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* [9fans] scrollbar
@ 2004-03-04 10:48 Tiit Lankots
  2004-03-04 10:54 ` matt
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Tiit Lankots @ 2004-03-04 10:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Plan 9 Mailing List (E-mail)

Windows/MacOS constantly place the scrollbar on right.
X/Plan9 constantly place it on left.

Is there some reasoning behind this logic?

Tiit@curious


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 10:48 [9fans] scrollbar Tiit Lankots
@ 2004-03-04 10:54 ` matt
  2004-03-04 13:38 ` boyd, rounin
  2004-03-04 17:15 ` Rob Pike
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: matt @ 2004-03-04 10:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

yeah, Windows/Mac is shite



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 10:48 [9fans] scrollbar Tiit Lankots
  2004-03-04 10:54 ` matt
@ 2004-03-04 13:38 ` boyd, rounin
  2004-03-04 17:15 ` Rob Pike
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-03-04 13:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Windows/MacOS constantly place the scrollbar on right.

they got it wrong.

> Is there some reasoning behind this logic?

my logic is that if you write left to right the scroll bar should be on the
left.

and vice versa.

it minimises mouse movement.

i don't know why X or plan 9 or 8th ed chose this.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 10:48 [9fans] scrollbar Tiit Lankots
  2004-03-04 10:54 ` matt
  2004-03-04 13:38 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2004-03-04 17:15 ` Rob Pike
  2004-03-04 17:22   ` Rob Pike
                     ` (2 more replies)
  2 siblings, 3 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2004-03-04 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Windows/MacOS constantly place the scrollbar on right.
> X/Plan9 constantly place it on left.
>
> Is there some reasoning behind this logic?

when i wrote my first scroll bar, back around 1980, i'd only seen
them on the left because that's where xerox put them.  later, when
they started appearing on the right, i wondered why, since it was
obvious that with a left-to-right language the odds are the mouse
is closer to the left edge than the right.  (as i type this, the entire
left half of my window is blank.)  so you'll have to ask the windows
and apple guys why they reversed the smalltalk decision.

-rob



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 17:15 ` Rob Pike
@ 2004-03-04 17:22   ` Rob Pike
  2004-03-04 17:43   ` rog
  2004-03-04 19:04   ` [9fans] scrollbar splite
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2004-03-04 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> (as i type this, the entire
> left half of my window is blank.)


as i typed that, i was very sleepy.  i meant to say that the
right side was blank, as it is again in this window.

yawn....

-rob



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 17:15 ` Rob Pike
  2004-03-04 17:22   ` Rob Pike
@ 2004-03-04 17:43   ` rog
  2004-03-04 20:21     ` splite
  2004-03-04 19:04   ` [9fans] scrollbar splite
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: rog @ 2004-03-04 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

the only plausible reason i can come up with is that if you're drawing
the scrollbar only when you need to and you add the scrollbar on the
left, then all the text will jump rightwards.

it's interesting (ok, ok, it's deadly dull, but i'll continue anyway)
that when steve jobs did nextstep (post leaving apple) he put the
scrollbars on the left; when nextstep became macos X, the scrollbars
were moved to the right.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 17:15 ` Rob Pike
  2004-03-04 17:22   ` Rob Pike
  2004-03-04 17:43   ` rog
@ 2004-03-04 19:04   ` splite
  2004-03-04 19:07     ` Charles Forsyth
                       ` (2 more replies)
  2 siblings, 3 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: splite @ 2004-03-04 19:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 09:15:07AM -0800, Rob Pike wrote:
> >Windows/MacOS constantly place the scrollbar on right.
> >X/Plan9 constantly place it on left.
> >
> >Is there some reasoning behind this logic?
> 
> when i wrote my first scroll bar, back around 1980, i'd only seen
> them on the left because that's where xerox put them.  later, when
> they started appearing on the right, i wondered why, since it was
> obvious that with a left-to-right language the odds are the mouse
> is closer to the left edge than the right.  (as i type this, the entire
> left half of my window is blank.)  so you'll have to ask the windows
> and apple guys why they reversed the smalltalk decision.

Why ask the Windows guys?  They likely just copied the Apple guys.

My guess would be rightie aesthetics.

As someone mentioned, having the cursor hotspot on the left edge means that
the cursor will usually obstruct some text with a left-side scrollbar.
They could have used a right-pointing cursor instead, but that looks
and feels odd to a right-handed mouse user.  There's also the feeling
(at least for righties) that you're "reaching over" the window contents
to get to the scrollbar.

Further, precisely because most (Western) text is left-justified, the mostly
empty right side of the window helps the scrollbar stand out as a distinct
target, rather than being subsumed in the left-side clutter.  If the mouse
is already in the window, it's also easier for righties to hit a right-side
scrollbar as the hand can position the mouse more precisely when the fingers
and thumb are curling in toward the palm.

Personally, I find it less distracting when reading text to have the
scrollbar out of the way on the right.  My eyes seldom have to traverse
the window all the way to the right edge, but they're constantly refocusing
on the left edge, which is easier when it's uniform.

(Sorry to go all Tognazzini on y'all.)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 19:04   ` [9fans] scrollbar splite
@ 2004-03-04 19:07     ` Charles Forsyth
  2004-03-04 19:17       ` rog
  2004-03-04 19:15     ` rog
  2004-03-04 21:39     ` Bakul Shah
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: Charles Forsyth @ 2004-03-04 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>>Personally, I find it less distracting when reading text to have the
>>scrollbar out of the way on the right.  My eyes seldom have to traverse

i find it less distracting to have a less distracting scrollbar,
without all the distracting bits and bobs,
and then it can stay on the left!  i hardly notice it under plan 9
until i need it.

it also seems to make more sense, or perhaps
look better, i'd say, in acme for the scrollbar
to sit on the right, since it can also marks the frame edge.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 19:04   ` [9fans] scrollbar splite
  2004-03-04 19:07     ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2004-03-04 19:15     ` rog
  2004-03-04 20:56       ` splite
  2004-03-04 21:39     ` Bakul Shah
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: rog @ 2004-03-04 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

sorry, this is veering sharply off-topic, but i have
to say the thing that annoys me most about scrollbars
on the right is that it forces me to have the entire
window on screen - i can't read the text if the left hand
side is off screen, and i can't scroll it if the right hand side is
(and often if you resize it smaller, a horizontal scrollbar,
that bane of humanity, appears to make things even worse)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 19:07     ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2004-03-04 19:17       ` rog
  2004-03-04 21:10         ` Charles Forsyth
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: rog @ 2004-03-04 19:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> it also seems to make more sense, or perhaps
> look better, i'd say, in acme for the scrollbar
> to sit on the right, since it can also marks the frame edge.

you mean the left, i presume?



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 17:43   ` rog
@ 2004-03-04 20:21     ` splite
  2004-03-05  4:42       ` ron minnich
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: splite @ 2004-03-04 20:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 05:43:54PM +0000, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> the only plausible reason i can come up with is that if you're drawing
> the scrollbar only when you need to and you add the scrollbar on the
> left, then all the text will jump rightwards.

Not an issue for Apple; Mac OS scrollbars were always drawn in the active
window, even if all the content was visible.  Inactive windows still had
the scrollbar space allocated, but the controls weren't drawn in.

http://toastytech.com/guis/moremacwrd1desk.gif

> it's interesting (ok, ok, it's deadly dull, but i'll continue anyway)
> that when steve jobs did nextstep (post leaving apple) he put the
> scrollbars on the left; when nextstep became macos X, the scrollbars
> were moved to the right.

The Dock was enough to confuse Mac OS users without moving the scrollbars
too.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 19:15     ` rog
@ 2004-03-04 20:56       ` splite
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: splite @ 2004-03-04 20:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 07:15:18PM +0000, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> sorry, this is veering sharply off-topic, but i have

Oh, I dunno.  I think Comparative GUIology is relevant, especially where
Plan 9 diverges from every "major" platform.

> to say the thing that annoys me most about scrollbars
> on the right is that it forces me to have the entire
> window on screen - i can't read the text if the left hand
> side is off screen, and i can't scroll it if the right hand side is
> (and often if you resize it smaller, a horizontal scrollbar,
> that bane of humanity, appears to make things even worse)

I considered that before but decided the argument was bogus.  If you have
unused window area on the right, make the window narrower.  If not, why
cover up the right side of the window?  If you truly don't care about the
right-side content, then what do you lose by making the window narrower?
You won't have need to scroll horizontally anyway.

I realize that some might move windows partially off the right side of the
screen as a space-saving measure, but that seems more like an argument for
better window management than against right-side scrollbars.

I'm really not advocating for right-side scrollbars; I was just guessing
as to why Apple might have put them there.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 19:17       ` rog
@ 2004-03-04 21:10         ` Charles Forsyth
  2004-03-04 22:28           ` boyd, rounin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: Charles Forsyth @ 2004-03-04 21:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5 bytes --]

yes

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1795 bytes --]

From: rog@vitanuova.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] scrollbar
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:17:05 0000
Message-ID: <9e7e4c9c83f013f1c8475682eda42b0b@vitanuova.com>

> it also seems to make more sense, or perhaps
> look better, i'd say, in acme for the scrollbar
> to sit on the right, since it can also marks the frame edge.

you mean the left, i presume?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 19:04   ` [9fans] scrollbar splite
  2004-03-04 19:07     ` Charles Forsyth
  2004-03-04 19:15     ` rog
@ 2004-03-04 21:39     ` Bakul Shah
  2004-03-04 21:51       ` andrey mirtchovski
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2004-03-04 21:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Personally, I find it less distracting when reading text to have the
> scrollbar out of the way on the right.  My eyes seldom have to traverse
> the window all the way to the right edge, but they're constantly refocusing
> on the left edge, which is easier when it's uniform.

But why use a scrollbar?  Why move the mouse to
any edge if all you want to do is to show a
different part through a window?  Panning would be
so much easier (especially if combined with
increasing scroll/pan speed proportional to the
distance travelled by the mouse).


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 21:39     ` Bakul Shah
@ 2004-03-04 21:51       ` andrey mirtchovski
  2004-03-04 22:10         ` splite
  2004-03-04 22:40         ` boyd, rounin
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-03-04 21:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


> But why use a scrollbar?  Why move the mouse to
> any edge if all you want to do is to show a
> different part through a window?  Panning would be
> so much easier (especially if combined with
> increasing scroll/pan speed proportional to the
> distance travelled by the mouse).

i've run out of mouse buttons for panning in acme...  unless we do it
with alt+button :)

we could go with gestures too -- a clockwise circle with the mouse
scrolls up, counterclockwise scrolls down; the larger the circle the
more you scroll (or the faster you rotate the mouse :).

this will help touch-screen users since they won't have to hold up to
15 buttons at once while hitting the screen with the little pointy
pen.

andrey



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 21:51       ` andrey mirtchovski
@ 2004-03-04 22:10         ` splite
  2004-03-04 22:40         ` boyd, rounin
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: splite @ 2004-03-04 22:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 02:51:07PM -0700, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> Bakul Shah <bakul@BitBlocks.com> wrote:
> > But why use a scrollbar?  Why move the mouse to

I don't, myself.  I turn 'em off on my terminal windows.

> > any edge if all you want to do is to show a
> > different part through a window?  Panning would be
> > so much easier (especially if combined with
> > increasing scroll/pan speed proportional to the
> > distance travelled by the mouse).

Panning is fine for small movements, but there's a tendency to overshoot
big movements because you can't see what's "coming up".  Perhaps if it
were combined with some sort of pop-up indicator of where you are in the
document.

The big problem is that panning doesn't allow for discontinuous movement.
Think of the difference between cassette tapes and compact discs when you
want to skip ahead two songs.

> i've run out of mouse buttons for panning in acme...  unless we do it
> with alt+button :)

Yep.  Meta key chords rule.

> we could go with gestures too -- a clockwise circle with the mouse
> scrolls up, counterclockwise scrolls down; the larger the circle the
> more you scroll (or the faster you rotate the mouse :).

Man, you think you have RSI trouble now...

> this will help touch-screen users since they won't have to hold up to
> 15 buttons at once while hitting the screen with the little pointy
> pen.

True, but they won't be able to see if they've scrolled far enough with
their hand in the way.  I think that's why jog dials were invented.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 21:10         ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2004-03-04 22:28           ` boyd, rounin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-03-04 22:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

_fumbling the future_ tells some.

working/meeting with the guys who did it tells more.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 21:51       ` andrey mirtchovski
  2004-03-04 22:10         ` splite
@ 2004-03-04 22:40         ` boyd, rounin
  2004-03-05  0:33           ` Derek Fawcus
  2004-03-05  1:16           ` Geoff Collyer
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-03-04 22:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> i've run out of mouse buttons for panning in acme...  unless we do it
> with alt+button :)

i've always been wating for morse code ..



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 22:40         ` boyd, rounin
@ 2004-03-05  0:33           ` Derek Fawcus
  2004-03-05 11:33             ` boyd, rounin
  2004-03-05  1:16           ` Geoff Collyer
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: Derek Fawcus @ 2004-03-05  0:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 11:40:27PM +0100, boyd, rounin wrote:
> 
> i've always been wating for morse code ..

So if the box seems to have hung,  one keys/clicks:

   dah dit dah dit   dah dah dit dah ?


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 22:40         ` boyd, rounin
  2004-03-05  0:33           ` Derek Fawcus
@ 2004-03-05  1:16           ` Geoff Collyer
  2004-03-05  1:59             ` andrey mirtchovski
                               ` (2 more replies)
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Geoff Collyer @ 2004-03-05  1:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

If you long for morse code, try using a Mac with a one-button mouse:
click click-click click.

Gesture recognition may be a bad idea; if computers could recognise my
gestures, any Windows machines I use would be smoking heaps (I got yer
gesture, right here, Gates.)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05  1:16           ` Geoff Collyer
@ 2004-03-05  1:59             ` andrey mirtchovski
  2004-03-05  3:45               ` David Presotto
  2004-03-05  2:00             ` andrey mirtchovski
  2004-03-05 11:36             ` boyd, rounin
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-03-05  1:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Gesture recognition may be a bad idea; if computers could recognise my
> gestures, any Windows machines I use would be smoking heaps (I got yer
> gesture, right here, Gates.)

the "hitchiker's guide.." should be made an official religion.  after
all it has the answer of the ultimate question.  among its lines we
read (what inspired my original gesture post, s/radios/computer/):

	The machine was rather difficult to operate.  For years radios
	had been operated by means of pressing buttons and turning
	dials; then as the technology became more sophisticated the
	controls were made touch-sensitive - you merely had to brush
	the panels with your fingers; now all you had to do was wave
	your hand in the general direction of the components and hope.
	It saved a lot of muscular expenditure of course, but meant
	that you had to sit infuriatingly still if you wanted to keep
	listening to the same programme.

andrey



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05  1:16           ` Geoff Collyer
  2004-03-05  1:59             ` andrey mirtchovski
@ 2004-03-05  2:00             ` andrey mirtchovski
  2004-03-05  9:14               ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz
  2004-03-05 11:36             ` boyd, rounin
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-03-05  2:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Gesture recognition may be a bad idea; if computers could recognise my
> gestures, any Windows machines I use would be smoking heaps (I got yer
> gesture, right here, Gates.)

the "hitchiker's guide.." should be made an official religion.  after
all it has the answer of the ultimate question.  among its lines we
read (what inspired my original gesture post, s/radios/computer/):

	The machine was rather difficult to operate.  For years radios
	had been operated by means of pressing buttons and turning
	dials; then as the technology became more sophisticated the
	controls were made touch-sensitive - you merely had to brush
	the panels with your fingers; now all you had to do was wave
	your hand in the general direction of the components and hope.
	It saved a lot of muscular expenditure of course, but meant
	that you had to sit infuriatingly still if you wanted to keep
	listening to the same programme.

andrey



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05  1:59             ` andrey mirtchovski
@ 2004-03-05  3:45               ` David Presotto
  2004-03-05 11:50                 ` 9nut
  2004-03-05 14:26                 ` Michael H. Collins
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: David Presotto @ 2004-03-05  3:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Gestures can work the other way too.

In an effort to save energy, our bathrooms at work now have motion sensors
operating the lights.  Something about me seems to not trigger the motion
sensors.  If I enter just as someone is leaving, everything is fine till
I sit down.  Then the lights go off and I have wave my hands and jump up
and down to get them to turn on the lights so that I can find the sink
and avoid sticking my hands in the urinals.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 20:21     ` splite
@ 2004-03-05  4:42       ` ron minnich
  2004-03-05  4:45         ` Bakul Shah
  2004-03-05 18:45         ` [9fans] borders rog
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: ron minnich @ 2004-03-05  4:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

on an unrelated note I noticed that you don't seem to be able to make a
rio with borderless windows (don't ask). I.e. I compiled a rio with the
various 'window edge' constants in defs.h set to 0, but there is a Border
defined in /sys/include/draw.h that is fixed at 4. So you kind of get 
borderless windows, but then as programs draw in them there is clearly 
still a border. 

Which led to some curiousity for me: any reason that there is a border in 
(I guess) libdraw?

ron



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05  4:42       ` ron minnich
@ 2004-03-05  4:45         ` Bakul Shah
  2004-03-05 18:45         ` [9fans] borders rog
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2004-03-05  4:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Which led to some curiousity for me: any reason that there is a border in 
> (I guess) libdraw?

Wrong gestures.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05  2:00             ` andrey mirtchovski
@ 2004-03-05  9:14               ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-03-05  9:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>> Gesture recognition may be a bad idea; if computers could recognise my
>> gestures, any Windows machines I use would be smoking heaps (I got yer
>> gesture, right here, Gates.)
> 
> the "hitchiker's guide.." should be made an official religion.  after

It is already here for some of us. I have an altar with "Don't Panic" in
golden letters at home :-).
						G.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05  0:33           ` Derek Fawcus
@ 2004-03-05 11:33             ` boyd, rounin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-03-05 11:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>    dah dit dah dit   dah dah dit dah ?

CQ



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05  1:16           ` Geoff Collyer
  2004-03-05  1:59             ` andrey mirtchovski
  2004-03-05  2:00             ` andrey mirtchovski
@ 2004-03-05 11:36             ` boyd, rounin
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-03-05 11:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Gesture recognition may be a bad idea; if computers could recognise my
> gestures, ....

oh, i think the 9x19mm 124 grain FMJ parabellum would get their attention ;)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05  3:45               ` David Presotto
@ 2004-03-05 11:50                 ` 9nut
  2004-03-05 14:31                   ` Michael H. Collins
  2004-03-05 14:26                 ` Michael H. Collins
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: 9nut @ 2004-03-05 11:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Gestures can work the other way too.

I believe Italians have the best gestures in the world.  Perhaps we
should tap into that.

There are at least three (Italian) hand gestures that I use
on Windows regularly.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05  3:45               ` David Presotto
  2004-03-05 11:50                 ` 9nut
@ 2004-03-05 14:26                 ` Michael H. Collins
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Michael H. Collins @ 2004-03-05 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans



David Presotto wrote:
> Gestures can work the other way too.
> 
> In an effort to save energy, our bathrooms at work now have motion sensors
> operating the lights.  Something about me seems to not trigger the motion
> sensors.  If I enter just as someone is leaving, everything is fine till
> I sit down.  Then the lights go off and I have wave my hands and jump up
> and down to get them to turn on the lights so that I can find the sink
> and avoid sticking my hands in the urinals.
> 
> 
Now that is some funny sheite....

I have the same affliction.  suX0rs.

But when i walk by a street light it cuts off.

-- 
Michael H. Collins  Admiral, Penguinista Navy	
http://linuxlink.com

http://www.gracklenews.com/




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05 11:50                 ` 9nut
@ 2004-03-05 14:31                   ` Michael H. Collins
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Michael H. Collins @ 2004-03-05 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

having lived in Italy for some years I agree and i use them on winboxen 
too.

Forza Napoli

and bah fonguilo Bill.

9nut@9netics.com wrote:
>>Gestures can work the other way too.
> 
> 
> I believe Italians have the best gestures in the world.  Perhaps we
> should tap into that.
> 
> There are at least three (Italian) hand gestures that I use
> on Windows regularly.
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Michael H. Collins  Admiral, Penguinista Navy	
http://linuxlink.com

http://www.gracklenews.com/




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] borders
  2004-03-05 18:45         ` [9fans] borders rog
@ 2004-03-05 18:40           ` Charles Forsyth
  2004-03-05 18:49             ` rog
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: Charles Forsyth @ 2004-03-05 18:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>>it's quite easy to crash acme this way, for example).

it's quite easy for rog to crash acme that way, for example ...



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] borders
  2004-03-05 18:49             ` rog
@ 2004-03-05 18:44               ` Charles Forsyth
  2004-03-05 19:08                 ` rog
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: Charles Forsyth @ 2004-03-05 18:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 102 bytes --]

no, it's just that i'd not seen it before you demonstrated it,
but you could crash it quite easily.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1711 bytes --]

From: rog@vitanuova.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] borders
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:49:39 0000
Message-ID: <d2df8098cdb3d4fa37baf910859c5dfb@vitanuova.com>

> it's quite easy for rog to crash acme that way, for example ...

yup, cack handed with the mouse, that's me.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* [9fans] borders
  2004-03-05  4:42       ` ron minnich
  2004-03-05  4:45         ` Bakul Shah
@ 2004-03-05 18:45         ` rog
  2004-03-05 18:40           ` Charles Forsyth
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: rog @ 2004-03-05 18:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Which led to some curiousity for me: any reason that there is a border in 
> (I guess) libdraw?

getwindow() knows about rio borders (it gets the named image which is
the rio window, then creates the application's window inside a screen
inside that).

this area is a little fragile (there's a race which means that
getwindow() can return nil even though there is a window to be got;
it's quite easy to crash acme this way, for example).



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] borders
  2004-03-05 18:40           ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2004-03-05 18:49             ` rog
  2004-03-05 18:44               ` Charles Forsyth
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: rog @ 2004-03-05 18:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> it's quite easy for rog to crash acme that way, for example ...

yup, cack handed with the mouse, that's me.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] borders
  2004-03-05 18:44               ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2004-03-05 19:08                 ` rog
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: rog @ 2004-03-05 19:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> no, it's just that i'd not seen it before you demonstrated it,
> but you could crash it quite easily.

actually i haven't done it for ages.

it happens when i'm trying to click on a scrollbar in the left hand
column, and miss and click on the window border instead, resizing the
window; repeat a few times (almost subconscious mouse repetition), and
acme crashes because it's trying to get a named image but rio has
already discarded that named image in favour of the next one...

i guess it happens with acme 'cos i usually have an acme window that
covers most of the screen, so it takes a while to resize/move.

it's an interesting illustration of the kind of problem that can occur
when using out-of-band data transfer.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-05 14:58 David Presotto
@ 2004-03-05 16:33 ` Michael H. Collins
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Michael H. Collins @ 2004-03-05 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

hey it is a Texan accent.  lol



David Presotto wrote:
>>and bah fonguilo Bill.
> 
> 
> You need to work on your accent.
> 
> 

-- 
Michael H. Collins  Admiral, Penguinista Navy	
http://linuxlink.com

http://www.gracklenews.com/




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] scrollbar
@ 2004-03-05 14:58 David Presotto
  2004-03-05 16:33 ` Michael H. Collins
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread
From: David Presotto @ 2004-03-05 14:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> and bah fonguilo Bill.

You need to work on your accent.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* RE: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 10:57 Tiit Lankots
  2004-03-04 11:05 ` matt
@ 2004-03-04 11:17 ` plan9
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: plan9 @ 2004-03-04 11:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

When writing text in left-to-right languages like english, you are
more likely to be focussing your attention on the left side of your
window.  Cursor positioning is therefore also more likely to be
nearer to the left edge of the window.  So, your mouse pointer is more
likely to be closer to the left edge of your window.

Robby



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* RE: [9fans] scrollbar
@ 2004-03-04 11:15 Tiit Lankots
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Tiit Lankots @ 2004-03-04 11:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> for left-right text, scroll bars on the right are generally 
> furthest away from the mouse pointer

I've noticed that I tend to move the mouse pointer to far 
right as I read/write something. Maybe so that it doesn't
obscure the text. Maybe it's just a habit formed by the
environment.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* RE: [9fans] scrollbar
  2004-03-04 10:57 Tiit Lankots
@ 2004-03-04 11:05 ` matt
  2004-03-04 11:17 ` plan9
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: matt @ 2004-03-04 11:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> yeah, Windows/Mac is shite
err, except religious arguments 

for left-right text, scroll bars on the right are generally furthest away from the mouse pointer

click file .. click a recent file ... move mouse pointer 1000 pixels to the scroll bar ... scroll



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

* RE: [9fans] scrollbar
@ 2004-03-04 10:57 Tiit Lankots
  2004-03-04 11:05 ` matt
  2004-03-04 11:17 ` plan9
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread
From: Tiit Lankots @ 2004-03-04 10:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> yeah, Windows/Mac is shite

err, except religious arguments 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2004-03-05 19:08 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 42+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2004-03-04 10:48 [9fans] scrollbar Tiit Lankots
2004-03-04 10:54 ` matt
2004-03-04 13:38 ` boyd, rounin
2004-03-04 17:15 ` Rob Pike
2004-03-04 17:22   ` Rob Pike
2004-03-04 17:43   ` rog
2004-03-04 20:21     ` splite
2004-03-05  4:42       ` ron minnich
2004-03-05  4:45         ` Bakul Shah
2004-03-05 18:45         ` [9fans] borders rog
2004-03-05 18:40           ` Charles Forsyth
2004-03-05 18:49             ` rog
2004-03-05 18:44               ` Charles Forsyth
2004-03-05 19:08                 ` rog
2004-03-04 19:04   ` [9fans] scrollbar splite
2004-03-04 19:07     ` Charles Forsyth
2004-03-04 19:17       ` rog
2004-03-04 21:10         ` Charles Forsyth
2004-03-04 22:28           ` boyd, rounin
2004-03-04 19:15     ` rog
2004-03-04 20:56       ` splite
2004-03-04 21:39     ` Bakul Shah
2004-03-04 21:51       ` andrey mirtchovski
2004-03-04 22:10         ` splite
2004-03-04 22:40         ` boyd, rounin
2004-03-05  0:33           ` Derek Fawcus
2004-03-05 11:33             ` boyd, rounin
2004-03-05  1:16           ` Geoff Collyer
2004-03-05  1:59             ` andrey mirtchovski
2004-03-05  3:45               ` David Presotto
2004-03-05 11:50                 ` 9nut
2004-03-05 14:31                   ` Michael H. Collins
2004-03-05 14:26                 ` Michael H. Collins
2004-03-05  2:00             ` andrey mirtchovski
2004-03-05  9:14               ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz
2004-03-05 11:36             ` boyd, rounin
2004-03-04 10:57 Tiit Lankots
2004-03-04 11:05 ` matt
2004-03-04 11:17 ` plan9
2004-03-04 11:15 Tiit Lankots
2004-03-05 14:58 David Presotto
2004-03-05 16:33 ` Michael H. Collins

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