Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

deadlock or livelock?

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Gorka guardiola]

> deadlock or livelock?

Let's see.

What I need to start going is:

A) a formal date (May 2006 is not concrete enough)

B) an estimation of attendance

C) list of people who need acommodation or help
to get acommodation (on such a short notice, no funding though I may
host someone and maybe some others can, I dont know).

D) a program. Any voluntaries to give conferences?.

So for

A) I propose the 10th of March.
B) Send me a message if you plan to attend with requirements of acommodation
C) See B
D) This should be discussed in the list and proposals can be made (i.e. I am not
doing it).
--
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Gabriel Diaz]

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Hello,


> A) I propose the 10th of March.

 The weekend from 10 to 12 is nice. March is a good month in Madrid as
there is no summer weather.

>
> D) This should be discussed in the list and proposals can be made (i.e. I
> am not
> doing it).
> --

 yes , you're ;-)
 Gabi

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Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Gorka guardiola]

So, for the 10th of March weekend, anyone against, anyone in favour? anyone
would come?.

On 11/22/05, Gabriel Diaz <gabidiaz@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
>
> >
> > A) I propose the 10th of March.
>
>
> The weekend from 10 to 12 is nice. March is a good month in Madrid as
> there is no summer weather.
>
> >
> > D) This should be discussed in the list and proposals can be made (i.e. I
> am not
> > doing it).
> > --
>
>
> yes , you're ;-)
>
> Gabi


--
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Uriel]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 04:16:23PM +0100, Gorka guardiola wrote:
> So, for the 10th of March weekend, anyone against, anyone in favour? anyone
> would come?.

To me that sounds too close to FOSDEM and Linux-Tag, see:
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/9con/

uriel

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Gorka guardiola]

Any other date proposals?

On 11/22/05, Uriel <uriell@binarydream.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 04:16:23PM +0100, Gorka guardiola wrote:
> > So, for the 10th of March weekend, anyone against, anyone in favour? anyone
> > would come?.
>
> To me that sounds too close to FOSDEM and Linux-Tag, see:
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/9con/
>
> uriel
>


--
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Gabriel Diaz]

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Hi,
 If there is anyone interested in turism, a good date can be the
days before sacred week in april ( may be tuesday 10 and wed. 11 so
people can do turism the thursday 12,friday 13 and the weekend 14)

I would suggest to avoid the summer months as Madrid
can be a hell-like city :) ( > 40ºC). (beyond june and until september)
 If not interested in turism, a nice week can be last one of april.
 Gabi
 2005/11/22, Gorka guardiola <paurea@gmail.com>:
>
> Any other date proposals?
>
> On 11/22/05, Uriel <uriell@binarydream.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 04:16:23PM +0100, Gorka guardiola wrote:
> > > So, for the 10th of March weekend, anyone against, anyone in favour?
> anyone
> > > would come?.
> >
> > To me that sounds too close to FOSDEM and Linux-Tag, see:
> > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/9con/
> >
> > uriel
> >
>
>
> --
> - curiosity sKilled the cat
>

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Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

Gorka guardiola wrote:
> So, for the 10th of March weekend, anyone against, anyone in favour? anyone
> would come?.

I'm interested. I will be happy to attend and wear a hat that says 
'uriel thinks I'm an xcpu fool'.  This is clearly nowhere near as 
prestigious as a T-shirt that says 'jim thinks  I'm a dickhead', but it 
will have to do.

I've done these sorts of programs before if you want help, or you just 
want it done (I'm going to regret this). I think 2.5 days might do it. 
What we used to do for extreme linux is have 90 minute sessions, heavy 
on discussion. So you have three 20 minute talks, 30 minutes of 
discussion of the material presented. You do this four times a day. You 
can mix it up -- have sessions with 3 30-minute talks if you can find it.

Then you pick the broad areas in which to have the discussion.

ron

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

Gorka guardiola wrote:
> Any other date proposals?

just do what you want. You are going to collide with something no matter 
what you do. It's your location, pick the time that is easiest for you 
to manage.

ron

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Roman Shaposhnick]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 04:16:23PM +0100, Gorka guardiola wrote:
> So, for the 10th of March weekend, anyone against, anyone in favour? anyone
> would come?.

 I would absolutely love it to be on 10th of March weekend. There's a 98%
 chance that I could come. Any other time is iffy.

Thanks,
Roman.

P.S. The reason for me is simple -- visa constraints. I'm very likely 
to have a German VISA for a trip in May, but I'm not sure I'll get 
a Spanish one just to go to a 9con ;-) 
 
> 
> On 11/22/05, Gabriel Diaz <gabidiaz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > A) I propose the 10th of March.
> >
> >
> > The weekend from 10 to 12 is nice. March is a good month in Madrid as
> > there is no summer weather.
> >
> > >
> > > D) This should be discussed in the list and proposals can be made (i.e. I
> > am not
> > > doing it).
> > > --
> >
> >
> > yes , you're ;-)
> >
> > Gabi
> 
> 
> --
> - curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Roman Shaposhnick]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 04:16:23PM +0100, Gorka guardiola wrote:
> So, for the 10th of March weekend, anyone against, anyone in favour? anyone
> would come?.

  Sorry. I misread it as being in May. March is, of course, much more iffy
  for me for the reasons I've cited.

Thanks,
Roman.

> 
> On 11/22/05, Gabriel Diaz <gabidiaz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > A) I propose the 10th of March.
> >
> >
> > The weekend from 10 to 12 is nice. March is a good month in Madrid as
> > there is no summer weather.
> >
> > >
> > > D) This should be discussed in the list and proposals can be made (i.e. I
> > am not
> > > doing it).
> > > --
> >
> >
> > yes , you're ;-)
> >
> > Gabi
> 
> 
> --
> - curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[andrey mirtchovski]

i've got to stop posting from different addresses -- your message
arrived while i was composing my install update and i used the first
available mailer to reply to it. sorry for the confusion.

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Anselm R. Garbe]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 03:09:45PM +0100, Gorka guardiola wrote:
> A) I propose the 10th of March.

March is not the best date because of CLT'06[0] and FOSDEM'06[1]
which would make it impossible for me and others to visit the
9con, because crossing Europe for three times in 4 weeks is
pretty expensive taking time and money into account.

Thus I'd prefer May 5 - May 7 or in late summer around the 9/11
weekend in 2006.

[0] http://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2006/info/ (Mar 4 - Mar 5)
[1] http://www.fosdem.org/ (Feb 25 - Feb 26)

Regards,
-- 
 Anselm R. Garbe  ><><  www.ebrag.de  ><><  GPG key: 0D73F361

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[andrey mirtchovski]

> P.S. The reason for me is simple -- visa constraints. I'm very likely
> to have a German VISA for a trip in May, but I'm not sure I'll get
> a Spanish one just to go to a 9con ;-)

you russians still blacklisted for Schengen countries? tsk, tsk, tsk!

if you have a german visa you can go to spain without a problem -- that's
the idea of the Schengen treaty. spain is a member.

for more information visit: http://www.eurovisa.info/

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Roman Shaposhnick]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 09:35:23PM +0100, Anselm R. Garbe wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 03:09:45PM +0100, Gorka guardiola wrote:
> > A) I propose the 10th of March.
> 
> March is not the best date because of CLT'06[0] and FOSDEM'06[1]
> which would make it impossible for me and others to visit the
> 9con, because crossing Europe for three times in 4 weeks is
> pretty expensive taking time and money into account.
> 
> Thus I'd prefer May 5 - May 7 or in late summer around the 9/11
> weekend in 2006.

  Make it two votes for early May.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

early may sounds good to me I guess.

How long would this thing run for? how serious is it? Is it a bunch of 
guys around a keg or a larger and more serious meeting?

ron

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Jeff Sickel]

On Nov 22, 2005, at 10:25 PM, Ronald G Minnich wrote:

> early may sounds good to me I guess.

Hrm... how about something that starts in Madrid, heads to Barcelona,  
gets on a sail boat heading for Dubrovnik?  I need to be in or around  
Dubrovnik for a workshop in July or August and wouldn't mind tying  
things together so I would only need to make one trip over the giant  
pond.

jas

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Gorka guardiola]

On 11/23/05, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> early may sounds good to me I guess.
>
> How long would this thing run for? how serious is it? Is it a bunch of
> guys around a keg or a larger and more serious meeting?
>

Depends on how many people come and so. We have room for a small
or large meeting...

--
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Uriel]

So, can we agree on a date? Apparently May seems the most convenient for
most people, what about the 5,6,7 or the 12,13,14?

On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 09:55:53AM -0700, Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> I've done these sorts of programs before if you want help, or you just 
> want it done (I'm going to regret this). I think 2.5 days might do it. 
> What we used to do for extreme linux is have 90 minute sessions, heavy 
> on discussion. So you have three 20 minute talks, 30 minutes of 
> discussion of the material presented. You do this four times a day. You 
> can mix it up -- have sessions with 3 30-minute talks if you can find it.
This sounds like a good plan.
 
> Then you pick the broad areas in which to have the discussion.
My suggestions for broad areas(I'm biased, so pleas make more
suggestions):

Plan 9 development status, current projects.
Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
Tech transfer to other systems(p9p, v9fs, ...)
Inferno/Limbo
9grid and other global infrastructure
Development process.

uriel

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Dave Lukes]

Well, my birthday's on the 16th, so I'm biased:-).

Uriel wrote:

>So, can we agree on a date? Apparently May seems the most convenient for
>most people, what about the 5,6,7 or the 12,13,14?
>
>On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 09:55:53AM -0700, Ronald G Minnich wrote:
>  
>
>>I've done these sorts of programs before if you want help, or you just 
>>want it done (I'm going to regret this). I think 2.5 days might do it. 
>>What we used to do for extreme linux is have 90 minute sessions, heavy 
>>on discussion. So you have three 20 minute talks, 30 minutes of 
>>discussion of the material presented. You do this four times a day. You 
>>can mix it up -- have sessions with 3 30-minute talks if you can find it.
>>    
>>
>This sounds like a good plan.
> 
>  
>
>>Then you pick the broad areas in which to have the discussion.
>>    
>>
>My suggestions for broad areas(I'm biased, so pleas make more
>suggestions):
>
>Plan 9 development status, current projects.
>Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
>Tech transfer to other systems(p9p, v9fs, ...)
>Inferno/Limbo
>9grid and other global infrastructure
>Development process.
>
>uriel
>  
>

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Gorka guardiola]

Ok. Send me a mail those who would go/give conferences on the 5, 6, 7.
Unless there is (strong) opposition, this is the date. Some funding
for travelling
may be considered if someone is giving an interesting enough conference.


On 11/30/05, Dave Lukes <davel@anvil.com> wrote:
> Well, my birthday's on the 16th, so I'm biased:-).
>
> Uriel wrote:
>
> >So, can we agree on a date? Apparently May seems the most convenient for
> >most people, what about the 5,6,7 or the 12,13,14?
> >
> >On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 09:55:53AM -0700, Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I've done these sorts of programs before if you want help, or you just
> >>want it done (I'm going to regret this). I think 2.5 days might do it.
> >>What we used to do for extreme linux is have 90 minute sessions, heavy
> >>on discussion. So you have three 20 minute talks, 30 minutes of
> >>discussion of the material presented. You do this four times a day. You
> >>can mix it up -- have sessions with 3 30-minute talks if you can find it.
> >>
> >>
> >This sounds like a good plan.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Then you pick the broad areas in which to have the discussion.
> >>
> >>
> >My suggestions for broad areas(I'm biased, so pleas make more
> >suggestions):
> >
> >Plan 9 development status, current projects.
> >Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
> >Tech transfer to other systems(p9p, v9fs, ...)
> >Inferno/Limbo
> >9grid and other global infrastructure
> >Development process.
> >
> >uriel
> >
> >
>
>


--
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

>> Plan 9 development status, current projects.
>> Plan 9 future development plans and goals.

that one is kind of nebulous.

>> Tech transfer to other systems(p9p, v9fs, ...)
>> Inferno/Limbo
>> 9grid and other global infrastructure
>> Development process.
>>

user views.

surviving with a plan 9 desktop in a linux/windows world

what's missing in plan 9 that users want? how do we get it?

64-bit platforms

ron

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Kenneth Long]

--- Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:

> 
> >> Plan 9 development status, current projects.
> >> Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
> 
> that one is kind of nebulous.
> 

Why is it Nebulous?  I'm a newbie... :-)




		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Music Unlimited 
Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. 
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

Kenneth Long wrote:

>>>>Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
>>
>>that one is kind of nebulous.

because for every person on this list it has a different meaning. I think.

ron

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

Kenneth Long wrote:

>>>>Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
>>
>>that one is kind of nebulous.

because for every person on this list it has a different meaning. I think.

ron

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Uriel]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2005 at 10:55:52AM -0700, Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> Kenneth Long wrote:
> 
> >>>>Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
> >>
> >>that one is kind of nebulous.
> 
> because for every person on this list it has a different meaning. I think.
The idea is to share the different views/meanings everyone has and try
to find common ground for collaboration.

uriel

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

["Nils O. Selåsdal"]

Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> Kenneth Long wrote:
> 
>>>>> Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
>>>
>>>
>>> that one is kind of nebulous.
> 
> 
> because for every person on this list it has a different meaning. I think.

I disagree.

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

Nils O. Selåsdal wrote:
> Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> 
>> Kenneth Long wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> that one is kind of nebulous.
>>
>>
>>
>> because for every person on this list it has a different meaning. I 
>> think.
> 
> 
> I disagree.

well, case in point.. for me, our future development includes xcpu and 
clustering. Others think xcpu is a horrible mistake. So, in that case at 
least, 'the future' has a very different meaning.

do you really think that 'Plan 9 future development plans and goals' is 
really the same for everyone? Or are you saying that is has a future (i 
don't think everyone agrees even on that :-)

or do we agree but think we disagree?

ron

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

["Nils O. Selåsdal"]

Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> Nils O. Selåsdal wrote:
> 
>> Ronald G Minnich wrote:
>>
>>> Kenneth Long wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> that one is kind of nebulous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> because for every person on this list it has a different meaning. I 
>>> think.
>>
>>
>>
>> I disagree.
> 
> 
> well, case in point.. for me, our future development includes xcpu and 
> clustering. Others think xcpu is a horrible mistake. So, in that case at 
> least, 'the future' has a very different meaning.
> 
> do you really think that 'Plan 9 future development plans and goals' is 
> really the same for everyone? Or are you saying that is has a future (i 
> don't think everyone agrees even on that :-)
> 
> or do we agree but think we disagree?

Sorry to be an idiot at subtle sarcasm/puns.

We agree on it having different meaning, and I do think it has a future.

[9fans] A new user says hello!

[javacoffee.de]

Hi all!

I'm a completely new member of the Plan 9 Community and I just wanted to
say Hello to all!! I hope I can support this OS with my knowledge... ;)

So: Hello! ;)

TamTam

-- 

------------------------------------
http://javacoffee.de 

"Die Commmunity mit Aroma!"

http://benny-thegame.de.vu

"Die ofizielle Seite von Benny - The Game!"
------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] A new user says hello!

[Sergey Zhilkin]

Hello to you ! :) from Russia ! :)


On 12/1/05, javacoffee.de <javacoffee@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> I'm a completely new member of the Plan 9 Community and I just wanted to
> say Hello to all!! I hope I can support this OS with my knowledge... ;)
>
> So: Hello! ;)
>
> TamTam
>
> --
>
> ------------------------------------
> http://javacoffee.de
>
> "Die Commmunity mit Aroma!"
>
> http://benny-thegame.de.vu
>
> "Die ofizielle Seite von Benny - The Game!"
> ------------------------------------
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[grfgguvf]

> >> Plan 9 development status, current projects.
> >> Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
>
> that one is kind of nebulous.

Am I the only one thinking everything Uriel says is kind of nebulous?

> >> Tech transfer to other systems(p9p, v9fs, ...)
> >> Inferno/Limbo
> >> 9grid and other global infrastructure
> >> Development process.
>
> user views.
>
> surviving with a plan 9 desktop in a linux/windows world

Anyone successful at this at all?

>
> what's missing in plan 9 that users want? how do we get it?
>
> 64-bit platforms

+ xcpu

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Gorka guardiola]

On 12/1/05, grfgguvf@gmail.com <grfgguvf@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > surviving with a plan 9 desktop in a linux/windows world
>
> Anyone successful at this at all?
>

There will also be talk(s)/demo(s) of Plan B which is addressing this problem.
--
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Lucio De Re]

> Am I the only one thinking everything Uriel says is kind of nebulous?
> 
He's closer to Boyd (intentionally, I'm sure) than to Choates.  He
does put his code where his mouth is, even if others may prefer things
to be different.  It's hard to swallow that we may have a Linus in our
midst, but he's running in his own direction while most of us
spectators are horrified that he'd dare break away from the pack.
It's hard to predict whether this is going to be good or bad, I'm
willing, nay, keen, to give him the benefit of the doubt.

>> surviving with a plan 9 desktop in a linux/windows world
> 
> Anyone successful at this at all?
> 
I keep trying, but I lean hard on my NetBSD infrastructure.  Linux I
manage to avoid completely, but Windows has infected far too many
minds, including my girlfriend's, so I have to provide some support
for it.  I may as well enjoy some of its features :-(

> + xcpu

Sounds like I need to investigate this, but given the trouble I have
with the simple problem of sending mail from a diskless Plan 9
workstation that is on the wrong side of a firewall from the CPU/file
server, I'm not sure I want to discover how little I understand.  Add
to that a budget for only the most obsolete of equipment and xcpu does
not seem terribly relevant.  I'm happy to be proven wrong, however.

++L

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Steve Simon]

> > surviving with a plan 9 desktop in a linux/windows world
> 
> Anyone successful at this at all?

I think I am, I work in an almost exclusively Windows office
though I use rx to run gcc and vncv to browse the net for sites
abaco won't handle.

Sure, an ldap client, ported gcc cross enviroment, and a native,
fully compatible web browser would be nice but the alternative
is WinXP.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

grfgguvf@gmail.com wrote:

> Anyone successful at this at all?

I'm about to try -- I'm going to format my linux drive and just go plan 
9 terminal, and try to see how bad it's going to be.

> 
> 
>>what's missing in plan 9 that users want? how do we get it?
>>
>>64-bit platforms
> 
> 
> + xcpu

well, I like that!

ron

Re: [9fans] A new user says hello!

[Yury Luneff]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 876 bytes --]

me too :). Hi2all. Of course, simple greeting's some king of stupidity,
but I'm also interested in this OS and I don't know anything in concrete
manner about it. Just "iso" in qemu. :)
> Hello to you ! :) from Russia ! :)
> 
> 
> On 12/1/05, javacoffee.de <javacoffee@gmx.de> wrote:
> > Hi all!
> >
> > I'm a completely new member of the Plan 9 Community and I just wanted to
> > say Hello to all!! I hope I can support this OS with my knowledge... ;)
> >
> > So: Hello! ;)
> >
> > TamTam
> >
> > --
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > http://javacoffee.de
> >
> > "Die Commmunity mit Aroma!"
> >
> > http://benny-thegame.de.vu
> >
> > "Die ofizielle Seite von Benny - The Game!"
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> 
-- 
Yury Luneff,
TSURE, 2005.            ICQ 293527227           JabberID bitterman@jabber.ttn.ru

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Re: [9fans] A new user says hello!

[Sascha Retzki]

On Fri, Dec 02, 2005 at 05:14:42PM +0300, Yury Luneff wrote:
> Of course, simple greeting's some king of stupidity,

Yes.

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[David Leimbach]

On 12/1/05, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> grfgguvf@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Anyone successful at this at all?
>
> I'm about to try -- I'm going to format my linux drive and just go plan
> 9 terminal, and try to see how bad it's going to be.

Hmm, a lot of what I do is remote testing... so if I can get an ssh
session going in vt I can live in plan 9 for a few days at a time.

To my left is a dual G5 PowerMac though for all other tasks... I have
been trying increasingly to avoid swivelling left.  I find the total
lack of eye candy and fully functional web applications makes it
easier for me to focus on my work :)

There's a ton of crap software on every other machine I totally just
don't need.  But there are a few things that I think would make Plan 9
more enjoyable.

* Abaco completion :) [or other web browser... though I really like
abaco so far]
* Virtual desktops... [rio sessions help but really don't quite get it for me].
* More hardware support.  [I wish I had the time to finish that dang
OHCI driver so I could hook up my USB Sound Sticks I have on my mac in
Plan 9... I'm fairly well wed to the whole mac iTunes experience at
this point though so this one is not so important.]

I already do somewhat weird things like hook up my scanner to Windows
XP and use Inferno to move files around to desktops that I send mail
from for reporting expenses for travel.

I might look into messing with Rio... that's the last thing I was
experimenting with on Plan 9 a few months back.

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Russ Cox]

> * Virtual desktops... [rio sessions help but really don't quite get it for me].

You should be able to use the interface that rio
already provides to write a little program to do
virtual desktops.  Winwatch shows almost everything
you need to worry about.  To switch desktops just
hide all the windows on the current desktop and
unhide the ones on the new desktop.

Russ

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

David Leimbach wrote:


> * Virtual desktops... [rio sessions help but really don't quite get it for me].

did that not make it into plan 9 rio?


ron

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Federico Benavento]

> * Abaco completion :) [or other web browser... though I really like
> abaco so far]

I've been very busy with final exams, but I'll continue
abaco's development in about 2 weeks.

people against abaco say that we don't need a web
browser, because we have vnc, and of course I don't
agree with this point of view.

> > Anyone successful at this at all?
I think I am too.

one thing that bothers me is that Plan 9 doesn't interact very well
with gmail. (i.e. incoming mails disappear
after a few seconds)

--
Federico G. Benavento

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

Federico Benavento wrote:

> people against abaco say that we don't need a web
> browser, because we have vnc, 

That's a very odd argument, which if followed to its logical conclusion, 
I guess means we don't need anything. Reductio Ad Windows.

ron

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Russ Cox]

> one thing that bothers me is that Plan 9 doesn't interact very well
> with gmail. (i.e. incoming mails disappear
> after a few seconds)

This is not Plan 9's (upas/fs's POP module's) fault,
and the Gmail people don't care to fix it.
My roommate has exactly the same problem trying to read
Gmail via POP on his cell phone.

Russ

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> * Virtual desktops... [rio sessions help but really don't quite get it for me].
> 
> You should be able to use the interface that rio
> already provides to write a little program to do
> virtual desktops.  Winwatch shows almost everything
> you need to worry about.  To switch desktops just
> hide all the windows on the current desktop and
> unhide the ones on the new desktop.

this reminds me...

I want to add "hide" feature to winwatch that works by using the left
mouse button click on a window's placeholder in winwatch.  thoughts?

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

["Nils O. Selåsdal"]

Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>>> * Virtual desktops... [rio sessions help but really don't quite get it for me].
>> You should be able to use the interface that rio
>> already provides to write a little program to do
>> virtual desktops.  Winwatch shows almost everything
>> you need to worry about.  To switch desktops just
>> hide all the windows on the current desktop and
>> unhide the ones on the new desktop.
> 
> this reminds me...
> 
> I want to add "hide" feature to winwatch that works by using the left
> mouse button click on a window's placeholder in winwatch.  thoughts?

rmb hides, lmb brings to front . Or just lmb toggles hiding or showing.

(just _a_ thought)

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[jmk]

On Fri Dec  2 12:52:43 EST 2005, rminnich@lanl.gov wrote:
> Federico Benavento wrote:
> 
> > people against abaco say that we don't need a web
> > browser, because we have vnc, 
> 
> That's a very odd argument, which if followed to its logical conclusion, 
> I guess means we don't need anything. Reductio Ad Windows.
> 
> ron

Of course, you can go to far in the
other direction, Aggregato Ad Linuxum.

Moderation in all things.

--jim

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> Or just lmb toggles hiding or showing.

looking at click(), I came to the same conclusion, but using the mouse&4 as now.

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Ronald G Minnich]

jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:

> Moderation in all things.

where's the fun in that? Nothing exceeds like excess.

ron

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Tim Wiess]

I am not absolutely positive that I'll be able to attend, however if
I can I'd be happy to talk on issues related to some of the projects
I'm currently working on.

    - 64-bit MIPS port & VM enhancments
    - new packet filter
    - 9P for OpenBSD

I'm eventually planning on putting some material together to describe
the process of porting Plan 9 to new architectures. This would be
something I'd be happy to present at 9con.

Just some thoughts...
Let me know how things progress.

Tim


> Ok. Send me a mail those who would go/give conferences on the 5, 6, 7.
> Unless there is (strong) opposition, this is the date. Some funding
> for travelling
> may be considered if someone is giving an interesting enough conference.
> 
> 
> On 11/30/05, Dave Lukes <davel@anvil.com> wrote:
>> Well, my birthday's on the 16th, so I'm biased:-).
>>
>> Uriel wrote:
>>
>> >So, can we agree on a date? Apparently May seems the most convenient for
>> >most people, what about the 5,6,7 or the 12,13,14?
>> >
>> >On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 09:55:53AM -0700, Ronald G Minnich wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>I've done these sorts of programs before if you want help, or you just
>> >>want it done (I'm going to regret this). I think 2.5 days might do it.
>> >>What we used to do for extreme linux is have 90 minute sessions, heavy
>> >>on discussion. So you have three 20 minute talks, 30 minutes of
>> >>discussion of the material presented. You do this four times a day. You
>> >>can mix it up -- have sessions with 3 30-minute talks if you can find it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >This sounds like a good plan.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>Then you pick the broad areas in which to have the discussion.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >My suggestions for broad areas(I'm biased, so pleas make more
>> >suggestions):
>> >
>> >Plan 9 development status, current projects.
>> >Plan 9 future development plans and goals.
>> >Tech transfer to other systems(p9p, v9fs, ...)
>> >Inferno/Limbo
>> >9grid and other global infrastructure
>> >Development process.
>> >
>> >uriel
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
> 
> 
> --
> - curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Wes Kussmaul]

For a truly fresh perspective on Plan 9 direction, perhaps this person 
can be talked into attending:

http://www.skyline2.co.uk/


-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the 
serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people 
collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the 
same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the 
serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a 
bit obscure.

                          P.K. Iggy
                          _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                            (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                            and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Paul Lalonde]

Oh my eyes, my beautiful eyes.

ouch.

Offtopic: (on topic?)  I've been playing with P9P, getting libdraw to  
open applications applications in the same window they were started  
it.  I've got it working except for the dreaded X11-is-single- 
threaded race condition.  Within a single proc it's easy to wrap the  
offending calls in a lock, but I'm looking at the case where  
different procs need to use the same window.  It seems that all I  
need is a nice, cheap, inter-process lock.  What's the most portable  
answer?

I'm astounded that this works as well as it does, by the way, without  
taking a lock: only when a window manager likes to bombard events  
down upon all the processes do things get hairy -  like running OS  
X's aqua-wm that wants to redraw the window contents during a  
resize.  Rio has no such problem, and doesn't trigger the X11 sync  
problem as a result.  Astoundingly usable.

Paul

On 2-Dec-05, at 12:26 PM, Wes Kussmaul wrote:

> For a truly fresh perspective on Plan 9 direction, perhaps this  
> person can be talked into attending:
>
> http://www.skyline2.co.uk/
>
>
> -- 
> Wes Kussmaul
> CIO
> The Village Group
> 738 Main Street
> Waltham, MA 02451
>
> 781-647-7178
>
>
> My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started  
> when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch  
> of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs  
> something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed  
> it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss  
> mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure.
>
>                          P.K. Iggy
>                          _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
>                            (Tales from the Great Infodepression of  
> 2009
>                            and the prosperity that followed)
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Russ Cox]

> Offtopic: (on topic?)  I've been playing with P9P, getting libdraw to
> open applications applications in the same window they were started
> it.  I've got it working except for the dreaded X11-is-single-
> threaded race condition.

Can you explain the race?

> Within a single proc it's easy to wrap the
> offending calls in a lock, but I'm looking at the case where
> different procs need to use the same window.
> It seems that all I
> need is a nice, cheap, inter-process lock.  What's the most portable
> answer?

Is it inter-process but still one program?  What are the specific
code pieces that need to be interlocked?  The multi-process
X apps in p9p each use their own display to avoid most of
the races.

Russ

Re: p9p open apps in same window (Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?)

[Axel Belinfante]

> Offtopic: (on topic?)  I've been playing with P9P, getting libdraw to  
> open applications applications in the same window they were started it.

Cool.

I've been thinking a bit about such functionality a while ago
but never got to work on it.

I was thinking along a different angle though:
my idea was to do it in rio, hoping I would somehow be able
to figure out from which window a new app was started
(probably there is env var WINDOWID or some such)
and then hide the original thing, and put the new
window in its place, hoping this would be general
enough to work with 'any' X app.

It must be the exposure to the real thing -
I think I now really would love to have that functionality.

Axel.

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Charles Forsyth]

> http://www.skyline2.co.uk/

an o/s in vb.net?  i can't wait!
it might give VxWorks a run for its money.

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Paul Lalonde]

On 2-Dec-05, at 12:46 PM, Russ Cox wrote:

>> I've got it working except for the dreaded X11-is-single-
>> threaded race condition.
>
> Can you explain the race?

Not well - it's an internal X11 thing.  As I understand it the server  
gets hosed when receiving messages on separate connections referring  
to the same objects - it appears to track a message ID and gets  
confused when it receives more pieces of a transaction without having  
come to the end of a previous one.  It typically shows up in multi- 
threaded apps, for which Xlib provides a locking mechanism.  Any non- 
atomic transaction can fail that way, and Xsync() calls get confused.

What winds up happening in my space is that I communicate the window- 
id through an environment variable, and libdraw grabs that ID if it  
exists.  X copes with that fine unless someone else winds up making  
calls on that window at the same time; for example the 9term that was  
in the window resizing along with the acme that currently has the  
window.

The better way is probably to use Xnest's code to make a virtual X  
server within a window and serve that through libdraw.  But what an  
ugly, monstrous mass of code to deal with.  But then all X apps would  
just work.  But I'm happy with just my plan9/libdraw apps working :-)

> Is it inter-process but still one program?  What are the specific
> code pieces that need to be interlocked?  The multi-process
> X apps in p9p each use their own display to avoid most of
> the races.

It is multi-program: acme "on top of" 9term, for example; any X call  
that takes a window id needs to be protected or else out of sequence  
errors can happen.

Can you describe what you mean by "their own display"?

Paul

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Axel Belinfante]

> Can you describe what you mean by "their own display"?

multiple calls to XOpenDisplay() each for a different kind
of events (mouse, keyboard, other) I seem to recall --
but Russ will surely correct/add.

Axel.

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> http://www.skyline2.co.uk/
> 
> an o/s in vb.net?  i can't wait!
> it might give VxWorks a run for its money.

they should add a spelling checker to their "HTML editor's" !

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Paul Lalonde]

That's edittor's.

Ouch.

On 2-Dec-05, at 3:24 PM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:

>>> http://www.skyline2.co.uk/
>>
>> an o/s in vb.net?  i can't wait!
>> it might give VxWorks a run for its money.
>
> they should add a spelling checker to their "HTML editor's" !
>

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[geoff]

I don't think people have been arguing that there's no point in a
native web browser, just that writing a full-blown web browser is more
work than writing an operating system used to be, and nobody has yet
had the time and energy.

Re: p9p open apps in same window (Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?)

[Lucio De Re]

> (probably there is env var WINDOWID or some such)

OK, let me make a fool of myself.  Is this not $wsys?

And whether it is or isn't, what is it in cpu(1) that clears it when
_I_ use it?

I discovered that the recommended "window -m ..." doesn't work as
$wsys is empty in my cpu session.  Is it something I said?

It _does_ work if I restore wsys= after the cpu response.  Then I
occasionally lose the plumber (or upas/fs, I'm not entirely sure), but
that's another story.

++L

Re: p9p open apps in same window (Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?)

[Russ Cox]

> OK, let me make a fool of myself.  Is this not $wsys?

Not on Unix.

> And whether it is or isn't, what is it in cpu(1) that clears it when
> _I_ use it?

This is in the default profile established by /sys/lib/newuser:

case cpu
	if (test -e /mnt/term/mnt/wsys) {
		# rio already running
		wsys = /mnt/term^`{cat /mnt/term/env/wsys}
		bind -a /mnt/term/mnt/wsys /dev
		echo -n $x^sysname > /dev/label
	}

Perhaps you are not setting it to begin with.

Russ

Re: p9p open apps in same window (Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?)

[Axel Belinfante]

To keep up the spirit of answering one's own emails:

> I was thinking along a different angle though:
> my idea was to do it in rio, hoping I would somehow be able
> to figure out from which window a new app was started
> (probably there is env var WINDOWID or some such)

Thinking (just a bit) more...
the env var is irrelevant since with above
approach rio will never see it anyway  -
rio will only see that a new window appears.
Rio does know which window is currently active,
and thus it might just decide to replace (overlay)
the 'body' of that one, if it is an 9term
(it can recognize those using X properties, I'm pretty sure)

Something like plan9's window would then be useful
to explicitly create new windows (9terms or directly apps)
(dunno if it's already there)
That should also take care of windows that are
programmatically created on startup.

There might be (will be?) races though -
it will take some time from the start of a
program till its window is created (appears)
which may or may not mess with above assumption
that the active window is the one to overlay.

oh well...
so far it is nothing more than an idea anyway (AFAIK)

Axel.


> and then hide the original thing, and put the new
> window in its place, hoping this would be general
> enough to work with 'any' X app.

Re: p9p open apps in same window (Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?)

[Paul Lalonde]

My current hack is based on the window ID in the environment; it  
works reasonably well with one caveat: the calling application should  
not use the window while the callee has it.  The X sync problem that  
happens is because the caller is called to resize, as well as the  
callee.  As far as mouse and keyboard events, that seems fine, as I  
redirect them to the new (child) window to receive them first.   I  
think there are really a limited number of cases to lock to stop the  
problem.

What does plan9 do when in a rio window I call "acme &"?  Does the  
acme still take over the window?  What happens to the shell?

One of the things that I have with my hack is a trivial "window"  
program that works like the plan9 one - very useful.  A wloc based on  
xwininfo rounds it out.  The last thing that it caused was more  
fussing with new namespace policies and service inheritance from a  
parent namespace.  It's ok for my current purposes, but still a  
little clunky.

Paul

On 4-Dec-05, at 3:00 PM, Axel Belinfante wrote:
> Thinking (just a bit) more...
> the env var is irrelevant since with above
> approach rio will never see it anyway  -
> rio will only see that a new window appears.
> Rio does know which window is currently active,
> and thus it might just decide to replace (overlay)
> the 'body' of that one, if it is an 9term
> (it can recognize those using X properties, I'm pretty sure)
>
> Something like plan9's window would then be useful
> to explicitly create new windows (9terms or directly apps)
> (dunno if it's already there)
> That should also take care of windows that are
> programmatically created on startup.

Re: p9p open apps in same window (Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?)

[Russ Cox]

> What does plan9 do when in a rio window I call "acme &"?

You don't.

> Does the acme still take over the window?

Yes.

> What happens to the shell?

It keeps trying to read from /dev/cons too, so it and acme
will take turns actually getting input.

Russ

Re: p9p open apps in same window (Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?)

[Paul Lalonde]

On 4-Dec-05, at 3:19 PM, Russ Cox wrote:
> It keeps trying to read from /dev/cons too, so it and acme
> will take turns actually getting input.

I assume this is messy and vaguely unpleasant.  I won't worry about  
simulating that behaviour :-)

Paul

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[David Leimbach]

On 12/2/05, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
> > * Virtual desktops... [rio sessions help but really don't quite get it for me].
>
> You should be able to use the interface that rio
> already provides to write a little program to do
> virtual desktops.  Winwatch shows almost everything
> you need to worry about.  To switch desktops just
> hide all the windows on the current desktop and
> unhide the ones on the new desktop.

I guess I need to read up on winwatch.

As usual Plan 9 already meets or exceeds expectations in an area where
I thought I was going to be able to spend some time contributing :)

Perhaps I can write a HOWTO virtual desktops after playing with this a
bit and submit it for the wiki page.

Dave
>
> Russ
>

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[rog]

> To switch desktops just
> hide all the windows on the current desktop and
> unhide the ones on the new desktop.

one problem with this approach, at least with the current rio:

there's no way, as far as i'm aware, of determining the current
z-order of rio windows, so hiding and then unhiding a set of windows
is likely to alter this.  this could perhaps be fixed by getting rio
to remember the z-order of hidden windows and readjusting when
unhiding. (it'd be nice if it maintained this order when windows
resized themselves too).

after a little inspection of rio code, i can't see an obvious way
of doing this (perhaps a call to topnwindows inside wctlmesg?).

before spending any more time, does the approach seem reasonable?

incidentally, i encountered a tiny little bug in rio on the way; try:

	for(i in /dev/wsys/*){echo bottom > $i/wctl}

rio gets confused about the z-order of the windows.
i think this is probably fixed by changing:

		w->topped = 0;

in wbottomme() to

		w->topped = - (++ topped);

although i haven't checked it.

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[David Leimbach]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 648 bytes --]

>
> I guess I need to read up on winwatch.



winwatch doesn't live on my system... Where can I get it?  I don't have the
luxury of running a plan 9 box full time so it just lives on a partition
that I boot when I'm feeling like playing around with it or when I can do
enough of my work in it as my primary desktop which is rare these days.


As usual Plan 9 already meets or exceeds expectations in an area where
> I thought I was going to be able to spend some time contributing :)
>
> Perhaps I can write a HOWTO virtual desktops after playing with this a
> bit and submit it for the wiki page.
>
> Dave
> >
> > Russ
> >
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 987 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Russ Cox]

> winwatch doesn't live on my system... Where can I get it?  I don't have the
> luxury of running a plan 9 box full time so it just lives on a partition
> that I boot when I'm feeling like playing around with it or when I can do
> enough of my work in it as my primary desktop which is rare these days.

/n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/winwatch.c

Russ

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[David Leimbach]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 459 bytes --]

On 12/9/05, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
>
> > winwatch doesn't live on my system... Where can I get it?  I don't have
> the
> > luxury of running a plan 9 box full time so it just lives on a partition
> > that I boot when I'm feeling like playing around with it or when I can
> do
> > enough of my work in it as my primary desktop which is rare these days.
>
> /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/winwatch.c
>
> Russ



Great, thanks again Russ!

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 778 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Uriel]

Last I spoke with nemo he said he was waiting for you to get back from
the US to put things in motion and that the dates would be discussed in
9fans(May 2006 was suggested).

See http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/thm_2005-09-25_Log/index.html
for details.

On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 12:16:12PM +0100, Gorka guardiola wrote:
> Uriel offered himself to organize it and I said I would help, but he
> hasnt done anything any further that I know of. It is easy for us to
> provide a place (classrooms/conference rooms) with internet access and
> good transport system with Madrid (though 40 min away).
> 
> I am waiting for Uriel to move things around more... 
Uhu? what I'm supposed to move around? 

All I did is suggest a 9con in Madrid similar to the the two previous
9cons in the Netherlands and UK. And from what I understood from
anavarro and nemo the univ could provide the location for free.  

So all that is really needed from that POV is a date that is convenient
for (almost) everyone that is interested in going, for that I checked
with you, nemo, Charles, and everyone that has been at recent THMs. 

You and nemo suggested to bring people and paid travel and so on, which
is great, but really I don't know what you expect me to do about it.

uriel

> I asked about being able to
> pay traveling expenses for some people who give conferences, but the
> (heavy) paperwork has to be done one year in advance, so I havent
> inquired further. If we had something organized with a year margin
> with some people (Forsyth, Russ, Sape, Rob, Presotto...?) coming and
> giving conferences, I'll do the paperwork to get money and maybe even
> try to get some places for people to stay, but someone
> else has to speak with everyone, agree on a date, etc.
> 
> On 11/21/05, Salva Peiró <saoret.one@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi 9fans,
> > I would like to know if there's some 9con planned for this year in Madrid?
> >
> > --
> > gualteri (at) rootshell.be/~gualteri
> >
> 
> 
> --
> - curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Gorka guardiola]

Uriel offered himself to organize it and I said I would help, but he
hasnt done anything any further that I know of. It is easy for us to
provide a place (classrooms/conference rooms) with internet access and
good transport system with Madrid (though 40 min away).

I am waiting for Uriel to move things around more... I asked about being able to
pay traveling expenses for some people who give conferences, but the
(heavy) paperwork has to be done one year in advance, so I havent
inquired further. If we had something organized with a year margin
with some people (Forsyth, Russ, Sape, Rob, Presotto...?) coming and
giving conferences, I'll do the paperwork to get money and maybe even
try to get some places for people to stay, but someone
else has to speak with everyone, agree on a date, etc.

On 11/21/05, Salva Peiró <saoret.one@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi 9fans,
> I would like to know if there's some 9con planned for this year in Madrid?
>
> --
> gualteri (at) rootshell.be/~gualteri
>


--
- curiosity sKilled the cat

[9fans] 9con in Madrid?

[Salva Peiró]

Hi 9fans,
I would like to know if there's some 9con planned for this year in Madrid?

--
gualteri (at) rootshell.be/~gualteri