[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Nelson H. F. Beebe]

Recent traffic on the TUHS list has discussed early publications about
UNIX at DECUS.

The Digital Technical Journal of Digital Equipment Corporation began
publishing in August 1985, and there is a nearly complete bibliography
at

	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/dectechj.bib

Change .bib to .html for a version with live hyperlinks.

The first publication there that mentions ULTRIX in its title is from
March 1986.  Unix appears in a title first in Spring 1995.

The document collection at

	http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/decus/ 

doesn't appear to have much that might be related to Unix ports to DEC
hardware.

The Hewlett-Packard Journal is documented in

	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/hpj.bib

The first paper recorded there that mentions Unix or HP-UX is
from March 1984.

The Intel Technical Journal is covered in those archives as well at

	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/intel-tech-j.bib

but it only began relatively recently, in 1997.

The IBM Systems Journal began in 1962, and the IBM Journal of Research
and Development in 1957, and both are in those archives at

	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/ibmsysj.bib
	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/ibmjrd.bib

In the Systems Journal, the first mention of Unix or AIX is in Fall
1979 (Unix) and then December 1987 (AIX).  In the Journal of R&D, AIX
appears in January 1990, and Unix appears in abstracts sporadically,
but is in a title first in late Fall 2002.

In the Bell Systems Technical Journal, covered at

	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/bstj1970.bib
	
(and other decades from 1920 to 2010), the first mention of Unix in a
title is July/August 1978.

There may have been similar corporate technology journals at other
computer companies, such as CDC, Cray, Data General, English Electric,
Ferranti, Gould, Harris, NCR, Pr1me, Univac, Wang, and others, but
I've so far made no attempt to track them down and add bibliographic
coverage.  Suggestions are welcome!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Nelson H. F. Beebe]

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 12:00:08 -0600, I posted to this list a summary of the
earliest mentions of Unix in several corporate technical journals.

This morning, I made a similar search in the complete bibliographies of
29 journals on the history of computing, mathematics, and science listed at

	http://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/index.html#content

As might be expected, there is little mention of Unix (or Linux) in those
publications: they only ones that I found are these:

+-----------------------+------------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| filename              | label            | substr(title,1,80)                                                               |
+-----------------------+------------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| cryptologia.bib       | Morris:1982:CFU  | Cryptographic Features of the UNIX Operating System                              |
| annhistcomput.bib     | Tomayko:1989:ACI | Anecdotes: a Critical Incident; The First Port of UNIX                           |
| annhistcomput.bib     | Tomayko:1989:AWC | Anecdotes: The Windmill Computer---An Eyewitness Report of the Scheutz Differenc |
| ieeeannhistcomput.bib | Toomey:2010:FEU  | First Edition Unix: Its Creation and Restoration                                 |
| ieeeannhistcomput.bib | Sippl:2013:IIM   | Informix: Information Management on Unix                                         |
+-----------------------+------------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Norman Wilson]

Dave Horsfall:

  Oh, and I also wrote many articles for AUUGN, and presented the original 
  Unix paper at a DECUS conference, just to stir up the VMSoids.

=====

Do you mean the first UNIX-related paper ever at a DECUS?  If so,
do you mean DECUS Australia or DECUS at all?  I'm pretty sure there
was UNIX-related activity in DECUS US in 1980, probably earlier, and
am quite sure there was by 1981 when I was on the sidelines of what
eventually became the UNIX SIG.

It was initially called the Special Software and Operating Systems SIG,
because DECUS US leadership always included a somewhat stodgy subgroup
who were more afraid of offending Digital's marketing people than of
serving the membership.  So we ended up with a code name.

Since there were in fact Digital technical and marketing people supporting
the new SIG, it was only a couple of years before the name was fixed.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
(Lived in Los Angeles and then New Jersey during that period)

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Dave Horsfall]

On Thu, 1 Oct 2015, Norman Wilson wrote:

> Dave Horsfall:
> 
>   Oh, and I also wrote many articles for AUUGN, and presented the original 
>   Unix paper at a DECUS conference, just to stir up the VMSoids.
> 
> =====
> 
> Do you mean the first UNIX-related paper ever at a DECUS?  If so, do you 
> mean DECUS Australia or DECUS at all?  I'm pretty sure there was 
> UNIX-related activity in DECUS US in 1980, probably earlier, and am 
> quite sure there was by 1981 when I was on the sidelines of what 
> eventually became the UNIX SIG.

Ah - minor clarification: it was a summary of the BSTJ paper, at DECUS 
Australia.  Sorry for any confusion (and my poor memory).

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Hellwig Geisse]

Hi,

I don't know if John Lions ever wrote a full book about
PCC, but there is a paper analyzing its second pass:

https://github.com/eunuchs/unix-archive/blob/master/Documentation/Papers/lions_PCCpass2_jun1979.pdf

Hellwig

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[scj]

That must be what I had remembered.  In truth, there was not much (IMHO)
in the first pass worth writing about...

Steve


> Hi,
>
> I don't know if John Lions ever wrote a full book about
> PCC, but there is a paper analyzing its second pass:
>
> https://github.com/eunuchs/unix-archive/blob/master/Documentation/Papers/lions_PCCpass2_jun1979.pdf
>
> Hellwig
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Aharon Robbins]

This is also in the TUHS archive, for anyone who's mirroring it.
It's 177 pages!  It looks to be a scan; too bad the orginal
troff is probably gone.

Thanks!

Arnold

> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 08:35:02 -0700
> From: scj at yaccman.com
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors
>
> That must be what I had remembered.  In truth, there was not much (IMHO)
> in the first pass worth writing about...
>
> Steve
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I don't know if John Lions ever wrote a full book about
> > PCC, but there is a paper analyzing its second pass:
> >
> > https://github.com/eunuchs/unix-archive/blob/master/Documentation/Papers/lions_PCCpass2_jun1979.pdf
> >
> > Hellwig

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Doug McIlroy]

I can assure you that Lorinda Cherry wrote most of the important
code in WWB, including style and diction. The idea for them
came from Bill Vesterman at Rutgers. Lorinda already had parts,
a real tour de force, which assigned parts of speech to words 
in a text. Style was the killer app for parts and was running
within days of his approach to the labs wondering whether 
such a thing could be built. Lorinda also wrote deroff, which
these tools of course needed. WWB per se was packaged by 
USDL; I am sorry I can't remember the name of the guiding
spirit. So Lorinda's code detoured through there on its
way into research Unix.

Chris van Wyk was cvw. He was at Bell Labs, not BSD.

Chuck Haley is indeed Charles B. Haley.

Andy Koenig was ark.

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Norman Wilson]

A few scattered answers, some redundant with those of others:

-- Lorinda Cherry (llc) worked at Bell Labs.  She wrote diction (and
the rest of the Writer's Workbench tools) there, in the early
1980s; if some people saw it first in BSD releases that is just
an accident of timing (too late for V7) and exposure (I'm pretty
sure it was available in the USG systems, which weren't generally
accessible until a year or two later).

Lorinda is one of the less-known members of the original Computer
Science Research Center who nevertheless wrote or co-wrote a lot
of things we now take for granted, like dc and bc and eqn and
libplot.

Checking some of this on the web, I came across an interesting
tidbit apparently derived from an interview with Lorinda:

http://www.princeton.edu/~hos/frs122/precis/cherry2.htm

I wholly endorse what she says about UNIX and the group it came from.
One fumble in the text: `Bob Ross' who liked to break programs is
surely really Bob Morris.

-- So far as I know, Tom Duff (td) was never at Berkeley.  He's
originally from Toronto; attended U of T; was at Lucasfilm for a
while (he has a particular interest in graphics, though he is a
very sharp and subtle programmer in general); started at Bell Labs
in 1984, not long before I did.  He left sometime in the 1990s,
lives in Berkeley CA, but works neither at UCB nor at Google but
at Pixar.

-- T. J. Kowalski (frodo) was at Bell Labs; when I was there he
worked in the research group down the hall (Acoustics, I think), with
whom Computer Science shared a lot of UNIX-releasted stuff.  Ted is
well-known for his work on fsck, but did a lot of other stuff, including
being the first to get Research UNIX to work on the MicroVAX II.  He
also had a high-quality mustache.

-- Andrew Koenig (ark) was part of the Computer Science group when
I was there in the latter 1980s.  He was a early adopter of C++.
asd, the automatic-software distributor we used to keep the software
in sync on the 20-or-so systems that ran Research UNIX, was his work.

-- Mike Tilson was, I think, one of the founders of HCR (Human Computing
Resources), a UNIX-oriented software company based in Toronto in the
early 1980s.  The company was later acquired by SCO, in the days when
SCO was still a technical company rather than a den of lawyers.

-- Peter Honeyman (honey) was never, I think, at Berkeley, though
he is certainly of the right character.  In the 1980s he was variously
(sometimes concurrently?) working for some part of AT&T and at Princeton.
For many years now he has been in Ann Arbor MI at the University of
Michigan, where his still-crusty manner appears not to interfere with
his being a respected researcher and much-liked teacher.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
(Bell Labs Computing Science Research, 1984-1990)

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[scj]

Writers' Workbench was unusual enough (word processing was
very new in the outside world) that Lorinda and one of her co-authors were
interviewed on the Today show.  She was asked if the program would suggest
using Ms. instead of Miss (much under discussion at the time).  As I
recall, she ducked the question gracefully.


> -- Lorinda Cherry (llc) worked at Bell Labs.  She wrote diction (and
> the rest of the Writer's Workbench tools) there, in the early
> 1980s; if some people saw it first in BSD releases that is just
> an accident of timing (too late for V7) and exposure (I'm pretty
> sure it was available in the USG systems, which weren't generally
> accessible until a year or two later).
>
> Lorinda is one of the less-known members of the original Computer
> Science Research Center who nevertheless wrote or co-wrote a lot
> of things we now take for granted, like dc and bc and eqn and
> libplot.
>
> Checking some of this on the web, I came across an interesting
> tidbit apparently derived from an interview with Lorinda:
>
> http://www.princeton.edu/~hos/frs122/precis/cherry2.htm
>

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Clem Cole]

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On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 9:27 AM, <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

> I think the Berkeley guys had an underground
> pipeline to Bell labs and some stuff got out that way. :-)
>

​It was not underground at all.    Tools packaged in BSD came from all over
the community.   style and diction were released into the wild by
themselves before the were packaged into an AT&T USG UNIX or Research UNIX
release.  It got them personally directly and had them installed at
Tektronix soon after first publishing and a talk about them at USENIX (IIRC
that was the Boulder conference in the "Black Hole" movie theatre.

Since I had a minor stake in it (as my first C program) fsck is another
good example of the path to UCB .  Ted started the predecessor program
​when he was at UMich (with Bill Joy).   He did his OYOC year and later a
full PhD at CMU.   He was one of my lab partners in his OYOC year.   fsck
was a we know it now was done during that time ( and I helped him a bit).
He was bring the sources back and forth from Summit to CMU (at the time in
an RK05 or sometimes a bootable DOS tape image of one - I may still have
one of these).    I believe he gave a copy of the sources very early to wnj
-- which is how it ended up in 4.1BSD.  I don't think it was in the
original 3.0 or 4.0 packages as it was not in V5, V6 or V7 either.  I
believe it was released in PWB 2.0 - not sure and Minnie does not seem to
have them.

I'm pretty the SCCS and cpio sources came through one of the PWB releases
(1 or 2)  that UCB got from AT&T.

​Clem​
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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Mary Ann Horton]

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I defer to Clem on these.

As I heard it, Lorinda wrote the Writers Workbench, a name pun on PWB, 
of which style and diction were the cornerstones.  I thought she was at 
Bell Labs at the time.  I recall a Bell Labs written summary booklet of 
DWB, although I can't find it in my museum.

I also heard that Ted K (aka "frodo") got fsck released to Berkeley by 
swearing (somehow with a straight face) to the Bell Labs lawyers that it 
had no commercial value.

     Mary Ann

On 09/24/2015 07:08 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 9:27 AM, <arnold at skeeve.com 
> <mailto:arnold at skeeve.com>> wrote:
>
>     I think the Berkeley guys had an underground
>     pipeline to Bell labs and some stuff got out that way. :-)
>
>
> ​It was not underground at all.    Tools packaged in BSD came from all 
> over the community.   style and diction were released into the wild by 
> themselves before the were packaged into an AT&T USG UNIX or Research 
> UNIX release.  It got them personally directly and had them installed 
> at Tektronix soon after first publishing and a talk about them at 
> USENIX (IIRC that was the Boulder conference in the "Black Hole" movie 
> theatre.
>
> Since I had a minor stake in it (as my first C program) fsck is 
> another good example of the path to UCB .  Ted started the predecessor 
> program ​when he was at UMich (with Bill Joy). He did his OYOC year 
> and later a full PhD at CMU.   He was one of my lab partners in his 
> OYOC year.   fsck was a we know it now was done during that time ( and 
> I helped him a bit).   He was bring the sources back and forth from 
> Summit to CMU (at the time in an RK05 or sometimes a bootable DOS tape 
> image of one - I may still have one of these).    I believe he gave a 
> copy of the sources very early to wnj -- which is how it ended up in 
> 4.1BSD.  I don't think it was in the original 3.0 or 4.0 packages as 
> it was not in V5, V6 or V7 either.  I believe it was released in PWB 
> 2.0 - not sure and Minnie does not seem to have them.
>
> I'm pretty the SCCS and cpio sources came through one of the PWB 
> releases (1 or 2)  that UCB got from AT&T.
>
> ​Clem​
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Jeremy C. Reed]

Have a look in your repo for this commit comment in diction/dprog.c.
(Committed by Robert R. Henry I think.)

D 4.2 82/11/06 14:32:50 rrh 2 1 00181/00044/00354
MRs:
COMMENTS:
Bill Jolitz @ Berkeley received this version from Lorindia Cherry
around September 1981, as the ``most recent version''.  Deltas 
seem to be progressive, rather than regressive, although the BTL sid for
deroff.c is retrograde; this is probably a case of parallel development

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Clem Cole]

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On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

> I also heard that Ted K (aka "frodo") got fsck released to Berkeley by
> swearing (somehow with a straight face) to the Bell Labs lawyers that it
> had no commercial value.


​That would have so much like Ted.   I never heard that story, but I would
believe it.  I do believe that he told them (rightfully) that it was
primarily developed at CMU using CMU computing resources (the 11/34A for
the Digital Lab in the EE Dept that Ted and I ran).  IIRC: the primary
feature hat he did to it at Summit besides support for the changes in the
V7 filesystems, was support for large disks (aka RP06) when attached to a
small address space (11/40 class) systems, of which CMU had a number as I
believe the Labs did also.   Armando's I believe you two were office mates
in those days, do you have memory?


    We had it at Tektronix because I brought it from CMU.

Clem​
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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Dave Horsfall]

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On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, Clem Cole wrote:

> the primary feature hat he did to it at Summit besides support for the 
> changes in the V7 filesystems, was support for large disks (aka RP06) 
> when attached to a small address space (11/40 class) systems, of which 
> CMU had a number as I believe the Labs did also.   Armando's I believe 
> you two were office mates in those days, do you have memory?

You had an RP-06 on a li'l' old /40?  You jammy bastard :-)

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."
              Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Clement T. Cole]

If will make you feel better the CMU drives were CDC with aftermarket controllers. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 25, 2015, at 10:37 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, Clem Cole wrote:
>> 
>> the primary feature hat he did to it at Summit besides support for the 
>> changes in the V7 filesystems, was support for large disks (aka RP06) 
>> when attached to a small address space (11/40 class) systems, of which 
>> CMU had a number as I believe the Labs did also.   Armando's I believe 
>> you two were office mates in those days, do you have memory?
> 
> You had an RP-06 on a li'l' old /40?  You jammy bastard :-)
> 
> -- 
> Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."
>              Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Armando Stettner]

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I actually recall him having done much of the work at CMU but can’t be sure.  I also seem to recall him finish up the paper.  I was lucky in my office mates: I had John Lions and tjk.  Some place, I have a few pics of USG’s computer room.  I only recall RP04s however.  :(

   aps.



> On Sep 24, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net <mailto:mah at mhorton.net>> wrote:
> I also heard that Ted K (aka "frodo") got fsck released to Berkeley by swearing (somehow with a straight face) to the Bell Labs lawyers that it had no commercial value.
> 
> ​That would have so much like Ted.   I never heard that story, but I would believe it.  I do believe that he told them (rightfully) that it was primarily developed at CMU using CMU computing resources (the 11/34A for the Digital Lab in the EE Dept that Ted and I ran).  IIRC: the primary feature hat he did to it at Summit besides support for the changes in the V7 filesystems, was support for large disks (aka RP06) when attached to a small address space (11/40 class) systems, of which CMU had a number as I believe the Labs did also.   Armando's I believe you two were office mates in those days, do you have memory?
> 
> 
>     We had it at Tektronix because I brought it from CMU.
> 
> Clem​
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Clem Cole]

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4 5 or 6 - just a few megabytes ;-)

Same RH11 interface.

On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 2:52 AM, Armando Stettner <aps at ieee.org> wrote:

> I actually recall him having done much of the work at CMU but can’t be
> sure.  I also seem to recall him finish up the paper.  I was lucky in my
> office mates: I had John Lions and tjk.  Some place, I have a few pics of
> USG’s computer room.  I only recall RP04s however.  :(
>
>    aps.
>
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:
>
>> I also heard that Ted K (aka "frodo") got fsck released to Berkeley by
>> swearing (somehow with a straight face) to the Bell Labs lawyers that it
>> had no commercial value.
>
>
> ​That would have so much like Ted.   I never heard that story, but I would
> believe it.  I do believe that he told them (rightfully) that it was
> primarily developed at CMU using CMU computing resources (the 11/34A for
> the Digital Lab in the EE Dept that Ted and I ran).  IIRC: the primary
> feature hat he did to it at Summit besides support for the changes in the
> V7 filesystems, was support for large disks (aka RP06) when attached to a
> small address space (11/40 class) systems, of which CMU had a number as I
> believe the Labs did also.   Armando's I believe you two were office mates
> in those days, do you have memory?
>
>
>     We had it at Tektronix because I brought it from CMU.
>
> Clem​
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
>
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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Dave Horsfall]

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On Sat, 26 Sep 2015, Armando Stettner wrote:

> I also seem to recall him finish up the paper.  I was lucky in my office 
> mates: I had John Lions and tjk.  Some place, I have a few pics of USG’s 
> computer room.  I only recall RP04s however.  :(    aps.

Dr. John Lions?  He was one of my Comp.Sci lecturers, and a brilliant 
bloke.

It was a sad day when we lost him.

I remember a USENET posting from long ago (yeah, I know), when someone 
swore that it was Lyons.  Someone then replied along the lines of "Well, 
I've just walked past his office door; it's Lions, as in the big cat."

Of course, my memory could be a little flakey by now.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."
              Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[scj]

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Lions' books on Unix and PCC were brilliant, although they had limited
circulation.  I confess that the PCC book was sometimes difficult reading,
as code that I cobbled together at 2AM was laid bare to the world.  I
remember a particularly tangled mess of 10 or so lines that John displayed
with the comment "advocates of structured programming might have preferred
to see:" followed by 3 short, elegant lines of code...



> On Sat, 26 Sep 2015, Armando Stettner wrote:
>
>> I also seem to recall him finish up the paper.  I was lucky in my
>> office
>> mates: I had John Lions and tjk.  Some place, I have a few pics of
>> USG’s
>> computer room.  I only recall RP04s however.  :(    aps.
>
> Dr. John Lions?  He was one of my Comp.Sci lecturers, and a brilliant
> bloke.
>
> It was a sad day when we lost him.
>
> I remember a USENET posting from long ago (yeah, I know), when someone
> swore that it was Lyons.  Someone then replied along the lines of "Well,
> I've just walked past his office door; it's Lions, as in the big cat."
>
> Of course, my memory could be a little flakey by now.
>
> --
> Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will
> suffer."
>               Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

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On Monday, 28 September 2015 at  9:55:47 -0700, scj at yaccman.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Sep 2015, Armando Stettner wrote:
>>
>>> I also seem to recall him finish up the paper.  I was lucky in my
>>> office
>>> mates: I had John Lions and tjk.  Some place, I have a few pics of
>>> USG’s
>>> computer room.  I only recall RP04s however.  :(    aps.
>>
>> Dr. John Lions?  He was one of my Comp.Sci lecturers, and a brilliant
>> bloke.
>>
>> It was a sad day when we lost him.
>>
>> I remember a USENET posting from long ago (yeah, I know), when someone
>> swore that it was Lyons.  Someone then replied along the lines of "Well,
>> I've just walked past his office door; it's Lions, as in the big cat."
>>
>> Of course, my memory could be a little flakey by now.

Possibly, but not in this case.

> Lions' books on Unix and PCC were brilliant, although they had
> limited circulation.

I haven't seen the PCC book, though I'd like to, but Warren published
a version of the Commentary on alt.folklore.computers in May 1994, and
I've had it up on my web site for over 10 years:
http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/

You'll note Dave Horsfall's name in the acknowledgements, along with a
number of other (now) well-known names.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at FreeBSD.org for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft MUA reports
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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Dave Horsfall]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2015, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> You'll note Dave Horsfall's name in the acknowledgements, along with a 
> number of other (now) well-known names.

Ah, my only real claim to Unix fame :-)  I helped with the proof-reading, 
and arranged for the printing on my department's PDP-11 (I think we had a 
fancy printer).

Oh, and I also wrote many articles for AUUGN, and presented the original 
Unix paper at a DECUS conference, just to stir up the VMSoids.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

On Thursday,  1 October 2015 at 12:09:21 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>
> Oh, and I also wrote many articles for AUUGN, and presented the
> original Unix paper at a DECUS conference, just to stir up the
> VMSoids.

I'll address the AUUGN issue some other time (do you want a whole lot
of back issues?), but the Unix paper at DECUS reminds me of when I
presented a paper entitled "Why BSD is better than Linux" at the 2002
Linux.conf.au.  http://www.lemis.com/grog/slashdot/

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at FreeBSD.org for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft MUA reports
problems, please read http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua
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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Dave Horsfall]

On Thu, 1 Oct 2015, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> I'll address the AUUGN issue some other time (do you want a whole lot of 
> back issues?),

No need for the issues; I have a copy of Warren's site on DVD (I was 
planning on being a mirror for it).

> but the Unix paper at DECUS reminds me of when I presented a paper 
> entitled "Why BSD is better than Linux" at the 2002 Linux.conf.au.  
> http://www.lemis.com/grog/slashdot/

I'll bet that went over well...

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[arnold]

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Hi.

This is the first I've heard that there was a book on PCC. I think
many of us would like to see it.  Do you have a copy that can be
scanned? Or does anyone have the source?

Thanks,

Arnold

scj at yaccman.com wrote:

> Lions' books on Unix and PCC were brilliant, although they had limited
> circulation.  I confess that the PCC book was sometimes difficult reading,
> as code that I cobbled together at 2AM was laid bare to the world.  I
> remember a particularly tangled mess of 10 or so lines that John displayed
> with the comment "advocates of structured programming might have preferred
> to see:" followed by 3 short, elegant lines of code...
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 26 Sep 2015, Armando Stettner wrote:
> >
> >> I also seem to recall him finish up the paper.  I was lucky in my
> >> office
> >> mates: I had John Lions and tjk.  Some place, I have a few pics of
> >> USGâ␦␦s
> >> computer room.  I only recall RP04s however.  :(    aps.
> >
> > Dr. John Lions?  He was one of my Comp.Sci lecturers, and a brilliant
> > bloke.
> >
> > It was a sad day when we lost him.
> >
> > I remember a USENET posting from long ago (yeah, I know), when someone
> > swore that it was Lyons.  Someone then replied along the lines of "Well,
> > I've just walked past his office door; it's Lions, as in the big cat."
> >
> > Of course, my memory could be a little flakey by now.
> >
> > --
> > Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will
> > suffer."
> >               Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
> > _______________________________________________
> > TUHS mailing list
> > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Jeremy C. Reed]

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On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, Clem Cole wrote:

>    I believe he gave a copy of the sources very early to wnj -- which is how
> it ended up in 4.1BSD.  I don't think it was in the original 3.0 or 4.0
> packages as it was not in V5, V6 or V7 either.  I believe it was released in
> PWB 2.0 - not sure and Minnie does not seem to have them.

Yes, it is in 4.0BSD (the copy I have has it documented in the setup.t 
from Nov. 15, 1980, fsck.mm from Oct. 15, 1980). It appears to be the 
same code as in 4.1 also.

(But I cannot find 4.0 in Diomidis's git repo. I also don't have the 
original SCCS data from the early fsck, probably because it got moved 
and extended in different location.)

By the way, I see the .8 manual for it got a Regents copyright placed on 
it between 4.2 and 4.3 (even though contained lots of original text as 
in 4.0BSD). The extensive rewrite to the fsck code happening between 4.1 
and 4.3. fsck.c split up into main.c and others in August 1981, even 
though 4.2 a later year still shipped fsck.c and not the new code.

(Reminds me I need to listen to video from McKusick about history of 
ffs again.)

"the calm before the storm ... the storm ... the Coast Guard to the 
rescue" (from the fsck document)

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Clem Cole]

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On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Jeremy C. Reed <reed at reedmedia.net> wrote:

> The extensive rewrite to the fsck code happening between 4.1
> and 4.3. fsck.c split up into main.c and others in August 1981, even
> though 4.2 a later year still shipped fsck.c and not the new code.
>

​IIRC - Kirk did that as part of the FFS work he started. ​
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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Clem Cole]

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BTW:  If I can find one of my old CMU tapes and it is still readable - I
should have a version from before it was released in PWB or elsewhere.  I
know I >>had<< it in one of CMU EE directories but I do not have that
online these days.

BTW: Historical note, the reason the errors were in UPPER CASE was because
Ted was a MTS hacker and I was a TSS hacker before Unix and that's how MTS
and TSS signaled errors.

Clem

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Jeremy C. Reed <reed at reedmedia.net>
> wrote:
>
>> The extensive rewrite to the fsck code happening between 4.1
>> and 4.3. fsck.c split up into main.c and others in August 1981, even
>> though 4.2 a later year still shipped fsck.c and not the new code.
>>
>
> ​IIRC - Kirk did that as part of the FFS work he started. ​
>
>
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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Diomidis Spinellis]

On 24/09/2015 22:04, Jeremy C. Reed wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, Clem Cole wrote:
>>    I believe he gave a copy of the sources very early to wnj -- which is how
>> it ended up in 4.1BSD.  I don't think it was in the original 3.0 or 4.0
>> packages as it was not in V5, V6 or V7 either.  I believe it was released in
>> PWB 2.0 - not sure and Minnie does not seem to have them.
> 
> Yes, [fsck] is in 4.0BSD (the copy I have has it documented in the setup.t 
> from Nov. 15, 1980, fsck.mm from Oct. 15, 1980). It appears to be the 
> same code as in 4.1 also.
> 
> (But I cannot find 4.0 in Diomidis's git repo. I also don't have the 
> original SCCS data from the early fsck, probably because it got moved 
> and extended in different location.)

This is the link to the 4.0BSD fsck version in the history repo:

https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/BSD-4/usr/src/cmd/fsck.c

To navigate to the 4.0BSD release in the repo, the process is not the
most intuitive.  Click on the top-right button labeled "Branch: master",
click on the "Tags" tab, and select BSD-4.  This drives you to
https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/tree/BSD-4.

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Clem Cole]

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On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Jeremy C. Reed <reed at reedmedia.net> wrote:

> But I cannot find 4.0 in Diomidis's git repo. I also don't have the
> original SCCS data from the early fsck, probably because it got moved
> and extended in different location.
>

​FYI:  "Early" fsck was developed before SCCS and PWB 1.0.   Version
control was what Ted has on his disk at the time.   At some point, I would
have expected that he put it under control @ Summit and wnj is likely to
have done the same at UCB.​  What is in the BSD repository is about 3-4
years into development.

As I said, Ted taught us all to use DOS-11 backup to make an image of his
RK05 to small of reel 9-track tape [800 bpi IIRC].  As I said, at one point
I had a couple of those tapes.  I looked for the box of them from CMU but I
free I may have disposed of them when I lost access to an 800 bpi drive [I
now have one, although it has an issue loading tapes I need to fix].

Clem
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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Clem Cole 

    > Eric Schienbrood
    > .. Noel might remember his MIT moniker

No, alas; and I tried 'finger Schienbrood at lcs.mit.edu' and got no result.
Maybe he was in some other part of MIT, not Tech Sq?

    > From: Arnold Skeeve

    > Here too I think stuff written at ATT got out through Berkeley. (SCCS)

That happened at MIT, too - we had SCCS quite early (my MIT V6 manual has
it), plus all sorts of other stuff (e.g. TROFF).

I think some of it may have come through Jon Sieber, who, while he was in high
school, had been part of (IIRC) a Scout troop which had some association with
Bell Labs, and continued to have contacts there after he became an MIT
undergrad.

	Noel

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Lawrence Stewart]

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> On 2015, Sep 24, at 9:56 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> From: Clem Cole 
> 
>> Eric Schienbrood
>> .. Noel might remember his MIT moniker
> 
> No, alas; and I tried 'finger Schienbrood at lcs.mit.edu' and got no result.
> Maybe he was in some other part of MIT, not Tech Sq?
> 

I can’t speak to then-year id’s, but Eric Schienbrook
is in the MIT alumni directory as ers at alum.mit.edu  (class of ’78) last 
updated 2009.

Jon Sieber is listed as jonsieber at alum.mit.edu (class of ’78) but it was last
updated in 2004.


-L

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Diomidis Spinellis]

I found out that the book "Life with Unix" by Don Libes and Sandy
Ressler has a seven page listing of Unix notables, and I'm using that to
fill gaps in the contributors of the Unix history repository [1,2].
Working through the list, the following questions came up.

- Lorinda Cherry is credited with diction.  But diction.c first appears
in 4BSD and 2.10BSD.  Did Lorinda Cherry implement it at Berkeley?

- Is Chuck Haley listed in the book as the author of tar the same as
Charles B. Haley who co-authored V7 usr/doc/{regen,security,setup}?  He
appears to have worked both at Bell labs (tar, usr/doc/*) and at
Berkeley (ex, Pascal).  Is this correct?

- Andrew Koenig is credited with varargs.  This is a four-line header
file in V7. Did he actually write it?

- Ted Dolotta is credited with the mm macros, but the document "Typing
Documents with MM is written by by D. W. Smith and E. M. Piskorik.  Did
its authors only write the documentation?  Did Ted Dolotta also write
mmcheck?


Also, I'm missing the login identifiers for the following people.  If
anyone remembers them, please send me a note.

Bell Labs, PWB, USG, USDL:
Andrew Koenig
Charles B. Haley
Dick Haight
Greg Chesson
Herb Gellis
Mark Rochkind
Ted Dolotta

BSD:
Bill Reeves
Charles B. Haley
Colin L. Mc Master
Chris Van Wyk
Douglas Lanam
David Willcox
Eric Schienbrood
Earl T. Cohen
Herb Gellis
Ivan Maltz
Juan Porcar
Len Edmondson
Mark Rochkind
Mike Tilson
Olivier Roubine
Peter Honeyman
R. Dowell
Ross Harvey
Robert Toxen
Tom Duff
Ted Dolotta
T. J. Kowalski

Finally, I've summarized all contributions allocated through file path
regular expressions [3] into two tables ordered by author [4].  (The
summary is auto-generated by taking the last significant part of each
path regex.) If you want, please have a look at them and point out
omissions and mistakes.

I will try to commit all responses I receive with appropriate credit to
the repository.  (You can also submit a GitHub pull-request, if you prefer.)

[1] https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo
[2]
http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/conf/2015-MSR-Unix-History/html/Spi15c.pdf
[3]
https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-make/tree/master/src/author-path
[4] http://istlab.dmst.aueb.gr/~dds/contributions.pdf

Diomidis

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Warren Toomey]

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 12:27:03PM +0300, Diomidis Spinellis wrote:
> I found out that the book "Life with Unix" by Don Libes and Sandy
> Ressler has a seven page listing of Unix notables, and I'm using that to
> fill gaps in the contributors of the Unix history repository [1,2].
> Working through the list, the following questions came up.

Wow, Diomidis, I'm reading the Spi15c.pdf paper, great work! Have you
mined the v6.bugs and v7.bugs Usenet postings, as they contain a whole
bunch of patches to these systems and will have names of authors too.

Cheers, Warren

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Clem Cole]

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​Do you want to know their email addresses for whence they did the work.
Here are some of them​

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 5:27 AM, Diomidis Spinellis <dds at aueb.gr> wrote:

>
> Eric Schienbrood
> ​             -- "erics"   was @ ucbvax.berkeley.edu , although Noel
> might remember his MIT moniker
>
>
> Mike Tilson
> ​                     -- "mike" was an HRS in Toronto but I think he was
> at Unvi. of Toronto or ​Waterloo before he started his company.  Henry
> Spencer probably knows for sure.
>
>
> Peter Honeyman
> ​            -- "honey" was all over.  I suspect the work is most remember
> ​was at AT&T but he was at Princeton.  honey at usenix.org will find him
>
>
> T. J. Kowalski
> ​                 -- "tjk"​ was at CMU and AT&T Summit when he wrote
> fsck.  BTW for those that don't know died two years ago.
>
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[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[arnold]

I've asked BWK to shed some light.

> - Lorinda Cherry is credited with diction.  But diction.c first appears
> in 4BSD and 2.10BSD.  Did Lorinda Cherry implement it at Berkeley?

She was at Bell Labs; I think the Berkeley guys had an underground
pipeline to Bell labs and some stuff got out that way. :-)
(Mary Ann? Care to shed some light?)

> BSD:
> Chris Van Wyk

Chris Van Wyk definitely was at Bell Labs at some point. He did Ideal,
a preprocessor similar to pic and also wrote an algorithms with C book.
I don't think he was ever at UCB but I don't know.

> Mark Rochkind

Here too I think stuff written at ATT got out through Berkeley. (SCCS)

> Peter Honeyman

I don't think he was ever at UCB; he was at Bell Labs for a short
time (cf HoneyDanBer UUCP and the V8 /mail file system).

> Tom Duff

I believe he was 'td'; I also don't think he was at UCB. He
pingponged a bit between Bell Labs and LucasFilm, I think. Cf the
Plan 9 'rc' shell and the infamous "Duff's Device".

> Ted Dolotta
> T. J. Kowalski

Also, methinks, a case of UCB releasing stuff written by ATT.

Feel free to take all this with a grain of salt. I was around USENET
in those days, but didn't know any of these people personally; I just
read their documents and USENET postings.

HTH,

Arnold

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[John Cowan]

Diomidis Spinellis scripsit:

> - Lorinda Cherry is credited with diction.  But diction.c first appears
> in 4BSD and 2.10BSD.  Did Lorinda Cherry implement it at Berkeley?

Diction and style were part of Writer's Workbench, a sort of analogue of
PWB for technical writers rather than GE programmers.  There were apparently
quite a few others as well.  There is now a commercial product called
WWB based on the old software, but running as plugins to MS Word.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
The known is finite, the unknown infinite; intellectually we stand
on an islet in the midst of an illimitable ocean of inexplicability.
Our business in every generation is to reclaim a little more land,
to add something to the extent and the solidity of our possessions.
        --Thomas Henry Huxley

[TUHS] Questions regarding early Unix contributors

[Jeremy C. Reed]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, Diomidis Spinellis wrote:

> - Is Chuck Haley listed in the book as the author of tar the same as
> Charles B. Haley who co-authored V7 usr/doc/{regen,security,setup}?  He
> appears to have worked both at Bell labs (tar, usr/doc/*) and at
> Berkeley (ex, Pascal).  Is this correct?

Yes, same. Also see note from Ritchie: "tar was done by C. B. Haley 
while he was here at BTL in the research group.  This is my memory, and 
is confirmed by his web page."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/haley$20tar/alt.folklore.computers/K2gh19Qcv8Q/j8TZXSyFBoMJ
(I don't see on his webpage though. and the old page isn't on the 
wayback machine.)

(I really need to finish my first version of my book. Of the 80+ old BSD 
contributors I interviewed, I think he is the only one to tell me he 
wasn't interested in participating.)

> BSD:

I looked in every passwd related file in my entire archive of all old 
BSD releases and don't see any of these. (I have heard from some of them 
though.)

> Charles B. Haley

The old winfo database (which includes "a miniature
/etc/passwd to speed up user name searches) and its manual has "chuck".
But I see you already have him in the following:

> https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-make/tree/master/src/author-path

This is awesome.

By the way, a list of the people I contacted from around 4.0 and 
earlier is at 
http://reedmedia.net/books/bsd-history/tmp-pre-mid-1980-people

If you are curious ...

t1:bsd-history$ wc -l PEOPLE # notes and contact details
    8004 PEOPLE
t1:bsd-history$ grep ^== PEOPLE | wc -l                                        
     452
t1:bsd-history$ find interviews/ -type f | grep -v my-letters | wc -l
      95
t1:bsd-history$ grep bibitem generated/book.bbl | wc -l
     221
t1:bsd-history$ grep "\cite{" svn-bsd-history/*tex | wc -l 
    1282
t1:bsd-history$ grep CITE: svn-bsd-history/*tex | cut -d : -f 2- | sort | uniq | wc -l
     190
(left to add bibtex entries for)