[9fans] scrollbar

[9fans] scrollbar

[Tiit Lankots]

Windows/MacOS constantly place the scrollbar on right.
X/Plan9 constantly place it on left.

Is there some reasoning behind this logic?

Tiit@curious

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[matt]

yeah, Windows/Mac is shite

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[boyd, rounin]

> Windows/MacOS constantly place the scrollbar on right.

they got it wrong.

> Is there some reasoning behind this logic?

my logic is that if you write left to right the scroll bar should be on the
left.

and vice versa.

it minimises mouse movement.

i don't know why X or plan 9 or 8th ed chose this.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Rob Pike]

> Windows/MacOS constantly place the scrollbar on right.
> X/Plan9 constantly place it on left.
>
> Is there some reasoning behind this logic?

when i wrote my first scroll bar, back around 1980, i'd only seen
them on the left because that's where xerox put them.  later, when
they started appearing on the right, i wondered why, since it was
obvious that with a left-to-right language the odds are the mouse
is closer to the left edge than the right.  (as i type this, the entire
left half of my window is blank.)  so you'll have to ask the windows
and apple guys why they reversed the smalltalk decision.

-rob

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Rob Pike]

> (as i type this, the entire
> left half of my window is blank.)


as i typed that, i was very sleepy.  i meant to say that the
right side was blank, as it is again in this window.

yawn....

-rob

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[rog]

the only plausible reason i can come up with is that if you're drawing
the scrollbar only when you need to and you add the scrollbar on the
left, then all the text will jump rightwards.

it's interesting (ok, ok, it's deadly dull, but i'll continue anyway)
that when steve jobs did nextstep (post leaving apple) he put the
scrollbars on the left; when nextstep became macos X, the scrollbars
were moved to the right.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[splite]

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 05:43:54PM +0000, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> the only plausible reason i can come up with is that if you're drawing
> the scrollbar only when you need to and you add the scrollbar on the
> left, then all the text will jump rightwards.

Not an issue for Apple; Mac OS scrollbars were always drawn in the active
window, even if all the content was visible.  Inactive windows still had
the scrollbar space allocated, but the controls weren't drawn in.

http://toastytech.com/guis/moremacwrd1desk.gif

> it's interesting (ok, ok, it's deadly dull, but i'll continue anyway)
> that when steve jobs did nextstep (post leaving apple) he put the
> scrollbars on the left; when nextstep became macos X, the scrollbars
> were moved to the right.

The Dock was enough to confuse Mac OS users without moving the scrollbars
too.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[ron minnich]

on an unrelated note I noticed that you don't seem to be able to make a
rio with borderless windows (don't ask). I.e. I compiled a rio with the
various 'window edge' constants in defs.h set to 0, but there is a Border
defined in /sys/include/draw.h that is fixed at 4. So you kind of get 
borderless windows, but then as programs draw in them there is clearly 
still a border. 

Which led to some curiousity for me: any reason that there is a border in 
(I guess) libdraw?

ron

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Bakul Shah]

> Which led to some curiousity for me: any reason that there is a border in 
> (I guess) libdraw?

Wrong gestures.

[9fans] borders

[rog]

> Which led to some curiousity for me: any reason that there is a border in 
> (I guess) libdraw?

getwindow() knows about rio borders (it gets the named image which is
the rio window, then creates the application's window inside a screen
inside that).

this area is a little fragile (there's a race which means that
getwindow() can return nil even though there is a window to be got;
it's quite easy to crash acme this way, for example).

Re: [9fans] borders

[Charles Forsyth]

>>it's quite easy to crash acme this way, for example).

it's quite easy for rog to crash acme that way, for example ...

Re: [9fans] borders

[rog]

> it's quite easy for rog to crash acme that way, for example ...

yup, cack handed with the mouse, that's me.

Re: [9fans] borders

[Charles Forsyth]

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no, it's just that i'd not seen it before you demonstrated it,
but you could crash it quite easily.

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From: rog@vitanuova.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] borders
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:49:39 0000
Message-ID: <d2df8098cdb3d4fa37baf910859c5dfb@vitanuova.com>

> it's quite easy for rog to crash acme that way, for example ...

yup, cack handed with the mouse, that's me.

Re: [9fans] borders

[rog]

> no, it's just that i'd not seen it before you demonstrated it,
> but you could crash it quite easily.

actually i haven't done it for ages.

it happens when i'm trying to click on a scrollbar in the left hand
column, and miss and click on the window border instead, resizing the
window; repeat a few times (almost subconscious mouse repetition), and
acme crashes because it's trying to get a named image but rio has
already discarded that named image in favour of the next one...

i guess it happens with acme 'cos i usually have an acme window that
covers most of the screen, so it takes a while to resize/move.

it's an interesting illustration of the kind of problem that can occur
when using out-of-band data transfer.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[splite]

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 09:15:07AM -0800, Rob Pike wrote:
> >Windows/MacOS constantly place the scrollbar on right.
> >X/Plan9 constantly place it on left.
> >
> >Is there some reasoning behind this logic?
> 
> when i wrote my first scroll bar, back around 1980, i'd only seen
> them on the left because that's where xerox put them.  later, when
> they started appearing on the right, i wondered why, since it was
> obvious that with a left-to-right language the odds are the mouse
> is closer to the left edge than the right.  (as i type this, the entire
> left half of my window is blank.)  so you'll have to ask the windows
> and apple guys why they reversed the smalltalk decision.

Why ask the Windows guys?  They likely just copied the Apple guys.

My guess would be rightie aesthetics.

As someone mentioned, having the cursor hotspot on the left edge means that
the cursor will usually obstruct some text with a left-side scrollbar.
They could have used a right-pointing cursor instead, but that looks
and feels odd to a right-handed mouse user.  There's also the feeling
(at least for righties) that you're "reaching over" the window contents
to get to the scrollbar.

Further, precisely because most (Western) text is left-justified, the mostly
empty right side of the window helps the scrollbar stand out as a distinct
target, rather than being subsumed in the left-side clutter.  If the mouse
is already in the window, it's also easier for righties to hit a right-side
scrollbar as the hand can position the mouse more precisely when the fingers
and thumb are curling in toward the palm.

Personally, I find it less distracting when reading text to have the
scrollbar out of the way on the right.  My eyes seldom have to traverse
the window all the way to the right edge, but they're constantly refocusing
on the left edge, which is easier when it's uniform.

(Sorry to go all Tognazzini on y'all.)

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Charles Forsyth]

>>Personally, I find it less distracting when reading text to have the
>>scrollbar out of the way on the right.  My eyes seldom have to traverse

i find it less distracting to have a less distracting scrollbar,
without all the distracting bits and bobs,
and then it can stay on the left!  i hardly notice it under plan 9
until i need it.

it also seems to make more sense, or perhaps
look better, i'd say, in acme for the scrollbar
to sit on the right, since it can also marks the frame edge.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[rog]

> it also seems to make more sense, or perhaps
> look better, i'd say, in acme for the scrollbar
> to sit on the right, since it can also marks the frame edge.

you mean the left, i presume?

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Charles Forsyth]

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yes

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From: rog@vitanuova.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] scrollbar
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:17:05 0000
Message-ID: <9e7e4c9c83f013f1c8475682eda42b0b@vitanuova.com>

> it also seems to make more sense, or perhaps
> look better, i'd say, in acme for the scrollbar
> to sit on the right, since it can also marks the frame edge.

you mean the left, i presume?

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[boyd, rounin]

_fumbling the future_ tells some.

working/meeting with the guys who did it tells more.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[rog]

sorry, this is veering sharply off-topic, but i have
to say the thing that annoys me most about scrollbars
on the right is that it forces me to have the entire
window on screen - i can't read the text if the left hand
side is off screen, and i can't scroll it if the right hand side is
(and often if you resize it smaller, a horizontal scrollbar,
that bane of humanity, appears to make things even worse)

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[splite]

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 07:15:18PM +0000, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> sorry, this is veering sharply off-topic, but i have

Oh, I dunno.  I think Comparative GUIology is relevant, especially where
Plan 9 diverges from every "major" platform.

> to say the thing that annoys me most about scrollbars
> on the right is that it forces me to have the entire
> window on screen - i can't read the text if the left hand
> side is off screen, and i can't scroll it if the right hand side is
> (and often if you resize it smaller, a horizontal scrollbar,
> that bane of humanity, appears to make things even worse)

I considered that before but decided the argument was bogus.  If you have
unused window area on the right, make the window narrower.  If not, why
cover up the right side of the window?  If you truly don't care about the
right-side content, then what do you lose by making the window narrower?
You won't have need to scroll horizontally anyway.

I realize that some might move windows partially off the right side of the
screen as a space-saving measure, but that seems more like an argument for
better window management than against right-side scrollbars.

I'm really not advocating for right-side scrollbars; I was just guessing
as to why Apple might have put them there.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Bakul Shah]

> Personally, I find it less distracting when reading text to have the
> scrollbar out of the way on the right.  My eyes seldom have to traverse
> the window all the way to the right edge, but they're constantly refocusing
> on the left edge, which is easier when it's uniform.

But why use a scrollbar?  Why move the mouse to
any edge if all you want to do is to show a
different part through a window?  Panning would be
so much easier (especially if combined with
increasing scroll/pan speed proportional to the
distance travelled by the mouse).

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[andrey mirtchovski]

> But why use a scrollbar?  Why move the mouse to
> any edge if all you want to do is to show a
> different part through a window?  Panning would be
> so much easier (especially if combined with
> increasing scroll/pan speed proportional to the
> distance travelled by the mouse).

i've run out of mouse buttons for panning in acme...  unless we do it
with alt+button :)

we could go with gestures too -- a clockwise circle with the mouse
scrolls up, counterclockwise scrolls down; the larger the circle the
more you scroll (or the faster you rotate the mouse :).

this will help touch-screen users since they won't have to hold up to
15 buttons at once while hitting the screen with the little pointy
pen.

andrey

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[splite]

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 02:51:07PM -0700, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> Bakul Shah <bakul@BitBlocks.com> wrote:
> > But why use a scrollbar?  Why move the mouse to

I don't, myself.  I turn 'em off on my terminal windows.

> > any edge if all you want to do is to show a
> > different part through a window?  Panning would be
> > so much easier (especially if combined with
> > increasing scroll/pan speed proportional to the
> > distance travelled by the mouse).

Panning is fine for small movements, but there's a tendency to overshoot
big movements because you can't see what's "coming up".  Perhaps if it
were combined with some sort of pop-up indicator of where you are in the
document.

The big problem is that panning doesn't allow for discontinuous movement.
Think of the difference between cassette tapes and compact discs when you
want to skip ahead two songs.

> i've run out of mouse buttons for panning in acme...  unless we do it
> with alt+button :)

Yep.  Meta key chords rule.

> we could go with gestures too -- a clockwise circle with the mouse
> scrolls up, counterclockwise scrolls down; the larger the circle the
> more you scroll (or the faster you rotate the mouse :).

Man, you think you have RSI trouble now...

> this will help touch-screen users since they won't have to hold up to
> 15 buttons at once while hitting the screen with the little pointy
> pen.

True, but they won't be able to see if they've scrolled far enough with
their hand in the way.  I think that's why jog dials were invented.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[boyd, rounin]

> i've run out of mouse buttons for panning in acme...  unless we do it
> with alt+button :)

i've always been wating for morse code ..

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Derek Fawcus]

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 11:40:27PM +0100, boyd, rounin wrote:
> 
> i've always been wating for morse code ..

So if the box seems to have hung,  one keys/clicks:

   dah dit dah dit   dah dah dit dah ?

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[boyd, rounin]

>    dah dit dah dit   dah dah dit dah ?

CQ

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Geoff Collyer]

If you long for morse code, try using a Mac with a one-button mouse:
click click-click click.

Gesture recognition may be a bad idea; if computers could recognise my
gestures, any Windows machines I use would be smoking heaps (I got yer
gesture, right here, Gates.)

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[andrey mirtchovski]

> Gesture recognition may be a bad idea; if computers could recognise my
> gestures, any Windows machines I use would be smoking heaps (I got yer
> gesture, right here, Gates.)

the "hitchiker's guide.." should be made an official religion.  after
all it has the answer of the ultimate question.  among its lines we
read (what inspired my original gesture post, s/radios/computer/):

	The machine was rather difficult to operate.  For years radios
	had been operated by means of pressing buttons and turning
	dials; then as the technology became more sophisticated the
	controls were made touch-sensitive - you merely had to brush
	the panels with your fingers; now all you had to do was wave
	your hand in the general direction of the components and hope.
	It saved a lot of muscular expenditure of course, but meant
	that you had to sit infuriatingly still if you wanted to keep
	listening to the same programme.

andrey

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[David Presotto]

Gestures can work the other way too.

In an effort to save energy, our bathrooms at work now have motion sensors
operating the lights.  Something about me seems to not trigger the motion
sensors.  If I enter just as someone is leaving, everything is fine till
I sit down.  Then the lights go off and I have wave my hands and jump up
and down to get them to turn on the lights so that I can find the sink
and avoid sticking my hands in the urinals.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[9nut]

> Gestures can work the other way too.

I believe Italians have the best gestures in the world.  Perhaps we
should tap into that.

There are at least three (Italian) hand gestures that I use
on Windows regularly.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Michael H. Collins]

having lived in Italy for some years I agree and i use them on winboxen 
too.

Forza Napoli

and bah fonguilo Bill.

9nut@9netics.com wrote:
>>Gestures can work the other way too.
> 
> 
> I believe Italians have the best gestures in the world.  Perhaps we
> should tap into that.
> 
> There are at least three (Italian) hand gestures that I use
> on Windows regularly.
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Michael H. Collins  Admiral, Penguinista Navy	
http://linuxlink.com

http://www.gracklenews.com/

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Michael H. Collins]

David Presotto wrote:
> Gestures can work the other way too.
> 
> In an effort to save energy, our bathrooms at work now have motion sensors
> operating the lights.  Something about me seems to not trigger the motion
> sensors.  If I enter just as someone is leaving, everything is fine till
> I sit down.  Then the lights go off and I have wave my hands and jump up
> and down to get them to turn on the lights so that I can find the sink
> and avoid sticking my hands in the urinals.
> 
> 
Now that is some funny sheite....

I have the same affliction.  suX0rs.

But when i walk by a street light it cuts off.

-- 
Michael H. Collins  Admiral, Penguinista Navy	
http://linuxlink.com

http://www.gracklenews.com/

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[andrey mirtchovski]

> Gesture recognition may be a bad idea; if computers could recognise my
> gestures, any Windows machines I use would be smoking heaps (I got yer
> gesture, right here, Gates.)

the "hitchiker's guide.." should be made an official religion.  after
all it has the answer of the ultimate question.  among its lines we
read (what inspired my original gesture post, s/radios/computer/):

	The machine was rather difficult to operate.  For years radios
	had been operated by means of pressing buttons and turning
	dials; then as the technology became more sophisticated the
	controls were made touch-sensitive - you merely had to brush
	the panels with your fingers; now all you had to do was wave
	your hand in the general direction of the components and hope.
	It saved a lot of muscular expenditure of course, but meant
	that you had to sit infuriatingly still if you wanted to keep
	listening to the same programme.

andrey

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz]

>> Gesture recognition may be a bad idea; if computers could recognise my
>> gestures, any Windows machines I use would be smoking heaps (I got yer
>> gesture, right here, Gates.)
> 
> the "hitchiker's guide.." should be made an official religion.  after

It is already here for some of us. I have an altar with "Don't Panic" in
golden letters at home :-).
						G.

Re: [9fans] scrollbar

[boyd, rounin]

> Gesture recognition may be a bad idea; if computers could recognise my
> gestures, ....

oh, i think the 9x19mm 124 grain FMJ parabellum would get their attention ;)

Re: [9fans] borders

[dmr]

A curiosum: I was looking at an Israeli web page, almost all
in Hebrew, with IE.  It contrives to make the scrollbar
appear (and work) on the left.

	Dennis

Re: [9fans] borders

[Joel Salomon]

dmr@plan9.bell-labs.com said:
> A curiosum: I was looking at an Israeli web page, almost all
> in Hebrew, with IE.  It contrives to make the scrollbar
> appear (and work) on the left.
>
> 	Dennis
>

I *am* curious - was this the browser's scroll bar that got moved by some
ms html extension or what? www.bezeq.co.il, for example, has some code to
give it a "cool" blue scrollbar, but on the right.

Pointer, please.

--Joel

Re: [9fans] borders

[dmr]

 > I *am* curious - was this the browser's scroll bar that got moved by some
 > ms html extension or what? www.bezeq.co.il, for example, has some code to
 > give it a "cool" blue scrollbar, but on the right.

The example is at
http://www.whatsup.org.il/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=10639

I didn't try to understand the source, but it uses both
Javascript and CSS.

(BTW, it's a public page where the topic was "otherunix" stuff
and thus is graphics-rich.)

	Dennis

RE: [9fans] borders

[Tiit Lankots]

>I didn't try to understand the source, but it uses both
>Javascript and CSS.

You can say "direction: rtl" in CSS. That's what makes IE play games
with its scrollbar.

Re: [9fans] borders

[Dave Cummings]

on the topic of scrollbars, i've been playing with a ss10 w/openwindows. 
under workspace properties: Scrollbar Placement: Left/Right