\| should give two || and not one

\| should give two || and not one

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

Dear list,

\starttext
$\|v\|$
\stoptext

I expect two vertical bars on each side of v, but see only one.

Tested with the latest beta.

/Mikael
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Wim W. Wilhelm]

use $\Vert v \Vert$

Wim W. Wilhelm

> Dear list,
>
> \starttext
> $\|v\|$
> \stoptext
>
> I expect two vertical bars on each side of v, but see only one.
>
> Tested with the latest beta.
>
> /Mikael
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to 
> the Wiki!
>
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 


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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Wim W. Wilhelm <ww.wilhelm@kpnmail.nl> wrote:
> use $\Vert v \Vert$
>
> Wim W. Wilhelm
>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> \starttext
>> $\|v\|$
>> \stoptext
>>
>> I expect two vertical bars on each side of v, but see only one.
>>
>> Tested with the latest beta.
>>
>> /Mikael
>>

Thank you for your reply, Wim. I guess most/some people writing
mathematics are used to write \| to get double bars from LaTeX, and if
I remember correctly it was also like this in ConTeXt some time ago.

If this is changed on purpose I can very well use \Vert instead.

/Mikael
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Wim W. Wilhelm]

Dear Mikael,

It is TEX.

Wim W. Wilhelm


> On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Wim W. Wilhelm <ww.wilhelm@kpnmail.nl> 
> wrote:
>> use $\Vert v \Vert$
>>
>> Wim W. Wilhelm
>>
>>> Dear list,
>>>
>>> \starttext
>>> $\|v\|$
>>> \stoptext
>>>
>>> I expect two vertical bars on each side of v, but see only one.
>>>
>>> Tested with the latest beta.
>>>
>>> /Mikael
>>>
>
> Thank you for your reply, Wim. I guess most/some people writing
> mathematics are used to write \| to get double bars from LaTeX, and if
> I remember correctly it was also like this in ConTeXt some time ago.
>
> If this is changed on purpose I can very well use \Vert instead.
>
> /Mikael
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to 
> the Wiki!
>
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> 


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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Wim W. Wilhelm <ww.wilhelm@kpnmail.nl> wrote:
> Dear Mikael,
>
> It is TEX.
>
> Wim W. Wilhelm
>
>
>> On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Wim W. Wilhelm <ww.wilhelm@kpnmail.nl>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> use $\Vert v \Vert$
>>>
>>> Wim W. Wilhelm
>>>
>>>> Dear list,
>>>>
>>>> \starttext
>>>> $\|v\|$
>>>> \stoptext
>>>>
>>>> I expect two vertical bars on each side of v, but see only one.
>>>>
>>>> Tested with the latest beta.
>>>>
>>>> /Mikael
>>>>
>>
>> Thank you for your reply, Wim. I guess most/some people writing
>> mathematics are used to write \| to get double bars from LaTeX, and if
>> I remember correctly it was also like this in ConTeXt some time ago.
>>
>> If this is changed on purpose I can very well use \Vert instead.
>>
>> /Mikael
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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Dear Wim,

oh, sorry. I did not know that TeX set \| to \vert and not \Vert. Then
probably my memory fails me that \| gave \Vert in earlier versions of
ConTeXt aswell. I'll have to get used to \Vert, I guess.

/Mikael
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Wim W. Wilhelm <ww.wilhelm@kpnmail.nl> wrote:
>> Dear Mikael,
>>
>> It is TEX.
>>
>> Wim W. Wilhelm
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Wim W. Wilhelm <ww.wilhelm@kpnmail.nl>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> use $\Vert v \Vert$
>>>>
>>>> Wim W. Wilhelm
>>>>
>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>
>>>>> \starttext
>>>>> $\|v\|$
>>>>> \stoptext
>>>>>
>>>>> I expect two vertical bars on each side of v, but see only one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tested with the latest beta.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Mikael
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for your reply, Wim. I guess most/some people writing
>>> mathematics are used to write \| to get double bars from LaTeX, and if
>>> I remember correctly it was also like this in ConTeXt some time ago.
>>>
>>> If this is changed on purpose I can very well use \Vert instead.
>>>
>>> /Mikael
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>> the Wiki!
>>>
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Dear Wim,
>
> oh, sorry. I did not know that TeX set \| to \vert and not \Vert. Then
> probably my memory fails me that \| gave \Vert in earlier versions of
> ConTeXt aswell. I'll have to get used to \Vert, I guess.
>
> /Mikael

Dear Wim,

funny thing is that now that I had a look in my copy of the TeXBook I see

\let\|=\Vert

on page 361.

/Mikael
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear list,
>
> \starttext
> $\|v\|$
> \stoptext
>
> I expect two vertical bars on each side of v, but see only one.
>
> Tested with the latest beta.
>
For what I see

\starttext
 $\|v\|$

 $\Vert v\Vert$

 $\vert v\vert$

 $‖v‖$

\stoptext

|𝑣|
‖𝑣‖
|𝑣|
‖𝑣‖


--
luigi
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

Indeed, luigi, but is that what you expect?

/Mikael

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 5:19 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear list,
>>
>> \starttext
>> $\|v\|$
>> \stoptext
>>
>> I expect two vertical bars on each side of v, but see only one.
>>
>> Tested with the latest beta.
>>
> For what I see
>
> \starttext
>  $\|v\|$
>
>  $\Vert v\Vert$
>
>  $\vert v\vert$
>
>  $‖v‖$
>
> \stoptext
>
> |𝑣|
> ‖𝑣‖
> |𝑣|
> ‖𝑣‖
>
>
> --
> luigi
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[luigi scarso]

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> Indeed, luigi, but is that what you expect?
Hm, hard to say for me.
I find natural to use \vert and \Vert or, if possible, | and ‖ .
LaTeXt users find natural that  \| is ‖, but I don't see, as a ConTeXt
user,  a particular meaning in \| .



--
luigi
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:42 AM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Indeed, luigi, but is that what you expect?
> Hm, hard to say for me.
> I find natural to use \vert and \Vert or, if possible, | and || .
> LaTeXt users find natural that  \| is ||, but I don't see, as a ConTeXt
> user,  a particular meaning in \| .
>

I think that since \| is defined as \Vert in the TeXbook and everyone
writing mathematics in LaTeX are used to \| to mean \Vert there is no
reason to have different behaviour in ConTeXt.

/Mikael
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Keith J. Schultz]

Hi All,

In a way, it is correct that for compatibility reasons and and convert
it is good to keep the old syntax.

Yet, ConTeXt is suppose to be more natural. 

Personally, I find some of the names used in TeX and LaTeX often
hard to find. Whenever, I needed a function or symbol I to often
go look it up. I mean that \vert and \Vert are still cryptic. They can stand
for abs, for all in, etc. ..

Me, I prefer names that reflect the their functions, 

regards
	Keith.

Am 18.02.2013 um 10:51 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:42 AM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Indeed, luigi, but is that what you expect?
>> Hm, hard to say for me.
>> I find natural to use \vert and \Vert or, if possible, | and || .
>> LaTeXt users find natural that  \| is ||, but I don't see, as a ConTeXt
>> user,  a particular meaning in \| .
>> 
> 
> I think that since \| is defined as \Vert in the TeXbook and everyone
> writing mathematics in LaTeX are used to \| to mean \Vert there is no
> reason to have different behaviour in ConTeXt.
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/19/2013 8:36 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> In a way, it is correct that for compatibility reasons and and convert
> it is good to keep the old syntax.
>
> Yet, ConTeXt is suppose to be more natural.

I consider the \{ \} \| etc to be escapes for tex characters. In fact, 
if one wants || in math then it's more natural to support || directly.

> Personally, I find some of the names used in TeX and LaTeX often
> hard to find. Whenever, I needed a function or symbol I to often
> go look it up. I mean that \vert and \Vert are still cryptic. They can stand
> for abs, for all in, etc. ..

a next step (already partially done) is that we organize the names in 
dictionaries as in open math (a bit of work)

> Me, I prefer names that reflect the their functions,

me too and i wonder if we should have proper names as well i.e. use 
verbose names as default (in char-def.lua) and define the short ones as 
synonyms (in a tex file)

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> On 2/19/2013 8:36 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> In a way, it is correct that for compatibility reasons and and convert
>> it is good to keep the old syntax.
>>
>> Yet, ConTeXt is suppose to be more natural.
>
>
> I consider the \{ \} \| etc to be escapes for tex characters. In fact, if
> one wants || in math then it's more natural to support || directly.
>
>
>> Personally, I find some of the names used in TeX and LaTeX often
>> hard to find. Whenever, I needed a function or symbol I to often
>> go look it up. I mean that \vert and \Vert are still cryptic. They can
>> stand
>> for abs, for all in, etc. ..
>
>
> a next step (already partially done) is that we organize the names in
> dictionaries as in open math (a bit of work)
>
>
>> Me, I prefer names that reflect the their functions,
>
>
> me too and i wonder if we should have proper names as well i.e. use verbose
> names as default (in char-def.lua) and define the short ones as synonyms (in
> a tex file)
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

Fine. In principal I've nothing against typing || for double bars
(even though people moving from TeX/LaTeX probably will be used to |
for one bar and \| for two bars). Some questions:

* Can one expect to get the right (that is the same as \Vert gives)
spacing by typing || (two bars) in ConTeXt in the future?
* Sometimes one would like to write absoulte value of z times absolute
value of w, i.e. |z| times |w|. What if one writes |z||w|, will the
double bar in the middle be equivalent to \Vert? (That is not wanted)
* Will it be possible to write \Bigl|| and \Bigr|| to scale both bars
to other sizes?
* What if one would like to have three bars with the same spacing
between the bars as in \Vert?

/Mikael
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Keith J. Schultz]

Hi Mikeal,


Am 19.02.2013 um 10:50 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> 
[snip, snip]

>> a next step (already partially done) is that we organize the names in
>> dictionaries as in open math (a bit of work)
>> 
>> 
>>> Me, I prefer names that reflect the their functions,
>> 
>> 
>> me too and i wonder if we should have proper names as well i.e. use verbose
>> names as default (in char-def.lua) and define the short ones as synonyms (in
>> a tex file)
>> 
>> Hans
> 
[snip, snip]

> Fine. In principal I've nothing against typing || for double bars
> (even though people moving from TeX/LaTeX probably will be used to |
> for one bar and \| for two bars). Some questions:
> 
> * Can one expect to get the right (that is the same as \Vert gives)
> spacing by typing || (two bars) in ConTeXt in the future?
	I think we need to find a between input shortcuts and 
	feasiblity. One could just use unicode 02016 and \Vert.
	In unicodemath you also have \Vvert for three bars.

> * Sometimes one would like to write absoulte value of z times absolute
> value of w, i.e. |z| times |w|. What if one writes |z||w|, will the
> double bar in the middle be equivalent to \Vert? (That is not wanted)
	The proper way to lay this out is with a little whitspace between
	the to values, so input should be |z| |w| and not as |z||w| !

> * Will it be possible to write \Bigl|| and \Bigr|| to scale both bars
> to other sizes?
> * What if one would like to have three bars with the same spacing
> between the bars as in \Vert?
	See above!

regards
	Keith.

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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[luigi scarso]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> On 2/19/2013 8:36 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> Fine. In principal I've nothing against typing || for double bars
> (even though people moving from TeX/LaTeX probably will be used to |
> for one bar and \| for two bars). Some questions:
hm I mean  a single ‖ (unicode 2012, DOUBLE VERTICAL LINE) , not two ||, i.e.
a single unicode 0007C VERTICAL LINE inserted two times.

--
luigi
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 2/19/2013 8:36 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> In a way, it is correct that for compatibility reasons and and convert
>> it is good to keep the old syntax.
>>
>> Yet, ConTeXt is suppose to be more natural.
>
> I consider the \{ \} \| etc to be escapes for tex characters. In fact, if
> one wants || in math then it's more natural to support || directly.

Except that braces actually need an escape, while bars don't. I don't
see any advantage of "\|" representing a single vertical bar, it only
breaks compatibility and helps confuse those who used "\|" in other
flavours of TeX. There is a nice thread on SX:
    http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/498/mid-vert-lvert-rvert

As others have already written, one should use the appropriate unicode
character, not two bars. (Two bars are a separate symbol - I guess
that you probably don't want to recognise two subsequent bars are
replace them with a different glyph?) And even then there is a problem
with typographical conventions: whether the symbol is used as
left/right delimiter, as a binary operator, ...

Mojca
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Re: \| should give two || and not one

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/19/2013 1:09 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> that you probably don't want to recognise two subsequent bars are
> replace them with a different glyph?) And even then there is a problem

then you don't want to know what we i do with primes already

Hans

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