> gnus-check-new-newsgroups	'ask-server
> 
> then Gnus doesn't know about any killed groups so when i use `j' or
> `U' it completes to just the groups I am subscribed to or are zombie
> groups.  I'm not sure the value of check-new-newsgroups is relevant,
> but I think save-killed-list is.

Well, the "solution" is to set `gnus-read-active-file' to t.  This
will make startup slower, though.

One way or another, Gnus has to know what groups are available.
Either it must save the list of killed groups, or it must read the
active file if you want to be able to do this sort of thing.

-- 
  "Yes.  The journey through the human heart 
     would have to wait until some other time."

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Patrick J. LoPresti]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "larsi" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

 larsi> gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:
 >> I'm not sure I understand what's going here, i think that if I
 >> have have: gnus-save-killed-list nil gnus-check-new-newsgroups
 >> 'ask-server
 >> 
 >> then Gnus doesn't know about any killed groups so when i use `j'
 >> or `U' it completes to just the groups I am subscribed to or are
 >> zombie groups.  I'm not sure the value of check-new-newsgroups is
 >> relevant, but I think save-killed-list is.

 larsi> Well, the "solution" is to set `gnus-read-active-file' to t.
 larsi> This will make startup slower, though.

 larsi> One way or another, Gnus has to know what groups are
 larsi> available.  Either it must save the list of killed groups, or
 larsi> it must read the active file if you want to be able to do this
 larsi> sort of thing.

Perhaps there should be a way to ask Gnus to read the active file
explicitly?  The only time I need the active file read is when
subscribing to new groups, which isn't very often.

Thanks!

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Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> ""Patrick" == "Patrick J LoPresti" <patl@eiffel.lcs.mit.edu> writes:

>>>>> "larsi" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

  larsi> gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:

  >>> I'm not sure I understand what's going here, i think that if I
  >>> have have: gnus-save-killed-list nil gnus-check-new-newsgroups
  >>> 'ask-server

  >>> then Gnus doesn't know about any killed groups so when i use `j'
  >>> or `U' it completes to just the groups I am subscribed to or are
  >>> zombie groups.  I'm not sure the value of check-new-newsgroups is
  >>> relevant, but I think save-killed-list is.

  larsi> Well, the "solution" is to set `gnus-read-active-file' to t.
  larsi> This will make startup slower, though.

  larsi> One way or another, Gnus has to know what groups are
  larsi> available.  Either it must save the list of killed groups, or
  larsi> it must read the active file if you want to be able to do this
  larsi> sort of thing.

  "Patrick> Perhaps there should be a way to ask Gnus to read the active file
  "Patrick> explicitly?  The only time I need the active file read is when
  "Patrick> subscribing to new groups, which isn't very often.

Maybe I don't understand what y'all are talking about, but here goes
anyway.

I've got gnus-check-new-newsgroups set to 'ask-server, 
gnus-save-killed-list to nil, and gnus-read-active-file to nil.

Gnus will ask the nntp server for new newsgroups (new groups are those
that have been created on your server between a specified time period
not new to your .newsrc) , and add those groups to the zombie list.
You can get the zombie by using `A z' this will get you new
newsgroups.  You can get the list of all killed groups by using 
`C-u A k', this will force gnus to read the active file.

I think the server needs to support the newgroups command for the
newgroups stuff to work.  Check by the following

telnet <newshost> nntp
help

You should see a command like 

  newgroups yymmdd hhmmss ["GMT"] [<distributions>]

Anyhow, that's how I do it, if I've totally missed the point, sorry.

Shane

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shane Holder         | e-mail: holder@convex.com
Convex Computer Corp | phone: (214)497-4182
3000 Waterview       | Ignorance isn't so bad, as long as it's not
Richardson, TX 75083 | accompanied by stupidity.

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Patrick J. LoPresti]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 holder> Maybe I don't understand what y'all are talking about, but
 holder> here goes anyway.

 holder> I've got gnus-check-new-newsgroups set to 'ask-server,
 holder> gnus-save-killed-list to nil, and gnus-read-active-file to
 holder> nil.

 holder> Gnus will ask the nntp server for new newsgroups (new groups
 holder> are those that have been created on your server between a
 holder> specified time period not new to your .newsrc) , and add
 holder> those groups to the zombie list.  You can get the zombie by
 holder> using `A z' this will get you new newsgroups.  You can get
 holder> the list of all killed groups by using `C-u A k', this will
 holder> force gnus to read the active file.

This doesn't happen for me, using Gnus 5.0.13.  Given the earlier
messages in this thread, I assumed the behavior had not changed...

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Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> ""Patrick" == "Patrick J LoPresti" <patl@eiffel.lcs.mit.edu> writes:

  "Patrick> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

  holder> Gnus will ask the nntp server for new newsgroups (new groups
  holder> are those that have been created on your server between a
  holder> specified time period not new to your .newsrc) , and add
  holder> those groups to the zombie list.  You can get the zombie by
  holder> using `A z' this will get you new newsgroups.  You can get
  holder> the list of all killed groups by using `C-u A k', this will
  holder> force gnus to read the active file.

  Patrick> This doesn't happen for me, using Gnus 5.0.13.  Given the earlier
  Patrick> messages in this thread, I assumed the behavior had not changed...

Ahh, there's the problem.  I noticed that `C-u A k' was broken in some
version of sgnus, and it was later fixed.  It's possible that it's
also broken in 5.x.x.  If you're willing, give sgnus a shot, it's
working fine for me.

You might even be able to replace the function gnus-group-list-killed
in 5.0.13 with the one in sgnus-0.40, but I wouldn't bet on it working.

Shane

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shane Holder         | e-mail: holder@convex.com
Convex Computer Corp | phone: (214)497-4182
3000 Waterview       | Ignorance isn't so bad, as long as it's not
Richardson, TX 75083 | accompanied by stupidity.

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

"Patrick J. LoPresti" <patl@eiffel.lcs.mit.edu> writes:

> Perhaps there should be a way to ask Gnus to read the active file
> explicitly?  The only time I need the active file read is when
> subscribing to new groups, which isn't very often.

Whether the active file is read at all depends on what your
`gnus-read-active-file' variable is.  If it is t, the active file is
read each time you press `g'.  

`C-u g' forces reading the active file no matter what that variable
is. 

-- 
  "Yes.  The journey through the human heart 
     would have to wait until some other time."

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Greg Stark]

>>>>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes:

> gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:

> Well, the "solution" is to set `gnus-read-active-file' to t.  This will make
> startup slower, though.

> One way or another, Gnus has to know what groups are available.  Either it
> must save the list of killed groups, or it must read the active file if you
> want to be able to do this sort of thing.

I currently have:
(setq gnus-read-active-file t)
(setq gnus-check-new-newsgroups '((nntp "news.mit.edu") (nnml "")))
(setq gnus-save-killed-list nil)

Commands like ``A m'' only list subscribed and unsuscribed groups.
No command seems to know about any killed groups.

greg

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:

> Commands like ``A m'' only list subscribed and unsuscribed groups.

`9 A m' should list all groups, dead or alive.

-- 
  "Yes.  The journey through the human heart 
     would have to wait until some other time."

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Greg Stark]

> > I currently have:
> > (setq gnus-read-active-file t)
> > (setq gnus-check-new-newsgroups '((nntp "news.mit.edu") (nnml "")))
> > (setq gnus-save-killed-list nil)
> > Commands like ``A m'' only list subscribed and unsuscribed groups.

> `9 A m' should list all groups, dead or alive.

nope, doesn't work.  I only get live groups.
I think A A lists everything, as does completing on commands like `U' and `j'

Ideally I would like to set gnus-read-active-file to 'some.  In that case I
would expect it to show only groups it has heard about;  but i would expect
some command to force it to read the active file (`F' maybe?) and subsequent
`A m' commands should work.

greg

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:

> > `9 A m' should list all groups, dead or alive.
> 
> nope, doesn't work.  I only get live groups.

> I think A A lists everything, as does completing on commands like
> `U' and `j' Ideally I would like to set gnus-read-active-file to
> 'some.  In that case I would expect it to show only groups it has
> heard about; but i would expect some command to force it to read the
> active file (`F' maybe?) and subsequent `A m' commands should work.

`C-u g' forces a reading of the entire active file, which will make
subsequent `A m' commands list more groups.

-- 
  "Yes.  The journey through the human heart 
     would have to wait until some other time."

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Greg Stark]

>>>>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes:
> gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:
> [...]> > `9 A m' should list all groups, dead or alive.
>>  nope, doesn't work.  I only get live groups.

> `C-u g' forces a reading of the entire active file, which will make
> subsequent `A m' commands list more groups.

Great, except that right now i still have gnus-read-active-file set to T and
commands like `A m' don't work, they don't work after C-u g either.

for example:
A m comp.lang
gives this *Group* buffer:
    4521 3: comp.lang.java 
    4090 3: comp.lang.c 


greg

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:

> > [...]> > `9 A m' should list all groups, dead or alive.
> >>  nope, doesn't work.  I only get live groups.
> 
> > `C-u g' forces a reading of the entire active file, which will make
> > subsequent `A m' commands list more groups.
> 
> Great, except that right now i still have gnus-read-active-file set to T and
> commands like `A m' don't work, they don't work after C-u g either.

That's `9 A m' or `9 A M'.  Just `A m' will list only subscribed
groups. 

-- 
  "Yes.  The journey through the human heart 
     would have to wait until some other time."

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Greg Stark]

9 A m doesn't work, it doesn't show any killed groups.

greg

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:

> 9 A m doesn't work, it doesn't show any killed groups.

That's true.  Should it list all active groups, though?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Thomas Neumann]

> 
> > 9 A m doesn't work, it doesn't show any killed groups.
> 
> That's true.  Should it list all active groups, though?


At 9 am almost nothing works, for that matter ;-)

-t

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Greg Stark]

> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes:
>> gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes: 
>> 9 A m doesn't work, it doesn't show any killed groups.
> That's true.  Should it list all active groups, though?

Well I would like to subscribe to a bunch of newsgroups; 
say i've taken a sudden interest in comp.lang newsgroups.  
I want to hit 9Amcomp.lang and then just subscribe and kill
groups as desired.  

Currently i can do that if I have some settings of -SAVE-KILLED 
and -READ-ACTIVE-FILE, but i don't know which combinations.  
And if it doesn't start with enough information, even commands
like -FIND-NEW-NEWSGROUPS won't make it start working.

This seems inconsistent and undesirable.  I admit doing LIST-ACTIVE seemed
really slow, i guess active-file parsing is one place to look for speed
optimizations.


greg

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:

> Well I would like to subscribe to a bunch of newsgroups; 
> say i've taken a sudden interest in comp.lang newsgroups.  
> I want to hit 9Amcomp.lang and then just subscribe and kill
> groups as desired.  
> 
> Currently i can do that if I have some settings of -SAVE-KILLED 
> and -READ-ACTIVE-FILE, but i don't know which combinations.  
> And if it doesn't start with enough information, even commands
> like -FIND-NEW-NEWSGROUPS won't make it start working.
> 
> This seems inconsistent and undesirable.  I admit doing LIST-ACTIVE seemed
> really slow, i guess active-file parsing is one place to look for speed
> optimizations.

No, parsing the active file is quite fast.  Reading it is *slow*; it's
typically ~300kb long.  

`A m' lists groups on various levels, and groups that aren't
subscribed, zombies, killed or unsubscribed aren't on any levels.
Perhaps we should add a level 10 for these groups?  `1 0 A m' would
then work as one would suppose.

On the other hand, one could just add a regexp parameter to
`gnus-group-list-active' -- `A A'.  `C-u A A comp.lang RET' would then
do the trick.  I've added this to the Red Gnus todo list.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Greg Stark]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

> gsstark@MIT.EDU (Greg Stark) writes:
> > Well I would like to subscribe to a bunch of newsgroups; 
> > say i've taken a sudden interest in comp.lang newsgroups.  
> > I want to hit 9Amcomp.lang and then just subscribe and kill
> > groups as desired.  
> 
> `A m' lists groups on various levels, and groups that aren't
> subscribed, zombies, killed or unsubscribed aren't on any levels.
> Perhaps we should add a level 10 for these groups?  `1 0 A m' would
> then work as one would suppose.

well, i don't think it would be worthwhile having zombie groups,
killed groups, and not alive groups.  I think once Gnus knows about these
groups they should be thrown into the killed list.  Gnus should know about
them after i use `F' or if i have read-active set to t

Incidentally it seems to me like the semantics of F are backwards. it should
use the values of gnus-check-new-newsgroups and gnus-read-active-file unless i
tell it with a C-u to do it the long way reading the active file. 

greg

Re: how do you subscribe to new groups if I don't save-killed

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Greg Stark <gsstark@fierce-bad-rabbit.MIT.EDU> writes:

> well, i don't think it would be worthwhile having zombie groups,
> killed groups, and not alive groups.  I think once Gnus knows about these
> groups they should be thrown into the killed list. 

I agree in principle.  The only thing is that Gnus typically knows
about 10k groups.  Building a 10k element list at the drop of a hat is
not something that you want to see Gnus do.  (Gross bloatage and it
would be much too slow.)

> Incidentally it seems to me like the semantics of F are
> backwards. it should use the values of gnus-check-new-newsgroups and
> gnus-read-active-file unless i tell it with a C-u to do it the long
> way reading the active file.

Well, I think that when people push `F', they generally really want to
get all possible new files.  `C-u F' is a more lightweight version of
the same.  Seems natural to me, even though it works the opposite way
compared with, uhm, comparable functions.

-- 
  "Yes.  The journey through the human heart 
     would have to wait until some other time."