[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Brian S Walden]

I seem to remember that for System V TCP/IP that you needed
STREAMS first, so that was SVR3. It may have been back potred
but I don't know. And after that, then you had a choice of
Wollongong or Lachman implementations. Bell Labs had their own as well,
but I believe that was only available internally. Amdahl UTS used
Lachman (which I kind of remember might have been Convergent's code),
but at Indian Hill it was removed and the home grown one put in.
I don't know who did the kernel code, but the user land utilities
were BSD ports done by Ralph Knag in Murray Hill. This was an
interesting setup as it was System/370 hardware so it had a 
channel to ethernet device from Spartacus, probably a K200 since
there was a "k200" command to fiddle with it. I largely ignored
TCP/IP initially as on the first UTS release, just telneting out of it
used a ton of system CPU, something would loop in the kernel instead of
going to sleep. Besides we had Datakit for interactive connectivity,
and NSC HyperChannel for intra-datacenter file transfer
(which I remember being something like 50mbs in 1987)

For the original SVR4, the official porting base was the 3b2 and that
group from Summit (which was later spun off as Unix Systems Laboraties
(USL)) used Lachman as well for it's TCP/IP.

> I was wondering if anyone had access to any SYSV for the VAX and could
> say what levels support TCP/IP?
> 
> I put in a request at http://www.novell.com/licensing/ntap/legal.html
> to see if they are even entertaining the sale of SYSV licenses... But
> I kind of figure they don't have the actual material itself....
> 
> I know A/UX a SYSVr2.2 had TCP/IP but I don't know if it was in the
> AT&T base, or if it was something that UniSoft had added...
> 
> Anyways thanks for any/all responses....
> 
> Oh and FWIW I've gotten a super minimal SYSIII thing booting on SIMH!
> I've just have to work out some more disk formatting/restoring as the
> root partition sizes don't agree between 32v & SYSIII....
> 
> Jason

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Larry McVoy]

I can verify that the lachman stack came from convergent.

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 01:39:19PM -0400, Brian S Walden wrote:
> I seem to remember that for System V TCP/IP that you needed
> STREAMS first, so that was SVR3. It may have been back potred
> but I don't know. And after that, then you had a choice of
> Wollongong or Lachman implementations. Bell Labs had their own as well,
> but I believe that was only available internally. Amdahl UTS used
> Lachman (which I kind of remember might have been Convergent's code),
> but at Indian Hill it was removed and the home grown one put in.
> I don't know who did the kernel code, but the user land utilities
> were BSD ports done by Ralph Knag in Murray Hill. This was an
> interesting setup as it was System/370 hardware so it had a 
> channel to ethernet device from Spartacus, probably a K200 since
> there was a "k200" command to fiddle with it. I largely ignored
> TCP/IP initially as on the first UTS release, just telneting out of it
> used a ton of system CPU, something would loop in the kernel instead of
> going to sleep. Besides we had Datakit for interactive connectivity,
> and NSC HyperChannel for intra-datacenter file transfer
> (which I remember being something like 50mbs in 1987)
> 
> For the original SVR4, the official porting base was the 3b2 and that
> group from Summit (which was later spun off as Unix Systems Laboraties
> (USL)) used Lachman as well for it's TCP/IP.
> 
> > I was wondering if anyone had access to any SYSV for the VAX and could
> > say what levels support TCP/IP?
> > 
> > I put in a request at http://www.novell.com/licensing/ntap/legal.html
> > to see if they are even entertaining the sale of SYSV licenses... But
> > I kind of figure they don't have the actual material itself....
> > 
> > I know A/UX a SYSVr2.2 had TCP/IP but I don't know if it was in the
> > AT&T base, or if it was something that UniSoft had added...
> > 
> > Anyways thanks for any/all responses....
> > 
> > Oh and FWIW I've gotten a super minimal SYSIII thing booting on SIMH!
> > I've just have to work out some more disk formatting/restoring as the
> > root partition sizes don't agree between 32v & SYSIII....
> > 
> > Jason
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Gregg C Levine]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1716 bytes --]

Hello!
Corey where are you based? I'd just love to spend at least an hour or two
studying one of those old fellows. I actually investigated the weirdness
behind yet another somewhat old fashioned OS on one of those old fellow's
relatives. (An OS I am not going to mention unless someone wants to ask me
off-list.)

--
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
"The Force will be with you always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
  


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org]
On Behalf
> Of Corey Lindsly
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:07 PM
> To: Larry McVoy
> Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...
> 
> 
> [..]
> 
> > The 3b2's were ok.  I liked the ATT Unix PC, 3b1 (?).  My roomate and
> > I in college both bought those and did a lot of hacking on them.
> 
> Yup. I used an AT&T 3b1/7300 all through college.
> No ethernet. Polled for mail using dialup/UUCP.
> I still have a couple 3b1 machines stored in the
> garage...strange to think that the L2 caches on
> the Xeon 5410 CPUs in my web server are larger than
> the entire hard drive in my old UNIXpc. Shouldn't
> computers be doing a whole lot more by now?
> 
> Maybe of mild interest to some, here is a scan of a
> page from an old Byte article with benchmark data
> comparing the 3b1 to some of its peers at the time
> (TRS-80, VAX11/780, PC XT). Apologies for the quality
> of the image. Some day I'll dig out the originals and
> re-scan everything..
> 
> http://www.unixpc.org/bench1.gif
> 
> ---corey
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[M. Warner Losh]

In message: <46b366130905262035i18855ba6pc22447fc1e4f4e42 at mail.gmail.com>
            Jason Stevens <neozeed at gmail.com> writes:
: Microsoft of all people.... Or maybe that's precisely why it died.  Or
: if anyone can point me in a direction to build iBCS2 stuff with
: binutils/gcc I'm all ears.

I'd actually be interested in that as well...

Warner

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Jason Stevens]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1483 bytes --]

When did it go from UNIX to Unix?  Then again the whole "The Open
Group" makes less then no sense to me...   I have to laugh when
something that is clearly a UNIX (say 32v) can't be called UNIX
because the rights were sold out from underneath it...

But then I'm not a lawyer so the law makes little or no sense to me.

Then again the whole 'standards' thing reminds me of iBCS2... nice
idea, but too bad GNU didn't supported it worth a damn, besides
Microsoft of all people.... Or maybe that's precisely why it died.  Or
if anyone can point me in a direction to build iBCS2 stuff with
binutils/gcc I'm all ears.

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 11:06 PM, John Cowan <cowan at ccil.org> wrote:
> Jason Stevens scripsit:
>
>> I guess so... then I was just looking on google, SYSVR4 was released
>> in 1988.  It's kind of sad to think NOTHING signifigant happened in
>> the last 20 1/2 years, and that 1988 was the pinical of UNIX...
>
> "UNIX" is no longer the name of a codebase.  Technically, it is the name
> of a set of standards; in practice, it (usually written "Unix") is the
> name of an evolving design tradition.
>
> --
> John Cowan   <cowan at ccil.org>   http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> One time I called in to the central system and started working on a big
> thick 'sed' and 'awk' heavy duty data bashing script.  One of the geologists
> came by, looked over my shoulder and said 'Oh, that happens to me too.
> Try hanging up and phoning in again.'  --Beverly Erlebacher
>

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[John Cowan]

Jason Stevens scripsit:

> I guess so... then I was just looking on google, SYSVR4 was released
> in 1988.  It's kind of sad to think NOTHING signifigant happened in
> the last 20 1/2 years, and that 1988 was the pinical of UNIX...  

"UNIX" is no longer the name of a codebase.  Technically, it is the name
of a set of standards; in practice, it (usually written "Unix") is the
name of an evolving design tradition.

-- 
John Cowan   <cowan at ccil.org>   http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
One time I called in to the central system and started working on a big
thick 'sed' and 'awk' heavy duty data bashing script.  One of the geologists
came by, looked over my shoulder and said 'Oh, that happens to me too.
Try hanging up and phoning in again.'  --Beverly Erlebacher

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Corey Lindsly]

[..]

> The 3b2's were ok.  I liked the ATT Unix PC, 3b1 (?).  My roomate and
> I in college both bought those and did a lot of hacking on them.

Yup. I used an AT&T 3b1/7300 all through college. 
No ethernet. Polled for mail using dialup/UUCP.
I still have a couple 3b1 machines stored in the
garage...strange to think that the L2 caches on
the Xeon 5410 CPUs in my web server are larger than 
the entire hard drive in my old UNIXpc. Shouldn't 
computers be doing a whole lot more by now?

Maybe of mild interest to some, here is a scan of a
page from an old Byte article with benchmark data
comparing the 3b1 to some of its peers at the time
(TRS-80, VAX11/780, PC XT). Apologies for the quality 
of the image. Some day I'll dig out the originals and
re-scan everything..

http://www.unixpc.org/bench1.gif

---corey

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

>  I liked the ATT Unix PC, 3b1 (?).

Nice little machines. They were manufactured by Convergent  
Technologies. CTIX (Convergent's SVRx port) was a nice OS, and had a  
decent network stack. Their X.25 code was pretty horrid, though :-)

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

 >I think Lachman (where I was working at the
> time) did a lot of streams based TCP/IP, they may have done one for
> the vax.

Pre-SVR4 it was pretty much Lachman and Wollongong addons for pure  
SYSV releases.

> But why would you want it?  It was a steaming pile of sh*t.

Amen! It's a bloody miracle the Lachman code worked at all (on the 3B2  
at least). The Wollongong code was better. But both faithfully  
reproduced all the original BSD libc bugs. 

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Jason Stevens]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1774 bytes --]

> I doubt it - we (bitkeeper folks) still support sco and it sucks.  It's
> like time stood still and nothing was added.
>

I guess so... then I was just looking on google, SYSVR4 was released
in 1988.  It's kind of sad to think NOTHING signifigant happened in
the last 20 1/2 years, and that 1988 was the pinical of UNIX...  It
seems the last people pushing UNIX was SUN, but I still haven't heard
what Oracle will do with Solaris 10...  Then again, it's probably just
as well it's been opened up as it may as well die....

Oh well I'll wait for Novell to say what they are going to say... I'm
guessing either "its not for sale at any price", or "$1,000,000 per
cpu".... and probably the not for sale option would be about right.


>> > But why would you want it?  It was a steaming pile of sh*t.
>>
>> Morbid curiosity I guess... seeing as it's basically all but dead.  I
>> guess the SYSV stuff we ran on the 3B2's was more modern, and 'usable'
>> just as SYSVr3 (AIX) certainly was/is.
>
> The 3b2's were ok.  I liked the ATT Unix PC, 3b1 (?).  My roomate and
> I in college both bought those and did a lot of hacking on them.

I got to hack some STARLAN stuff with Windows for Workgroups then
Windows 95 going back to 3B2's... I'm still kind of amazed they worked
as well as they did...  But the nameless college I was at said "no
ethernet or tokenring"... so we had to do SOMETHING to have the joys
of file/print sharing email etc...  It's kind of funny to look back at
now.

But then I have to confess that I wanted a NeXT cube so bad, that I
ended up running Linux until I could salvage myself a copy of NS
around 2000...  An almost interesting story in itself as a Lucent tech
was dumping it... It was kind of the last place I'd have expected to
get a copy.

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Larry McVoy]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1263 bytes --]

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 07:57:01PM -0400, Jason Stevens wrote:
> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at bitmover.com> wrote:
> > I added TCP/IP to SCO which is some sort of sys v thing (I think, it's
> > been a lot of years).  I think Lachman (where I was working at the
> > time) did a lot of streams based TCP/IP, they may have done one for
> > the vax.
> 
> I've seen lots of sco stuff say it's SYSV... like Xenix 2.3.4 ... So I
> guess it's not outside of that realm.  It's too bad SCO never did
> bundle the dev kit & networking or that Linux thing probably never
> would have gained commercial traction.. but then that's just my wild
> guess.

I doubt it - we (bitkeeper folks) still support sco and it sucks.  It's
like time stood still and nothing was added.

> > But why would you want it?  It was a steaming pile of sh*t.
> 
> Morbid curiosity I guess... seeing as it's basically all but dead.  I
> guess the SYSV stuff we ran on the 3B2's was more modern, and 'usable'
> just as SYSVr3 (AIX) certainly was/is.

The 3b2's were ok.  I liked the ATT Unix PC, 3b1 (?).  My roomate and
I in college both bought those and did a lot of hacking on them.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Jason Stevens]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1250 bytes --]

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at bitmover.com> wrote:
> I added TCP/IP to SCO which is some sort of sys v thing (I think, it's
> been a lot of years).  I think Lachman (where I was working at the
> time) did a lot of streams based TCP/IP, they may have done one for
> the vax.

I've seen lots of sco stuff say it's SYSV... like Xenix 2.3.4 ... So I
guess it's not outside of that realm.  It's too bad SCO never did
bundle the dev kit & networking or that Linux thing probably never
would have gained commercial traction.. but then that's just my wild
guess.

>
> But why would you want it?  It was a steaming pile of sh*t.
>

Morbid curiosity I guess... seeing as it's basically all but dead.  I
guess the SYSV stuff we ran on the 3B2's was more modern, and 'usable'
just as SYSVr3 (AIX) certainly was/is.

That and it's been cool slowly getting SYSIII to go so in a way I
wanted to line up the last Bell UNIX, SYSV to be able to run it on
SIMH...  It certainly wouldn't be for anything 'production' grade, but
I guess it was this, or spend more time with 386BSD on Bochs......

Anyways I just got my first callback from Novell, and they are
forwarding it to the "linux team" for clarification on what on earth
SYSV even is...

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Larry McVoy]

I added TCP/IP to SCO which is some sort of sys v thing (I think, it's
been a lot of years).  I think Lachman (where I was working at the
time) did a lot of streams based TCP/IP, they may have done one for
the vax.

But why would you want it?  It was a steaming pile of sh*t.

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 07:45:19PM -0400, Jason Stevens wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone had access to any SYSV for the VAX and could
> say what levels support TCP/IP?
> 
> I put in a request at http://www.novell.com/licensing/ntap/legal.html
> to see if they are even entertaining the sale of SYSV licenses... But
> I kind of figure they don't have the actual material itself....
> 
> I know A/UX a SYSVr2.2 had TCP/IP but I don't know if it was in the
> AT&T base, or if it was something that UniSoft had added...
> 
> Anyways thanks for any/all responses....
> 
> Oh and FWIW I've gotten a super minimal SYSIII thing booting on SIMH!
> I've just have to work out some more disk formatting/restoring as the
> root partition sizes don't agree between 32v & SYSIII....
> 
> Jason
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com

[TUHS] SYSV & TCP/IP on the VAX...

[Jason Stevens]

I was wondering if anyone had access to any SYSV for the VAX and could
say what levels support TCP/IP?

I put in a request at http://www.novell.com/licensing/ntap/legal.html
to see if they are even entertaining the sale of SYSV licenses... But
I kind of figure they don't have the actual material itself....

I know A/UX a SYSVr2.2 had TCP/IP but I don't know if it was in the
AT&T base, or if it was something that UniSoft had added...

Anyways thanks for any/all responses....

Oh and FWIW I've gotten a super minimal SYSIII thing booting on SIMH!
I've just have to work out some more disk formatting/restoring as the
root partition sizes don't agree between 32v & SYSIII....

Jason