Re: [9fans] Newbie question

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Lee Duhem]

yes, you can, if you want :-)
but Plan9's GUI is very nice.
try it first, and then decide

2006/12/5, Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at>:
>
> Hello!
>
> I am a C programmer and I've been using UNIX-like operating systems for some
> time now, but I'd really like to get into Plan 9.
>
> But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one.
> Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work style.
>
>
> Regards
>

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[John Stalker]

Yes.  It's certainly possible.  Try the gui, though.  It's much less
annoying than the typical gui.  It takes a bit of adjustment, but things
like sam and acme are very well thought out.  You can try the plan9ports
versions before you install.

> 
> Hello!
> 
> I am a C programmer and I've been using UNIX-like operating systems for some 
> time now, but I'd really like to get into Plan 9.
> 
> But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one
> .
> Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work
>  style.
> 
> 
> Regards
-- 
John Stalker
School of Mathematics
Trinity College Dublin
tel +353 1 896 1983
fax +353 1 896 2282

[9fans] Newbie question

[Markus Sonderegger]

Hello!

I am a C programmer and I've been using UNIX-like operating systems for some 
time now, but I'd really like to get into Plan 9.

But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one.
Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work style.


Regards

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Lucio De Re]

> But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one.
> Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work style.

Yes, but it's insufferable.  SAM and ACME are both works of art.  One
of them will eventually feel just perfect.  But you _do_ need a three
button mouse.

++L

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[erik quanstrom]

i don't think it's possible to work without rio,
as the console doesn't allow one to interrupt
a task.  so if you ever start something that
hangs up, you've got to reboot to get a prompt
back.

of course you could
a) modify the kernel to allow one to use DEL
at the console.
b) write something that suits your taste either
within rio or to replace it.

- erik

On Tue Dec  5 06:41:20 EST 2006, lee.duhem@gmail.com wrote:
> yes, you can, if you want :-)
> but Plan9's GUI is very nice.
> try it first, and then decide
> 
> 2006/12/5, Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at>:
> >
> > Hello!
> >
> > I am a C programmer and I've been using UNIX-like operating systems for some
> > time now, but I'd really like to get into Plan 9.
> >
> > But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one.
> > Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work style.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >

Re: Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Anthony Sorace]

On 12/5/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:

> of course you could
> a) modify the kernel to allow one to use DEL
> at the console.

not that i think it's a good idea, but couldn't one "just" either add
this to rc or insert an intermediate processor?

again, certainly not advocating it (if you think you want to use the
console, rio windows give you a decent approximation anyway), but that
at least sounds incrementally less wrong than sticking it in the
kernel.

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Gabriel Diaz]

Hello

you should take in account that plan9 is not unix, the papers are a
good read to know the reasons behind the plan9 way.

gabi


On 12/5/06, Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> I am a C programmer and I've been using UNIX-like operating systems for some
> time now, but I'd really like to get into Plan 9.
>
> But before I install Plan9 on my machine I've a questions. Maybe a stupid one.
> Is it posible to run Plan9 without the gui? I don't like this "mouseish" work style.
>
>
> Regards
>

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Markus Sonderegger]

Hello!

Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.

What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.

Sorry for my english.

Regards

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Rodolfo Garcia]

Hi Markus,

I don't like the mouse too, but in Plan9 is different. You can use it to 
copy, paste, drag and drop, execute code, find, ... only in one click. 
Try it, I had the same problem and I "love" now my mouse (you need a 
three buttons mouse!).

Tips:

In a window:

button 1, drag: select.
button 1, drag, and button 2 (middle): cut
button 1, drag, and button 3: paste
button 1, drag, button 2, and button 3: copy :-)
...

You can select/paste where you want. You can use it to change and 
erroneous command and re-exec it.

In acme is more powerful yet!

Try it ;-)

Markus Sonderegger wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
> you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
> my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.
>
> What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
> of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.
>
> Sorry for my english.
>
> Regards
>
>   

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[John Floren]

On 12/6/06, Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at> wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
> you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
> my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.
>
> What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
> of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.
>
> Sorry for my english.
>
> Regards
>

Markus, I'm no fan of the mouse either, as other mailing list members
could tell you, but like Rodolfo, I find Plan 9's mouse use better
than that of any other OS I've used.

The system *is* pretty slick, and when I'm doing some stuff, I'm
really glad it's the way it is. Of course, I still want keyboard
shortcuts (so does everybody else, they just don't know it yet), but
as I said, it's pretty good the way it is.

Like I've said before, if only I had one of those chording keyboard
things from Xerox's Alto, I could rock with the mouse in one hand and
the other hand on the keyboard.

Looking forward to flames

John
-- 
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Georg Lehner]

Hello!

I don't like the mouse very much either.  I use it for placing windows
and have learned just the basics for working with rio windows and
acme until now.

with "vt" you can put a rio terminal into "vt100" mode, and "ape/psh"
gives you a Korn Shell, however without emacs and vi editing modes.

Maybe you can get these modes back into psh and feel at home then.


Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at> writes:

> Hello!
>
> Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
> you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
> my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.
>
> What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
> of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.
...

The kernel has a minimal console.  It lacks an interrupt key for job
control.  rio uses the Del key for job control.  I think it is better
to let a userspace application do job control, and not to code
functionality for an interrupt key into the kernel.

If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
functionality.


    Jorge-León

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[andrey mirtchovski]

> If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> functionality.

if you want an application to take the whole screen permanently you
can start that program instead of rio. you won't be able to "manage"
it at all and it'll always take the entire screen, but if you want a
bare console so much you can have it ;)

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[LiteStar numnums]

Someone could also port Ratpoison =)

On 12/7/06, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> > sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> > programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> > window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> > functionality.
>
> if you want an application to take the whole screen permanently you
> can start that program instead of rio. you won't be able to "manage"
> it at all and it'll always take the entire screen, but if you want a
> bare console so much you can have it ;)
>


-- 
If work and leisure are soon to be subordinated to this one utopian
principle -- absolute busyness -- then utopia and melancholy will come
to coincide: an age without conflict will dawn, perpetually busy --
and without consciousness.

 -- Günter Grass

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Charles Forsyth]

> > If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> > sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> > programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> > window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> > functionality.

surely it should emulate a 3270?

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Steve Simon]

> surely it should emulate a 3270?

I did rescue a real adm3a from a skip at colledge, one 
with a graphics board too. I left it at a friends
house whilst I was out of the country one summer and
he put a goldfish bowl in it.

Looked pretty snazzy.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Brantley Coile]

>> > If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
>> > sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
>> > programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
>> > window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
>> > functionality.
> 
> surely it should emulate a 3270?

Only if it could make that funny clicking noise when
you're not allowed to push the send key. :)

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[ron minnich]

On 12/8/06, Brantley Coile <brantley@coraid.com> wrote:
> >> > If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> >> > sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> >> > programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> >> > window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> >> > functionality.
> >
> > surely it should emulate a 3270?
>
> Only if it could make that funny clicking noise when
> you're not allowed to push the send key. :)

If you really just want terminals, just fire up Acme and run a win in
each Acme window. No mouse needed for the most part, and you could
probably add keyboard nav if you want. I use acme this way on console
all the time -- it's nice.

ron

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[sretzki]

> Hello!
> 
> I don't like the mouse very much either.  I use it for placing windows
> and have learned just the basics for working with rio windows and
> acme until now.
> 
> with "vt" you can put a rio terminal into "vt100" mode, and "ape/psh"
> gives you a Korn Shell, however without emacs and vi editing modes.
> 
> Maybe you can get these modes back into psh and feel at home then.
> 

Or you just learn the idea behind it all. This 'oh my gawd I must touch a mouse!?!?!?'-drama constantly occuring in the so-called unix-community is at least funny, but can quickly become annoying.

> 
> Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at> writes:
> 
>> Hello!
>>
>> Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
>> you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
>> my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.
>>
>> What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
>> of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.
> ...
> 
> The kernel has a minimal console.  It lacks an interrupt key for job
> control.  rio uses the Del key for job control.  I think it is better
> to let a userspace application do job control, and not to code
> functionality for an interrupt key into the kernel.
> 
> If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> functionality.
> 
> 
>     Jorge-León

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Markus Sonderegger]

On 10:17 Sat 09 Dec     , sretzki@gmx.de wrote:
> > Hello!
> > 
> > I don't like the mouse very much either.  I use it for placing windows
> > and have learned just the basics for working with rio windows and
> > acme until now.
> > 
> > with "vt" you can put a rio terminal into "vt100" mode, and "ape/psh"
> > gives you a Korn Shell, however without emacs and vi editing modes.
> > 
> > Maybe you can get these modes back into psh and feel at home then.
> > 
> 
> Or you just learn the idea behind it all. This 'oh my gawd I must touch a mouse!?!?!?'-drama constantly occuring in the so-called unix-community is at least funny, but can quickly become annoying.
>


I've uesd rio some days now and it's absolut the best gui out there. 
Well thouht out und straight forward.
For me it's no drame to touch the mouse. My question was if it's
possible to use plan9 without rio, like other unixes.



> > 
> > Markus Sonderegger <msonderegger@aon.at> writes:
> > 
> >> Hello!
> >>
> >> Thank your for your answers. I've installed Plan9 and tryed rio and
> >> you're right it's much better than other guis. But it absolut not suits
> >> my workstyle. Normaly I doesen't use the mouse.
> >>
> >> What's the idea behind the desicion to have no console? I've read most
> >> of the documention papgers but can't figure it out.
> > ...
> > 
> > The kernel has a minimal console.  It lacks an interrupt key for job
> > control.  rio uses the Del key for job control.  I think it is better
> > to let a userspace application do job control, and not to code
> > functionality for an interrupt key into the kernel.
> > 
> > If I remember correctly, the vt220 terminals had a mode for switching
> > sessions, similar to the virtual consoles in Linux.  With some
> > programming effort it may be possible to open one single maximized
> > window at startup in rio, with a vt220 emulation and a similar
> > functionality.
> > 
> > 
> >     Jorge-Le??n
> 

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Gregory Pavelcak]

My $0.02.

When I began using Plan 9, rio, and acme, I forced myself to use it
because I had the sense that it was an elegant system and that, if I
ever came to understand it, especially per process namespaces, I could
do some really clever stuff.  In the early stages I would have said
that you use Plan 9 despite the user interface, not because of it.
Well, now I can't stand to use anything else.  I have a mac just for
the cases when I need a “full-featured” browser and drawterm to my
Plan 9 setup the rest of the time.

Perhaps giving it a few weeks is the way to go.

Greg

>> Hello!
>> 
>> I don't like the mouse very much either.  I use it for placing windows
>> and have learned just the basics for working with rio windows and
>> acme until now.
>> 
>> with "vt" you can put a rio terminal into "vt100" mode, and "ape/psh"
>> gives you a Korn Shell, however without emacs and vi editing modes.
>> 
>> Maybe you can get these modes back into psh and feel at home then.
>> 
> 
> Or you just learn the idea behind it all. This 'oh my gawd I must touch a mouse!?!?!?'-drama constantly occuring in the so-called unix-community is at least funny, but can quickly become annoying.

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Brantley Coile]

> My $0.02.

Great that the newbie that asked the original questin has now used
and seen the advantage of Rio and the plan 9 interface.

The comment about some so-called Unix community folks not wanting to
touch the mouse is certainly true, and I've been amazed at that.  To
show them that using the mouse is not anti-Unix, some history might be
in order.

Certainly the first use of the mouse on any system was Doug
Engelbart's use at SRI in 1970.  The mouse quickly scurried accross El
Camino Real to Xerox PARC and was used in the Alto in 1973.  The Unix
folks at Bell Labs got a mouse in 1982 with the development of the
Blit terminal developed by Rob Pike and Bart Locanthi.  That design
brought windows (or layers as they were called) and the mouse into a
Unix system cleanly.  The Blit turned into the DMD5620 and then the
630 and 730.  The Blit and its programs were key to the research that
led to plan 9's interfaces.  The gnot, a descendent of these
terminals, was designed in 1989 to run plan 9 on the desk.  It was the
original thin client.

The windowing systems at Bell Labs went from mpx to mux to 8½ to rio,
with several systems in between, all from the originators of Unix at
the place of origin of Unix.  So, it seems to me that Rio has a claim
to being a true Unix interface.  More so than xterm and vi.  I
sometimes like to use ed(1) for nostalgic reasons, but I get things
done faster in acme(1).  I don't think xterm and emacs are Unix at
all.

I never did understand why xterm clears the screen when I `q' out of
man.  Maybe so I can develop a photographic memory and remember what
was on the man page that I now have to type at the prompt.

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Tim Wiess]

> My question was if it's possible to use plan9 without rio, like other
> unixes.

plan9 isn't unix.

Re: [9fans] Newbie question

[Rodolfo Garcia]

Ufff, is very very interesing. Thanks for the "mouse history"

slds.

Brantley Coile wrote:
>> My $0.02.
>>     
>
> Great that the newbie that asked the original questin has now used
> and seen the advantage of Rio and the plan 9 interface.
>
> The comment about some so-called Unix community folks not wanting to
> touch the mouse is certainly true, and I've been amazed at that.  To
> show them that using the mouse is not anti-Unix, some history might be
> in order.
>
> Certainly the first use of the mouse on any system was Doug
> Engelbart's use at SRI in 1970.  The mouse quickly scurried accross El
> Camino Real to Xerox PARC and was used in the Alto in 1973.  The Unix
> folks at Bell Labs got a mouse in 1982 with the development of the
> Blit terminal developed by Rob Pike and Bart Locanthi.  That design
> brought windows (or layers as they were called) and the mouse into a
> Unix system cleanly.  The Blit turned into the DMD5620 and then the
> 630 and 730.  The Blit and its programs were key to the research that
> led to plan 9's interfaces.  The gnot, a descendent of these
> terminals, was designed in 1989 to run plan 9 on the desk.  It was the
> original thin client.
>
> The windowing systems at Bell Labs went from mpx to mux to 8½ to rio,
> with several systems in between, all from the originators of Unix at
> the place of origin of Unix.  So, it seems to me that Rio has a claim
> to being a true Unix interface.  More so than xterm and vi.  I
> sometimes like to use ed(1) for nostalgic reasons, but I get things
> done faster in acme(1).  I don't think xterm and emacs are Unix at
> all.
>
> I never did understand why xterm clears the screen when I `q' out of
> man.  Maybe so I can develop a photographic memory and remember what
> was on the man page that I now have to type at the prompt.
>
>
>