Re: real programmers(TM)

Re: real programmers(TM)

[Aaron M. Ucko]

Brian May <bmay@csse.monash.edu.au> writes:

> cat > a.out

Bah, that's for wimps.

        cat /dev/audio > a.out

and whistle into the microphone. ;-)

> (then again, not sure what adb is...)

A traditional Unix debugger, still found on Solaris and maybe other
platforms.

-- 
Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC <amu@mit.edu> (finger amu@monk.mit.edu)

Re: real programmers(TM)

[Toby Speight]

Aaron> Aaron M. Ucko <URL:mailto:amu@MIT.EDU>

0> In article <udlwvkixbdp.fsf@quiche-lorraine.mit.edu>, Aaron wrote:

Aaron> Bah, that's for wimps.
Aaron>
Aaron>         cat /dev/audio > a.out
Aaron>
Aaron> and whistle into the microphone. ;-)

cat /dev/random >a.out

If you've seeded the RNG correctly, nothing more to do.

Re: real programmers(TM)

[Norman Walsh]

/ Toby Speight <streapadair@gmx.net> was heard to say:
| cat /dev/random >a.out
| 
| If you've seeded the RNG correctly, nothing more to do.

I fear that's an incomplete solution. There are only a finite
number of seed values.

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | Internet connection, $19.95 a month.
http://nwalsh.com/            | Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95.
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                              | everything else, there's
                              | MasterCard.--Graham Reed, in the Scary
                              | Devil Monastery

Re: real programmers(TM)

[Kai Großjohann]

Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> writes:

> I fear that's an incomplete solution. There are only a finite
> number of seed values.

IIRC, /dev/random is a real random number generator, not a pseudo
random number generator.  So no problem there.

kai
-- 
I like BOTH kinds of music.

Re: real programmers(TM)

[Jaap-Henk Hoepman]

On Fri, 26 May 2000 13:28:42 +0200 Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
> Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> writes:
> 
> > I fear that's an incomplete solution. There are only a finite
> > number of seed values.
> 
> IIRC, /dev/random is a real random number generator, not a pseudo
> random number generator.  So no problem there.

But it blocks as soon as the entropy pool is (estimated to be) empty. So the
problem remains :-)

Jaap-Henk

-- 
Jaap-Henk Hoepman             | Come sail your ships around me
Dept. of Computer Science     | And burn these bridges down
University of Twente          |       Nick Cave - "Ship Song"
Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman
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Re: real programmers(TM)

[William M. Perry]

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Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes:

> On Fri, 26 May 2000 13:28:42 +0200 Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
> > Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> writes:
> > 
> > > I fear that's an incomplete solution. There are only a finite
> > > number of seed values.
> > 
> > IIRC, /dev/random is a real random number generator, not a pseudo
> > random number generator.  So no problem there.
> 
> But it blocks as soon as the entropy pool is (estimated to be) empty. So the
> problem remains :-)

But doesn't it seed it from interrupt timings, etc?  So just play a
bandwidth/keyboard/mouse intensive shoot-em-up game, and you write your
program while having fun at the same time. :)

-bp

Re: real programmers(TM)

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>  on Fri, 26 May 2000
| I fear that's an incomplete solution. There are only a finite
| number of seed values.

And modern /dev/random implementations are cryptographically secure.
-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
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The <word>.<word>.<word> rule

[Per Abrahamsen]

Could we please remove the "<word>.<word>.<word> is a http address"
heuristic?  It is embarrassing.  While I'm, all for heuristics, they
should bear some resemblance to reality.  I'm getting hits on version
numbers, cvs servers and partial mail addresses.  It's making the
buttonization of the article buffer a joke rather than a help.

Any heuristic that assumes than a name that doesn't have http: method
prepended or at least start with "www." is a http server is going to
generate zillions of false positives.

Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> Could we please remove the "<word>.<word>.<word> is a http address"
> heuristic?  It is embarrassing.

I agree.  The number of false positives is astounding.

Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Miroslav Zubcic <miroslav.zubcic@zesoi.fer.hr> writes:

> Karl Kleinpaste <karl@charcoal.com> writes:
> 
> > M-x customize RET gnus-article-buttons RET
> > Look at gnus-button-url-regexp.
> > Strip off everything from the last "\|" to the end.
> > Set, save, exit customize, exit Gnus, exit Emacs.
> > Start a fresh Emacs, start Gnus.
> 
> Yes, I know that, but I preffer to edit .gnus myself rather then
> allowing automatic writing to .xemacs-options or .emacs.

Then use `M-x find-variable RET gnus-button-url-regexp RET' to locate
the variable definition, copy/paste it to your .gnus (remember to
change `defvar' to `setq' and lose the docstring and custom options),
and edit it at your leasure.

> I found good string posted by
> Per Abrahamsen <rj1z339a3z.fsf_-_@zuse.dina.kvl.dk> This string is
> just fine, not too much, not too small. (Main problem was strings and
> regexps, this `|\(%' are hardly readible to me).

Sigh, a standard problem in languages that don't support a regexp
syntax.

Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule

[François Pinard]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@iskon.hr> writes:

> Miroslav Zubcic <miroslav.zubcic@zesoi.fer.hr> writes:

> > I found good string posted by
> > Per Abrahamsen <rj1z339a3z.fsf_-_@zuse.dina.kvl.dk> This string is
> > just fine, not too much, not too small. (Main problem was strings and
> > regexps, this `|\(%' are hardly readible to me).

> Sigh, a standard problem in languages that don't support a regexp syntax.

I did not follow this thread in detail, but let me add my grain of salt
nevertheless (or my grain of sand, depending on how you see it :-).

When I saw all this new highlighting, my first impression was positive,
as I like non-language to stand out in some way.  It was not perfect:
for example, the name part (before the `@') was forgotten, but overall,
it looked like a step in a good direction.

But when I realised that associated with the highlighting, was a button
invariably presuming, wrongly in most cases, that we were facing an HTTP
reference, my joy disappeared: this was far too dumb to be clever.

In a word, I like non-language to be highlighted.  However, button
association should be done _much_ more carefully.

I do not know if this might be useful, but here is some Python code I use to
highlight, then buttonize plain text while converting it into HTML pages.
The results are satisfying most of times, and maybe it could point towards
some compromise?  [Python regexps are Perlish more than Emacsish.]


def enhance(text, verbatim=0):
    text = string.replace(text, '&', '&amp;')
    text = string.replace(text, '<', '&lt;')
    text = string.replace(text, '>', '&gt;')
    text = string.replace(text, '\f', '')
    if verbatim:
        text = re.sub(r'((mailto:|http://|ftp://)[-_.@~/a-zA-Z0-9]+)',
                      r'<a href="\1">\1</a>', text)
    else:
        text = re.sub(r'((mailto:|http://|ftp://)([-_.@~/a-zA-Z0-9]+))',
                      r'<a href="\1">\3</a>', text)
    text = re.sub((r'(^|[^-_%+./a-zA-Z0-9:])'
                   r'([-_%+./a-zA-Z0-9]+@[-a-zA-Z0-9]+\.[-.a-zA-Z0-9]+)'),
                  r'\1<a href="mailto:\2">\2</a>', text)
    if verbatim:
        text = re.sub(r'_([-_@./a-zA-Z0-9]+)_', r'_<i>\1</i>_', text)
        text = re.sub(r'\*([-_@./a-zA-Z0-9]+)\*', r'*<b>\1</b>*', text)
        text = re.sub(r"`([-_@./a-zA-Z0-9]+)'", r"`<tt><b>\1</b></tt>'",
                      text)
    else:
        text = re.sub(r'_([-_@./a-zA-Z0-9]+)_', r'<i>\1</i>', text)
        text = re.sub(r'\*([-_@./a-zA-Z0-9]+)\*', r'<b>\1</b>', text)
        text = re.sub(r"`([-_@./a-zA-Z0-9]+)'", r'<tt><b>\1</b></tt>',
                      text)
    return text


P.S. - By the way, Lars, I would much like having a Python version of Gnus!
Would you add this to the Gnus TODO file? :-) :-) :-)

-- 
François Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard

Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[Jaap-Henk Hoepman]

On 16 May 2000 07:58:24 -0400 François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> P.S. - By the way, Lars, I would much like having a Python version of Gnus!
> Would you add this to the Gnus TODO file? :-) :-) :-)

I'd very much like to see a Python Emacs!!!! Does your remark mean it 
exists :-O !?

Jaap-Henk

-- 
Jaap-Henk Hoepman             | Come sail your ships around me
Dept. of Computer Science     | And burn these bridges down
University of Twente          |       Nick Cave - "Ship Song"
Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman
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Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[François Pinard]

Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> écrit:

> François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> > P.S. - By the way, Lars, I would much like having a Python version of Gnus!
> > Would you add this to the Gnus TODO file? :-) :-) :-)

> I'd very much like to see a Python Emacs!!!!  Does your remark mean it 
> exists :-O !?

Even if a Python Emacs existed, I could not switch using it unless Gnus
followed me.  If Lars does rewrite Gnus in Python, who knows if it would
not be the initial push that we need to do something sensible! :-)

The idea of a Python Emacs comes from time to time, outside the FSF
of course, but nothing serious gets done about it, so far that I know.
Emacs is very deep in my habits, and I have huge configuration files.
But if there was a sufficiently interesting editor (something hard to find)
with Python as an extension language, I would seriously consider switching.
Someone told me that `vim' supports Python, but I do not see myself using
`vi', as I suffer too much each time I try :-).  But I just do not dare
to imagine how I could handle all my mail, without Gnus.

Lars, my dear Lars, aren't you tired of Emacs LISP? :-)

-- 
François Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard

Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[Kai Großjohann]

What's so bad about Lisp that people are requesting a Java Emacs or a
Python Emacs or a Perl Emacs?
kai
-- 
Beware of flying birch trees.

Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann)  on Wed, 17 May 2000
| What's so bad about Lisp that people are requesting a Java Emacs or a
| Python Emacs or a Perl Emacs?

Lisp is considered to be evil by allegedly "real programmers" who think C++
is the be-all, end-all language for everything.
-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ 
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ 

Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[Jaap-Henk Hoepman]

On Wed, 17 May 2000 16:37:21 -0400 Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
> * Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann)  on Wed, 17 May 2000
> | What's so bad about Lisp that people are requesting a Java Emacs or a
> | Python Emacs or a Perl Emacs?
> 
> Lisp is considered to be evil by allegedly "real programmers" who think C++
> is the be-all, end-all language for everything.

Actually, C is a macro assembler which makes C++ ... an object oriented macro
assembler :-)

My problem with LISP is that it is a functional programming language used
imperatively, which, at least to me, makes any reasonably complex lisp function
very hard to read...

If only lisp didn't have setq... :-)

Jaap-Henk

-- 
Jaap-Henk Hoepman             | Come sail your ships around me
Dept. of Computer Science     | And burn these bridges down
University of Twente          |       Nick Cave - "Ship Song"
Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman
Phone: +31 53 4893795 === Secr: +31 53 4893770 === Fax: +31 53 4894590
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Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[Stainless Steel Rat]

* Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl>  on Thu, 18 May 2000
| Actually, C is a macro assembler which makes C++ ... an object oriented
| macro assembler:-)

Very good.  Paste a star on your forehead. :)

| My problem with LISP is that it is a functional programming language used
| imperatively, which, at least to me, makes any reasonably complex lisp
| function very hard to read...

The idea is that you recursively break a task up into successively smaller
tasks, then you write functions to implement these little tasks.  Getting
back to the natural language analogy, each of these simple, "microtask"
functions is like a word.  Words are joined to form phrases, which are
joined to form sentences, which are joined to form paragraphs, etc.
-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ 

Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[Jaap-Henk Hoepman]

On Fri, 19 May 2000 10:42:00 -0400 Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
> * Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl>  on Thu, 18 May 2000
> | Actually, C is a macro assembler which makes C++ ... an object oriented
> | macro assembler:-)
> 
> Very good.  Paste a star on your forehead. :)
> 

I feel radiant... :-)

> | My problem with LISP is that it is a functional programming language used
> | imperatively, which, at least to me, makes any reasonably complex lisp
> | function very hard to read...
> 
> The idea is that you recursively break a task up into successively smaller
> tasks, then you write functions to implement these little tasks.  Getting
> back to the natural language analogy, each of these simple, "microtask"
> functions is like a word.  Words are joined to form phrases, which are
> joined to form sentences, which are joined to form paragraphs, etc.

I know the basic idea of functional programming, thank you. I also know it's
good for certain programming tasks, and bad for others, and is actually not
used all that often... 

LISP is a very bad functional programming language, because
it allows you to use it imperatively: first do this, change the program state,
then do that, etc.... and the syntax is really horrible.

I have managed, over the years, to write simple LISP code for emacs-related
stuff. There have been many times I would have liked to do something more
complex, but was stopped by the `obnoxiousness' of LISP...

Jaap-Henk

-- 
Jaap-Henk Hoepman             | Come sail your ships around me
Dept. of Computer Science     | And burn these bridges down
University of Twente          |       Nick Cave - "Ship Song"
Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman
Phone: +31 53 4893795 === Secr: +31 53 4893770 === Fax: +31 53 4894590
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Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[Kai Großjohann]

Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes:

> LISP is a very bad functional programming language, because it
> allows you to use it imperatively: first do this, change the program
> state, then do that, etc.... and the syntax is really horrible.

Why are you using it imperatively, then, if you don't want to?  Or are
you speaking of modifying existing code?

kai
-- 
Beware of flying birch trees.

Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[Hal Snyder]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes:
> 
> > LISP is a very bad functional programming language, because it
> > allows you to use it imperatively: first do this, change the program
> > state, then do that, etc.... and the syntax is really horrible.
> 
> Why are you using it imperatively, then, if you don't want to?  Or are
> you speaking of modifying existing code?

Ok, so what we *really* need is Emacs based on Erlang or Haskell.

Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[Eric S. Johansson]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stainless Steel Rat" <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: "(ding)" <ding@gnus.org>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)


> * Hal Snyder <hal@vailsys.com>  on Mon, 22 May 2000
> | Ok, so what we *really* need is Emacs based on Erlang or Haskell.
> 
> Bah!  Real Programmers write hand-optimized assembly opcodes from memory.
> Macro assemblers are for wussies.  And don't get me started on those
> so-called "high-level" languages.

I thought real programmers used:

emacs a.out

:-) 

Re: Python Emacs (was Re: The <word>.<word>.<word> rule)

[Lloyd Zusman]

"Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us> writes:

> From: "Stainless Steel Rat" <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >
> > Bah!  Real Programmers write hand-optimized assembly opcodes from memory.
> > Macro assemblers are for wussies.  And don't get me started on those
> > so-called "high-level" languages.
> 
> I thought real programmers used:
> 
> emacs a.out

Nope, they use ...

   adb a.out

... to create executables from scratch.  This includes creating the
`emacs' executable for all those wusses on the system who want to
use it.

Also, they just use `adb' to patch the kernel while it's running.

And for those systems that no longer have `adb', they create their own
`adb' by using `ed' and entering the binary opcodes to create `adb'.

> :-) 

-- 
 Lloyd Zusman
 ljz@asfast.com

Re: real programmers(TM)

[Brian May]

>>>>> "Lloyd" == Lloyd Zusman <ljz@asfast.com> writes:

    Lloyd> Nope, they use ...

    Lloyd>    adb a.out

I always thought that the proper tool was

cat > a.out

or

echo "[insert program string here]" > a.out

(then again, not sure what adb is...)
-- 
Brian May <bmay@csse.monash.edu.au>

Re: real programmers(TM)

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Brian May <bmay@csse.monash.edu.au> writes:

> (then again, not sure what adb is...)

`adb' is the thing you use for control characters that `ed' and `cat'
won't grok.  Linux wussies don't have adb.  Har har har har!