[TUHS] UNIX turns forty

[TUHS] UNIX turns forty

[Brian S Walden]

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133570

> So when do the official celebrations begin?  What's a good estimate
> of the month and date in 1969 when it all began?
> 
> Tim Newsham

[TUHS] UNIX turns forty

[Larry McVoy]

If there was some bright person here who had an idea as to how we might
honor these guys, in a way they would like, let's go.  They are geeks 
and we are too, seems like maybe someone could come up with an idea.

If that idea requires money then let me know, millions isn't in the
cards, but drop a couple of zeros and maybe we can do it.

Regardless of all that. kudos to Brian, Dennis, and Ken.  And Joe,
because I still do my papers in troff, our invoices are in troff,
and our logo is in troff.  Our website is in troff -ms format,
I wrote a perl script that generates the html.

--lm

On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 11:48:53PM -0400, Brian S Walden wrote:
> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133570
> 
> > So when do the official celebrations begin?  What's a good estimate
> > of the month and date in 1969 when it all began?
> > 
> > Tim Newsham
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com

[TUHS] UNIX turns forty

[Jim Capp]

Larry,

How about a virtual birthday "card" where we make a site that people  
from all over the world can sign on and leave personalized "best  
wishes"?

To promote it, we design a modest logo that people can place on their  
websites, linking to the site, allowing visitors to read the various  
"cards", and encouraging them to leave their own messages.

We could add an /etc/passwd style listing of "users" with their own / 
etc/motd or "wishes of the day".  We could bootstrap it with the  
original passwd entries, recognizing and saying "thank you" to the  
creators and contibutors of UNIX, in a wiki style with proper  
monitoring of course.

What do you think?

Jim


On Jun 5, 2009, at 12:18 AM, lm at bitmover.com (Larry McVoy) wrote:

> If there was some bright person here who had an idea as to how we  
> might
> honor these guys, in a way they would like, let's go.  They are geeks
> and we are too, seems like maybe someone could come up with an idea.
>
> If that idea requires money then let me know, millions isn't in the
> cards, but drop a couple of zeros and maybe we can do it.
>
> Regardless of all that. kudos to Brian, Dennis, and Ken.  And Joe,
> because I still do my papers in troff, our invoices are in troff,
> and our logo is in troff.  Our website is in troff -ms format,
> I wrote a perl script that generates the html.
>
> --lm
>
> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 11:48:53PM -0400, Brian S Walden wrote:
>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133570
>>
>>> So when do the official celebrations begin?  What's a good estimate
>>> of the month and date in 1969 when it all began?
>>>
>>> Tim Newsham
>> _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>

[TUHS] UNIX turns forty

[John Cowan]

Brian S Walden scripsit:

> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133570

Not a bad article, really, but <rant>I do get very tired of this rigid
separation of Linux and Unix.  No, Linux doesn't have any AT&T code,
but there isn't all that much left in Solaris or *BSD either (other
than header files and such).  And no, Linux distros aren't Unix-branded
at present, but FWIU, that's because certification is neither fast nor
cheap, and applies only to a given release.  Commercial Linuxes have fast
release cycles, and Debian, whose release cycles are slow, can't afford
certification.  But in terms of actual, rather than formal, compliance,
Linux is as much a Unix as any branded Unix.</rant>

-- 
The first thing you learn in a lawin' family    John Cowan
is that there ain't no definite answers         cowan at ccil.org
to anything.  --Calpurnia in To Kill A Mockingbird

[TUHS] UNIX turns forty

[Ian King]

On Jun 5, 2009, at 7:40 AM, John Cowan wrote:

> Brian S Walden scripsit:
>
>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do? 
>> command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133570
>
> Not a bad article, really, but <rant>I do get very tired of this rigid
> separation of Linux and Unix.  No, Linux doesn't have any AT&T code,
> but there isn't all that much left in Solaris or *BSD either (other
> than header files and such).  And no, Linux distros aren't Unix- 
> branded
> at present, but FWIU, that's because certification is neither fast nor
> cheap, and applies only to a given release.  Commercial Linuxes  
> have fast
> release cycles, and Debian, whose release cycles are slow, can't  
> afford
> certification.  But in terms of actual, rather than formal,  
> compliance,
> Linux is as much a Unix as any branded Unix.</rant>

Not a very *good* article, either, IMHO.  One gets the impression the  
author of the piece was given two or three pieces of data and  
instructed to write a historical drama around them.  I also suspect  
he's never seen a PDP-7, either.  Until about two years ago, one of  
these 'wimpy' machines was running a particle accelerator at the  
University of Oregon.  It was unnecessary to slam the PDP-7 to make  
the point that Unix was created on a computer of modest resources.

Unix bloat occurred for the same reason any other piece of software  
bloats up: users want to do less and get more.  While it's true that  
some programmers and companies are better than others at adding  
features without adding heft, most find such exercise in economy  
unnecessary given the "throw another giga[byte | hertz] at it"  
culture that currently prevails.

It's also amusing he introduces the NT kernel as some sort of  
'perfect foil' to Unix, without even mentioning its VMS roots - as  
though it sprang fully formed from the aether.  The reason NT was  
competitive is that Unix configuration and administration has never  
been a task for the meek.  The goal of Windows was to reduce - or  
hide - complexity and lower the intellectual 'cost' of entry.  It's  
not clear that newer versions have in fact accomplished that.  :-)

In other words, this read like any other popularized account - which  
would be expected, if it had been published in Ladies Home Journal.   
-- Ian 

[TUHS] UNIX turns forty

[John Cowan]

Ian King scripsit:

> Not a very *good* article, either, IMHO.  One gets the impression the  
> author of the piece was given two or three pieces of data and  
> instructed to write a historical drama around them.

A bit more than that: the author credits Salus as his main source,
so if you want more detail, you know where to get it.  Remember the
target audience.

> I also suspect he's never seen a PDP-7, either.

Few of us have, and even fewer have seen one running Unix, I dare say.
For that matter, I never saw a PDP-11 running Unix, though I certainly
heard plenty about it: my first Unix-in-anger was MS Xenix System III on
a PC/AT with a 10 Mb hard drive.

> It was unnecessary to slam the PDP-7 to make
> the point that Unix was created on a computer of modest resources.

"Wimpy" is a disrespectful word, undoubtedly.

> In other words, this read like any other popularized account - which  
> would be expected, if it had been published in Ladies Home Journal.   

Is it actually necessary to slam _Ladies' Home Journal_ to make the point
that _Computerworld_ is a popularizing magazine?  Have you ever read even
a single issue of LHJ?  I have read many of them, though admittedly not
since the 1970s.

-- 
John Cowan    cowan at ccil.org    http://ccil.org/~cowan
The present impossibility of giving a scientific explanation is no proof
that there is no scientific explanation. The unexplained is not to be
identified with the unexplainable, and the strange and extraordinary
nature of a fact is not a justification for attributing it to powers
above nature.  --The Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. "telepathy" (1913)

[TUHS] UNIX turns forty

[Ian King]

On Jun 5, 2009, at 11:29 AM, John Cowan wrote:

> Ian King scripsit:
>>
>
>> In other words, this read like any other popularized account - which
>> would be expected, if it had been published in Ladies Home Journal.
>
> Is it actually necessary to slam _Ladies' Home Journal_ to make the  
> point
> that _Computerworld_ is a popularizing magazine?  Have you ever  
> read even
> a single issue of LHJ?  I have read many of them, though admittedly  
> not
> since the 1970s.
>

I offer my sincere apology to Ladies Home Journal.  -- Ian 

[TUHS] UNIX turns forty

[Jason Stevens]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
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On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Brian S Walden<tuhs at cuzuco.com> wrote:
> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133570
>


I've just posted my $0.02 on the whole thing, but to recap I think
it's lame the author didn't try to track down any actual digital
artifacts of the era.  I've tried to make the Unix v1 resurrection
project more 'accessible' to the 'masses' (albeit windows masses)..
But I guess it's just not glitzy enough.. Or they just don't realize
that it even exists.

I guess what it is coming down to, if you want it done 'right' you're
going to have to do it yourself.  And I guess that would be to make
something detailed to categorized the evolutionary steps of Unix from
all the versions that are in the TUHS/PUPS archive.  And if the
multiuser facilities exist, to make as may different versions
(free/unencumbered or even 'commercial?') available online for people
to kick the tires...

I don't know I may be just dreaming in the sense I figure I'd probably
end up with something just as empty, but would people be willing to
put forth some kind of wiki of antidotes of their usage of various
Unix on platforms?

Maybe I'm just babbling so if it sounding too grandiose feel free to
say I'm delusional.

But in some way it’d be cool to have a “Unix museum” online that could
walk you thru the various versions, show off the features of each, and
allow the person to actually logon to a system..

That being said, is there a way to “cap” the amount of CPU that SIMH
uses?  Like a good old fashioned throttle?

[TUHS] Wikipedia for Unix?

[Warren Toomey]

On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 02:40:00PM -0400, Jason Stevens wrote:
> I don't know I may be just dreaming in the sense I figure I'd probably
> end up with something just as empty, but would people be willing to
> put forth some kind of wiki of antidotes of their usage of various
> Unix on platforms?

Jason's e-mail gave me an idea. There's a website somewhere where some
of the Mac developers captured anecdotes of the development of the Mac.
How about a wiki-like website for Unix, which is a combination of an
anecdote Wiki and a Wikipedia-for-Unix?

The site could capture stories, technical documentation, historical
summaries, usage tips etc. Where possible, articles would have citations,
but the site should allow the storage of primary documents too, e.g.
e-mails and old Usenet articles.

I'd suggest that editing isn't open to the general public, but either by
invitation or vetting. A group of people would be needed to watch out for
seriously bad articles/editing. At the same time, Unix history has been
very diverse and there has always been lots of opposing sub-groups, so
the site would need to be able to capture & deal with this diversity, as
would the people overseeing the site.

Comments?
	Warren

[TUHS] Wikipedia for Unix?

[John Cowan]

Warren Toomey scripsit:

> Comments?

Wikia uses MediaWiki, like Wikipedia, but is ad-driven and partitioned
into individual wikis.  Currently unix.wikia.com belongs to a spammer:
maybe we could get it liberated by talking to the wikia admins.

Alternatively, someone could host a MediaWiki installation.

-- 
It was impossible to inveigle           John Cowan <cowan at ccil.org>
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Into offering the slightest apology
For his Phenomenology.                      --W. H. Auden, from "People" (1953)

[TUHS] Wikipedia for Unix?

[Larry McVoy]

On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 07:39:43PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> Warren Toomey scripsit:
> 
> > Comments?
> 
> Wikia uses MediaWiki, like Wikipedia, but is ad-driven and partitioned
> into individual wikis.  Currently unix.wikia.com belongs to a spammer:
> maybe we could get it liberated by talking to the wikia admins.
> 
> Alternatively, someone could host a MediaWiki installation.

We have 3Mbit/sec (two T1's bonded) to the net and an air conditioned machine
room.  I'm more than happy to stick a machine in that room and put whatever
you guys want on it (debian? freebsd?) and make sure it is backed up.

Other than that it's up to you, but if that helps I can have a box in there
sometime next week.

We do this for other folks, my sister is a director at Music Together 
and we've hosted their mail server for years.

We're pretty stable as an organization, I can commit to a 5 year term
and unless the shit hits the fan I see no reason it can't go longer than
that.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com

[TUHS] www.tuhs.org now a MediaWiki

[Warren Toomey]

Warren Toomey scripsit:
> How about a wiki-like website for Unix, which is a combination of an
> anecdote Wiki and a Wikipedia-for-Unix? Comments?
 
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 07:39:43PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> Alternatively, someone could host a MediaWiki installation.

OK, I've switched the TUHS website www.tuhs.org to be a mediawiki. Right
now I have seeded the site with a few pages, but as with all wikis,
we need a whole bunch of people to upload content. So if you have any
anecdotes, or electronic documents, or any other Unix-related information,
then please join the wiki and add it in!

To join the wiki, click on the 'log in' link on the top-right, and then
click 'request account', which will prep the account and wait for me to
authorize it.

At the moment, I have created a small set of page categories, listed
below.  If you can think of any other categories, feel free to edit
http://www.tuhs.org/wiki/Wiki_Categories

Cheers & thanks in advance for participating!

	Warren

Pages on the Unix Heritage Society Wiki should belong to one of the following categories. If you can think of others, please edit this page. All pages should provide links and citations to allow the reader to verify the content.

Anecdote: A story about Unix history or using Unix. Page should include the name of the person telling the anecdote, and details of the time period covering the anecdote.

Artifact: a file (tarball, disk/tape image) or a system stored in the Unix Archive. The page should provide a web link to the artifact on minnie, and details of the artifact's provenance: how it came to be in the archive, who submitted it, where did the artifact come from etc.

Book: a monograph (but not a paper or document, see below). Page must include citation details for the document, and if possible an image of the book cover. Summaries and reviews of a book are welcome.

Document: a written document (but not a paper, see below). Page must include citation details for the document, and if possible a link to the document on-line.

Entity: an organisation (e.g. AT&T, BTL, USL), or a group (e.g. CSRG). Page should provide details of the entity and their relationship to the history of Unix.

Image: a visual image. Page should provide an explanation of the image and its relationship to the history of Unix, plus a link to the image on-line.

Paper: a paper which appeared in a journal or conference. Page must include citation details for the paper, and if possible a link to the paper on-line.

Person: an individual. Page should provide details of the person and their relationship to the history of Unix.

Tip: a tip or suggestion for installing, configuring or using an old version of Unix.

Version: a specific version of release of Unix. Page should detail the features of the version, its geneaology, date of release etc. If there is an artifact of this version in the Unix Archive, then the page should provide a link to the artifact's wiki page. 
_______________________________________________
TUHS mailing list
TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] www.tuhs.org now a MediaWiki

[Jim Capp]

Warren,

    I'm excited about www.tuhs.org as a MediaWiki.  In my spare time, I 
have been working on graphics and other anecdotes in celebration of UNIX 
turning 40.  Some time ago I answered a post on TUHS regarding my idea 
of a site as a birthday tribute.  I have reserved a number of domains 
and am working on just that.  Much of the materials I have collected 
would also work very well on TUHS Wiki.

I applied for access earlier today.  Let me know where you need help.  
Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, we developed and maintain the 
UNIX books list on groklaw's site.  See groklib.anteil.com.

Cheers,

Jim



Warren Toomey wrote:
> Warren Toomey scripsit:
>   
>> How about a wiki-like website for Unix, which is a combination of an
>> anecdote Wiki and a Wikipedia-for-Unix? Comments?
>>     
>  
> On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 07:39:43PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>   
>> Alternatively, someone could host a MediaWiki installation.
>>     
>
> OK, I've switched the TUHS website www.tuhs.org to be a mediawiki. Right
> now I have seeded the site with a few pages, but as with all wikis,
> we need a whole bunch of people to upload content. So if you have any
> anecdotes, or electronic documents, or any other Unix-related information,
> then please join the wiki and add it in!
>
> To join the wiki, click on the 'log in' link on the top-right, and then
> click 'request account', which will prep the account and wait for me to
> authorize it.
>
> At the moment, I have created a small set of page categories, listed
> below.  If you can think of any other categories, feel free to edit
> http://www.tuhs.org/wiki/Wiki_Categories
>
> Cheers & thanks in advance for participating!
>
> 	Warren
>
> Pages on the Unix Heritage Society Wiki should belong to one of the following categories. If you can think of others, please edit this page. All pages should provide links and citations to allow the reader to verify the content.
>
> Anecdote: A story about Unix history or using Unix. Page should include the name of the person telling the anecdote, and details of the time period covering the anecdote.
>
> Artifact: a file (tarball, disk/tape image) or a system stored in the Unix Archive. The page should provide a web link to the artifact on minnie, and details of the artifact's provenance: how it came to be in the archive, who submitted it, where did the artifact come from etc.
>
> Book: a monograph (but not a paper or document, see below). Page must include citation details for the document, and if possible an image of the book cover. Summaries and reviews of a book are welcome.
>
> Document: a written document (but not a paper, see below). Page must include citation details for the document, and if possible a link to the document on-line.
>
> Entity: an organisation (e.g. AT&T, BTL, USL), or a group (e.g. CSRG). Page should provide details of the entity and their relationship to the history of Unix.
>
> Image: a visual image. Page should provide an explanation of the image and its relationship to the history of Unix, plus a link to the image on-line.
>
> Paper: a paper which appeared in a journal or conference. Page must include citation details for the paper, and if possible a link to the paper on-line.
>
> Person: an individual. Page should provide details of the person and their relationship to the history of Unix.
>
> Tip: a tip or suggestion for installing, configuring or using an old version of Unix.
>
> Version: a specific version of release of Unix. Page should detail the features of the version, its geneaology, date of release etc. If there is an artifact of this version in the Unix Archive, then the page should provide a link to the artifact's wiki page. 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>   

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[TUHS] Wikipedia for Unix?

[Al Kossow]

Warren Toomey wrote:

> Jason's e-mail gave me an idea. There's a website somewhere where some
> of the Mac developers captured anecdotes of the development of the Mac.
> 

http://www.folklore.org/index.py

[TUHS] Wikipedia for Unix?

[Jim Capp]

Warren Toomey wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 02:40:00PM -0400, Jason Stevens wrote:
>   
>> I don't know I may be just dreaming in the sense I figure I'd probably
>> end up with something just as empty, but would people be willing to
>> put forth some kind of wiki of antidotes of their usage of various
>> Unix on platforms?
>>     
>
> Jason's e-mail gave me an idea. There's a website somewhere where some
> of the Mac developers captured anecdotes of the development of the Mac.
> How about a wiki-like website for Unix, which is a combination of an
> anecdote Wiki and a Wikipedia-for-Unix?
>
> The site could capture stories, technical documentation, historical
> summaries, usage tips etc. Where possible, articles would have citations,
> but the site should allow the storage of primary documents too, e.g.
> e-mails and old Usenet articles.
>
> I'd suggest that editing isn't open to the general public, but either by
> invitation or vetting. A group of people would be needed to watch out for
> seriously bad articles/editing. At the same time, Unix history has been
> very diverse and there has always been lots of opposing sub-groups, so
> the site would need to be able to capture & deal with this diversity, as
> would the people overseeing the site.
>
> Comments?
> 	Warren
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>   

Warren,

    Have you followed Groklaw?  Years ago, we put together a simple 
database to capture information on UNIX, books, technical papers, etc., 
for Groklaw.  It is still running to this day:

http://groklib.anteil.com/books/basic_list

It has a permanent spot on Groklaw's left hand menu ... 
http://www.groklaw.net

We have physical and virtual servers located in a colo-center with dual 
10-meg fiber to 8 N. Broad St. in Philadelphia.  The site has battery 
and generator backup.

Cheers,

Jim



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[TUHS] Wikipedia for Unix?

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

On Saturday,  6 June 2009 at  9:30:40 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 02:40:00PM -0400, Jason Stevens wrote:
>> I don't know I may be just dreaming in the sense I figure I'd probably
>> end up with something just as empty, but would people be willing to
>> put forth some kind of wiki of antidotes of their usage of various
>> Unix on platforms?
>
> Jason's e-mail gave me an idea. There's a website somewhere where some
> of the Mac developers captured anecdotes of the development of the Mac.
> How about a wiki-like website for Unix, which is a combination of an
> anecdote Wiki and a Wikipedia-for-Unix?

This is an excellent idea.  Count me in, and count a vote for
Mediawiki while you're at it.

> I'd suggest that editing isn't open to the general public, but
> either by invitation or vetting. A group of people would be needed
> to watch out for seriously bad articles/editing. At the same time,
> Unix history has been very diverse and there has always been lots of
> opposing sub-groups, so the site would need to be able to capture &
> deal with this diversity, as would the people overseeing the site.

I'm in two minds about this.  On the one hand, it makes perfect sense.
On the other, part of the advantage of things like Wikipedia is that
everything's in one place.  I honestly don't see the TUHS people being
active enough to produce anywhere like as much material as is already
present on Wikipedia.

Wikipedia has various "projects" which concern themselves with certain
subtopics (or they had them; looking at various pages, I can no longer
see any hints).  Does anybody know more details?  If we could find a
way to get a few knowledgeable, active people to ensure the
consistency and accuracy of UNIX-related articles, that could be a
better approach.

Greg
--
Finger grog at FreeBSD.org for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft MUA reports
problems, please read http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua
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[TUHS] Wikipedia for Unix?

[John Cowan]

Greg 'groggy' Lehey scripsit:

> On the other, part of the advantage of things like Wikipedia is that
> everything's in one place.

Ah, if only there were services that allowed people to find things on the
Web, no matter what site they were on!

> I honestly don't see the TUHS people being
> active enough to produce anywhere like as much material as is already
> present on Wikipedia.

But on a private wiki there's no issue with "notability" and the
Deletionist Brigade.

-- 
John Cowan    http://ccil.org/~cowan    cowan at ccil.org
[T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin.
Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which his
theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral purpose
in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory may
have important survival value. --Ian Johnston