* [TUHS] UVM VM system @ 2018-09-01 18:50 Larry McVoy 2018-09-01 19:07 ` Warner Losh 2018-09-01 19:16 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2018-09-01 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS main list So I just read this https://www.usenix.org/legacy/event/usenix99/full_papers/cranor/cranor.pdf and it looks encouraging. Apparently NetBSD is using it. Does anyone know if they are happy with it? Has FreeBSD considered this? Has anyone benchmarked FreeBSD against NetBSD to see which is faster for VM stuff? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-01 18:50 [TUHS] UVM VM system Larry McVoy @ 2018-09-01 19:07 ` Warner Losh 2018-09-01 19:16 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Warner Losh @ 2018-09-01 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 657 bytes --] On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 12:51 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > So I just read this > > https://www.usenix.org/legacy/event/usenix99/full_papers/cranor/cranor.pdf > > and it looks encouraging. Apparently NetBSD is using it. Does anyone > know if they are happy with it? > They are relatively happy with it... > Has FreeBSD considered this? > Yes, but it would be a huge porting effort. > Has anyone benchmarked FreeBSD against NetBSD to see which is faster > for VM stuff? > Generally, the benchmarks favor FreeBSD. Again, it's a cleaner design, but the time spent optimizing FreeBSD's and eliminating the bottle necks has paid off... Warner [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1400 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-01 18:50 [TUHS] UVM VM system Larry McVoy 2018-09-01 19:07 ` Warner Losh @ 2018-09-01 19:16 ` Clem Cole 2018-09-01 19:41 ` ron minnich ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2018-09-01 19:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1832 bytes --] On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 2:51 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > So I just read this > > https://www.usenix.org/legacy/event/usenix99/full_papers/cranor/cranor.pdf I remember that presentsation, it was exciting and very cool ;-) > > > and it looks encouraging. Apparently NetBSD is using it. Hmm - integrated/used it at one time ... but ... I'm not sure of that is still true of it it even really made it out. That was all happening when I was still hacking on Alphas (which was a long time ago). We'd need the active NetBSD folks to chime in on curent state. > Does anyone > > know if they are happy with it? > At the time (and I'm doing this by memory) the buffer cache stuff needed a rewrite which I thought FreeBSD did/was doing at the time. In those days, FreeBSD was within epislon on of Tru64 on Alpha performance and NetBSD had a ways to go. At the time, I gave a couple of Alphas to somebody in the UK (I've forgotten whom); who was going to redo it. > > Has FreeBSD considered this? > Last I knew, no. I was under the impression, the work FreeBSD did rewriting the Mach stuff paid off for them at the time. I have FreeBSD, OpenBSD and Linux (and Mac OSx) all running on my systems here. But the problem is that the HW is all over the map in termns of release date, so I'm not sure which is faster at this point. The *BSD systems are the easiest to admin and clean/simplest (which is why they only systems I have exposed is an OpenBSD box). But they have uses ;-) > > Has anyone benchmarked FreeBSD against NetBSD to see which is faster > for VM stuff? > My data was from those days, and FreeBSD was winning, but thats a >>long<< time ago. Lots of bits have been types into to the kernel of both systems, so you tell me, Clem ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4143 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-01 19:16 ` Clem Cole @ 2018-09-01 19:41 ` ron minnich 2018-09-01 19:45 ` ron minnich 2018-09-01 20:25 ` Warner Losh 2018-09-01 19:53 ` Brad Spencer 2018-09-02 6:29 ` Andy Kosela 2 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2018-09-01 19:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 575 bytes --] I was his advisor on that thesis so I got to watch it roll out as it happened. uvm replaced the machvm in netbsd. For a time, Chuck set it up to run in parallel with the existing VM. You could start a process and pick which vm it used. For a while, it defaulted to the existing one. Then, at some point, it defaulted to uvm. Then, at some point, the old one was removed. more here: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/kernel/uvm.html via search terms uvm replaces machvm netbsd chuck was a long time contributor to netbsd IIRC, but last time we talked, he was using Linux. ron [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 874 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-01 19:41 ` ron minnich @ 2018-09-01 19:45 ` ron minnich 2018-09-01 20:25 ` Warner Losh 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2018-09-01 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 969 bytes --] I said that wrong, I was not his advisor, Guru was;I was the external committee member or external advisor or some such thing. Chuck and I talked an awful lot because I was doing a lot in the sunos and AIX VMs at the time, and Chuck and I had known each other from udel days. On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 12:41 PM ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote: > I was his advisor on that thesis so I got to watch it roll out as it > happened. > > uvm replaced the machvm in netbsd. > > For a time, Chuck set it up to run in parallel with the existing VM. You > could start a process and pick which vm it used. For a while, it defaulted > to the existing one. Then, at some point, it defaulted to uvm. Then, at > some point, the old one was removed. > > more here: > > http://www.netbsd.org/docs/kernel/uvm.html > > via search terms > uvm replaces machvm netbsd > > chuck was a long time contributor to netbsd IIRC, but last time we talked, > he was using Linux. > > ron > > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1531 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-01 19:41 ` ron minnich 2018-09-01 19:45 ` ron minnich @ 2018-09-01 20:25 ` Warner Losh 2018-09-01 21:15 ` ron minnich 2018-09-02 5:19 ` Kevin Bowling 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Warner Losh @ 2018-09-01 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ron minnich; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 846 bytes --] On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 1:42 PM ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote: > I was his advisor on that thesis so I got to watch it roll out as it > happened. > > uvm replaced the machvm in netbsd. > > For a time, Chuck set it up to run in parallel with the existing VM. You > could start a process and pick which vm it used. For a while, it defaulted > to the existing one. Then, at some point, it defaulted to uvm. Then, at > some point, the old one was removed. > > more here: > > http://www.netbsd.org/docs/kernel/uvm.html > > via search terms > uvm replaces machvm netbsd > > chuck was a long time contributor to netbsd IIRC, but last time we talked, > he was using Linux. > These days I know he's hacking on FreeBSD's storage stack with me at work :). I think he's still a netbsd contributor. I see his name in the commit log often.. Warner > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1608 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-01 20:25 ` Warner Losh @ 2018-09-01 21:15 ` ron minnich 2018-09-02 5:19 ` Kevin Bowling 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2018-09-01 21:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 968 bytes --] good to know! On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:26 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 1:42 PM ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I was his advisor on that thesis so I got to watch it roll out as it >> happened. >> >> uvm replaced the machvm in netbsd. >> >> For a time, Chuck set it up to run in parallel with the existing VM. You >> could start a process and pick which vm it used. For a while, it defaulted >> to the existing one. Then, at some point, it defaulted to uvm. Then, at >> some point, the old one was removed. >> >> more here: >> >> http://www.netbsd.org/docs/kernel/uvm.html >> >> via search terms >> uvm replaces machvm netbsd >> >> chuck was a long time contributor to netbsd IIRC, but last time we >> talked, he was using Linux. >> > > These days I know he's hacking on FreeBSD's storage stack with me at work > :). I think he's still a netbsd contributor. I see his name in the commit > log often.. > > Warner > >> [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1985 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-01 20:25 ` Warner Losh 2018-09-01 21:15 ` ron minnich @ 2018-09-02 5:19 ` Kevin Bowling 2018-09-02 14:55 ` Warner Losh 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Kevin Bowling @ 2018-09-02 5:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list Seems like Chuck Cranor is at CMU http://chuck.cranor.org/. Chuck Silvers is with you? On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 1:42 PM ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I was his advisor on that thesis so I got to watch it roll out as it >> happened. >> >> uvm replaced the machvm in netbsd. >> >> For a time, Chuck set it up to run in parallel with the existing VM. You >> could start a process and pick which vm it used. For a while, it defaulted >> to the existing one. Then, at some point, it defaulted to uvm. Then, at some >> point, the old one was removed. >> >> more here: >> >> http://www.netbsd.org/docs/kernel/uvm.html >> >> via search terms >> uvm replaces machvm netbsd >> >> chuck was a long time contributor to netbsd IIRC, but last time we talked, >> he was using Linux. > > > These days I know he's hacking on FreeBSD's storage stack with me at work > :). I think he's still a netbsd contributor. I see his name in the commit > log often.. > > Warner ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-02 5:19 ` Kevin Bowling @ 2018-09-02 14:55 ` Warner Losh 2018-09-02 15:28 ` Will Senn 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Warner Losh @ 2018-09-02 14:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kevin Bowling; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1293 bytes --] On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 11:19 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote: > Seems like Chuck Cranor is at CMU http://chuck.cranor.org/. Chuck > Silvers is with you? > Why I'm embarrassed to admit you are right. Chuck Silvers also did some VM work, but not uvm. Warner On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 1:42 PM ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> I was his advisor on that thesis so I got to watch it roll out as it > >> happened. > >> > >> uvm replaced the machvm in netbsd. > >> > >> For a time, Chuck set it up to run in parallel with the existing VM. You > >> could start a process and pick which vm it used. For a while, it > defaulted > >> to the existing one. Then, at some point, it defaulted to uvm. Then, at > some > >> point, the old one was removed. > >> > >> more here: > >> > >> http://www.netbsd.org/docs/kernel/uvm.html > >> > >> via search terms > >> uvm replaces machvm netbsd > >> > >> chuck was a long time contributor to netbsd IIRC, but last time we > talked, > >> he was using Linux. > > > > > > These days I know he's hacking on FreeBSD's storage stack with me at work > > :). I think he's still a netbsd contributor. I see his name in the commit > > log often.. > > > > Warner > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2438 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-02 14:55 ` Warner Losh @ 2018-09-02 15:28 ` Will Senn 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Will Senn @ 2018-09-02 15:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1915 bytes --] According to the Netbsd page: Chuck Cranor designed and implemented UVM, Matthew Green handled integration issues and wrote the swap subsystem, Chuck Silvers wrote the anonymous memory object pager (which added support for shared memory), and various other developers have converted the appropriate ports across. Andrew Brown modified UVM to be able to do top down memory management. It appears both Chuck’s contributed! Will Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 2, 2018, at 9:55 AM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 11:19 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote: >> Seems like Chuck Cranor is at CMU http://chuck.cranor.org/. Chuck >> Silvers is with you? > > > Why I'm embarrassed to admit you are right. Chuck Silvers also did some VM work, but not uvm. > > Warner > >> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 1:42 PM ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> I was his advisor on that thesis so I got to watch it roll out as it >> >> happened. >> >> >> >> uvm replaced the machvm in netbsd. >> >> >> >> For a time, Chuck set it up to run in parallel with the existing VM. You >> >> could start a process and pick which vm it used. For a while, it defaulted >> >> to the existing one. Then, at some point, it defaulted to uvm. Then, at some >> >> point, the old one was removed. >> >> >> >> more here: >> >> >> >> http://www.netbsd.org/docs/kernel/uvm.html >> >> >> >> via search terms >> >> uvm replaces machvm netbsd >> >> >> >> chuck was a long time contributor to netbsd IIRC, but last time we talked, >> >> he was using Linux. >> > >> > >> > These days I know he's hacking on FreeBSD's storage stack with me at work >> > :). I think he's still a netbsd contributor. I see his name in the commit >> > log often.. >> > >> > Warner [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3633 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-01 19:16 ` Clem Cole 2018-09-01 19:41 ` ron minnich @ 2018-09-01 19:53 ` Brad Spencer 2018-09-02 6:29 ` Andy Kosela 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Brad Spencer @ 2018-09-01 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: tuhs Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> writes: [snip] >> and it looks encouraging. Apparently NetBSD is using it. > > Hmm - integrated/used it at one time ... but ... I'm not sure of that is > still true of it it even really made it out. That was all happening when I > was still hacking on Alphas (which was a long time ago). We'd need the > active NetBSD folks to chime in on curent state. > [snip] Yes, UVM has been used with NetBSD for a very long time. The browseable CVS repo at www.netbsd.org suggests that work started in 1997 - 1998 or so. Looks like in 1999 the Mach VM was completely removed from NetBSD except for some include files, but clean up appears to have continued into 2000. -- Brad Spencer - brad@anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS - http://anduin.eldar.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-01 19:16 ` Clem Cole 2018-09-01 19:41 ` ron minnich 2018-09-01 19:53 ` Brad Spencer @ 2018-09-02 6:29 ` Andy Kosela 2018-09-02 8:07 ` Steve Mynott 2 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Andy Kosela @ 2018-09-02 6:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 795 bytes --] On Saturday, September 1, 2018, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > >> >> Has FreeBSD considered this? >> > Last I knew, no. I was under the impression, the work FreeBSD did > rewriting the Mach stuff paid off for them at the time. I have FreeBSD, > OpenBSD and Linux (and Mac OSx) all running on my systems here. But the > problem is that the HW is all over the map in termns of release date, so > I'm not sure which is faster at this point. The *BSD systems are the > easiest to admin and clean/simplest (which is why they only systems I have > exposed is an OpenBSD box). > OpenBSD is also using uvm[1]. But these days it certainly differs from NetBSD implementation as it was hacked on by different people during the last several years. [1] https://man.openbsd.org/uvm.9 --Andy [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1339 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] UVM VM system 2018-09-02 6:29 ` Andy Kosela @ 2018-09-02 8:07 ` Steve Mynott 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Steve Mynott @ 2018-09-02 8:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andy Kosela; +Cc: TUHS main list On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 08:29:42AM +0200, Andy Kosela typed: > OpenBSD is also using uvm[1]. But these days it certainly differs from > NetBSD implementation as it was hacked on by different people during the > last several years. > > [1] https://man.openbsd.org/uvm.9 Both forks now include a unified buffer cache. There is an interesting series of blog posts at <http://blog.pr4tt.com/2016/02/02/BSD-virtual-memory/> The OpenBSD UVM has particularly diverged from the original with the addition of a "dead entry queue" and the blog author complains about its lack of documentation. He also mentions an experimental RadixVM as being current "state of the art" although its not available on any mainstream systems. -- Steve Mynott <steve.mynott@gmail.com> cv25519/ECF8B611205B447E091246AF959E3D6197190DD5 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2018-09-02 15:29 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2018-09-01 18:50 [TUHS] UVM VM system Larry McVoy 2018-09-01 19:07 ` Warner Losh 2018-09-01 19:16 ` Clem Cole 2018-09-01 19:41 ` ron minnich 2018-09-01 19:45 ` ron minnich 2018-09-01 20:25 ` Warner Losh 2018-09-01 21:15 ` ron minnich 2018-09-02 5:19 ` Kevin Bowling 2018-09-02 14:55 ` Warner Losh 2018-09-02 15:28 ` Will Senn 2018-09-01 19:53 ` Brad Spencer 2018-09-02 6:29 ` Andy Kosela 2018-09-02 8:07 ` Steve Mynott
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