Re: [9fans] newbie question

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Riza Dindir]

But as far as I remember, it gave me an error
regarding the permissions or something like that.
But I am not sure... I will post the error messages,
or any other messages as soon as I can get them.

Russ Cox wrote:
> > riza: we still haven't seen any error messages. do
> > you mind sending
> > those to the list?

> specifically, what is the exact output that you get
> from running:

> ls /sys/lib
> ls /sys/lib/newuser
> /sys/lib/newuser

> russ




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Newbie Question

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

Hi,

I am hoping someone can help me with this.

I am trying as an experiment to set up a small plan9 cluster as a set of 
computers in a VMWare environment.

I am using the latest 9front distribution, and currently have two VMs 
booting plan9 with one network adapter each, on a private network (not 
connected to the internet or to the host computer), with no DHCP being 
provided by VMWare, and am attempting manual isolated configuration for now.


As far as I can tell, I was able to get an auth server running, booting 
off its own installation, with authentication enabled on its 
filesystem.  It comes up without the window system running (as a cpu 
server) and "keyfs" is among the processes which are listed when I run 
"ps"; I was able to use auth/changeuser to create user accounts for the 
hostowner users "glenda" (for my file server) and another account for my 
auth server, and was able to arrange for secstored to start with the 
system (from cpurc) and that seems to be working - I also created 
accounts in there to match the two I created with auth/changeuser, and 
both accounts are defined on the filesystem. If I do "ps | grep listen" 
I see five processes running: two owned by the host owner and three by 
"none".

I have a second system set up which I intend to be the file server (more 
storage space) and I can successfully use "rcpu" to access the auth 
server from that one.  The file server is still booting as a terminal 
rather than a cpu server, and I created matching user accounts (newuser) 
on the filesystem on the file server.


The last part of the /lib/ndb/local file on the file server looks like this:


auth=fingers authdom=9cluster


ipnet=9cluster ip=192.168.81.0 ipmask=255.255.255.0

     fs=cabinet

     tftpd=cabinet

     auth=fingers

     authdom=9cluster

     dnsdomain=9cluster


# file server

sys=cabinet ether=005056301268 ip=192.168.81.10

     dom=cabinet.9cluster


# auth server

sys=fingers ether=00505635c452 ip=192.168.81.12

     dom=fingers.9cluster



As I understand it, the next step would be to enable authentication on 
the file server.  I do this by rebooting, adding -c to the bootargs and 
at the "config:" prompt entering "noauth" twice, then "end".


When I try to do this, I am getting this set of messages:


mount: auth_proxy: auth_proxy read fd: authread: auth protocol not finished

mount: mount /root: authread: auth protocol not finished


followed by a list of partitions then a new prompt for bootargs


I am interpreting this to mean that I missed something in my 
authentication configuration, but after trying several things, I am a 
bit lost on how to proceed with this.


Can someone point me in the direction of what I might be missing?


Thank you!

Re: [9fans] Newbie Question

[cinap_lenrek]

i believe that this is due to running a with service=terminal.
this causes factotum to be started as a client with no keys in it.

the p9any auth protocol starts by the server presenting a set of
keys, auth domains and protocols, which you wont have in this
case (no keys there). which is most likely the reason the whole
thing fails.

if you boot your fileserver with service=cpu, then when factotum starts
it will prompt you for authid and password which will be the credentials
of the hostowner (of the fileserver) which should have to match what you
have on the authentication server. this information can be stored in
nvram to avoid the prompt on boot.

even if it doesnt match the auth key for (that user) on the authserver,
the fileserver should be able to boot and mount its root filesystem
as factotum talks to itself in this scenario and having the same keys
on both sides.

its just about to fail when there are no keys at all.

i hope this makes sense.

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] Newbie Question

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

Thank you!


When I tried bringing it up as a cpu server with auth enabled it did 
indeed make it past the errors.

I'll see if I can work things out from there.


On 12/16/19 2:27 PM, cinap_lenrek@felloff.net wrote:
> i believe that this is due to running a with service=terminal.
> this causes factotum to be started as a client with no keys in it.
>
> the p9any auth protocol starts by the server presenting a set of
> keys, auth domains and protocols, which you wont have in this
> case (no keys there). which is most likely the reason the whole
> thing fails.
>
> if you boot your fileserver with service=cpu, then when factotum starts
> it will prompt you for authid and password which will be the credentials
> of the hostowner (of the fileserver) which should have to match what you
> have on the authentication server. this information can be stored in
> nvram to avoid the prompt on boot.
>
> even if it doesnt match the auth key for (that user) on the authserver,
> the fileserver should be able to boot and mount its root filesystem
> as factotum talks to itself in this scenario and having the same keys
> on both sides.
>
> its just about to fail when there are no keys at all.
>
> i hope this makes sense.
>
> --
> cinap
>
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>

Re: [9fans] Newbie Question

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

ok, I seem to have run into another one.

I now have the file server booting as a cpu server with authentication 
enabled, and am trying to net boot another host from there.

I have dhcpd and tftpd running on the file server; my /cfg/pxe/default 
looks like this:


bootfile=/386/9pc

bootargs=tls

auth=192.168.81.12

fs=192.168.81.10

mouseport=ps2intellimouse

monitor=vesa

vgasize=1440x900x32

*acpi=1


The entry in /lib/ndb/local is (with "..." being the actual MAC address):


sys=thinker ether=... ip=192.168.81.20

     dom=thinker.9cluster

     bootf=/386/9bootpxe



The "thinker" system is starting the plan9 kernel over the network (it 
has no local disk); I get prompted for a user account and for now am 
just using "glenda".  I enter the password I set for the auth server, 
for secstore, and for the filesystem on the file server (I used the same 
for each), and I am getting this on "thinker":


mount: mount /root: tls error

mount -c #s/boot /root: mount 145: mount


bootargs is (tcp, tls, il, local!device)[tls]


When this happens the file server console shows this:


/bin/aux/trampoline: dial net!$fs!9fs: connection rejected


I'm not sure if this means that the file server is rejecting the 
connection from the (currently) terminal, or what might be going on...  
the "$fs" showing up on the file server console seems curious to me as I 
would have thought if that were coming from the terminal the "$fs" would 
have been translated from there?  Again not sure where to go from here...


I was originally having a problem with secstored not having a "factotum" 
file for the terminal to retrieve, but after having worked that one out 
it now stored a key in it (and is no longer asking me to set one) for my 
"dom=9cluster", so I did manage to get past that one.


I also noticed that if I retry from the bootargs prompt I get the 
additional message "ipconfig: dialicmp6: address in use", but I am 
guessing that is simply a leftover from the earlier attempt, and 
assuming I can safely ignore that...




On 12/16/19 4:40 PM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
> Thank you!
>
>
> When I tried bringing it up as a cpu server with auth enabled it did 
> indeed make it past the errors.
>
> I'll see if I can work things out from there.
>
>
> On 12/16/19 2:27 PM, cinap_lenrek@felloff.net wrote:
>> i believe that this is due to running a with service=terminal.
>> this causes factotum to be started as a client with no keys in it.
>>
>> the p9any auth protocol starts by the server presenting a set of
>> keys, auth domains and protocols, which you wont have in this
>> case (no keys there). which is most likely the reason the whole
>> thing fails.
>>
>> if you boot your fileserver with service=cpu, then when factotum starts
>> it will prompt you for authid and password which will be the credentials
>> of the hostowner (of the fileserver) which should have to match what you
>> have on the authentication server. this information can be stored in
>> nvram to avoid the prompt on boot.
>>
>> even if it doesnt match the auth key for (that user) on the authserver,
>> the fileserver should be able to boot and mount its root filesystem
>> as factotum talks to itself in this scenario and having the same keys
>> on both sides.
>>
>> its just about to fail when there are no keys at all.
>>
>> i hope this makes sense.
>>
>> -- 
>> cinap
>>
>
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Re: [9fans] Newbie Question

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

I figured this one out...  I had missed adding the "-a tcp!*!564" option 
on the file server bootargs.

Now it is working!


On 12/18/19 6:57 PM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
> ok, I seem to have run into another one.
>
> I now have the file server booting as a cpu server with authentication 
> enabled, and am trying to net boot another host from there.
>
> I have dhcpd and tftpd running on the file server; my /cfg/pxe/default 
> looks like this:
>
>
> bootfile=/386/9pc
>
> bootargs=tls
>
> auth=192.168.81.12
>
> fs=192.168.81.10
>
> mouseport=ps2intellimouse
>
> monitor=vesa
>
> vgasize=1440x900x32
>
> *acpi=1
>
>
> The entry in /lib/ndb/local is (with "..." being the actual MAC address):
>
>
> sys=thinker ether=... ip=192.168.81.20
>
>     dom=thinker.9cluster
>
>     bootf=/386/9bootpxe
>
>
>
> The "thinker" system is starting the plan9 kernel over the network (it 
> has no local disk); I get prompted for a user account and for now am 
> just using "glenda".  I enter the password I set for the auth server, 
> for secstore, and for the filesystem on the file server (I used the 
> same for each), and I am getting this on "thinker":
>
>
> mount: mount /root: tls error
>
> mount -c #s/boot /root: mount 145: mount
>
>
> bootargs is (tcp, tls, il, local!device)[tls]
>
>
> When this happens the file server console shows this:
>
>
> /bin/aux/trampoline: dial net!$fs!9fs: connection rejected
>
>
> I'm not sure if this means that the file server is rejecting the 
> connection from the (currently) terminal, or what might be going 
> on...  the "$fs" showing up on the file server console seems curious 
> to me as I would have thought if that were coming from the terminal 
> the "$fs" would have been translated from there?  Again not sure where 
> to go from here...
>
>
> I was originally having a problem with secstored not having a 
> "factotum" file for the terminal to retrieve, but after having worked 
> that one out it now stored a key in it (and is no longer asking me to 
> set one) for my "dom=9cluster", so I did manage to get past that one.
>
>
> I also noticed that if I retry from the bootargs prompt I get the 
> additional message "ipconfig: dialicmp6: address in use", but I am 
> guessing that is simply a leftover from the earlier attempt, and 
> assuming I can safely ignore that...
>
>
>
>
> On 12/16/19 4:40 PM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
>> Thank you!
>>
>>
>> When I tried bringing it up as a cpu server with auth enabled it did 
>> indeed make it past the errors.
>>
>> I'll see if I can work things out from there.
>>
>>
>> On 12/16/19 2:27 PM, cinap_lenrek@felloff.net wrote:
>>> i believe that this is due to running a with service=terminal.
>>> this causes factotum to be started as a client with no keys in it.
>>>
>>> the p9any auth protocol starts by the server presenting a set of
>>> keys, auth domains and protocols, which you wont have in this
>>> case (no keys there). which is most likely the reason the whole
>>> thing fails.
>>>
>>> if you boot your fileserver with service=cpu, then when factotum starts
>>> it will prompt you for authid and password which will be the 
>>> credentials
>>> of the hostowner (of the fileserver) which should have to match what 
>>> you
>>> have on the authentication server. this information can be stored in
>>> nvram to avoid the prompt on boot.
>>>
>>> even if it doesnt match the auth key for (that user) on the authserver,
>>> the fileserver should be able to boot and mount its root filesystem
>>> as factotum talks to itself in this scenario and having the same keys
>>> on both sides.
>>>
>>> its just about to fail when there are no keys at all.
>>>
>>> i hope this makes sense.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> cinap
>>>
>>
>
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>

Re: [9fans] Newbie Question

[cinap_lenrek]

ok, never mind.

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] Newbie Question

[cinap_lenrek]

makes sense.

you need to configure the fileserver to listen on the network by
specifying bootargs on the fs like: local!/dev/sdXX/fscache -a tcp!*!564

you can verify this with the netstat command on the fs console looking
for 9fs service in Listen state.

or use "tcp" instead of "tls" on the netbooting client's bootargs.

tls is handled by a helper service that terminates the tls connection
and relays the paintext to its fileserver. if that fileserver is not
listening for network connections that it will fail like this.

it is probably a good idea to put fs= and auth= attributes in your ndb
ipnet entry, so you do not need to specify this information in plan9.ini
and dhcpd will supply this information to the client.

--
cinap

[9fans] Newbie question

[philo565]

Although I did use Plan 9 about a year ago I never got around to learning much about it...

so finally re-installed it a few days ago...
and now see that I've forgotten quite a bit of the little I knew.

Upon trying to run abaco I get an error message that 

lib/font/bit/lucidasans/passwd.6.font  is missing


I do recall that I ran into that same situation
a year ago ...and I do recall solving the problem...
but I can't recall the solution

When I try to copy the needed font to the
lucidasans folder I simply get an access denied message

Could someone be kind enough to remind me how I gain access
to protected folders such as /lib and /bin


Thank you


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Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Eoghan Sherry]

2009/4/21 philo565@juno.com <philo565@juno.com>:
> Could someone be kind enough to remind me how I gain access
> to protected folders such as /lib and /bin

You want to add yourself to the group sys on the file server (fossil).
The wiki explains how with links to relevant man pages:
http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Adding_a_new_user

eoghan

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

> 	mount -c /srv/x mountpoint
> of
> 	bind -c dir mountpoint
> says that this is the file system in which new files should be created.
> Needless to say, you can only do one -c mount or bind per mountpoint.

A mountpoint can surely accept multiple binds/mounts with "-c", can't it?
-- 

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[erik quanstrom]

from mount(1):
> A mountpoint can surely accept multiple binds/mounts with "-c", can't it?

         -c        This can be used in addition to any of the above
                    to permit creation in a union directory.  When a
                    new file is created in a union directory, it is
                    placed in the first element of the union that has
                    been bound or mounted with the -c flag.  If that
                    directory does not have write permission, the cre-
                    ate fails.

you can do it, but it doesn't make any sense.  only the last element
added will be placed first in the union and thus writable at the root.

- erik

[9fans] Newbie question

[Fabrizio Colalucci]

Hi all,
       I'm a newbie in Plan 9.
My problem is that I need to copy some files to the root ("/")
directory, but when I try that, the system returns:

cp can't create /<filename>:
'/<filename>' mounted directory forbids creation

I know (or better, I think) it's a permission problem,
so how can I do to write in that directory?

Thanks to everybody in advance.

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Sape Mullender]

>        I'm a newbie in Plan 9.
> My problem is that I need to copy some files to the root ("/")
> directory, but when I try that, the system returns:
> 
> cp can't create /<filename>:
> '/<filename>' mounted directory forbids creation
> 
> I know (or better, I think) it's a permission problem,
> so how can I do to write in that directory?
> 
> Thanks to everybody in advance.

Plan 9 allows mounting multiple file systems at the same mount point,
one before or after the other.  If you have multiple file systems
mounted on, say, '/', then, when you create a file or directory
in '/', something has to tell the system in which of the mounted file
systems this file should be created.  Hence the -c flag on mount and bind.
	mount -c /srv/x mountpoint
of
	bind -c dir mountpoint
says that this is the file system in which new files should be created.
Needless to say, you can only do one -c mount or bind per mountpoint.

I bet your root file system isn't mounted with the -c flag.

	Sape

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Sape Mullender]

>>        I'm a newbie in Plan 9.
>> My problem is that I need to copy some files to the root ("/")
>> directory, but when I try that, the system returns:
>> 
>> cp can't create /<filename>:
>> '/<filename>' mounted directory forbids creation
>> 
>> I know (or better, I think) it's a permission problem,
>> so how can I do to write in that directory?
>> 
>> Thanks to everybody in advance.
> 
> Plan 9 allows mounting multiple file systems at the same mount point,
> one before or after the other.  If you have multiple file systems
> mounted on, say, '/', then, when you create a file or directory
> in '/', something has to tell the system in which of the mounted file
> systems this file should be created.  Hence the -c flag on mount and bind.
> 	mount -c /srv/x mountpoint
> of
> 	bind -c dir mountpoint
> says that this is the file system in which new files should be created.
> Needless to say, you can only do one -c mount or bind per mountpoint.
> 
> I bet your root file system isn't mounted with the -c flag.
> 
> 	Sape

Following up on my own mail after a little discussion in the Unix room,
we asked
1. Why would you want to create a file in the root directory in the first place?
   it's probably not a good place.
2. The standard boot script mounts the root directory without -c.  You can, if
   you insist, remount the root file system.  But note point 1 above :-)


	Sape

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Paul Lalonde]

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Hash: SHA1


On May 23, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Sape Mullender wrote:
> 1. Why would you want to create a file in the root directory in the  
> first place?
>    it's probably not a good place.

I had occasion to do this recently while porting to a new  
architecture.  Infrequent, but confusing for the first 3 minutes.

Paul

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Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Fabrizio Colalucci]

2007/5/23, Sape Mullender <sape@plan9.bell-labs.com>:

>
> Following up on my own mail after a little discussion in the Unix room,
> we asked
> 1. Why would you want to create a file in the root directory in the first place?
>    it's probably not a good place.
>
>
>         Sape

I know it isn't a good place, but I have to install the Plan B OS:

http://plan9.escet.urjc.es/ls/planb.html

and so I need to unpack a tar ball with a set of files on top of a
Plan 9 installation.

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[andrey mirtchovski]

create it in /root rather than /. the 'ns' command will show you that
/root is mounted at / very early on.

On 5/23/07, Fabrizio Colalucci <fabrizio.colalucci@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>        I'm a newbie in Plan 9.
> My problem is that I need to copy some files to the root ("/")
> directory, but when I try that, the system returns:
>
> cp can't create /<filename>:
> '/<filename>' mounted directory forbids creation
>
> I know (or better, I think) it's a permission problem,
> so how can I do to write in that directory?
>
> Thanks to everybody in advance.
>

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[ron minnich]

On 5/23/07, Fabrizio Colalucci <fabrizio.colalucci@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>        I'm a newbie in Plan 9.
> My problem is that I need to copy some files to the root ("/")
> directory, but when I try that, the system returns:

we're all wondering why you need /

a bad idea in general

what is the reason?

thanks

ron

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Paul Lalonde]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

As I said - my first pass at power64 needed /power64.

But this should be infrequent.

Paul

On May 23, 2007, at 11:49 AM, ron minnich wrote:

> On 5/23/07, Fabrizio Colalucci <fabrizio.colalucci@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>        I'm a newbie in Plan 9.
>> My problem is that I need to copy some files to the root ("/")
>> directory, but when I try that, the system returns:
>
> we're all wondering why you need /
>
> a bad idea in general
>
> what is the reason?
>
> thanks
>
> ron

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Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[ron minnich]

On 5/23/07, Paul Lalonde <plalonde@telus.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> As I said - my first pass at power64 needed /power64.
>

I was wondering about fabrizio, not paul :-)

thanks

ron

[9fans] Newbie question

[Markus Sonderegger]

Hello!

I am a C programmer and I've been using UNIX-like operating systems for some 
time now, but I'd really like to get into Plan 9.

But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one.
Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work style.


Regards

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Lee Duhem]

yes, you can, if you want :-)
but Plan9's GUI is very nice.
try it first, and then decide

2006/12/5, Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at>:
>
> Hello!
>
> I am a C programmer and I've been using UNIX-like operating systems for some
> time now, but I'd really like to get into Plan 9.
>
> But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one.
> Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work style.
>
>
> Regards
>

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[erik quanstrom]

i don't think it's possible to work without rio,
as the console doesn't allow one to interrupt
a task.  so if you ever start something that
hangs up, you've got to reboot to get a prompt
back.

of course you could
a) modify the kernel to allow one to use DEL
at the console.
b) write something that suits your taste either
within rio or to replace it.

- erik

On Tue Dec  5 06:41:20 EST 2006, lee.duhem@gmail.com wrote:
> yes, you can, if you want :-)
> but Plan9's GUI is very nice.
> try it first, and then decide
> 
> 2006/12/5, Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at>:
> >
> > Hello!
> >
> > I am a C programmer and I've been using UNIX-like operating systems for some
> > time now, but I'd really like to get into Plan 9.
> >
> > But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one.
> > Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work style.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[John Stalker]

Yes.  It's certainly possible.  Try the gui, though.  It's much less
annoying than the typical gui.  It takes a bit of adjustment, but things
like sam and acme are very well thought out.  You can try the plan9ports
versions before you install.

> 
> Hello!
> 
> I am a C programmer and I've been using UNIX-like operating systems for some 
> time now, but I'd really like to get into Plan 9.
> 
> But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one
> .
> Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work
>  style.
> 
> 
> Regards
-- 
John Stalker
School of Mathematics
Trinity College Dublin
tel +353 1 896 1983
fax +353 1 896 2282

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Lucio De Re]

> But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one.
> Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work style.

Yes, but it's insufferable.  SAM and ACME are both works of art.  One
of them will eventually feel just perfect.  But you _do_ need a three
button mouse.

++L

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Gabriel Diaz]

Hello

you should take in account that plan9 is not unix, the papers are a
good read to know the reasons behind the plan9 way.

gabi


On 12/5/06, Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> I am a C programmer and I've been using UNIX-like operating systems for some
> time now, but I'd really like to get into Plan 9.
>
> But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one.
> Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work style.
>
>
> Regards
>

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Markus Sonderegger]

Hello!

Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.

What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.

Sorry for my english.

Regards

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Rodolfo Garcia]

Hi Markus,

I don't like the mouse too, but in Plan9 is different. You can use it to 
copy, paste, drag and drop, execute code, find, ... only in one click. 
Try it, I had the same problem and I "love" now my mouse (you need a 
three buttons mouse!).

Tips:

In a window:

button 1, drag: select.
button 1, drag, and button 2 (middle): cut
button 1, drag, and button 3: paste
button 1, drag, button 2, and button 3: copy :-)
...

You can select/paste where you want. You can use it to change and 
erroneous command and re-exec it.

In acme is more powerful yet!

Try it ;-)

Markus Sonderegger wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
> you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
> my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.
>
> What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
> of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.
>
> Sorry for my english.
>
> Regards
>
>   

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[John Floren]

On 12/6/06, Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at> wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
> you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
> my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.
>
> What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
> of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.
>
> Sorry for my english.
>
> Regards
>

Markus, I'm no fan of the mouse either, as other mailing list members
could tell you, but like Rodolfo, I find Plan 9's mouse use better
than that of any other OS I've used.

The system *is* pretty slick, and when I'm doing some stuff, I'm
really glad it's the way it is. Of course, I still want keyboard
shortcuts (so does everybody else, they just don't know it yet), but
as I said, it's pretty good the way it is.

Like I've said before, if only I had one of those chording keyboard
things from Xerox's Alto, I could rock with the mouse in one hand and
the other hand on the keyboard.

Looking forward to flames

John
-- 
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Georg Lehner]

Hello!

I don't like the mouse very much either.  I use it for placing windows
and have learned just the basics for working with rio windows and
acme until now.

with "vt" you can put a rio terminal into "vt100" mode, and "ape/psh"
gives you a Korn Shell, however without emacs and vi editing modes.

Maybe you can get these modes back into psh and feel at home then.


Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at> writes:

> Hello!
>
> Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
> you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
> my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.
>
> What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
> of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.
...

The kernel has a minimal console.  It lacks an interrupt key for job
control.  rio uses the Del key for job control.  I think it is better
to let a userspace application do job control, and not to code
functionality for an interrupt key into the kernel.

If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
functionality.


    Jorge-León

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[andrey mirtchovski]

> If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> functionality.

if you want an application to take the whole screen permanently you
can start that program instead of rio. you won't be able to "manage"
it at all and it'll always take the entire screen, but if you want a
bare console so much you can have it ;)

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[LiteStar numnums]

Someone could also port Ratpoison =)

On 12/7/06, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> > sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> > programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> > window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> > functionality.
>
> if you want an application to take the whole screen permanently you
> can start that program instead of rio. you won't be able to "manage"
> it at all and it'll always take the entire screen, but if you want a
> bare console so much you can have it ;)
>


-- 
If work and leisure are soon to be subordinated to this one utopian
principle -- absolute busyness -- then utopia and melancholy will come
to coincide: an age without conflict will dawn, perpetually busy --
and without consciousness.

 -- Günter Grass

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Charles Forsyth]

> > If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> > sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> > programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> > window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> > functionality.

surely it should emulate a 3270?

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Steve Simon]

> surely it should emulate a 3270?

I did rescue a real adm3a from a skip at colledge, one 
with a graphics board too. I left it at a friends
house whilst I was out of the country one summer and
he put a goldfish bowl in it.

Looked pretty snazzy.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Brantley Coile]

>> > If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
>> > sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
>> > programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
>> > window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
>> > functionality.
> 
> surely it should emulate a 3270?

Only if it could make that funny clicking noise when
you're not allowed to push the send key. :)

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[ron minnich]

On 12/8/06, Brantley Coile <brantley@coraid.com> wrote:
> >> > If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> >> > sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> >> > programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> >> > window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> >> > functionality.
> >
> > surely it should emulate a 3270?
>
> Only if it could make that funny clicking noise when
> you're not allowed to push the send key. :)

If you really just want terminals, just fire up Acme and run a win in
each Acme window. No mouse needed for the most part, and you could
probably add keyboard nav if you want. I use acme this way on console
all the time -- it's nice.

ron

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[sretzki]

> Hello!
> 
> I don't like the mouse very much either.  I use it for placing windows
> and have learned just the basics for working with rio windows and
> acme until now.
> 
> with "vt" you can put a rio terminal into "vt100" mode, and "ape/psh"
> gives you a Korn Shell, however without emacs and vi editing modes.
> 
> Maybe you can get these modes back into psh and feel at home then.
> 

Or you just learn the idea behind it all. This 'oh my gawd I must touch a mouse!?!?!?'-drama constantly occuring in the so-called unix-community is at least funny, but can quickly become annoying.

> 
> Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at> writes:
> 
>> Hello!
>>
>> Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
>> you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
>> my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.
>>
>> What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
>> of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.
> ...
> 
> The kernel has a minimal console.  It lacks an interrupt key for job
> control.  rio uses the Del key for job control.  I think it is better
> to let a userspace application do job control, and not to code
> functionality for an interrupt key into the kernel.
> 
> If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> functionality.
> 
> 
>     Jorge-León

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Markus Sonderegger]

On 10:17 Sat 09 Dec     , sretzki@gmx.de wrote:
> > Hello!
> > 
> > I don't like the mouse very much either.  I use it for placing windows
> > and have learned just the basics for working with rio windows and
> > acme until now.
> > 
> > with "vt" you can put a rio terminal into "vt100" mode, and "ape/psh"
> > gives you a Korn Shell, however without emacs and vi editing modes.
> > 
> > Maybe you can get these modes back into psh and feel at home then.
> > 
> 
> Or you just learn the idea behind it all. This 'oh my gawd I must touch a mouse!?!?!?'-drama constantly occuring in the so-called unix-community is at least funny, but can quickly become annoying.
>


I've uesd rio some days now and it's absolut the best gui out there. 
Well thouht out und straight forward.
For me it's no drame to touch the mouse. My question was if it's
possible to use plan9 without rio, like other unixes.



> > 
> > Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at> writes:
> > 
> >> Hello!
> >>
> >> Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
> >> you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
> >> my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.
> >>
> >> What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
> >> of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.
> > ...
> > 
> > The kernel has a minimal console.  It lacks an interrupt key for job
> > control.  rio uses the Del key for job control.  I think it is better
> > to let a userspace application do job control, and not to code
> > functionality for an interrupt key into the kernel.
> > 
> > If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> > sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> > programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> > window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> > functionality.
> > 
> > 
> >     Jorge-Le??n
> 

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Tim Wiess]

> My question was if it's possible to use plan9 without rio, like other
> unixes.

plan9 isn't unix.

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Gregory Pavelcak]

My $0.02.

When I began using Plan 9, rio, and acme, I forced myself to use it
because I had the sense that it was an elegant system and that, if I
ever came to understand it, especially per process namespaces, I could
do some really clever stuff.  In the early stages I would have said
that you use Plan 9 despite the user interface, not because of it.
Well, now I can't stand to use anything else.  I have a mac just for
the cases when I need a “full-featured” browser and drawterm to my
Plan 9 setup the rest of the time.

Perhaps giving it a few weeks is the way to go.

Greg

>> Hello!
>> 
>> I don't like the mouse very much either.  I use it for placing windows
>> and have learned just the basics for working with rio windows and
>> acme until now.
>> 
>> with "vt" you can put a rio terminal into "vt100" mode, and "ape/psh"
>> gives you a Korn Shell, however without emacs and vi editing modes.
>> 
>> Maybe you can get these modes back into psh and feel at home then.
>> 
> 
> Or you just learn the idea behind it all. This 'oh my gawd I must touch a mouse!?!?!?'-drama constantly occuring in the so-called unix-community is at least funny, but can quickly become annoying.

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Brantley Coile]

> My $0.02.

Great that the newbie that asked the original questin has now used
and seen the advantage of Rio and the plan 9 interface.

The comment about some so-called Unix community folks not wanting to
touch the mouse is certainly true, and I've been amazed at that.  To
show them that using the mouse is not anti-Unix, some history might be
in order.

Certainly the first use of the mouse on any system was Doug
Engelbart's use at SRI in 1970.  The mouse quickly scurried accross El
Camino Real to Xerox PARC and was used in the Alto in 1973.  The Unix
folks at Bell Labs got a mouse in 1982 with the development of the
Blit terminal developed by Rob Pike and Bart Locanthi.  That design
brought windows (or layers as they were called) and the mouse into a
Unix system cleanly.  The Blit turned into the DMD5620 and then the
630 and 730.  The Blit and its programs were key to the research that
led to plan 9's interfaces.  The gnot, a descendent of these
terminals, was designed in 1989 to run plan 9 on the desk.  It was the
original thin client.

The windowing systems at Bell Labs went from mpx to mux to 8½ to rio,
with several systems in between, all from the originators of Unix at
the place of origin of Unix.  So, it seems to me that Rio has a claim
to being a true Unix interface.  More so than xterm and vi.  I
sometimes like to use ed(1) for nostalgic reasons, but I get things
done faster in acme(1).  I don't think xterm and emacs are Unix at
all.

I never did understand why xterm clears the screen when I `q' out of
man.  Maybe so I can develop a photographic memory and remember what
was on the man page that I now have to type at the prompt.

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Rodolfo Garcia]

Ufff, is very very interesing. Thanks for the "mouse history"

slds.

Brantley Coile wrote:
>> My $0.02.
>>     
>
> Great that the newbie that asked the original questin has now used
> and seen the advantage of Rio and the plan 9 interface.
>
> The comment about some so-called Unix community folks not wanting to
> touch the mouse is certainly true, and I've been amazed at that.  To
> show them that using the mouse is not anti-Unix, some history might be
> in order.
>
> Certainly the first use of the mouse on any system was Doug
> Engelbart's use at SRI in 1970.  The mouse quickly scurried accross El
> Camino Real to Xerox PARC and was used in the Alto in 1973.  The Unix
> folks at Bell Labs got a mouse in 1982 with the development of the
> Blit terminal developed by Rob Pike and Bart Locanthi.  That design
> brought windows (or layers as they were called) and the mouse into a
> Unix system cleanly.  The Blit turned into the DMD5620 and then the
> 630 and 730.  The Blit and its programs were key to the research that
> led to plan 9's interfaces.  The gnot, a descendent of these
> terminals, was designed in 1989 to run plan 9 on the desk.  It was the
> original thin client.
>
> The windowing systems at Bell Labs went from mpx to mux to 8½ to rio,
> with several systems in between, all from the originators of Unix at
> the place of origin of Unix.  So, it seems to me that Rio has a claim
> to being a true Unix interface.  More so than xterm and vi.  I
> sometimes like to use ed(1) for nostalgic reasons, but I get things
> done faster in acme(1).  I don't think xterm and emacs are Unix at
> all.
>
> I never did understand why xterm clears the screen when I `q' out of
> man.  Maybe so I can develop a photographic memory and remember what
> was on the man page that I now have to type at the prompt.
>
>
>   

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Riza Dindir]

That is the problem. I can not run the
/sys/lib/newuser
script at the teminal prompt. Either I am not writing
the command correctly (this might be but I doubt it),
or it is because I do not have any permissins to get
to the directory /sys/lib and execute the newuser
script. Which is a bit strange. Because I can list the
contents (ls) of the /sys directory, but can not get
into the /sys/lib directory in order to see the
scripts...

Riza

--- Sascha Retzki <sretzki@gmx.de> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 05:07:43AM -0800, Riza
> Dindir wrote:
> > 
> > Nils O. Sel?sdal wrote:
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Why not ? (what happens when you try to run
> > > /sys/lib/newuser ?)
> > 
> > After I created the user with fossilcons I have
> > rebooted
> > the system (fshalt). After starting up the system
> to
> > log in as user1 it gave me these error messages...
> 
> ... because you did not yet execute
> /sys/lib/newuser. It is a script.
> Just execute it and reboot again.
> 
> > 
> > I have entered these things when login in:
> > 
> > root is from (tcp, il, local)
> [local!@d/sdC0/fossil]:
> > <ENTER>
> > user [none]: user1
> > 
> 
> You did everything right.
> 
> > The messages were:
> > 
> > dossrv: serving #s/dos
> > lib/profile: rc: .: can't open: '
> > bin/lib' file does not exist
> 
> That happens because you did not yet run the
> newuser-script which copies
> a "basic" profile-file (among others of course) to
> your homedir.
> 
> > It is a black terminal screen... I can list the
> > contents of my directory. It is empty. The working
> 
> Because you did not yet... ;)
> 
> > directory is /.../user1. When I try to list the
> > contents of /sys I can see the directories under
> it.
> > But can not list the contents of /sys/lib or any
> other
> > directory in that...
> > 
> 
> That is good/ok/like it should be. Just execute...
> 
> > Riza
> 
> 
> Sascha
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> > http://mail.yahoo.com 
> > 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Lluís Batlle]

To me happened that when I created my user, due to some control-char,
the directory created was not "/usr/myname", but "/usr/*name", where
"*" is a character visible only on certain places. For instance, it's
not visible in 'acme', but visible in a shell.
Of course, I cannot remove that directory because I don't know how did
I type that character. :)
Check so a simple "lc /usr"

2006/2/7, Riza Dindir <rdindir@yahoo.com>:
>
> That is the problem. I can not run the
> /sys/lib/newuser
> script at the teminal prompt. Either I am not writing
> the command correctly (this might be but I doubt it),
> or it is because I do not have any permissins to get
> to the directory /sys/lib and execute the newuser
> script. Which is a bit strange. Because I can list the
> contents (ls) of the /sys directory, but can not get
> into the /sys/lib directory in order to see the
> scripts...
>
> Riza
>
> --- Sascha Retzki <sretzki@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 05:07:43AM -0800, Riza
> > Dindir wrote:
> > >
> > > Nils O. Sel?sdal wrote:
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > Why not ? (what happens when you try to run
> > > > /sys/lib/newuser ?)
> > >
> > > After I created the user with fossilcons I have
> > > rebooted
> > > the system (fshalt). After starting up the system
> > to
> > > log in as user1 it gave me these error messages...
> >
> > ... because you did not yet execute
> > /sys/lib/newuser. It is a script.
> > Just execute it and reboot again.
> >
> > >
> > > I have entered these things when login in:
> > >
> > > root is from (tcp, il, local)
> > [local!@d/sdC0/fossil]:
> > > <ENTER>
> > > user [none]: user1
> > >
> >
> > You did everything right.
> >
> > > The messages were:
> > >
> > > dossrv: serving #s/dos
> > > lib/profile: rc: .: can't open: '
> > > bin/lib' file does not exist
> >
> > That happens because you did not yet run the
> > newuser-script which copies
> > a "basic" profile-file (among others of course) to
> > your homedir.
> >
> > > It is a black terminal screen... I can list the
> > > contents of my directory. It is empty. The working
> >
> > Because you did not yet... ;)
> >
> > > directory is /.../user1. When I try to list the
> > > contents of /sys I can see the directories under
> > it.
> > > But can not list the contents of /sys/lib or any
> > other
> > > directory in that...
> > >
> >
> > That is good/ok/like it should be. Just execute...
> >
> > > Riza
> >
> >
> > Sascha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[andrey mirtchovski]

On 2/7/06, Lluís Batlle <viriketo@gmail.com> wrote:
> To me happened that when I created my user, due to some control-char,
> the directory created was not "/usr/myname", but "/usr/*name", where
> "*" is a character visible only on certain places. For instance, it's
> not visible in 'acme', but visible in a shell.
> Of course, I cannot remove that directory because I don't know how did
> I type that character. :)
> Check so a simple "lc /usr"
>

most likely you typed ctrl+c or some other unix sequence that is a
printable character in Plan 9...

riza: we still haven't seen any error messages. do you mind sending
those to the list?

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Russ Cox]

> riza: we still haven't seen any error messages. do you mind sending
> those to the list?

specifically, what is the exact output that you get from running:

ls /sys/lib
ls /sys/lib/newuser
/sys/lib/newuser

russ

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[uriel]

> To me happened that when I created my user, due to some control-char,
> the directory created was not "/usr/myname", but "/usr/*name", where
> "*" is a character visible only on certain places. For instance, it's
> not visible in 'acme', but visible in a shell.
> Of course, I cannot remove that directory because I don't know how did
> I type that character. :)
rm /usr/?foo

uriel

[9fans] newbie question

[Riza Dindir]

andrey mirtchovski wrote:

[...]
> that terminal is where you're supposed to run
> /sys/lib/newuser. do  
> you get an error when you do that?

> /sys/lib/newuser populates your directory creating
> bin/ lib/ and tmp/  
> and copying a standard lib/profile in it. it is
> this file that sets  
> up your environment.

> if, for whatever reason you can't get
> /sys/lib/newuser to go, try  
> this by hand:

> mkdir /usr/user1/bin
> mkdir /usr/user1/bin/386
> mkdir /usr/user1/bin/rc
> mkdir /usr/user1/lib
> mkdir /usr/user1/tmp
> cp /usr/glenda/lib/profile /usr/user1/lib/profile
> cp /usr/glenda/bin/rc/* /usr/user1/bin/rc

> that should give you the same start menu as glenda
> (without the first  
> email she has).

Why do we need to do this manually?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Riza Dindir]

Nils O. Sel?sdal wrote:
[...]

> Why not ? (what happens when you try to run
> /sys/lib/newuser ?)

After I created the user with fossilcons I have
rebooted
the system (fshalt). After starting up the system to
log in as user1 it gave me these error messages...

I have entered these things when login in:

root is from (tcp, il, local) [local!@d/sdC0/fossil]:
<ENTER>
user [none]: user1

The messages were:

dossrv: serving #s/dos
lib/profile: rc: .: can't open: '
bin/lib' file does not exist
init: rc exit status: rc 23: can't open
init: starting /bin/rc

I have the prompt and see the mouse arrow on screen.
It is a black terminal screen... I can list the
contents of my directory. It is empty. The working
directory is /.../user1. When I try to list the
contents of /sys I can see the directories under it.
But can not list the contents of /sys/lib or any other
directory in that...

Riza



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[9fans] newbie question

[Riza Dindir]

Hey all,

I donloaded Plan9 (the fourth version I think), from
the
http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/plan9/download.html
website.

The installation went smooth.

When the system boots I log in using the user name
glenda (as told in the installation instructions).
I get to the windows environment (rio I believe).

As the next thing, I wanted to create a user that
I can use to log in to the system. I tried to create
a new user. I was able to do these things...

con -l /srv/fscons
uname user1 user1
uname sys +user1
Ctrl-\ c <ENTER>

When I tried to do

auth/changeuser user1

it requested passwords and other information. After
that it returned me an error message (this might be
understandable, because I installed it on my laptop,
which is a standalone machine)...

I can see the new user "user1" in the /adm/users
file.

The next step is to run the /sys/lib/newuser for the
user "user1". For this I need to log in to the system
using this user. But when I reboot the system (by
using fshalt and doing CTRL-ALT-DEL) it asks
me for the file system (I think), where I accept the
default value (local) and then asks me to enter
a user name. I enter "user1" as the username. But
when I use this user, it does not get into the
windowing environment. It displays a couple of error
messages on the screen. The directory for the user
is empty. And I can not run the /sys/lib/newuser
on that terminal like screen.

Can you guys tell me what I am doing wrong? I want to
log in as the new user "user1" and run the newuser
command.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards,
Riza


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Re: [9fans] newbie question

[andrey mirtchovski]

I enter "user1" as the username. But
> when I use this user, it does not get into the
> windowing environment. It displays a couple of error
> messages on the screen. The directory for the user
> is empty. And I can not run the /sys/lib/newuser
> on that terminal like screen.

that terminal is where you're supposed to run /sys/lib/newuser. do  
you get an error when you do that?

/sys/lib/newuser populates your directory creating bin/ lib/ and tmp/  
and copying a standard lib/profile in it. it is this file that sets  
up your environment.

if, for whatever reason you can't get /sys/lib/newuser to go, try  
this by hand:

mkdir /usr/user1/bin
mkdir /usr/user1/bin/386
mkdir /usr/user1/bin/rc
mkdir /usr/user1/lib
mkdir /usr/user1/tmp
cp /usr/glenda/lib/profile /usr/user1/lib/profile
cp /usr/glenda/bin/rc/* /usr/user1/bin/rc

that should give you the same start menu as glenda (without the first  
email she has).

Re: [9fans] newbie question

["Nils O. Selåsdal"]

Riza Dindir wrote:
[...]
> The next step is to run the /sys/lib/newuser for the
> user "user1". For this I need to log in to the system
> using this user. But when I reboot the system (by
> using fshalt and doing CTRL-ALT-DEL) it asks
> me for the file system (I think), where I accept the
> default value (local) and then asks me to enter
> a user name. I enter "user1" as the username. But
> when I use this user, it does not get into the
> windowing environment. It displays a couple of error
> messages on the screen. The directory for the user
> is empty. And I can not run the /sys/lib/newuser
> on that terminal like screen.

Why not ? (what happens when you try to run /sys/lib/newuser ?)

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Russ Cox]

> When I tried to do
> 
> auth/changeuser user1
> 
> it requested passwords and other information.  After
> that it returned me an error message (this might be
> understandable, because I installed it on my laptop,
> which is a standalone machine)...

You don't need to run auth/changeuser for a single-machine
installation.  Changeuser edits the authentication server
database, but you have no authentication server yet.

Russ

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Lluís Batlle]

Can there be a password challenge for a single machine (without any
auth server in the net)?

2006/2/6, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com>:
>
> > When I tried to do
> >
> > auth/changeuser user1
> >
> > it requested passwords and other information.  After
> > that it returned me an error message (this might be
> > understandable, because I installed it on my laptop,
> > which is a standalone machine)...
>
> You don't need to run auth/changeuser for a single-machine
> installation.  Changeuser edits the authentication server
> database, but you have no authentication server yet.
>
> Russ
>

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Russ Cox]

> Can there be a password challenge for a single machine (without any
> auth server in the net)?

You could write a program and run it in termrc/cpurc if you
are worried.  The short answer is no.

Russ

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Lluís Batlle]

Hummm I meant... for each user. For instance, how can more than a user
share a single plan9 machine (using time-slicing :) in a way a user
can not bother others?

2006/2/6, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com>:
> > Can there be a password challenge for a single machine (without any
> > auth server in the net)?
>
> You could write a program and run it in termrc/cpurc if you
> are worried.  The short answer is no.
>
> Russ
>

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[uriel]

> Hummm I meant... for each user. For instance, how can more than a user
> share a single plan9 machine (using time-slicing :) in a way a user
> can not bother others?
This is a FAQ, digging in the 9fans archives will find lots of discussion
about it. My conclusion is:

If you have access to the hardware, asking for a password is
naive at best, and deceiving at worst.

It is possible that some form of full disk encryption could help, but
no other 'mainstream' OSes do that AFAIK.

uriel


> 
> 2006/2/6, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com>:
>> > Can there be a password challenge for a single machine (without any
>> > auth server in the net)?
>>
>> You could write a program and run it in termrc/cpurc if you
>> are worried.  The short answer is no.
>>
>> Russ
>>

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[andrey mirtchovski]

>
> It is possible that some form of full disk encryption could help, but
> no other 'mainstream' OSes do that AFAIK.

that exists for plan9 already. it'll probably be released when it's  
ready.

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Russ Cox]

> > It is possible that some form of full disk encryption could help, but
> > no other 'mainstream' OSes do that AFAIK.
> 
> that exists for plan9 already.  it'll probably be released when it's
> ready.

i'll release it now.

/n/sources/contrib/rsc/cryptfs
/n/sources/contrib/rsc/rot13fs.c

russ

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[uriel]

>> > It is possible that some form of full disk encryption could help, but
>> > no other 'mainstream' OSes do that AFAIK.
>> 
>> that exists for plan9 already.  it'll probably be released when it's
>> ready.
> 
> i'll release it now.
> 
> /n/sources/contrib/rsc/cryptfs
> /n/sources/contrib/rsc/rot13fs.c
Thanks!

uriel

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[lucio]

> i'll release it now.
> 
> /n/sources/contrib/rsc/cryptfs
> /n/sources/contrib/rsc/rot13fs.c

Would it not be preferable to have these in the extras?  It seems to
me that extras could hold officially sanctioned utilities that do not
need to be part of the distribution.  On the one hand, this makes them
easier to find and on the other it relieves the burden of having to
maintain them and replica/pull them when not required.  TeX makes a
good case, ghostscript less so.

Mature contribs ought to be migrated to extras as well.  Sooner,
rather than later.

++L

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[rog]

> i'll release it now.
> 
> /n/sources/contrib/rsc/cryptfs

a few brief notes on how one might use it?

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Russ Cox]

> > /n/sources/contrib/rsc/cryptfs
>
> a few brief notes on how one might use it?

use it like kfs.  it will ask you for a password when it starts.
each block is (separately) aes-cbc encrypted with a key
derived from that password.

russ

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Russ Cox]

> > Hummm I meant...  for each user.  For instance, how can more than a user
> > share a single plan9 machine (using time-slicing :) in a way a user
> > can not bother others?

Depends on what you mean.  If you want multiple people
logged into the same machine, with all but one of them
connecting over the network, then yes you can do that.
You need to set up the machine as a standalone
cpu/auth/terminal.  There are instructions in the wiki.

If you want people to be able to log in and log out of the
machine one at a time in person, then no, there's no support
for that.  There have been discussions about this in the
past, and in fact someone did build something to do this
for the previous authentication model.  It would require
some kernel hacking.

> If you have access to the hardware, asking for a password is
> naive at best, and deceiving at worst.

This isn't completely true.  Public computer labs manage
to work well enough in many places.

> It is possible that some form of full disk encryption could help, but
> no other 'mainstream' OSes do that AFAIK.

OS X does.

Russ

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> It is possible that some form of full disk encryption could help, but
>> no other 'mainstream' OSes do that AFAIK.
> 
> OS X does.

Windows does.

Re: [9fans] newbie question

[William Josephson]

On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 09:21:49PM +0100, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> It is possible that some form of full disk encryption could help, but
> no other 'mainstream' OSes do that AFAIK.

I think you get a lot less mileage out of this sort of thing
than most people seem to believe.  But OS X, FreeBSD, and I
believe Linux all support it.  I'm sure someone has a VxD
for Windows to do it, too, but I've never had reason to
investigate.

 -WJ