road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

The problem with an organically grown mail system is that you spend a
lot of time making mulch for fertilizer. :-)

Incoming mail for stonehenge.com comes first through a postfix regex
match to handle immmediately breakoutable addresses (like
rootbeer@stonehenge.com), and then everything else falls into
merlyn@stonehenge.com, which delivers to a procmail delivery rule,
which launches a Perl script.

The Perl script is at least less than a year old, having sacrificed
the much older MailAgent junk that I was using prior to that (mostly
when I couldn't get MailAgent to run under a modern Perl, as it had
been written for Perl4).  I use Mail::Audit and Mail::Internet and
Mail::ListDetector and (important) Mail::SpamAssassin to figure out
who/where/why on each piece.  Once the analysis is complete, I drop
the mail into ~/.incoming/$something.spool, so that GNUS can pick it
up in "sorted by procmail" mode.  From there, GNUS picks it up, and
drops it into the initial nnml folders, and I read my 1100 incoming
(half spam, so my incoming spam folders get very little scrutiny).

Amazingly enough, this stuff mostly works.  Provided that I *only*
want to read and answer email online.  And that was fine, when my
Mac laptop couldn't run /bin/sh, or more importantly, GNU Emacs.

But now, I've found myself from time to time wanting to read and write
email without an active net connection.  I started by thinking I could
ssh-grab-and-delete the .incoming directory in some atomic way so that
I wouldn't step on the process, and the "master" directory of nnml
folders would be on my laptop.

But then, the hitch.  Occasionally, I'm in an internet cafe with ssh,
and not my laptop (or any means by which to attach my laptop).  Right
now, that's no problem, because ssh'ing from a random computer is no
different from ssh'ing from my laptop (as I am doing right now) and
typing "screen -DR emacs" to revive my emacs session.  (I "boot" emacs
about once a month. :-) But if the nnml folders are on my laptop, I'm
hosed, since I'll have no access to context or unanswered mail.

Help.

I understand there's an offline reader mode, but I'm not sure how that
would work for my setup.  Would I need to set up an IMAP server, and
could that let me access unanswered email both on and off the box?

I can't be the only one who wants to read and answer email both while
online and offline.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Vasily Korytov]

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>>>>> "RLS" == Randal L Schwartz writes:

 RLS> I understand there's an offline reader mode, but I'm not sure how that
 RLS> would work for my setup.  Would I need to set up an IMAP server, and
 RLS> could that let me access unanswered email both on and off the box?

If I got it correctly, you want to read your inbox from two computers,
one of which may be offline. If so, I think, you have to use an IMAP
server, on the offline host there should be ``agentized'' Gnus. But I'm
not sure in two things (anyone else?):

1. Does agent work enough well in stable Gnus.

2. Will two gnusae, both on IMAP, sync the mailbox attributes well.

---Vas

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Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "VK" == Vasily Korytov <deskpot@myrealbox.com> writes:

VK> If I got it correctly, you want to read your inbox from two computers,
VK> one of which may be offline. If so, I think, you have to use an IMAP
VK> server, on the offline host there should be ``agentized'' Gnus. But I'm
VK> not sure in two things (anyone else?):

VK> 1. Does agent work enough well in stable Gnus.

VK> 2. Will two gnusae, both on IMAP, sync the mailbox attributes well.

Yes, this is starting to sound right.  I'd also still need the Perl
step, so I'd need to feed the IMAP server with new articles.  I think
I can work out the Perl details on that... there are certainly modules
galore.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[James Leifer]

[long reply...]

Greetings!

I face a similar problem of synchronising my mail on two machines that
are often offline.

I have been considering using nnmaildir to manage all mail (one
message per file).  If I understand Paul Jarc's description correctly,
this has the advantage of storing each message's mark in a separate
file (not together in a big .newsrc).  If so, then I could use unison
(which already synchronises bidirectionally my 600 MB home directory
in seconds) for the mails and marks.  Anyone tried this?

Unison is at: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/ .

Another interesting tool I noticed (but haven't had time to play with)
is offlineimap: http://gopher.quux.org:70/devel/offlineimap/

As far as I understand it, an ideal scenario looks like this:

 (1) Imagine two machines, A and B, that can connect to each other
     from time to time, each of which has a complete replica of my
     mail.

 (2) I make changes on machine A involving both the physical messages
     (moves between groups, creation of new gcc'd messages, deletes,
     etc.) and the marks (read, replied, etc.), with gnus keeping a
     log of what has changed.

 (3) Likewise, I make changes on machine B.

 (4) I connect A and B and some tool merges the two change logs and
     then (bidirectionally) copies and deletes files so that the
     replicas are again identical.  The merging might have to deal
     with conflicts that I need to resolve manually (e.g. on one
     replica I have deleted a message, on the other I have moved it to
     another group).

What would it involve to implement?

  (2) requires gnus to keep logs of message and mark changes. Can the
  agent do this?  (It might need to record things like "message with
  message-id x and hash y and file name z has moved from group c to
  group d".)

  (4) requires a tool to parse the log files and ask about conflicts.
  The actual copying could then be handled by unison.

Anyone tried this?

Regards,

--
James Leifer, INRIA Rocquencourt, France

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Kai Großjohann]

merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:

> I understand there's an offline reader mode, but I'm not sure how that
> would work for my setup.  Would I need to set up an IMAP server, and
> could that let me access unanswered email both on and off the box?

I use CVS Gnus, but I have your situation mostly.  It works well to
use Gnus as an IMAP client in disconnected mode (that's IMAP-talk for
offline).  The only problem is that you can't move messages from one
group to another while offline.

I haven't tested whether it works to access your IMAP server from two
hosts at the same time, but I'm pretty sure it will work.  There are
also web-based IMAP interfaces, so a random computer in an internet
cafe with some kind of browser will be good enough.

I think it's better to use Oort Gnus for this, though.
-- 
A turnip curses Elvis

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Kirk Strauser]

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At 2003-02-05T21:49:20Z, merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:

> I think I can work out the Perl details on that...

Please let us know if you can't so that the rest of us could give it up as
futile.  :)
-- 
Kirk Strauser
In Googlis non est, ergo non est.

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Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)  on Wed, 05 Feb 2003
| I can't be the only one who wants to read and answer email both while
| online and offline.

I cheat:

I have no inbound MTA on my notebook.  I use fetchmail to download my mail
spools over an SSH tunnel and dump them into my spool on my notebook.  If
you have a mechanism that works better for you then by all means use it.

I use Postfix for my outbound MTA.

When I am connected to a network, everything just works.

When I am not connected to a network, Postfix queues up my outgoing mail
and waits patiently (more or less :) for a network connection, and then
everything just works.

-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
       That and five bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks.

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:

Rat> I cheat:

Rat> I have no inbound MTA on my notebook.  I use fetchmail to download my mail
Rat> spools over an SSH tunnel and dump them into my spool on my notebook.  If
Rat> you have a mechanism that works better for you then by all means use it.

Rat> I use Postfix for my outbound MTA.

Rat> When I am connected to a network, everything just works.

Rat> When I am not connected to a network, Postfix queues up my outgoing mail
Rat> and waits patiently (more or less :) for a network connection, and then
Rat> everything just works.

Won't work.  I can't read and answer my mail *without* my laptop then.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)  on Thu, 06 Feb 2003
| Won't work.  I can't read and answer my mail *without* my laptop then.

You can leave it at home (or wherever) and ssh into it from wherever else
you have a network connection.

-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ 
       That and five bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks.

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:

Rat> * merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)  on Thu, 06 Feb 2003
Rat> | Won't work.  I can't read and answer my mail *without* my laptop then.

Rat> You can leave it at home (or wherever) and ssh into it from wherever else
Rat> you have a network connection.

No, please read my original description again.  Perhaps you lost sight
of my goals.

I'm a road warrior.  My laptop goes with me.  But sometimes, I'm in an
internet cafe that won't let me plug in my laptop (more often than
not, in fact).  So I want to read my email directly on my server.

Your setup won't work.  Thanks for the suggestions but it's not
applicable at all.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Michel Schinz]

merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:

[...]

> I understand there's an offline reader mode, but I'm not sure how
> that would work for my setup. Would I need to set up an IMAP server,
> and could that let me access unanswered email both on and off the
> box?

I have a pretty similar setup as yours (Mac laptop, not always
connected, Linux box at work, always connected, and occasional need to
read my mail from an Internet cafe).

I have been using IMAP to handle all that for almost two years now and
I've been pretty happy with my setup. Let me describe it quickly.

On my Linux box, which is always online, I use Gnus to read my mail,
in "online" mode. That is, I never tested Gnus in offline mode (with
agent) and cannot say whether it works well or not. It does, however,
play nicely with other IMAP clients which also access the mailboxes.

On my Mac laptop, I use Apple's Mail.app, which works great in offline
mode. I can do whatever I want with my mails (move them around, reply
to them, delete them) and as soon as I reconnect to the net, the local
modifications are propagated to the server.

When I'm in an Internet cafe, I access my mailboxes through Horde's
IMP client (http://www.horde.org/imp/), which is a pretty nice Web
interface to IMAP servers.

These three clients all interacted pretty well until now, at least I
didn't have any major problems in the previous two years. There are,
however, some minor glitches.

The major one is mail splitting. Gnus, Mail.app and IMP all have ways
to sort mail, but of course they are not compatible. Which means that
you either have to install an IMAP server with server-side splitting,
or have to find another way. I didn't experiment with server-side
splitting, but I fear that the solutions available now (i.e. SIEVE)
are not powerful enough to filter SPAM using external tools
(SpamAssassin or whatever).

I've been thinking about a solution to this problem for some time now,
but did not implement it yet. The idea would be to have an IMAP
splitting client running all the time on my Linux box. The client
would periodically check for new mails, and move it to the appropriate
IMAP folder(s). Then I would disable all rules in all my other
clients, and let them be passive in that respect. The main problem
with writing such a tool is that the IMAP protocol is a real pain to
use. That said, I seem to remember that a client library exists for
Perl.

Another problem is flags. Flags are stored on the IMAP server, of
course, and while most important flags (e.g. "read", "answered", ...)
are standardised, several clients use their own flags. Gnus, for
example, uses a flag called "gnus-expire" to mark expired messages.
Apple's Mail.app uses "NotJunk", "Junk" and "JunkRecorded" flags to
handle spam.

No big deal really, but the fact is that from Mail.app or Horde I
cannot mark mail to be expired by Gnus. And from Gnus I cannot mark
spam in a way recognised by Mail.app (well, with some elisp code I
certainly could).

The third problem (a small one) is special folders. Gnus, Mail.app and IMP
all have their own idea about where to archive sent mails, what to do
with deleted mails, and where to put drafts. Most clients enable you
to configure the IMAP folder to use for these tasks, though, so it's a
minor issue really.

Michel.

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Niklas Morberg]

Michel Schinz <Michel.Schinz@epfl.ch> writes:

> The idea would be to have an IMAP splitting client running
> all the time on my Linux box. The client would periodically
> check for new mails, and move it to the appropriate IMAP
> folder(s).

I use gnus for this. Emacs and gnus are always up and running
on my constantly connected office machine. I then use the
deamon functionality in gnus to get new mails (and do some
other stuff):

  (gnus-demon-add-handler 'gnus-group-expire-all-groups 90 60)
  (gnus-demon-add-handler 'gnus-agent-regenerate 90 60)
  (gnus-demon-add-handler 'gnus-agent-fetch-session 90 60)
  (gnus-demon-add-handler 'gnus-demon-scan-mail 90 60)

Then I can read properly sorted emails on the IMAP server
from any client.

Maybe this could work for you too?

Niklas

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Niklas" == Niklas Morberg <niklas.morberg@axis.com> writes:

Niklas> I use gnus for this. Emacs and gnus are always up and running
Niklas> on my constantly connected office machine. I then use the
Niklas> deamon functionality in gnus to get new mails (and do some
Niklas> other stuff):

Niklas>   (gnus-demon-add-handler 'gnus-group-expire-all-groups 90 60)
Niklas>   (gnus-demon-add-handler 'gnus-agent-regenerate 90 60)
Niklas>   (gnus-demon-add-handler 'gnus-agent-fetch-session 90 60)
Niklas>   (gnus-demon-add-handler 'gnus-demon-scan-mail 90 60)

Niklas> Then I can read properly sorted emails on the IMAP server
Niklas> from any client.

Niklas> Maybe this could work for you too?

Ahh, this is starting to sound more and more probable, since I boot
emacs about once every two months, running "screen emacs".  How tough
is it to migrate from 255 nnml groups back into nnimap?  And
what do I have to set up to do that?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Kai Großjohann]

Michel Schinz <Michel.Schinz@epfl.ch> writes:

> The major one is mail splitting. Gnus, Mail.app and IMP all have ways
> to sort mail, but of course they are not compatible. Which means that
> you either have to install an IMAP server with server-side splitting,
> or have to find another way. I didn't experiment with server-side
> splitting, but I fear that the solutions available now (i.e. SIEVE)
> are not powerful enough to filter SPAM using external tools
> (SpamAssassin or whatever).

I'm not a SpamAssassin poweruser (in fact, I just installed it and
then forgot about it until a few seconds ago), but my setup works
nicely with this: incoming mail is passed by Postfix through SA,
before ending up in the Cyrus server.  There, Sieve can be used to
split based on the headers added by SA.

I didn't know what I was doing, so I'm rather surprised it works.

In /etc/postfix/master.cf, augment the smtp line as follows:

smtp      inet  n       -       -       -       -       smtpd
        -o content_filter=filter:

And also add a filter line (okay, two lines), like this:

filter  unix    -       n       n       -       -       pipe
        flags=Rq user=spamassassin argv=/etc/postfix/spamassassin.sh -f ${sender} -- ${recipient}

Hm.  I'm not sure if the script does the right thing.  It seems it
should just frob the headers and dump the message to standard out.
But it invokes sendmail.  Hm.  I got the script from some readme or
other, or maybe from the web:

#!/bin/sh
INSPECT_DIR=/var/spool/spamassassin
SENDMAIL="/usr/sbin/sendmail -i"

# Exit codes (snarfed from sysexists.h)
EX_TEMPFAIL=75
EX_UNAVAILABLE=69

# Clean up when done or when aborting.
trap "rm -f in.$$ out.$$" 0 1 2 3 15

# Start processing.
cd $INSPECT_DIR || { echo $INSPECT_DIR does not exist; exit $EX_TEMPFAIL; }

cat >in.$$ || { echo Cannot save mail to file; exit $EX_TEMPFAIL; }

#( echo "X-Filtered: yes" ; cat in.$$ ) > out.$$ || \
#       { echo Filter failure; exit $EX_UNAVAILABLE; }
/usr/bin/spamc -f <in.$$ >out.$$ || \
    { echo Message content rejected; exit $EX_UNAVAILABLE; }

$SENDMAIL "$@" <out.$$

exit $?
-- 
A turnip curses Elvis

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)  on Fri, 07 Feb 2003
| I'm a road warrior.  My laptop goes with me.  But sometimes, I'm in an
| internet cafe that won't let me plug in my laptop (more often than
| not, in fact).  So I want to read my email directly on my server.

| Your setup won't work.  Thanks for the suggestions but it's not
| applicable at all.

I don't see the inapplicability, just the need for one more step: rsync
your News and Mail dirctories and .newsrc files between your notebook and
server as necessary and possible (ie, in your hotel room).  Then you can
use Gnus on your notebook when you can and on your server when necessary,
and you have a backup of your notebook mail files in case the notebook is
stolen or breaks.

-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ 
       That and five bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks.

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[David S Goldberg]

When I moved most of my nnml groups to nnimap, I wrote the following:

(defun nnml2imap-group ()
  (interactive)
  (gnus-group-make-group
   (concat "INBOX." (buffer-substring (region-beginning) (region-end)))
   "nnimap:linus"))

Obviously it's hardcoded for my environment.  You'll probably want to
fix that :-)

Then, in the group buffer I defined a keyboard macro that selected the
nnml group name (minus the nnml:) and ran the above function and then
jumped to the next nnml group line.  I ran C-x e with a large C-u
value and very quickly had all my nnimap groups set up.  Moving
messages from nnml to nnimap was also easy though a bit more time
consuming.  I wrote a temporary gnus-move-split-methods that replaced
the current (nnml) group name with its nnimap counter part.  M-P-b to
select all messages and then B-m RET took care of the rest.

hth,
-- 
Dave Goldberg
david.goldberg6@verizon.net

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[David S Goldberg]

For what it's worth, I keep my .News and .newsrc* files in synch
between several machines.  I prefer unison to rsync (unison is based
on rsync protocol, but provides bidirectional synchronization and
offers a merging capability (by calling emacs, of course :-).
-- 
Dave Goldberg
david.goldberg6@verizon.net

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:

Rat> | Your setup won't work.  Thanks for the suggestions but it's not
Rat> | applicable at all.

Rat> I don't see the inapplicability, just the need for one more step: rsync
Rat> your News and Mail dirctories and .newsrc files between your notebook and
Rat> server as necessary and possible (ie, in your hotel room).  Then you can
Rat> use Gnus on your notebook when you can and on your server when necessary,
Rat> and you have a backup of your notebook mail files in case the notebook is
Rat> stolen or breaks.

I'm not following the workflow.  When I'm on the road, I'm not about
to pull 1100 messages a day down over IMAP to my laptop at 28.8, only
to push them back up at 28.8 using rsync just to keep the two archives
in sync, or on the possibility that my next email reading will be
laptop-less.

Maybe it's just the sketchiness of your descriptions.  As we all say,
"the devil is in the details", and you left those out, or didn't think
through the implications.  Well, I *have* been, and I still don't have
a clean complete solution yet.  That's why I started the thread.
You're retreading the first work that I started, but I'm already past
that, and have ruled some of those solutions out.

Do I need to restate the goals?  Here they are, just in case:

0) I get 1100 messages a day, which I sort by a Perl filter.
1) sometimes my laptop is connected, sometimes it isn't.
2) when it's connected, sometimes it's broadband, sometimes it's 28.8
   where I'm paying by the minute.
3) most of the time, I'll be emailing while my laptop is connected.
4) sometimes I wanna answer email on my laptop when it's disconnected.
5) sometimes I wanna answer email at an internet cafe (no laptop) by
   ssh'ing into my server
6) a bonus would be answering email in a web interface, in case I can't
   get Putty or MindTerm to work (rarer these days)

I'm doing everything but 4 and 6 by my current setup (no live mail on
laptop, just ssh to server).  I wanna know what my options are to add
#4, and maybe #6.  The "IMAP" stuff sounded like it was heading in the
right direction, mixed with offline reader mode.  But I need to know
what the downsides are, compared to what I've been using.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "David" == David S Goldberg <david.goldberg6@verizon.net> writes:

David> For what it's worth, I keep my .News and .newsrc* files in synch
David> between several machines.  I prefer unison to rsync (unison is based
David> on rsync protocol, but provides bidirectional synchronization and
David> offers a merging capability (by calling emacs, of course :-).

How does that work for offline delivery and agent mode?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[David S Goldberg]

>>>>> On 07 Feb 2003 10:14:40 -0800, merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) said:

>>>>> "David" == David S Goldberg <david.goldberg6@verizon.net> writes:
David> For what it's worth, I keep my .News and .newsrc* files in synch
David> between several machines.  I prefer unison to rsync (unison is based
David> on rsync protocol, but provides bidirectional synchronization and
David> offers a merging capability (by calling emacs, of course :-).

> How does that work for offline delivery and agent mode?

In my case it's orthogonal.  Delivery goes into an IMAP server at work
which I can get to from three different places when I am at work: a
w2k laptop, a relatively standalone linux box, or any number of UNIX
(Sun, Linux, SGI) machines which access my home directory via AFS.  I
can also get to it via VPN or ssh from my home system but I choose not
to do that.  I use unison to keep all three work systems in sync.  In
the worst case, I read mail on one system and then on another without
sync'ing.  In that case, I lose out on updates to score files and
.newsrc.eld which is mostly minor annoyance.  I do not keep the
cache/agent in sync on them.  Since I only really use the agent on my
laptop it's not worth copying it over to the others.  I'm not sure
what you mean by off line delivery.  When I'm off line, the mail gets
delivered as it always does but I can't see it until I'm back on line.
But I know that you know that so there must be something else to the
term.

Thanks,
-- 
Dave Goldberg
david.goldberg6@verizon.net

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)  on Fri, 07 Feb 2003
| I'm doing everything but 4 and 6 by my current setup (no live mail on
| laptop, just ssh to server).  I wanna know what my options are to add
| #4, and maybe #6.  The "IMAP" stuff sounded like it was heading in the
| right direction, mixed with offline reader mode.  But I need to know
| what the downsides are, compared to what I've been using.

Details, as you say.  It was not clear that you do not keep any live mail
on your notebook (the name unofficially changed when they got too hot to
actually keep on one's lap :) other than what you might be composing.  The
kinds of setups that David and I use have all of our mail on our notebooks,
with mirrors elsewhere for when necessity requires it.

Even with the ammount of mail you get, even at 28.8Kb, I think you would
spend less time connected (and paying) if you were to fetch your entire
spool file in one lump transfer to your notebook and immediately shut down
the link instead of keeping a shell open.  When I was on a 28.8Kb link at
home and got some 500-800 messages a day, fetchmail could fetch my spool
from a POP server in usually 2-3 minutes, 5 minutes max if someone was
obnoxious, and fetchmail can be configured not to retrieve files more than
N octets if link speed is an issue.

If you are willing to move your mail operations to your notebook, then the
only times you need to be connected to a network are when you want to
download your mail, when you want to run your outgoing queue, and when you
want to sync your notebook and your shell server(s).  I think this is the
simplest overall setup.  It covers cases 1 through 4.  Case 5 remains an
option, as long as you keep your notebook and server in sync.  And the need
for case 6 is eliminated.

If not, then an IMAP server is the best way to go.  At the least, an IMAP
server is practically required for a webmail setup.

-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
       That and five bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks.

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:

Rat> If you are willing to move your mail operations to your notebook, then the
Rat> only times you need to be connected to a network are when you want to
Rat> download your mail, when you want to run your outgoing queue, and when you
Rat> want to sync your notebook and your shell server(s).  I think this is the
Rat> simplest overall setup.  It covers cases 1 through 4.  Case 5 remains an
Rat> option, as long as you keep your notebook and server in sync.

That's the one I question.  To read my email on the server when my
laptop is not around, I'd have to rsync all my email back *up* to the
server each time I brought it *down* and processed it (because
processing it usually involves renaming it to a more permanent folder,
and rsync doesn't handle renames).  That means all email is going
*twice* over 28.8 when I'm on the road.  And I'd have to do it *every*
time, on the off chance that I might need to use an Internet Cafe the
following day.

Or am I missing something?  Or did you not think that all the way
through?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)  on Fri, 07 Feb 2003
| That means all email is going *twice* over 28.8 when I'm on the road.
| And I'd have to do it *every* time, on the off chance that I might need
| to use an Internet Cafe the following day.

| Or am I missing something?  Or did you not think that all the way
| through?

If your server has a mirror of your filters as well as a mirror of your
mail files, you could run a remote copy of your spool through them at the
same time your run a local copy of your spool through them on your
notebook.  rsync (or some such) would be used to sync the differences that
you make on one to the other.

-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin.
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ 
       That and five bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks.

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:

Rat> * merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)  on Fri, 07 Feb 2003
Rat> | That means all email is going *twice* over 28.8 when I'm on the road.
Rat> | And I'd have to do it *every* time, on the off chance that I might need
Rat> | to use an Internet Cafe the following day.

Rat> | Or am I missing something?  Or did you not think that all the way
Rat> | through?

Rat> If your server has a mirror of your filters as well as a mirror of your
Rat> mail files, you could run a remote copy of your spool through them at the
Rat> same time your run a local copy of your spool through them on your
Rat> notebook.  rsync (or some such) would be used to sync the differences that
Rat> you make on one to the other.

No, it's the manual part of the process.  I get a message in my inbox.
I read it.  It relates to project1, so I "B m" it to nnml:project1.

No automation can do that.

In your scenario, If I did that on the laptop, I'd I have to rsync
back to the server, so that the message can be deleted from nnml:inbox
and inserted into nnml:project1.  Ugh.  Some of those have fat
attachments.  Double Ugh.  28.8 sucks, but for the road warrior, it's
still the norm.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Kai Großjohann]

merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:

> Do I need to restate the goals?  Here they are, just in case:
>
> 0) I get 1100 messages a day, which I sort by a Perl filter.
> 1) sometimes my laptop is connected, sometimes it isn't.
> 2) when it's connected, sometimes it's broadband, sometimes it's 28.8
>    where I'm paying by the minute.
> 3) most of the time, I'll be emailing while my laptop is connected.
> 4) sometimes I wanna answer email on my laptop when it's disconnected.
> 5) sometimes I wanna answer email at an internet cafe (no laptop) by
>    ssh'ing into my server
> 6) a bonus would be answering email in a web interface, in case I can't
>    get Putty or MindTerm to work (rarer these days)
>
> I'm doing everything but 4 and 6 by my current setup (no live mail on
> laptop, just ssh to server).  I wanna know what my options are to add
> #4, and maybe #6.  The "IMAP" stuff sounded like it was heading in the
> right direction, mixed with offline reader mode.  But I need to know
> what the downsides are, compared to what I've been using.

I still think that setting up an IMAP server and using Gnus in offline
mode is a good answer.  (Combined with an IMAP web interface.)

Regarding 0, you'd have to find a way to stick your Perl script
between the MTA and the IMAP server.  But you could just make your
Perl script the delivery agent, I think.  Postfix, for instance, knows
how to call procmail, so you could just use that facility.

Personally, I'm not that excited about Sieve, but I use it anyway
because I don't really *need* that much complexity in filtering.

Regarding 1, you can just download your mail whenever you are online.
I have (add-hook 'gnus-select-article-hook
'gnus-agent-fetch-selected-article) in my ~/.gnus, and it fetches
every message that you look at while online.  (Gnus has downloaded it
anyway for viewing, so why not store it in the agent...)  This makes
it faster to do the actual downloading.

Regarding 2, you can do batch transfers for the 28.8 case.  (I do
admit, however, that the agent fetches a bit much for my taste.  I'm
sure that will be found sooner or later.  I get the feeling that it
fetches too many headers, but I can't substantiate this.)

Regarding 3, that works out of the box if Gnus is plugged -- mail
just goes out, period.

Regarding 4, that also works out of the box if Gnus is unplugged --
mail stays in nndraft:queue...

Regarding 5, you have the webmail interface.  Or you can use any IMAP
client you like -- in online/connected/plugged mode.

One problem I see is that there are problems with
nnmail-split-fancy-with-parent: it accesses a local file on the host
where Gnus is running, so it won't work when you ssh to your server,
or use the webmail interface.

Another problem is that you can't move a message while disconnected.
I don't like this at all, but I don't know what to do.  (Messages to
be moved could be put in nndraft:queue, but then they won't show up
in the target group until you go online again.  Something that shows
messages in the target group right away would be difficult to
implement, given the Gnus architecture.)

-- 
A turnip curses Elvis

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)  on Fri, 07 Feb 2003
| No, it's the manual part of the process.  I get a message in my inbox.
| I read it.  It relates to project1, so I "B m" it to nnml:project1.

| No automation can do that.

Automating the sync.

| In your scenario, If I did that on the laptop, I'd I have to rsync
| back to the server, so that the message can be deleted from nnml:inbox
| and inserted into nnml:project1.  Ugh.  Some of those have fat
| attachments.  Double Ugh.  28.8 sucks, but for the road warrior, it's
| still the norm.

In my book, fat attachments and 28.8Kb are treated as mutually exclusive
conditions.  If you do not, then you are stuck with doing everything on
your server.  IMAP, with all the headaches that can entail, is going to be
the only thing that will work.

-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin.
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ 
       That and five bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks.

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[David Wuertele]

Randal> Help.  I can't be the only one who wants to read and answer
Randal> email both while online and offline.

I bought myself a 30GB laptop drive and slapped it into an el-cheapo
USB2.0 clamshell enclosure.  My .gnus and all my maildirs are on that
drive.  No matter what computer I plug my USB drive into, when I run
emacs it gets pointed at the .gnus file on the drive.

Each computer that I read news on has a crontab script running once
per minute.  The script checks what interfaces are available and
whether the USB drive is mounted.  If the drive is moutned and one or
more interface is available, the script downloads mail as appropriate
for that interface by selecting the appropriate fetchmail config file
and running

fetchmail --nodetach -f $FETCHMAILHOME/.fetchmailrc-$this

In fact, I have different fetchmailrc files not only for different
interfaces, but for different mail addresses.

Each fetchmailrc has lines like

      mda "/usr/local/bin/maildir ~/mail/maildirs/$some_maildir"

for delivering the mail into the appropriate maildir, where GNUS finds
it.

I find this setup meets my needs perfectly.  I don't need to carry a
laptop around anymore, I just need to make sure that my destination
has a computer with a USB2.0 port and emacs.  In fact, I go a step
further and mount the USB drive as a loop-aes encrypted partition.
But thats a whole 'nother story.

Does this meet your requirements?

Dave

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "David" == David Wuertele <dave-gnus@bfnet.com> writes:

Randal> Help.  I can't be the only one who wants to read and answer
Randal> email both while online and offline.

David> I find this setup meets my needs perfectly.  I don't need to carry a
David> laptop around anymore, I just need to make sure that my destination
David> has a computer with a USB2.0 port and emacs.  In fact, I go a step
David> further and mount the USB drive as a loop-aes encrypted partition.
David> But thats a whole 'nother story.

David> Does this meet your requirements?

Nope.

I read it twice, and I can't figure out how it meets *any* of them. :)

I have a laptop. I can't leave it at home. I'm going to a hotel room.
My destination doesn't "have a computer".  It's a hotel room.  Or a
bar.  Or an airplane.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

David> Does this meet your requirements?

Actually, I'm unable to write you directly, Dave.  Your mailer
won't accept email from merlyn@stonehenge.com, in spite of me
replying to your autoreply exactly as it instructs.  (All I get
is a new autoreply, telling me to do the same thing again.)

If you're interested in actually having a conversation, get
rid of your anti-spam software.

It sucks.

Moral of the story: if you install anti-spam software that requires a
positive confirmation before unblocking an address (a) there'll be
people that never bother, and so you never hear from them, and (b)
sometimes your software sucks and blocks people even when they follow
the actions to the letter.

If you don't want spam, don't have an email adddress.  Get over it.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[David Wuertele]

Randal> If you're interested in actually having a conversation, get
Randal> rid of your anti-spam software.
Randal> It sucks.

It was misconfigured.

Sorry if TMDA caused you grief.  It hasn't caused me any.  In fact, it
has solved *all* the spam problems I had.  If it has introduced new
ones, I haven't discovered them yet.  As long as I don't, you can have
my spam software when you pry it from my...

Randal> Moral of the story: if you install anti-spam software that
Randal> requires a positive confirmation before unblocking an address
Randal> (a) there'll be people that never bother, and so you never
Randal> hear from them, and (b) sometimes your software sucks and
Randal> blocks people even when they follow the actions to the letter.

a) if they don't bother, and I don't hear from them, it must not have
   been very important.  There are many more ways to get hold of me
   than by email.

b) sometimes user error is the real cause of suckage.  that was the
   case this time.  Mea culpa, I actually tried to do something
   different than how the "manual" said to do it.

Randal> If you don't want spam, don't have an email adddress.  Get
Randal> over it.

I think you're just lashing out due to frustration.  I don't have any
other explanation for an engineer deciding that there is no way to
solve a problem.

I haven't seen a single spam since I started using TMDA, and the only
issue I've had was your email.  There was a period of an hour or two
when I had set up my dot qmail files incorrectly --- so the problem
wasn't even related to TMDA, it was my misconfiguration of qmail.

Dave

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Bjørn Mork]

David Wuertele <dave-gnus@bfnet.com> writes:

> Randal> Moral of the story: if you install anti-spam software that
> Randal> requires a positive confirmation before unblocking an address
> Randal> (a) there'll be people that never bother, and so you never
> Randal> hear from them, and (b) sometimes your software sucks and
> Randal> blocks people even when they follow the actions to the letter.
>
> a) if they don't bother, and I don't hear from them, it must not have
>    been very important.  

For them, no. For you - who knows? It might be, but you'll never know.

> There are many more ways to get hold of me
>    than by email.

Sure. So why do you even bother having an email address? People can
always get hold of you in some other way.


Bjørn
-- 
I have many young friends.  

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[David Wuertele]

Bjørn> For them, no. For you - who knows? It might be, but you'll
Bjørn> never know.

Right, and if I didn't use TMDA, I would miss even more opportunities!
The other day I got six thousand spams.  SIX THOUSAND.  Did I read
every single one to make sure it wasn't from someone legit?  Of course
not, I don't have that kind of time.

>> There are many more ways to get hold of me than by email.

Bjørn> Sure. So why do you even bother having an email address? People
Bjørn> can always get hold of you in some other way.

Convenience.  What's your point?

Re: road warrior trying to simplify a mail setup

[Bjørn Mork]

David Wuertele <dave-gnus@bfnet.com> writes:

>>> There are many more ways to get hold of me than by email.
>
> Bjørn> Sure. So why do you even bother having an email address? People
> Bjørn> can always get hold of you in some other way.
>
> Convenience.  What's your point?

Exactly that. Most people want convenience. You are making it less
convenient for others to contact you. That's fine if everyone you want
to communicate with accepts the unnecessary inconvenience because they
gain so much from talking to you. Personally, I find it somewhat
arrogant to make such an assumption.


Bjørn
-- 
It's well known that if you've seen one venereal disease, you've seen
them all.