[9fans] life's too short

[9fans] life's too short

[Russ Cox]

Public service announcement:

g% pull mail/lib/pipeto.lib
g% cat >$mail/pipeto <<EOF
#!/bin/rc

# standard library
. /mail/lib/pipeto.lib $*

if(~ `{cat $D/from | tr A-Z a-z} ravage@*ssz.com)
	exit 0

spool
exit 0
EOF
g% chmod 775 $mail/pipeto
g% echo test | mail $user
g%

Re: [9fans] life's too short

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 62 bytes --]

Thanks a lot. I'm pulling and looking forward to install it.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1585 bytes --]

From: "Russ Cox" <rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] life's too short
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:11:04 -0400
Message-ID: <21a55d642f78f53fb753f9a156a18846@plan9.bell-labs.com>

Public service announcement:

g% pull mail/lib/pipeto.lib
g% cat >$mail/pipeto <<EOF
#!/bin/rc

# standard library
. /mail/lib/pipeto.lib $*

if(~ `{cat $D/from | tr A-Z a-z} ravage@*ssz.com)
	exit 0

spool
exit 0
EOF
g% chmod 775 $mail/pipeto
g% echo test | mail $user
g%

Re: [9fans] life's too short

[Chris Hollis-Locke]

>Thanks a lot. I'm pulling and looking forward to install it.

you bought the thong then

[9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Jim Choate]

Hi,

Perhaps I've missed something obvious, an example in a man page perhaps;
but...

I'm trying to grab a snapshot of the initial boot screen from the
bootfloppy. I am assuming that I can/could use this same process to grab
screenshots during/after the install as well. I can of course simply take
a digital image of the screen but that seems rather lo-tech.

The reason is that I'm writing an article to be published and this is
pretty much the final stage.

Thanks.


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[matt]

cat /dev/screen > /tmp/grab01

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 matt@proweb.co.uk wrote:

> cat /dev/screen > /tmp/grab01

Cool, I knew I could do that but is this a raw dump or a jpg or what? If
it's not a standard format what utility converts it? I don't see any
examples of how to process the actual data.

What's the standard graphics viewer for P9?

For that matter what's the best tool to play .wav and .mp3 files?


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[matt]

man file

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Jim Choate wrote:

>
> On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 matt@proweb.co.uk wrote:
>
> > cat /dev/screen > /tmp/grab01

Try that under drawterm and you get a screen full of 1's and 0's. Very
ugly.

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

>> > cat /dev/screen > /tmp/grab01
>
> Try that under drawterm and you get a screen full of 1's and 0's. Very
> ugly.

That's why I love computer science, it's all 1s and 0s.

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Kenji Arisawa]

By the way, is it possible to get screen shot with mouse cursor?

Kenji Arisawa

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[mirtchov]

> By the way, is it possible to get screen shot with mouse cursor?
>
> Kenji Arisawa

no...  the mouse cursor is drawn by hardware so it's separate from
display->image...  it isn't impossible to fake it, though -- just grab
the cursor location from /dev/mouse and draw() a plan9 cursor mask
(static for the most part) at this point


andrey

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Kenji Arisawa]

>
>> By the way, is it possible to get screen shot with mouse cursor?
>>
>> Kenji Arisawa
>
> no...  the mouse cursor is drawn by hardware so it's separate from
> display->image...  it isn't impossible to fake it, though -- just grab
> the cursor location from /dev/mouse and draw() a plan9 cursor mask
> (static for the most part) at this point
>
>
> andrey

Thank you. I will try.

Kenji Arisawa

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[paurea]

>>
>>> By the way, is it possible to get screen shot with mouse cursor?
>>>
>>> Kenji Arisawa

Yup. with vmware :-).
			Gorka

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Kenji Arisawa]

>>>
>>>> By the way, is it possible to get screen shot with mouse cursor?
>>>>
>>>> Kenji Arisawa
>
> Yup. with vmware :-).
> 			Gorka

Yes, such an environment is really useful in writing manual.
We can get snapshots of installation process that are impossible
on native OS.
I am using Virtual PC for this purpose.
I really want Plan 9 can work with network on Virtual PC.

Kenji Arisawa

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[jmk]

On Tue Oct  7 07:44:52 EDT 2003, arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> By the way, is it possible to get screen shot with mouse cursor?
> >>>>
> >>>> Kenji Arisawa
> >
> > Yup. with vmware :-).
> > 			Gorka
>
> Yes, such an environment is really useful in writing manual.
> We can get snapshots of installation process that are impossible
> on native OS.
> I am using Virtual PC for this purpose.
> I really want Plan 9 can work with network on Virtual PC.
>
> Kenji Arisawa

When I read that I thought "Oh no, here's the Virtual PC question
again", so I had a go at making it work. I downloaded the trial version
from Microsoft (yes, they now own the Windows version, not Connectix),
it's version 5.2. The ethernet and host chipset emulated have changed
to ones Plan 9 has drivers for, as it does for the video adapter. I had
to make some small changes to the PCI code (I thought I'd fixed it
before, but apparently not); there are updated /sys/src/9/pc/pci.c
and /sys/src/boot/pc/pci.c on sources.

After that it works fine. The video is restricted on Plan 9 to be only
8-bits deep and doesn't know about the extra 4MB the framebuffer has,
but that's just because we never did the code in aux/vga for the Trio64
chip at any higher depths. It's left as an exercise for the user.

If you have any problems and you get back to me before the trial version
times out I will try to help.

--jim

P.S. I'm writing this in an virtual PC.

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[arisawa]

> When I read that I thought "Oh no, here's the Virtual PC question
> again", so I had a go at making it work. I downloaded the trial version
> ....

Jim, I really thank you!

Kenji Arisawa

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[a]

this is very exciting, however it seems the boot floppy generated by
the web page does not pick up the new drivers? or rather, i'm not
able to see my ethernet device (via ls #l). i'm running the Mac OS X
version, 6.1 (which, sadly, MS also owns). Win2K tells me it's got a
Intel 21041 Based PCI Ethernet Adaptor. notably, the boot floppy
also fails to start rio, despite the fact that i got the needed
entry for /lib/vgadb off 9fans quite some time ago. am i just SOL
on the Mac version?

well, VN's got a Inferno 4e edition for Mac i can play with... :-)
ア

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[jmk]

On Fri Oct 10 20:23:53 EDT 2003, a@9srv.net wrote:
> this is very exciting, however it seems the boot floppy generated by
> the web page does not pick up the new drivers? or rather, i'm not
> able to see my ethernet device (via ls #l). i'm running the Mac OS X
> version, 6.1 (which, sadly, MS also owns). Win2K tells me it's got a
> Intel 21041 Based PCI Ethernet Adaptor. notably, the boot floppy
> also fails to start rio, despite the fact that i got the needed
> entry for /lib/vgadb off 9fans quite some time ago. am i just SOL
> on the Mac version?
> 
> well, VN's got a Inferno 4e edition for Mac i can play with... :-)
> ア

I only put up the source fixes to the PCI routines on sources,
nothing was built.

If it says 21041 then it sounds like that is still using the old
'hardware' which was replaced in the Windows 5.2 version with a 21140.
You can probably find the correct list of emulated hardware in
the tech. ref. document or by searching on the web.

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[arisawa]

> If it says 21041 then it sounds like that is still using the old
> 'hardware' which was replaced in the Windows 5.2 version with a 21140.
> You can probably find the correct list of emulated hardware in
> the tech. ref. document or by searching on the web.
>
Thanks Jim, but my situation is same as a@9srv.net.
It seems 'ethernet controller' of Latest version 6.1 of VirtualPC for
MacOSX
is Intel 21041.

I really appreciate your effort, Jim...

Kenji Arisawa

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[jmk]

On Sat Oct 11 18:04:52 EDT 2003, arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp wrote:
> > If it says 21041 then it sounds like that is still using the old
> > 'hardware' which was replaced in the Windows 5.2 version with a 21140.
> > You can probably find the correct list of emulated hardware in
> > the tech. ref. document or by searching on the web.
> >
> Thanks Jim, but my situation is same as a@9srv.net.
> It seems 'ethernet controller' of Latest version 6.1 of VirtualPC for
> MacOSX
> is Intel 21041.
>
> I really appreciate your effort, Jim...
>
> Kenji Arisawa

Then someone will have to write a driver for the 21041.
I don't have a datasheet for that part and I have no 'hardware'
to test on.

--jim

[9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Jim Choate]

And while we're talking about how the display works, when there is an
error condition you get those little black blocks with text in them, how
do you refresh after it screws your display up?

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Jim Choate]

"man file"

Doesn't answer the question. If this is the most help you can provide,
stop please.

Been there , done that. Not a single example just a bunch of gibberish
about file formats. No examples, nothing.

I just love the bug section...


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Jim Choate wrote:

>
> And while we're talking about how the display works, when there is an
> error condition you get those little black blocks with text in them, how
> do you refresh after it screws your display up?
>
>  -- --
>
> God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
> can't prove it.
>                           Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu
>
>       ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
>       www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com
>

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Jim Choate]

> On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 matt@proweb.co.uk wrote:
>
> > cat /dev/screen > /tmp/grab01

It's actually...

cp /dev/screen /tmp/grab01

Just another perfect example why this group is inbred.

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[matt]

please die

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9 bytes --]

You first

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1757 bytes --]

From: matt@proweb.co.uk
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 17:03:22 +0100
Message-ID: <d7ccef47e426bdd0a4b0bafa60e6ce1a@juice.thebigchoice.com>

please die

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Hugo Santos]

This looks like the openbsd lists :-)

Hugo

On Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 05:03 PM, David Presotto wrote:

> You first
> From: matt@proweb.co.uk
> Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003  5:03:22 PM Europe/Lisbon
> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots
> Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
>
>
> please die
>

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Hugo Santos wrote:

> This looks like the openbsd lists :-)

It looks like every social group I've ever participated in ;)

I suspect it's healthy when there is disagreement, and a sign of trouble
when there isn't. Conflict motivates people to do things, though they
sometimes get confused as to the exact line for what is acceptable.

It's really no big deal, so long as P9 keeps growing!

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi Jim,

> > This looks like the openbsd lists :-)
>
> It looks like every social group I've ever participated in ;)

Ever get bored by them all being the same?

> I suspect it's healthy when there is disagreement, and a sign of
> trouble when there isn't.

Yes, when the disagreement is about technically interesting things, or
even about the colours chosen for the windows and why.  And when the
disagreement is expressed politely with justification.

But not the gobby name-calling that c.o.plan9 often descends into these
days.

> It's really no big deal, so long as P9 keeps growing!

Plan 9 can keep growing without c.o.plan9 being like all the other
social groups you've participiated in.  ;-)

Cheers,


Ralph.

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Dan Cross]

Hugo Santos <hugo_santos@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>
> This looks like the openbsd lists :-)

No there isn't enough megalomania for it to be an OpenBSD list.  Oh,
wait, Choate provides all that.  Nevermind; I stand corrected.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 matt@proweb.co.uk wrote:

> please die

Nope. Suffer.

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Dan Cross]

Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
>
>
> > On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 matt@proweb.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > > cat /dev/screen > /tmp/grab01
>
> It's actually...
>
> cp /dev/screen /tmp/grab01

Umm, don't those do roughly the same thing?  Sure, cp has a few
additional bells and whistles, but the loops to actually copy
the data are nearly identical.

> Just another perfect example why this group is inbred.

I guess you do't `speak C', as they say.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Dan Cross wrote:

> Umm, don't those do roughly the same thing?

Try it.

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Dan Cross]

Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> Try it.

I did.  Worked for me.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[boyd]

    Perhaps I've missed something obvious, an example in a man page perhaps; but...

land a goshen ...

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[mirtchov]

> I'm trying to grab a snapshot of the initial boot screen from the

if that's the rio that comes up after the installation (glenda+acme
and docs) then do:

	togif < /dev/screen > $home/scr.gif

if you want to take a snapshot of the booting screen beforehand (with
'root is from:' prompts and whatnot) you're better off using a camera,
or copy/pasting the text as it comes off the serial console :)

andrey

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Jim Choate]

Hi Andrey,

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca wrote:

> > I'm trying to grab a snapshot of the initial boot screen from the
>
> if that's the rio that comes up after the installation (glenda+acme
> and docs) then do:
>
> 	togif < /dev/screen > $home/scr.gif
>
> if you want to take a snapshot of the booting screen beforehand (with
> 'root is from:' prompts and whatnot) you're better off using a camera,
> or copy/pasting the text as it comes off the serial console :)

Thank you very much for the clear and direct answer. I intend to include
this in future H18 How To's. Can I have your permission to credit you for
this?


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

[9fans] Observation about sharing network/grid

[Jim Choate]

It has been proposed to only import those grids one likes. Unfortunatley
this won't work unless you're intending to demand that others limit their
expansion choices to your choices. I suspect most people won't 'like' you
very much on that point.

Let's assume that we have three grids named A, B, & C.

A doesn't 'like' C, but B does. A 'likes' B.

A <-> B <-> C

is equivalent through transivity to:

A <-> C

Back to the drawing board on that one....


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Observation about sharing network/grid

[Dan Cross]

Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> It has been proposed to only import those grids one likes. Unfortunatley
> this won't work unless you're intending to demand that others limit their
> expansion choices to your choices. I suspect most people won't 'like' you
> very much on that point.
>
> Let's assume that we have three grids named A, B, & C.
>
> A doesn't 'like' C, but B does. A 'likes' B.
>
> A <-> B <-> C
>
> is equivalent through transivity to:
>
> A <-> C
>
> Back to the drawing board on that one....

Umm, who ever said import was transitive?

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Observation about sharing network/grid

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Dan Cross wrote:

> Umm, who ever said import was transitive?

It's the export of the import, and Plan 9 has transivity built into it.
Just like NFS does. The transivity isn't in the control of the person
doing the export to the next person doing the export. That makes it
transitive. Once the person can get the bits they can send them out
without the source even being aware (eg proxy).

Further, without this sort of transivity the utility of grid computing
(especially in a public sharing context) is pretty much nil. Among other
things it causes way too much network traffic.

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Observation about sharing network/grid

[Dan Cross]

Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Dan Cross wrote:
> > Umm, who ever said import was transitive?
>
> It's the export of the import, and Plan 9 has transivity built into it.
> Just like NFS does. The transivity isn't in the control of the person
> doing the export to the next person doing the export. That makes it
> transitive. Once the person can get the bits they can send them out
> without the source even being aware (eg proxy).

Uhh.  I import into a namespace.  I can export another namespace that
doesn't include whatever I imported.  So import doesn't have to be
`transitive,' as I said.  Your analogy with NFS doesn't make sense,
because in Unix-land (where I assume you're talking about), you have
a single, global namespace.  Not so in Plan 9.

> Further, without this sort of transivity the utility of grid computing
> (especially in a public sharing context) is pretty much nil. Among other
> things it causes way too much network traffic.

Uh, okay.

Note to the world: I've finally started filtering out Choate.  Hooray!
I get to join the rest of the masses in ignoring his inanities!

	- Dan C.

(Actually, I'm filtering him into another folder, so that I have something
to laugh at every now and again when I'm feeling bored.)

Re: [9fans] Observation about sharing network/grid

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Dan Cross wrote:

> Uhh.  I import into a namespace.  I can export another namespace that
> doesn't include whatever I imported.  So import doesn't have to be
> `transitive,' as I said.

Dan, you're creating a strawman. Changing the point of discussion and then
claiming it's the same.

Your assertion as to what I said is simply wrong.

Further, what you do doesn't map to everyone else's needs.

So sad.


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Observation about sharing network/grid

[boyd]

    Note to the world: I've finally started filtering out Choate.  Hooray!
    I get to join the rest of the masses in ignoring his inanities!

yeah, spamoff has a 'trash' function now.  i could just add it in or
change one line and bounce 'em.

Re: [9fans] Observation about sharing network/grid

[Charles Forsyth]

>>Just like NFS does. The transivity isn't in the control of the person

this touches an old nerve: NFS didn't (at least in Sun's implementation).
indeed, it limited exports to a physical file system, so that every machine
needed to know the mounting hierarchy of every other.  scales up well,
as you can well imagine!  anyhow, to get transitivity,
you need to work at it (patches possibly available on request, if i can find
them in my archive) and even then it doesn't work completely
(but it's much better than nothing), until you patch the clients...
one annoying thing is that it never became part of the traditional Jumbo Patch.

still, you're right: NFS could have done that, and perhaps the suenix
re-implementations do.

[9fans] From the writings of Mark V. Choatey

[Andrew Simmons]

300M is a flaw in the first stone. The transivity isn't in the late 1800's
and how that maps onto new technology. As to megalomania, I'd say your
behaviour is more akin to thinking oneself to be based on principle and not
more criminal but examples of both abound. My response, as with you
butthead, is to find better ways, this means those who stick to the next
reprobate. I don't start it but I'll damn well finish it if I cause damage
in a theatre, even with speech. The point of the most snide and stupid
comments I've ever heard from a commercial rep to a world where business
now controls the very system that was the growth of socialism in the first
place. When somebody abuses that then nail their scummy ass to the VN rep
who made one of the goals of this country the pursuit of happiness. Don't
address the issue, but the people who did the person accountable for their
behavior yet doesn't recognize that other electrons acting in proxy for
that person in that example who was without sind od?

Re: [9fans] From the writings of Mark V. Choatey

[Scott Schwartz]

Ok, enough is enough.  Let's please keep the flames out of 9fans.
They're off topic, and just plain boring.

Re: [9fans] Observation about sharing network/grid

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Charles Forsyth wrote:

> still, you're right: NFS could have done that, and perhaps the suenix
> re-implementations do.

NFS has been doing that for at least two yeas on Solaris, HP/UX, and AIX.
Might want to review the man pages. When I used to work for Tivoli we had
to make sure this was turned off because of some low level sys call
conflicts with Tivoli during installs from NFS images. Wasn't a big deal
since most sites didn't see it as very usefull.

In a public namespace/filesystem context however the importance changes
dramatically. If you don't allow transitivity in the mounts (and
lazy-update is another must have in the real world) then the source
servers get completely bogged down. Just imagine trying to export the
Gutenburg Project by forcing everyone to go to the project itself. By
using this technology a handfull of sites around the country could make
the primary connections and then export those out to their immediate
region. Then as users hit the second level server, only files that have
never been hit before (or have changed content even one bit) need be
re-propogated.

This whole 'a few sites share to another set of few sites' is the heart of
'small world networks'. It allows the network to scale without traffic
growing with it, provided the number of connections per node is not too
small or too large. Sort of like Goldilocks ;)


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] Observation about sharing network/grid

[Charles Forsyth]

>>NFS has been doing that for at least two yeas on Solaris, HP/UX, and AIX.
>>Might want to review the man pages. When I used to work for Tivoli we had

that would explain it.  our solaris system `pazzo' is older than that.
much had changed even then.  i see that `exporting' is out, and `sharing' is in.
quite.  very touchy-feely.  actually, that was one of the things about Sun's
Joyless announcement that worried me a bit:
something about him instilling something in
the hearts --and souls-- [emphasis mine] of those working for Sun.
what WAS going on there?  even my friends who worked for Microsoft
never spoke of anything like that.
(it was always about shares or share options with them.)

[9fans] And what about secure computing?

[Jim Choate]

One of the problems we've been looking at on H18 is how to handle security
issues with regard to users programs and where they run.

The current idea is that each process has a 'security' tag that sets some
level of sensitivity with regard to public exposure. And then a 'trust'
parameter for each machine or cluster of machines.

So a site might have processes running at verious levels of 'security' and
then assign them to clusters based on 'trust'. So internal accounting
programs would run only on machines that had the highest trust level,
whereas a webpage might be accessible to all and thus processes related to
it might run in a public cluster of processors.


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] And what about secure computing?

[Dan Cross]

Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> One of the problems we've been looking at on H18 is how to handle security
> issues with regard to users programs and where they run.
>
> The current idea is that each process has a 'security' tag that sets some
> level of sensitivity with regard to public exposure. And then a 'trust'
> parameter for each machine or cluster of machines.
>
> So a site might have processes running at verious levels of 'security' and
> then assign them to clusters based on 'trust'. So internal accounting
> programs would run only on machines that had the highest trust level,
> whereas a webpage might be accessible to all and thus processes related to
> it might run in a public cluster of processors.

Dude, have you actually implemented a SINGLE THING yet?  All you do
is posture and make bombastic claims, but this `hangar 18' thing has
been around for what, over a year now, and hasn't produced one single
thing of merit.

I know this is going to come as a shock to you, so brace yourself:
No one listens to you, because you're all talk.  If you had produced
something six months ago, maybe some people would have listened.  But
you didn't.  So you've lost all credibility.  Now would you please
get lost?

	- Dan C.

[9fans] The small world approach of H18

[Jim Choate]

What we envision is a agent has control of a auth server and some amount
of resources they use for their own use. Each node has only a handfull of
connections (we're looking at ln(#_conn) currently). Each node decides for
itself what it wants to do. Encrypting the various connections between a
node and the other nodes it connects to is critical. It needs to be the
default instead of clear-text, clear-text needs to be supported for those
who just must know what is going on. This approach is called 'small world
networks' (or you know it as the Kevin Bacon Game).

This means that the two gateway machines for two clusters would have a
single shared key. All traffic would be wrapped in that. The actual data
in the packets so wrapped would have keys based not only on apps (perhaps)
but also the users. This provides several layers of anonymity, and in
addition brings the DMCA in against those who try to crack the shell.

H18 has decided that it's A's problem to manage it's connections, and B's
problem to manage their connections. And there's no reason C needs to know
anything about any of the A-B dealings, even if C happens to be carrying
said traffic. We intend to fully support anonymity.

Each node is the king of its own little kingdom, the connection between
two kingdoms is a compromise between those two kingdoms and doesn't (and
shouldn't) be extended to any other node.


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] The small world approach of H18

[boyd]

where is my DSM IV?

Re: [9fans] The small world approach of H18

[D. Brownlee]

at your doctor's office? ;-)

boyd@sdgm.net wrote:

>where is my DSM IV?
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Q: About screenshots

[Dan Cross]

Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> writes:
> Thank you very much for the clear and direct answer. I intend to include
> this in future H18 How To's. Can I have your permission to credit you for
> this?

I love this guy.  From the 9fans archives:

----
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Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 18:01:50 -0600 (CST)
>From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
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I didn't 'insult' anyone.

On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, andrey mirtchovski wrote:

> are you sure you are insulting the right people?

Have you considered suicide?

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage@ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

----

Now he wants to credit him in a `paper' he's writing.

	- Dan C.

[9fans] cat v cp

[Jim Choate]

The problem with,

cat /dev/screen > /tmp/screen01

went away after a reboot. At the same time,

cp /dev/screen /tmp/screen02

worked just fine before the reboot.

After a reboot they both behave the same. My box has been up about three
weeks and I rebooted this morning as part of the testing of these.

Hmmmm, something is getting out of sync over time. Once I'm done I'll do
some long term testing and see if I can recreate reliably.


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

[9fans] Update on cat v cp & /dev/screen

[Jim Choate]

I have recreated the problem by allowing a drawterm connection to stay
open for just over half a day (I can't say exactly because I didn't note
the start time of last reboot yesterday). Also, it appears that if you do
the command from drawterm before you do it from a local cli the local cli
will then fail on subsequent commands.

I am using a basic image from June 18 that was last pulled about 3 weeks
ago. The system went through a complete rebuild at that time.

I see several potential paths of cause:

- hardware
- bad os build somehow unique to this combination
- an actual bug in P9
- something about the combo of drawterm and SuSE 8.0

Once I've completed the curent phase of work I'm in I will be able to
reload the box in toto and re-test.

It will be interesting to see if the middle mouse button will work in
drawterm on a reload as well with respect to this SuSE 8.0 load.

In addition the plan is to update this machine to SuSE 8.2 in the next
week or so.

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

[9fans] Q about screenshots

[Jim Choate]

And just exactly what happens if the cp occurs while the screen is in the
middle of an update.

Does it grab the old frame, wait for the new frame to complete, or just
give you a gibberish dump of the interim buffer contents which are almost
certainly worthless?


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com