From: Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.org>
To: Zsh hackers list <zsh-workers@sunsite.dk>
Cc: Richard Hartmann <richih.mailinglist@gmail.com>,
Peter Stephenson <p.w.stephenson@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: arithmetic operator precedence
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:35:51 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20080617123551.GJ10734@prunille.vinc17.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20080617115742.GE5016@sc.homeunix.net>
On 2008-06-17 12:57:42 +0100, Stephane Chazelas wrote:
> Which makes sense to me. I was serious when I said that -3 ** 2
> was more intuitive to me. Because -3 for me looks like a single
> number constant.
But it behaves in the same way as - 3, which doesn't look like a
single number constant. And in math, when writing -3^2, the -3 isn't
a single number constant; said otherwise, you need to take the whole
expression into account.
BTW, note that in C at least, -3 isn't a single number constant.
And this fact is visible in practice, e.g. on a machine with 32-bit
int's:
#include <stdio.h>
int main (void)
{
printf ("%d %d\n",
(int) sizeof(-2147483648),
(int) sizeof(-2147483647));
return 0;
}
outputs "8 4", though the value -2147483648 fits in an int (if
-2147483648 were regarded as a single number constant, one would
have got "4 4").
> BTW, I think I've got a rationale for -3 ** 2 == 9:
>
> I think POSIX allows $((a * 3)) only as far as $a contains a
> constant. If it contains "1 + 1", you won't be guaranteed to
> have either 6 or 4.
But this rationale doesn't apply if the shell chooses to return 6
(which is IMHO the right extension, and what both bash and zsh do),
i.e. you can see $((a * 3)) as equivalent to $(((a) * 3)). Indeed,
with this choice, -3**2 == -9 is consistent with:
$ a=-3
$ echo $((a ** 2))
9
> So, if you agree that -3 is an integer constant, and agree that
> as POSIX says variable expansion should be performed before the
> arithmetic expression is evaluated, so that x=3; echo $(($x *
> 2)) is the same as echo $((-3 ** 2)), that'd mean tha
But POSIX does not say that variable expansion should be performed
before the arithmetic expression (at least in th way you think).
If POSIX said so, then with a="1 + 1", $((a * 3)) would give
$((1 + 1 * 3)) after variable expansion (without being able to make
the difference with $((1 + 1 * 3)) written directly), then 5 after
arithmetic expansion. But neither zsh nor bash behaves in that way.
> > I think that Perl authors would say something like conventional math
> > writing (that's what some of authors of calculators say and what users
> > often demand).
> [...]
>
> But I don't write 2**3 in conventional math writing,
But there is a direct equivalence (the only ambiguity is where the
part in exponent ends, and there's an rule in languages for that).
Let's take another example: "-3!" which is conventional math writing.
In math, this means -(3!), i.e. -6. As you can see, -3 isn't regarded
as a constant. And if a shell (or some other language) wants to
support the factorial, it should regard -3! as -(3!).
--
Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.org> - Web: <http://www.vinc17.org/>
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <http://www.vinc17.org/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arenaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2008-06-17 12:36 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 45+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2008-06-12 9:57 Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-12 13:12 ` Mikael Magnusson
2008-06-12 13:40 ` Peter Stephenson
2008-06-12 14:47 ` Bart Schaefer
2008-06-12 15:01 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-16 8:17 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-16 8:07 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-16 13:42 ` Peter Stephenson
2008-06-16 13:59 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-16 14:33 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-17 9:19 ` Richard Hartmann
2008-06-17 9:45 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-17 10:24 ` Richard Hartmann
2008-06-17 10:24 ` Richard Hartmann
2008-06-17 10:38 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-17 10:43 ` Peter Stephenson
2008-06-17 11:28 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-17 11:46 ` Peter Stephenson
2008-06-17 12:05 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-19 9:37 ` Jun T.
2008-06-19 9:54 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-19 16:00 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-19 16:20 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-19 17:14 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-19 9:58 ` Peter Stephenson
2008-06-19 12:29 ` Richard Hartmann
2008-06-19 16:04 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-19 16:10 ` Mikael Magnusson
2008-06-19 16:27 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-19 17:25 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-19 17:20 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-17 10:45 ` Richard Hartmann
2008-06-17 11:38 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-17 11:19 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-17 11:57 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-17 12:35 ` Vincent Lefevre [this message]
2008-06-17 12:46 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-17 13:02 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-17 13:20 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-17 14:33 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-17 14:53 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-17 15:49 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-17 14:35 ` Stephane Chazelas
2008-06-17 15:05 ` Vincent Lefevre
2008-06-17 10:54 ` Vincent Lefevre
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