[COFF] Popular Programming languages over time

[COFF] Popular Programming languages over time

[david]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 158 bytes --]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI

It’s kind of amazing how long Pascal hangs on to #1.
And you can watch the ascent of web programming.

	David

[COFF] Popular Programming languages over time

[lm]

I'd like to know where the data came from.  Ada that big?  Says who?

On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 03:41:22PM -0700, David Barto wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI
> 
> It???s kind of amazing how long Pascal hangs on to #1.
> And you can watch the ascent of web programming.
> 
> 	David
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[COFF] Popular Programming languages over time

[clemc]

I saw that a while ago.  I'd love to know more about the dataset behind it
as Larry asked,

FWIW: Pascal/Delphi being big did not surprise me as it was what was taught
in the colleges in the 70s.   Today they are teaching Python and Java so we
see generations of new programmers going into the world with those skills
(like my own daughter).

Larry - I think the way to explain Ada, is that it was very big for a while
when DoD, DoC and some of DoE when USG bids required it.  But as fast as it
rose, it fell pretty fast from favor.

For me, I'm always amazed at things like Javascript and PHP, but their rise
is directly mapped to people creating web sites.

On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 10:34 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> I'd like to know where the data came from.  Ada that big?  Says who?
>
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 03:41:22PM -0700, David Barto wrote:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI
> >
> > It???s kind of amazing how long Pascal hangs on to #1.
> > And you can watch the ascent of web programming.
> >
> >       David
> > _______________________________________________
> > COFF mailing list
> > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200319/f2e58d78/attachment.html>

[COFF] Popular Programming languages over time

[pechter]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3655 bytes --]


On 3/19/20 11:04 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> I saw that a while ago.  I'd love to know more about the dataset 
> behind it as Larry asked,
>
> FWIW: Pascal/Delphi being big did not surprise me as it was what was 
> taught in the colleges in the 70s.   Today they are teaching Python 
> and Java so we see generations of new programmers going into the world 
> with those skills (like my own daughter).
>
> Larry - I think the way to explain Ada, is that it was very big for a 
> while when DoD, DoC and some of DoE when USG bids required it.  But as 
> fast as it rose, it fell pretty fast from favor.
>
Actually, since the DOD's Ada Language System was being tested on the 
dual 11/780  Vaxes I supported at Fort Monmouth in New Jersey -- the 
language was just part of what was in the works.

This was back in the 1983 timeframe.  Wikipedia shows that the DOD had a 
contract from 1977 to 1983 to come up with the OS which was supposedly 
targeted at embedded and real-time systems.

At the time there were tons of different small C-compilers used on 
different parts of the same project -- with the ton of licenses required 
for each chip and RTOS supported.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)#Standardization

Softech's Ada Language system had its hooks so far into VAX/VMS 3.x that 
shutting down the VAX/VMS system would crash the machine with a 
bugcheck.  I think somewhere there was a thought of a single Ada 
environment and programming tools across the various operating systems.

I think the government wanted to standardize the military deveopment 
process... which at the time used a jumble of languages, embedded 
systems and RTOS's from various vendors with convoluted make files tied 
to the development environments for each part of a military 
intelligence/weapons system.  A bit of a bitch to maintain -- any change 
to one part could keep the rest from building.

After Softech... NYU (IIRC) developed what is now known as GNAT -- the 
Gnu NYU Ada

After my DEC job I did a couple of years as a system admin along with my 
wife.  We were building a new piece of software and she had the target 
system.  Fun when the embedded C compiler 100 lines in the build script 
suddenly goes out of license complience and stops building for no real 
reason... And the sysadmin has no docs as to how this builds.

At the same time the government canceled a project to build a standard 
military computer family (chip)  which I think was the original idea and 
end target for all of this.  RCA, GE and others were trying to develop 
this but the release of the MicroVax2 kind of took the wind out of the 
sails -- and the Patriot missile (IIRC) used a Raytheon built box using 
the uVax chip set.

(Don't know if this is the board used then but it's of a similar 
timeframe)...

https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102757133

It was the Reagan admin and it was very different times in software with 
more contractors working in different locations on pieces of projects 
and the integration was difficult.

Bill


>     ---
>     Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com <http://mcvoy.com>
>     http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>     _______________________________________________
>     COFF mailing list
>     COFF at minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:COFF at minnie.tuhs.org>
>     https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff

-- 
Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/

[COFF] Popular Programming languages over time

[clemc]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 11:31 AM William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> At the time there were tons of different small C-compilers used on
> different parts of the same project -- with the ton of licenses required
> for each chip and RTOS supported.
>

Yep, in fact, I think that is really what killed Ada use.   Because of the
need for embedded support and most of the small processors did not have
good Ada support, but did have C and assembler, a lot of USG contracts
applied and got variances.    But the start of the 90s, it was pretty
clear, the idea behind Ada and a standard language for the USG was a lesson
of theory vs. practical reality.

Ada had a huge spike on the Mainframes and Minis because when it envisioned
(in the mid-70s) that was the target processor.

I used to be friends with the then chief SW guy at Raytheon who lead the
Patriot missile SW development during those years (we lost him a few
year ago due to massive heart attack).  But he made me understand why Ada
was created.  At the time, Raytheon was doing support for the Polaris
submarine missiles.   They did not have the full source.  It was all
patches.  DoD wanted a programming language that they could use for both
specification and deployment.   They wanted the specs to be able to last.
 And an interesting idea.

But as you point out, as time went one, more and more of the code went from
being in large systems into embedded micros and they were back to the same
problem.  The lacked tools to take Ada to deployment.  So they specs might
have been written in Ada 'pseudo-code', it was all done in C and Assembler.

Clem
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200319/ddc2b29e/attachment.html>

[COFF] Popular Programming languages over time

[jpl.jpl]

I proofread an Ada book by Narain Gehani,
<https://www.amazon.com/ADA-Advanced-Introduction-Prentice-Hall-software/dp/0130039977>
a
colleague at the Labs. He had a nuclear reactor example with a sign error
in the cooling control, so if it started to overheat, it would overheat
faster. I *begged* him to leave the example untouched, as an example of why
just because something compiled didn't mean it was correct. He just
corrected the error, in my opinion, missing a valuable teaching moment.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 11:31 AM William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 3/19/20 11:04 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> > I saw that a while ago.  I'd love to know more about the dataset
> > behind it as Larry asked,
> >
> > FWIW: Pascal/Delphi being big did not surprise me as it was what was
> > taught in the colleges in the 70s.   Today they are teaching Python
> > and Java so we see generations of new programmers going into the world
> > with those skills (like my own daughter).
> >
> > Larry - I think the way to explain Ada, is that it was very big for a
> > while when DoD, DoC and some of DoE when USG bids required it.  But as
> > fast as it rose, it fell pretty fast from favor.
> >
> Actually, since the DOD's Ada Language System was being tested on the
> dual 11/780  Vaxes I supported at Fort Monmouth in New Jersey -- the
> language was just part of what was in the works.
>
> This was back in the 1983 timeframe.  Wikipedia shows that the DOD had a
> contract from 1977 to 1983 to come up with the OS which was supposedly
> targeted at embedded and real-time systems.
>
> At the time there were tons of different small C-compilers used on
> different parts of the same project -- with the ton of licenses required
> for each chip and RTOS supported.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)#Standardization
>
> Softech's Ada Language system had its hooks so far into VAX/VMS 3.x that
> shutting down the VAX/VMS system would crash the machine with a
> bugcheck.  I think somewhere there was a thought of a single Ada
> environment and programming tools across the various operating systems.
>
> I think the government wanted to standardize the military deveopment
> process... which at the time used a jumble of languages, embedded
> systems and RTOS's from various vendors with convoluted make files tied
> to the development environments for each part of a military
> intelligence/weapons system.  A bit of a bitch to maintain -- any change
> to one part could keep the rest from building.
>
> After Softech... NYU (IIRC) developed what is now known as GNAT -- the
> Gnu NYU Ada
>
> After my DEC job I did a couple of years as a system admin along with my
> wife.  We were building a new piece of software and she had the target
> system.  Fun when the embedded C compiler 100 lines in the build script
> suddenly goes out of license complience and stops building for no real
> reason... And the sysadmin has no docs as to how this builds.
>
> At the same time the government canceled a project to build a standard
> military computer family (chip)  which I think was the original idea and
> end target for all of this.  RCA, GE and others were trying to develop
> this but the release of the MicroVax2 kind of took the wind out of the
> sails -- and the Patriot missile (IIRC) used a Raytheon built box using
> the uVax chip set.
>
> (Don't know if this is the board used then but it's of a similar
> timeframe)...
>
> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102757133
>
> It was the Reagan admin and it was very different times in software with
> more contractors working in different locations on pieces of projects
> and the integration was difficult.
>
> Bill
>
>
> >     ---
> >     Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com <http://mcvoy.com>
> >     http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     COFF mailing list
> >     COFF at minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:COFF at minnie.tuhs.org>
> >     https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > COFF mailing list
> > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
> --
> Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
> pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/
>
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200319/14d77137/attachment-0001.html>

[COFF] Popular Programming languages over time

[athornton]

PHP was the BASIC of the late 90s and early 2000s; Javascript was (and is)
the BASIC of the subsequent generation.

I mean that, of course, in both good and bad ways, and as someone whose
initial experience was BASIC in the ROMs of Apple IIs and C64s.  Bad in
that neither one is a well-(or even particularly-intentionally) designed
language.  Good in that it's easy to get the results you want with some
iteration and very little theory or formal training; a novice can
bootstrap/cargo-cult something into being pretty easily.

Adam

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 8:04 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> I saw that a while ago.  I'd love to know more about the dataset behind it
> as Larry asked,
>
> FWIW: Pascal/Delphi being big did not surprise me as it was what was
> taught in the colleges in the 70s.   Today they are teaching Python and
> Java so we see generations of new programmers going into the world with
> those skills (like my own daughter).
>
> Larry - I think the way to explain Ada, is that it was very big for a
> while when DoD, DoC and some of DoE when USG bids required it.  But as fast
> as it rose, it fell pretty fast from favor.
>
> For me, I'm always amazed at things like Javascript and PHP, but their
> rise is directly mapped to people creating web sites.
>
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 10:34 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd like to know where the data came from.  Ada that big?  Says who?
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 03:41:22PM -0700, David Barto wrote:
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI
>> >
>> > It???s kind of amazing how long Pascal hangs on to #1.
>> > And you can watch the ascent of web programming.
>> >
>> >       David
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > COFF mailing list
>> > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
>> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>> _______________________________________________
>> COFF mailing list
>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200319/3e38628b/attachment.html>

[COFF] Popular Programming languages over time

[wobblygong]

FWVLIW, I'm fooling around trying to learn PHP at this moment. Yes,
web development is pretty big, and it is driving the usage of those
languages.

What gets me with PHP - and Javascript, which I'm going to have to
learn if I want to really enter this web development career - is the
lack of type-checking. A nephew, who is currently employed in
Kubernetes and web development, uses Microsoft's Typescript in
preference (Typescript may be one of Microsoft's redeeming
developments - it's more typesafe than Javascript, though how much I
don't know! :)

Wesley Parish

On 3/20/20, Adam Thornton <athornton at gmail.com> wrote:
> PHP was the BASIC of the late 90s and early 2000s; Javascript was (and is)
> the BASIC of the subsequent generation.
>
> I mean that, of course, in both good and bad ways, and as someone whose
> initial experience was BASIC in the ROMs of Apple IIs and C64s.  Bad in
> that neither one is a well-(or even particularly-intentionally) designed
> language.  Good in that it's easy to get the results you want with some
> iteration and very little theory or formal training; a novice can
> bootstrap/cargo-cult something into being pretty easily.
>
> Adam
>
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 8:04 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> I saw that a while ago.  I'd love to know more about the dataset behind
>> it
>> as Larry asked,
>>
>> FWIW: Pascal/Delphi being big did not surprise me as it was what was
>> taught in the colleges in the 70s.   Today they are teaching Python and
>> Java so we see generations of new programmers going into the world with
>> those skills (like my own daughter).
>>
>> Larry - I think the way to explain Ada, is that it was very big for a
>> while when DoD, DoC and some of DoE when USG bids required it.  But as
>> fast
>> as it rose, it fell pretty fast from favor.
>>
>> For me, I'm always amazed at things like Javascript and PHP, but their
>> rise is directly mapped to people creating web sites.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 10:34 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to know where the data came from.  Ada that big?  Says who?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 03:41:22PM -0700, David Barto wrote:
>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og847HVwRSI
>>> >
>>> > It???s kind of amazing how long Pascal hangs on to #1.
>>> > And you can watch the ascent of web programming.
>>> >
>>> >       David
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > COFF mailing list
>>> > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>>
>>> --
>>> ---
>>> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
>>> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> COFF mailing list
>>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> COFF mailing list
>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>
>