on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Robert Girault]

How can I 
   
  gnus-summary-insert-new-articles

automatically after posting?  I'd like to see my articles right away in
the thread without having to ``/ N'' every time I post.

I tried 

  (add-hook 'message-sent-hook 'gnus-summary-insert-new-articles)

but that blows a void-variable perm.  Investigating further, I see the
problem happens deep into gnus-thread-loop-p.  I cloned 

  gnus-summary-insert-new-articles

to take an argument, the group name.  Here's the attempt:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(defun gnus-summary-insert-new-articles-arg (g)
  "Insert all new articles in this group."
  (interactive)
  (let ((old (sort (mapcar 'car gnus-newsgroup-data) '<))
	(old-high gnus-newsgroup-highest)
	(nnmail-fetched-sources (list t))
	(new-active (gnus-activate-group g 'scan))
	i new)
    (unless new-active
      (error "Couldn't fetch new data"))
    (setq gnus-newsgroup-active (gnus-copy-sequence new-active))
    (setq i (cdr gnus-newsgroup-active)
	  gnus-newsgroup-highest i)
    (while (> i old-high)
      (push i new)
      (decf i))
    (if (not new)
	(message "No gnus is bad news")
      (gnus-summary-insert-articles new)
      (setq gnus-newsgroup-unreads
	    (gnus-sorted-nunion gnus-newsgroup-unreads new))
      (gnus-summary-limit (gnus-sorted-nunion old new))))
  (gnus-summary-position-point))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Now, executing 

  (gnus-summary-insert-new-articles-arg "alt.test") 

also blows the (void-variable perm) problem.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-variable perm)
  #[(refs) "\bJ@\203.

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:

> How can I 
>    
>   gnus-summary-insert-new-articles
>
> automatically after posting?  I'd like to see my articles right away in
> the thread without having to ``/ N'' every time I post.

I think what you want is to set the "display" group parameter. That
should be set to the number of articles you'd always like displayed by
default. It can take a few other values: see the "Group Parameters"
section of the manual.

Hope that helps,
Eric

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Robert Girault]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:
>
>> How can I 
>>    
>>   gnus-summary-insert-new-articles
>>
>> automatically after posting?  I'd like to see my articles right away in
>> the thread without having to ``/ N'' every time I post.
>
> I think what you want is to set the "display" group parameter. That
> should be set to the number of articles you'd always like displayed by
> default. It can take a few other values: see the "Group Parameters"
> section of the manual.

That is not precisely what I asked --- see below ---, although it was
good for me to learn about.  I've set display to all, so all unread
articles are displayed.  However, in groups where I've killfiled people,
they killed articles also show and I wish they wouldn't.

What I had asked is this.  After I post a message, I can say / N and see
the message (I just posted) attached to thread I followed up.  My wish
is to have this done automatically so I don't have to say / N.

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Winston]

Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:
> How can I 
>    
>   gnus-summary-insert-new-articles
>
> automatically after posting?  I'd like to see my articles right away in
> the thread without having to ``/ N'' every time I post.

I don't have an answer for the question you asked, but I'll point out
that, in theory, articles don't necessarily appear for reading instantly
after you post them.  Articles to a moderated group, for example, will
go to the moderator for approval.  Articles to unmoderated groups may be
subject to input filtering, throttling, indexing for overviews, etc.,
such that the faster you re-check for new articles, the less likely you
are to find your new one.  You could work around the latter issue a bit
if you can do "sleep N sec, check".
 -WBE

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> writes:

> Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:
>> How can I 
>>    
>>   gnus-summary-insert-new-articles
>>
>> automatically after posting?  I'd like to see my articles right away in
>> the thread without having to ``/ N'' every time I post.

Oh I see, I had indeed misunderstood your question.

> I don't have an answer for the question you asked, but I'll point out
> that, in theory, articles don't necessarily appear for reading instantly
> after you post them.  Articles to a moderated group, for example, will
> go to the moderator for approval.  Articles to unmoderated groups may be
> subject to input filtering, throttling, indexing for overviews, etc.,
> such that the faster you re-check for new articles, the less likely you
> are to find your new one.  You could work around the latter issue a bit
> if you can do "sleep N sec, check".

Right: it's unknown when the message will actually appear. I can't think
of any better trick than a timer (or patience), but it might work better
to do "M-g" (rescan) rather than show old articles.

Eric

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Robert Girault]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> writes:
>
>> Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:
>>> How can I 
>>>    
>>>   gnus-summary-insert-new-articles
>>>
>>> automatically after posting?  I'd like to see my articles right away in
>>> the thread without having to ``/ N'' every time I post.
>
> Oh I see, I had indeed misunderstood your question.
>
>> I don't have an answer for the question you asked, but I'll point out
>> that, in theory, articles don't necessarily appear for reading instantly
>> after you post them.  Articles to a moderated group, for example, will
>> go to the moderator for approval.  Articles to unmoderated groups may be
>> subject to input filtering, throttling, indexing for overviews, etc.,
>> such that the faster you re-check for new articles, the less likely you
>> are to find your new one.  You could work around the latter issue a bit
>> if you can do "sleep N sec, check".
>
> Right: it's unknown when the message will actually appear. I can't think
> of any better trick than a timer (or patience), but it might work better
> to do "M-g" (rescan) rather than show old articles.

I didn't think very well about it.  I think I was having the impression
that, in the case of an article I posted myself, Gnus would insert the
article because it had a copy of it (since I wrote it).  (A hack.)  And,
in the case of articles coming from the server, it would add them
because it received them from the network.

This isn't impossible: when eventually my article comes from the
network, if it does, Gnus would replace it.  But this is undesirable
indeed.  If my article doesn't ever come, as well pointed out by
Winston, I should know.

This brings me to a point I've been trying to set up Gnus for.  I'd like
to keep, for a while, a history of everything I wrote.  Saving messages
locally isn't good enough because the context is gone.  The context is
the thread.

When I enter a group, I feel lost.  I think it's slrn that I've used in
the past.  When I'd enter a news group, I'd have a clear idea of what's
happening --- which threads are growing and which are not.

Also, my way of working is to write articles, but only post them after
I've reviewed them.  I haven't yet acquired skills enough to do that
with Gnus.

I know it's possible to save them as drafts and send them later, but I'd
like to distinguish between partially written messages from messages
queued for delivery.

I've read An Introduction to Emacs Lisp and I really liked it.  I wish
there was a book on Gnus.  I'm very grateful for the Gnus manual, but I
confess that, whenever I stop to read it, I try to make the things it
advertises happen, but I fail to do so a good number of the times.  So
I'm always thinking that I need some sort of education that I don't have
in order to read the manual properly.  Has anyone ever written a book on
Gnus?

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:

[...]

> This brings me to a point I've been trying to set up Gnus for. I'd like
> to keep, for a while, a history of everything I wrote. Saving messages
> locally isn't good enough because the context is gone. The context is
> the thread.
>
> When I enter a group, I feel lost. I think it's slrn that I've used in
> the past. When I'd enter a news group, I'd have a clear idea of what's
> happening---which threads are growing and which are not.

I looked up slrn, and interestingly the author seemed to have written it
because he found Gnus too slow!

I don't know how slrn does it, so I don't know exactly what effect
you're after. Are you using threading? I've got `gnus-show-threads' set
to t and `gnus-fetch-old-headers' set to 'some, and that shows me just
as much context as I want.

> Also, my way of working is to write articles, but only post them after
> I've reviewed them. I haven't yet acquired skills enough to do that
> with Gnus.
>
> I know it's possible to save them as drafts and send them later, but I'd
> like to distinguish between partially written messages from messages
> queued for delivery.

You can use the agent for this. When you're finished with a message, hit
"C-c C-j" (gnus-delay-article), and you can choose a future date at
which the message will send. It won't actually send at that date unless
you run the `gnus-delay-send-queue' command in the *Group* buffer. That
might do what you want, though I don't know how easy it is to edit
messages once you've added them to the queue.

> I've read An Introduction to Emacs Lisp and I really liked it. I wish
> there was a book on Gnus.  I'm very grateful for the Gnus manual, but I
> confess that, whenever I stop to read it, I try to make the things it
> advertises happen, but I fail to do so a good number of the times.  So
> I'm always thinking that I need some sort of education that I don't have
> in order to read the manual properly.  Has anyone ever written a book on
> Gnus?

Pretty sure not!

Eric

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Adam Sjøgren]

Eric writes:

> You can use the agent for this. When you're finished with a message, hit
> "C-c C-j" (gnus-delay-article), and you can choose a future date at
> which the message will send. It won't actually send at that date unless
> you run the `gnus-delay-send-queue' command in the *Group* buffer.

Isn't this functionality entirely independent of the agent?

I've never used the agent (as far as I know :-)), but use delayed
articles regularly.

> That might do what you want, though I don't know how easy it is to
> edit messages once you've added them to the queue.

It is as easy as editing drafts - you just need to remember try press
C-c C-j again if you don't want the article sent immediately, after
editing.


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "Examination and mastering of a new highly                   Adam Sjøgren
  intellectual equipment was a hard labour."             asjo@koldfront.dk


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Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:

> Eric writes:
>
>> You can use the agent for this. When you're finished with a message, hit
>> "C-c C-j" (gnus-delay-article), and you can choose a future date at
>> which the message will send. It won't actually send at that date unless
>> you run the `gnus-delay-send-queue' command in the *Group* buffer.
>
> Isn't this functionality entirely independent of the agent?
>
> I've never used the agent (as far as I know :-)), but use delayed
> articles regularly.

Huh, maybe you're right -- I think I was confusing the "queue" group,
which comes into play when Gnus is unplugged (which is a feature of the
agent) with the delay group.


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Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Adam Sjøgren]

Eric writes:

> Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:
>>
>> Isn't this functionality entirely independent of the agent?
>
> Huh, maybe you're right -- I think I was confusing the "queue" group,
> which comes into play when Gnus is unplugged (which is a feature of the
> agent) with the delay group.

Ahh, yes, I think you're right - they look very similar.


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "I think grown-ups just act like they know what              Adam Sjøgren
  they're doing."                                        asjo@koldfront.dk


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Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Adam Sjøgren]

Robert writes:

> This brings me to a point I've been trying to set up Gnus for.  I'd like
> to keep, for a while, a history of everything I wrote.  Saving messages
> locally isn't good enough because the context is gone.  The context is
> the thread.

When you read an article, you can fetch the thread with A T.

(I don't know if it is useful for your purpose, just thought I'd mention
it.)

> When I enter a group, I feel lost.  I think it's slrn that I've used in
> the past.  When I'd enter a news group, I'd have a clear idea of what's
> happening --- which threads are growing and which are not.

The "usual" way I handle this is to have Gnus not show articles I have
already read (i.e. the default). Then only articles listed are the new
ones. That makes it very clear what is new ;-) But you lose the context,
of course.

How did you get the clear idea with slrn?

> Also, my way of working is to write articles, but only post them after
> I've reviewed them.  I haven't yet acquired skills enough to do that
> with Gnus.
>
> I know it's possible to save them as drafts and send them later, but I'd
> like to distinguish between partially written messages from messages
> queued for delivery.

This might not be useful to you eiter, but you can queue messages for
sending later - they will be stored in a different group than drafts,
and automatically sent at the time you specifify (or after the interval
you specify).

I really like that feature - maybe it can be adapted for you purpose?

Details:

 · http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_36.html#Delayed-Articles


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "In summary, everything is terrible."                        Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk


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Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Winston]

Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:
> This brings me to a point I've been trying to set up Gnus for.  I'd like
> to keep, for a while, a history of everything I wrote.  ...

> When I enter a group, I feel lost.  I think it's slrn that I've used in
> the past.  When I'd enter a news group, I'd have a clear idea of what's
> happening --- which threads are growing and which are not.

Some adjustments you could try to see if they help:

(setq gnus-use-cross-reference t)
(setq gnus-thread-indent-level 2)
(setq gnus-thread-sort-functions '(gnus-thread-sort-by-subject))

I find that sorting threads by subject does a decent job of putting
related articles together, even when their original context is no longer
in the article summary.

Next, use Gnus article scoring to highlight articles you've posted and
replies to them:

* Increase score in all newsgroups on articles "From" you (<r@dev.null>)

and

* Increase score in all newsgroups on articles with "References" that
  include "fsf@dev.null>"

The easiest way to do that is usually to start by going to an article
you posted.

The scoring rules should end up in News/all.SCORE and (depending on what
you left in the string to match on) might look something like:

(("from"
  ("r@dev\\.null" 1000 nil r))
 ("references"
  ("\\.fsf@dev\\.null>" 1000 nil r))

[I'm not certain about the "\\." instead of just plain "." above, but I
think it's a regular expression and thus needs \. to prevent "." from
being the 1-char wild card.]

If you follow groups that are very active, setting a number-of-articles
limit such as

(setq gnus-large-newsgroup 400)

might also be helpful.  If there are more articles than the limit, you
get the choice of which (oldest or newest), and how many to view.

HTH,
 -WBE

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Robert Girault]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:
>
> [...]
>
>> This brings me to a point I've been trying to set up Gnus for. I'd like
>> to keep, for a while, a history of everything I wrote. Saving messages
>> locally isn't good enough because the context is gone. The context is
>> the thread.
>>
>> When I enter a group, I feel lost. I think it's slrn that I've used in
>> the past. When I'd enter a news group, I'd have a clear idea of what's
>> happening---which threads are growing and which are not.
>
> I looked up slrn, and interestingly the author seemed to have written it
> because he found Gnus too slow!

I can't compare it myself.  I run them on different systems.

> I don't know how slrn does it, so I don't know exactly what effect
> you're after. Are you using threading? I've got `gnus-show-threads' set
> to t and `gnus-fetch-old-headers' set to 'some, and that shows me just
> as much context as I want.

Surprisingly perhaps, I feel better without threading, so I turned it
off.  When I wanna see a parent message, I say ^.

>> Also, my way of working is to write articles, but only post them after
>> I've reviewed them. I haven't yet acquired skills enough to do that
>> with Gnus.
>>
>> I know it's possible to save them as drafts and send them later, but I'd
>> like to distinguish between partially written messages from messages
>> queued for delivery.
>
> You can use the agent for this. When you're finished with a message, hit
> "C-c C-j" (gnus-delay-article), and you can choose a future date at
> which the message will send. It won't actually send at that date unless
> you run the `gnus-delay-send-queue' command in the *Group* buffer. That
> might do what you want, though I don't know how easy it is to edit
> messages once you've added them to the queue.

The manual says it will send if I check for new messages, but I'm
thinking I must run gnus-delay-initialize.  I won't turn it on for now.

I'm getting there.  Thanks!

[...]

on continuing from where left off (Was: Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting)

[Robert Girault]

Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:

[...]

> Surprisingly perhaps, I feel better without threading, so I turned it
> off.  When I wanna see a parent message, I say ^.

I think what would make things easier for me is that whenever I reenter
a group, the point should be on the same position I left off.  So I
continue it from there.  Instead, the point seems to go to the first
unread article (or unread-or-unseen).

Is there a solution to this?

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> This brings me to a point I've been trying to set up Gnus for. I'd like
>>> to keep, for a while, a history of everything I wrote. Saving messages
>>> locally isn't good enough because the context is gone. The context is
>>> the thread.
>>>
>>> When I enter a group, I feel lost. I think it's slrn that I've used in
>>> the past. When I'd enter a news group, I'd have a clear idea of what's
>>> happening---which threads are growing and which are not.
>>
>> I looked up slrn, and interestingly the author seemed to have written it
>> because he found Gnus too slow!
>
> I can't compare it myself.  I run them on different systems.
>
>> I don't know how slrn does it, so I don't know exactly what effect
>> you're after. Are you using threading? I've got `gnus-show-threads' set
>> to t and `gnus-fetch-old-headers' set to 'some, and that shows me just
>> as much context as I want.
>
> Surprisingly perhaps, I feel better without threading, so I turned it
> off.  When I wanna see a parent message, I say ^.
>
>>> Also, my way of working is to write articles, but only post them after
>>> I've reviewed them. I haven't yet acquired skills enough to do that
>>> with Gnus.
>>>
>>> I know it's possible to save them as drafts and send them later, but I'd
>>> like to distinguish between partially written messages from messages
>>> queued for delivery.
>>
>> You can use the agent for this. When you're finished with a message, hit
>> "C-c C-j" (gnus-delay-article), and you can choose a future date at
>> which the message will send. It won't actually send at that date unless
>> you run the `gnus-delay-send-queue' command in the *Group* buffer. That
>> might do what you want, though I don't know how easy it is to edit
>> messages once you've added them to the queue.
>
> The manual says it will send if I check for new messages, but I'm
> thinking I must run gnus-delay-initialize.  I won't turn it on for now.

Oops, that's true, I'd forgotten that part.

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Robert Girault]

Robert Girault <r@dev.null> writes:

[...]

>> I don't know how slrn does it, so I don't know exactly what effect
>> you're after. Are you using threading? I've got `gnus-show-threads' set
>> to t and `gnus-fetch-old-headers' set to 'some, and that shows me just
>> as much context as I want.
>
> Surprisingly perhaps, I feel better without threading, so I turned it
> off.  When I wanna see a parent message, I say ^.

I should also add that I discovered the variable

  gnus-auto-select-name

which is interesting for non-threaded summaries.  It affects the
behavior of gnus-summary-next-unread-article.  If the variable is
non-nil, then the next selected article will have the same subject, if
any.  So you can follow a thread by jumping messages that belong to it.

Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Robert Girault]

Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:

[...]

> How did you get the clear idea with slrn?

I think the explanation to this psychology is that simpler is easier to
understand.  I haven't used slrn in a while so I hardly remember the
complaints I had there.  It's coming to me now that I could only edit
one article at a time there because slrn doesn't have the window
concept.  I had to draft an article, edit another.

>> Also, my way of working is to write articles, but only post them after
>> I've reviewed them.  I haven't yet acquired skills enough to do that
>> with Gnus.
>>
>> I know it's possible to save them as drafts and send them later, but I'd
>> like to distinguish between partially written messages from messages
>> queued for delivery.
>
> This might not be useful to you eiter, but you can queue messages for
> sending later - they will be stored in a different group than drafts,
> and automatically sent at the time you specifify (or after the interval
> you specify).
>
> I really like that feature - maybe it can be adapted for you purpose?

I'm using it now.  Trying it out.  I tried offline mode, but it seemed
not very easy to understand how to really use it, so I'm back at online
mode with some caching and using delayed articles.  Thanks for suggesting.
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Re: on automatic gnus-summary-insert-new-articles after posting

[Adam Sjøgren]

Robert writes:

> Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:
>
>> How did you get the clear idea with slrn?
>
> I think the explanation to this psychology is that simpler is easier to
> understand.  I haven't used slrn in a while so I hardly remember the
> complaints I had there.  It's coming to me now that I could only edit
> one article at a time there because slrn doesn't have the window
> concept.  I had to draft an article, edit another.

Ok, I was fishing after what behaviour you would like to see, for you to
get the overview you are lacking.

I am so used to previously read articles not being shown that it feels
very natural to me, but I know that it's different for different people
:-)

[Delayed sending]

> I'm using it now.  Trying it out.  I tried offline mode, but it seemed
> not very easy to understand how to really use it, so I'm back at online
> mode with some caching and using delayed articles.  Thanks for suggesting.

You're welcome - for what it's worth I've never had use for
offline-mode/the agent.


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
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                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk


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