* [COFF] Popular Programming languages over time @ 2020-03-18 22:41 david 2020-03-19 2:34 ` lm 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: david @ 2020-03-18 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 158 bytes --] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI It’s kind of amazing how long Pascal hangs on to #1. And you can watch the ascent of web programming. David ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [COFF] Popular Programming languages over time 2020-03-18 22:41 [COFF] Popular Programming languages over time david @ 2020-03-19 2:34 ` lm 2020-03-19 15:04 ` clemc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: lm @ 2020-03-19 2:34 UTC (permalink / raw) I'd like to know where the data came from. Ada that big? Says who? On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 03:41:22PM -0700, David Barto wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI > > It???s kind of amazing how long Pascal hangs on to #1. > And you can watch the ascent of web programming. > > David > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [COFF] Popular Programming languages over time 2020-03-19 2:34 ` lm @ 2020-03-19 15:04 ` clemc 2020-03-19 15:31 ` pechter 2020-03-19 20:44 ` athornton 0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2020-03-19 15:04 UTC (permalink / raw) I saw that a while ago. I'd love to know more about the dataset behind it as Larry asked, FWIW: Pascal/Delphi being big did not surprise me as it was what was taught in the colleges in the 70s. Today they are teaching Python and Java so we see generations of new programmers going into the world with those skills (like my own daughter). Larry - I think the way to explain Ada, is that it was very big for a while when DoD, DoC and some of DoE when USG bids required it. But as fast as it rose, it fell pretty fast from favor. For me, I'm always amazed at things like Javascript and PHP, but their rise is directly mapped to people creating web sites. On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 10:34 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote: > I'd like to know where the data came from. Ada that big? Says who? > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 03:41:22PM -0700, David Barto wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI > > > > It???s kind of amazing how long Pascal hangs on to #1. > > And you can watch the ascent of web programming. > > > > David > > _______________________________________________ > > COFF mailing list > > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200319/f2e58d78/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [COFF] Popular Programming languages over time 2020-03-19 15:04 ` clemc @ 2020-03-19 15:31 ` pechter 2020-03-19 15:57 ` clemc 2020-03-19 16:01 ` jpl.jpl 2020-03-19 20:44 ` athornton 1 sibling, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: pechter @ 2020-03-19 15:31 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3655 bytes --] On 3/19/20 11:04 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > I saw that a while ago. I'd love to know more about the dataset > behind it as Larry asked, > > FWIW: Pascal/Delphi being big did not surprise me as it was what was > taught in the colleges in the 70s. Today they are teaching Python > and Java so we see generations of new programmers going into the world > with those skills (like my own daughter). > > Larry - I think the way to explain Ada, is that it was very big for a > while when DoD, DoC and some of DoE when USG bids required it. But as > fast as it rose, it fell pretty fast from favor. > Actually, since the DOD's Ada Language System was being tested on the dual 11/780 Vaxes I supported at Fort Monmouth in New Jersey -- the language was just part of what was in the works. This was back in the 1983 timeframe. Wikipedia shows that the DOD had a contract from 1977 to 1983 to come up with the OS which was supposedly targeted at embedded and real-time systems. At the time there were tons of different small C-compilers used on different parts of the same project -- with the ton of licenses required for each chip and RTOS supported. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)#Standardization Softech's Ada Language system had its hooks so far into VAX/VMS 3.x that shutting down the VAX/VMS system would crash the machine with a bugcheck. I think somewhere there was a thought of a single Ada environment and programming tools across the various operating systems. I think the government wanted to standardize the military deveopment process... which at the time used a jumble of languages, embedded systems and RTOS's from various vendors with convoluted make files tied to the development environments for each part of a military intelligence/weapons system. A bit of a bitch to maintain -- any change to one part could keep the rest from building. After Softech... NYU (IIRC) developed what is now known as GNAT -- the Gnu NYU Ada After my DEC job I did a couple of years as a system admin along with my wife. We were building a new piece of software and she had the target system. Fun when the embedded C compiler 100 lines in the build script suddenly goes out of license complience and stops building for no real reason... And the sysadmin has no docs as to how this builds. At the same time the government canceled a project to build a standard military computer family (chip) which I think was the original idea and end target for all of this. RCA, GE and others were trying to develop this but the release of the MicroVax2 kind of took the wind out of the sails -- and the Patriot missile (IIRC) used a Raytheon built box using the uVax chip set. (Don't know if this is the board used then but it's of a similar timeframe)... https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102757133 It was the Reagan admin and it was very different times in software with more contractors working in different locations on pieces of projects and the integration was difficult. Bill > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com <http://mcvoy.com> > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:COFF at minnie.tuhs.org> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff -- Digital had it then. Don't you wish you could buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com http://xkcd.com/705/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [COFF] Popular Programming languages over time 2020-03-19 15:31 ` pechter @ 2020-03-19 15:57 ` clemc 2020-03-19 16:01 ` jpl.jpl 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2020-03-19 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 11:31 AM William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com> wrote: > > At the time there were tons of different small C-compilers used on > different parts of the same project -- with the ton of licenses required > for each chip and RTOS supported. > Yep, in fact, I think that is really what killed Ada use. Because of the need for embedded support and most of the small processors did not have good Ada support, but did have C and assembler, a lot of USG contracts applied and got variances. But the start of the 90s, it was pretty clear, the idea behind Ada and a standard language for the USG was a lesson of theory vs. practical reality. Ada had a huge spike on the Mainframes and Minis because when it envisioned (in the mid-70s) that was the target processor. I used to be friends with the then chief SW guy at Raytheon who lead the Patriot missile SW development during those years (we lost him a few year ago due to massive heart attack). But he made me understand why Ada was created. At the time, Raytheon was doing support for the Polaris submarine missiles. They did not have the full source. It was all patches. DoD wanted a programming language that they could use for both specification and deployment. They wanted the specs to be able to last. And an interesting idea. But as you point out, as time went one, more and more of the code went from being in large systems into embedded micros and they were back to the same problem. The lacked tools to take Ada to deployment. So they specs might have been written in Ada 'pseudo-code', it was all done in C and Assembler. Clem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200319/ddc2b29e/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [COFF] Popular Programming languages over time 2020-03-19 15:31 ` pechter 2020-03-19 15:57 ` clemc @ 2020-03-19 16:01 ` jpl.jpl 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: jpl.jpl @ 2020-03-19 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw) I proofread an Ada book by Narain Gehani, <https://www.amazon.com/ADA-Advanced-Introduction-Prentice-Hall-software/dp/0130039977> a colleague at the Labs. He had a nuclear reactor example with a sign error in the cooling control, so if it started to overheat, it would overheat faster. I *begged* him to leave the example untouched, as an example of why just because something compiled didn't mean it was correct. He just corrected the error, in my opinion, missing a valuable teaching moment. On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 11:31 AM William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com> wrote: > > On 3/19/20 11:04 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > > I saw that a while ago. I'd love to know more about the dataset > > behind it as Larry asked, > > > > FWIW: Pascal/Delphi being big did not surprise me as it was what was > > taught in the colleges in the 70s. Today they are teaching Python > > and Java so we see generations of new programmers going into the world > > with those skills (like my own daughter). > > > > Larry - I think the way to explain Ada, is that it was very big for a > > while when DoD, DoC and some of DoE when USG bids required it. But as > > fast as it rose, it fell pretty fast from favor. > > > Actually, since the DOD's Ada Language System was being tested on the > dual 11/780 Vaxes I supported at Fort Monmouth in New Jersey -- the > language was just part of what was in the works. > > This was back in the 1983 timeframe. Wikipedia shows that the DOD had a > contract from 1977 to 1983 to come up with the OS which was supposedly > targeted at embedded and real-time systems. > > At the time there were tons of different small C-compilers used on > different parts of the same project -- with the ton of licenses required > for each chip and RTOS supported. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)#Standardization > > Softech's Ada Language system had its hooks so far into VAX/VMS 3.x that > shutting down the VAX/VMS system would crash the machine with a > bugcheck. I think somewhere there was a thought of a single Ada > environment and programming tools across the various operating systems. > > I think the government wanted to standardize the military deveopment > process... which at the time used a jumble of languages, embedded > systems and RTOS's from various vendors with convoluted make files tied > to the development environments for each part of a military > intelligence/weapons system. A bit of a bitch to maintain -- any change > to one part could keep the rest from building. > > After Softech... NYU (IIRC) developed what is now known as GNAT -- the > Gnu NYU Ada > > After my DEC job I did a couple of years as a system admin along with my > wife. We were building a new piece of software and she had the target > system. Fun when the embedded C compiler 100 lines in the build script > suddenly goes out of license complience and stops building for no real > reason... And the sysadmin has no docs as to how this builds. > > At the same time the government canceled a project to build a standard > military computer family (chip) which I think was the original idea and > end target for all of this. RCA, GE and others were trying to develop > this but the release of the MicroVax2 kind of took the wind out of the > sails -- and the Patriot missile (IIRC) used a Raytheon built box using > the uVax chip set. > > (Don't know if this is the board used then but it's of a similar > timeframe)... > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102757133 > > It was the Reagan admin and it was very different times in software with > more contractors working in different locations on pieces of projects > and the integration was difficult. > > Bill > > > > --- > > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com <http://mcvoy.com> > > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > > _______________________________________________ > > COFF mailing list > > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:COFF at minnie.tuhs.org> > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > COFF mailing list > > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > -- > Digital had it then. Don't you wish you could buy it now! > pechter-at-gmail.com http://xkcd.com/705/ > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200319/14d77137/attachment-0001.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [COFF] Popular Programming languages over time 2020-03-19 15:04 ` clemc 2020-03-19 15:31 ` pechter @ 2020-03-19 20:44 ` athornton 2020-03-20 0:29 ` wobblygong 1 sibling, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: athornton @ 2020-03-19 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw) PHP was the BASIC of the late 90s and early 2000s; Javascript was (and is) the BASIC of the subsequent generation. I mean that, of course, in both good and bad ways, and as someone whose initial experience was BASIC in the ROMs of Apple IIs and C64s. Bad in that neither one is a well-(or even particularly-intentionally) designed language. Good in that it's easy to get the results you want with some iteration and very little theory or formal training; a novice can bootstrap/cargo-cult something into being pretty easily. Adam On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 8:04 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote: > I saw that a while ago. I'd love to know more about the dataset behind it > as Larry asked, > > FWIW: Pascal/Delphi being big did not surprise me as it was what was > taught in the colleges in the 70s. Today they are teaching Python and > Java so we see generations of new programmers going into the world with > those skills (like my own daughter). > > Larry - I think the way to explain Ada, is that it was very big for a > while when DoD, DoC and some of DoE when USG bids required it. But as fast > as it rose, it fell pretty fast from favor. > > For me, I'm always amazed at things like Javascript and PHP, but their > rise is directly mapped to people creating web sites. > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 10:34 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote: > >> I'd like to know where the data came from. Ada that big? Says who? >> >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 03:41:22PM -0700, David Barto wrote: >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI >> > >> > It???s kind of amazing how long Pascal hangs on to #1. >> > And you can watch the ascent of web programming. >> > >> > David >> > _______________________________________________ >> > COFF mailing list >> > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org >> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff >> >> -- >> --- >> Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com >> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm >> _______________________________________________ >> COFF mailing list >> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org >> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff >> > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200319/3e38628b/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [COFF] Popular Programming languages over time 2020-03-19 20:44 ` athornton @ 2020-03-20 0:29 ` wobblygong 0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: wobblygong @ 2020-03-20 0:29 UTC (permalink / raw) FWVLIW, I'm fooling around trying to learn PHP at this moment. Yes, web development is pretty big, and it is driving the usage of those languages. What gets me with PHP - and Javascript, which I'm going to have to learn if I want to really enter this web development career - is the lack of type-checking. A nephew, who is currently employed in Kubernetes and web development, uses Microsoft's Typescript in preference (Typescript may be one of Microsoft's redeeming developments - it's more typesafe than Javascript, though how much I don't know! :) Wesley Parish On 3/20/20, Adam Thornton <athornton at gmail.com> wrote: > PHP was the BASIC of the late 90s and early 2000s; Javascript was (and is) > the BASIC of the subsequent generation. > > I mean that, of course, in both good and bad ways, and as someone whose > initial experience was BASIC in the ROMs of Apple IIs and C64s. Bad in > that neither one is a well-(or even particularly-intentionally) designed > language. Good in that it's easy to get the results you want with some > iteration and very little theory or formal training; a novice can > bootstrap/cargo-cult something into being pretty easily. > > Adam > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 8:04 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote: > >> I saw that a while ago. I'd love to know more about the dataset behind >> it >> as Larry asked, >> >> FWIW: Pascal/Delphi being big did not surprise me as it was what was >> taught in the colleges in the 70s. Today they are teaching Python and >> Java so we see generations of new programmers going into the world with >> those skills (like my own daughter). >> >> Larry - I think the way to explain Ada, is that it was very big for a >> while when DoD, DoC and some of DoE when USG bids required it. But as >> fast >> as it rose, it fell pretty fast from favor. >> >> For me, I'm always amazed at things like Javascript and PHP, but their >> rise is directly mapped to people creating web sites. >> >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 10:34 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote: >> >>> I'd like to know where the data came from. Ada that big? Says who? >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 03:41:22PM -0700, David Barto wrote: >>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI >>> > >>> > It???s kind of amazing how long Pascal hangs on to #1. >>> > And you can watch the ascent of web programming. >>> > >>> > David >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > COFF mailing list >>> > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org >>> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff >>> >>> -- >>> --- >>> Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com >>> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm >>> _______________________________________________ >>> COFF mailing list >>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org >>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> COFF mailing list >> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org >> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff >> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-03-20 0:29 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2020-03-18 22:41 [COFF] Popular Programming languages over time david 2020-03-19 2:34 ` lm 2020-03-19 15:04 ` clemc 2020-03-19 15:31 ` pechter 2020-03-19 15:57 ` clemc 2020-03-19 16:01 ` jpl.jpl 2020-03-19 20:44 ` athornton 2020-03-20 0:29 ` wobblygong
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