[NTG-context] redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[NTG-context] redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Carlos]

If I have the following, with these linebreaks as in:

{\par But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
influenced by a single person. {\obeylines Once the initial design is
complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
with many different viewpoints undertake their own
experiments.}}

and opted to load another font, other than cmr that is, a \frenchspacing
approach wouldn't be further required

Bear with me here, in the current state, for example, and as long as say 

«…person.␣{\obeylines Once the initial is
complete…» though feasible enough, leaves any prior \␣ at the mercy of
whatever fontsize and/or set width happens to be. And this is just plain
wrong.

Likewise, if a word sequence such as \TeX\ occurs as in {\ss The separation
of any of these four components would have hurt \TeX\ significantly. }

The next sentence: «If I had not participated…» does not get any 
\nofrenchspacing which is equally and doubly problematic. It shows lack of
consistency. And this ought not to be an ‹either› ‹or› scenario. But
rather, an and conjunctional construct. It fails both ways. 

Furthermore, with the same token, if width is specified with a 

\setuplayout[width=15cm]

Anything less than 12.895pt, especifically for that use case, wwould
throw anything, particularly control sequences such as \TeX\ out
of whack, and conversely, once a value of that very pt or pica or
whatever is lowered, it brings that nonfrenchspacing right back on.
And if width increments occur, then it follows that any control sequence kerning
also gets thrown off as a result.

It seems so far, that with lmtx, any standalone file, document, minimal
working example that does not load cmr at the outset does not produce
an acceptable outcome either. By saying acceptable I meant to say it
namely from a typographical point of view. Nothing else.

from the TeXbook 380-381

«\obeylines doesn’t say ‘\def^^M{\par}’, so we must make any desired changes to
\par before invoking \obeylines. (2) The \uncatcodespecials operation changes a
space to category 12; but the \tt font has the character ‘␣’ in the ⟨space⟩ position, so we
don’t really want ␣12 . (3) The \obeyspaces macro in Appendix B merely changes the
⟨space⟩ character to category 13; active character ␣13 has been defined to be the same
as \space, a macro that expands to ␣10 . This is usually what is desired; for example,
it means that spaces in constructions like ‘\hbox to 10 pt {...}’ won’t cause any
trouble. But in our application it has an undesirable effect, because it produces spaces
that are affected by the space factor. To defeat this feature, it’s necessary either to
say \frenchspacing or to redefine ␣13 to be the same as \␣. The latter alternative is
better, because the former will discard spaces at the beginning of each
line.»

«In theory, this seems like it ought to work; but in practice, it fails in two ways. One
rather obvious failure—at least, it becomes obvious when the macro is tested—is that
all the empty lines of the file are omitted. The reason is that the \par command at the
end of an empty line doesn’t start up a new paragraph, because it occurs in vertical
mode. The other failure is not as obvious, because it occurs much less often: The \tt
fonts contain ligatures for Spanish punctuation, so the sequences ?‘ and !‘ will be
printed as ¿ and ¡ respectively. Both of these defects can be cured by inserting

and 


«When INITEX creates a brand new TEX, all characters have a space factor code
of 1000, except that the uppercase letters ‘A’ through ‘Z’ have code 999. (This
slight difference is what makes punctuation act differently after an uppercase letter; do
you see why?) Plain TEX redefines a few of these codes using the \sfcode primitive,
which is similar to \catcode (see Appendix B); for example, the instructions
\sfcode‘)=0
 \sfcode‘.=3000
make right parentheses “transparent” to the space factor, while tripling the stretcha-
bility after periods. The \frenchspacing operation resets \sfcode‘. to
1000.»


-- 
If at first you don't succeed, you must be a programmer.

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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Mikael Sundqvist]

Hi,

It is extremely difficult to follow what you write.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Carlos <linguafalsa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If I have the following, with these linebreaks as in:
>
> {\par But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
> influenced by a single person. {\obeylines Once the initial design is
> complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
> with many different viewpoints undertake their own
> experiments.}}

Is that the complete document? What do you have in mind with obeying
lines in the middle of a paragraph?

>
> and opted to load another font, other than cmr that is, a \frenchspacing
> approach wouldn't be further required

cmr? Not used in ConTeXt for a long time. (And what does the changing
of font have to do with this?)

>
> Bear with me here, in the current state, for example, and as long as say
>
> «…person.␣{\obeylines Once the initial is
> complete…» though feasible enough, leaves any prior \␣ at the mercy of
> whatever fontsize and/or set width happens to be. And this is just plain
> wrong.

What?

>
> Likewise, if a word sequence such as \TeX\ occurs as in {\ss The separation
> of any of these four components would have hurt \TeX\ significantly. }

Likewise what?

>
> The next sentence: «If I had not participated…» does not get any
> \nofrenchspacing which is equally and doubly problematic. It shows lack of
> consistency. And this ought not to be an ‹either› ‹or› scenario. But
> rather, an and conjunctional construct. It fails both ways.

Consistency of what? Spacing? Where? Can you make a complete example?
(You can show space amount with \showmakup[space])

>
> Furthermore, with the same token, if width is specified with a
>
> \setuplayout[width=15cm]

OK, here the game changes...

>
> Anything less than 12.895pt, especifically for that use case, wwould
> throw anything, particularly control sequences such as \TeX\ out
> of whack, and conversely, once a value of that very pt or pica or
> whatever is lowered, it brings that nonfrenchspacing right back on.
> And if width increments occur, then it follows that any control sequence kerning
> also gets thrown off as a result.

Of course the width influences the spacing. That is how the paragraph
builder works (and really, why it often looks good).

>
> It seems so far, that with lmtx, any standalone file, document, minimal
> working example that does not load cmr at the outset does not produce
> an acceptable outcome either. By saying acceptable I meant to say it
> namely from a typographical point of view. Nothing else.

I have no clue of what you talk about here.

>
> from the TeXbook 380-381
>
> «\obeylines doesn’t say ‘\def^^M{\par}’, so we must make any desired changes to
> \par before invoking \obeylines. (2) The \uncatcodespecials operation changes a
> space to category 12; but the \tt font has the character ‘␣’ in the ⟨space⟩ position, so we
> don’t really want ␣12 . (3) The \obeyspaces macro in Appendix B merely changes the
> ⟨space⟩ character to category 13; active character ␣13 has been defined to be the same
> as \space, a macro that expands to ␣10 . This is usually what is desired; for example,
> it means that spaces in constructions like ‘\hbox to 10 pt {...}’ won’t cause any
> trouble. But in our application it has an undesirable effect, because it produces spaces
> that are affected by the space factor. To defeat this feature, it’s necessary either to
> say \frenchspacing or to redefine ␣13 to be the same as \␣. The latter alternative is
> better, because the former will discard spaces at the beginning of each
> line.»
>
> «In theory, this seems like it ought to work; but in practice, it fails in two ways. One
> rather obvious failure—at least, it becomes obvious when the macro is tested—is that
> all the empty lines of the file are omitted. The reason is that the \par command at the
> end of an empty line doesn’t start up a new paragraph, because it occurs in vertical
> mode. The other failure is not as obvious, because it occurs much less often: The \tt
> fonts contain ligatures for Spanish punctuation, so the sequences ?‘ and !‘ will be
> printed as ¿ and ¡ respectively. Both of these defects can be cured by inserting
>
> and
>
>
> «When INITEX creates a brand new TEX, all characters have a space factor code
> of 1000, except that the uppercase letters ‘A’ through ‘Z’ have code 999. (This
> slight difference is what makes punctuation act differently after an uppercase letter; do
> you see why?) Plain TEX redefines a few of these codes using the \sfcode primitive,
> which is similar to \catcode (see Appendix B); for example, the instructions
> \sfcode‘)=0
>  \sfcode‘.=3000
> make right parentheses “transparent” to the space factor, while tripling the stretcha-
> bility after periods. The \frenchspacing operation resets \sfcode‘. to
> 1000.»

Everything you cite above is very likely true for plain TeX, but maybe
not for ConTeXt...

/Mikael

PS I do not think that your emails come out well. In order to get
help, I would suggest a strategy that not so much only sounds as
nagging and complaints. One thing that has been lacking is a clear
explanation of what you really try to achieve.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Carlos]

On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 06:20:29PM +0200, Mikael Sundqvist wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It is extremely difficult to follow what you write.
> 
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Carlos <linguafalsa@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > If I have the following, with these linebreaks as in:
> >
> > {\par But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
> > influenced by a single person. {\obeylines Once the initial design is
> > complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
> > with many different viewpoints undertake their own
> > experiments.}}
> 
> Is that the complete document? What do you have in mind with obeying
> lines in the middle of a paragraph?

it's the only possible way off the top of my head to circumvent body
font size with a given width, while keeping both: the kern of \TeX\
and the double spacing that lmtx injects following a sentence,
within sanity check, hence the nonfrenchspacing

The separation of any of these four components would have hurt T
 E X sig­
nificantly.
 If I had not participated fully in all these activities, literally
hundreds of improvements would never have been made, because I would
never have thought of them or perceived why they were important.
But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly influenced
by a single person. Once the initial design is


> 
> >
> > and opted to load another font, other than cmr that is, a \frenchspacing
> > approach wouldn't be further required
> 
> cmr? Not used in ConTeXt for a long time. (And what does the changing
> of font have to do with this?)

latin modern.
> 
> >
> > Bear with me here, in the current state, for example, and as long as say
> >
> > «…person.␣{\obeylines Once the initial is
> > complete…» though feasible enough, leaves any prior \␣ at the mercy of
> > whatever fontsize and/or set width happens to be. And this is just plain
> > wrong.
> 
> What?
> 
> >
> > Likewise, if a word sequence such as \TeX\ occurs as in {\ss The separation
> > of any of these four components would have hurt \TeX\ significantly. }
> 
> Likewise what?
> 
> >
> > The next sentence: «If I had not participated…» does not get any
> > \nofrenchspacing which is equally and doubly problematic. It shows lack of
> > consistency. And this ought not to be an ‹either› ‹or› scenario. But
> > rather, an and conjunctional construct. It fails both ways.
> 
> Consistency of what? Spacing? Where? Can you make a complete example?
> (You can show space amount with \showmakup[space])

yes. and showmakeup displays: .SP:10.945 If

rather than for example with: .SP:5.235
 OnceSP:3.926
 theSP:3.926
 initial SP:3.926
 designSP:3.926
 is 

and 

:3.586
 THK:-1.853
 H__E
 X
 HK:-1.390
 SP:3.586
 sig­RH:0.000
 IR:0.000
 RS:0.000
LH:0.000
 H__nificantlyLS:0.000BS:6.565


and here's your example:

\setuplayout[width=16cm]
\showmakeup

\starttext

Thus, I came to the conclusion that the designer of a new
system must not only be the implementer and first
large||scale user; the designer should also write the first
user manual.
\setupbodyfont[12.895pt]

{\ss The separation of any of these four components would have
hurt \TeX\ significantly. If I had not participated fully in
all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements
would never have been made, because I would never have
thought of them or perceived why they were important.\par}

Do you see that width of 16cm? That's what throws it off

but then again, anything less than that 12.895 font size, throws off the
 kern of \TeX\ too. 

As a result, I can't use any lower font size, before everything,
including kerning of \TeX\ and spaces after sentences, are completely
off.

I mean. obeylines serve a better function than having extra spaces all
over with no end in sight, really. 
> 
> >
> > Furthermore, with the same token, if width is specified with a
> >
> > \setuplayout[width=15cm]
> 
> OK, here the game changes...
> 
> >
> > Anything less than 12.895pt, especifically for that use case, wwould
> > throw anything, particularly control sequences such as \TeX\ out
> > of whack, and conversely, once a value of that very pt or pica or
> > whatever is lowered, it brings that nonfrenchspacing right back on.
> > And if width increments occur, then it follows that any control sequence kerning
> > also gets thrown off as a result.
> 
> Of course the width influences the spacing. That is how the paragraph
> builder works (and really, why it often looks good).
> 
> >
> > It seems so far, that with lmtx, any standalone file, document, minimal
> > working example that does not load cmr at the outset does not produce
> > an acceptable outcome either. By saying acceptable I meant to say it
> > namely from a typographical point of view. Nothing else.
> 
> I have no clue of what you talk about here.
> 
> >
> > from the TeXbook 380-381
> >
> > «\obeylines doesn’t say ‘\def^^M{\par}’, so we must make any desired changes to
> > \par before invoking \obeylines. (2) The \uncatcodespecials operation changes a
> > space to category 12; but the \tt font has the character ‘␣’ in the ⟨space⟩ position, so we
> > don’t really want ␣12 . (3) The \obeyspaces macro in Appendix B merely changes the
> > ⟨space⟩ character to category 13; active character ␣13 has been defined to be the same
> > as \space, a macro that expands to ␣10 . This is usually what is desired; for example,
> > it means that spaces in constructions like ‘\hbox to 10 pt {...}’ won’t cause any
> > trouble. But in our application it has an undesirable effect, because it produces spaces
> > that are affected by the space factor. To defeat this feature, it’s necessary either to
> > say \frenchspacing or to redefine ␣13 to be the same as \␣. The latter alternative is
> > better, because the former will discard spaces at the beginning of each
> > line.»
> >
> > «In theory, this seems like it ought to work; but in practice, it fails in two ways. One
> > rather obvious failure—at least, it becomes obvious when the macro is tested—is that
> > all the empty lines of the file are omitted. The reason is that the \par command at the
> > end of an empty line doesn’t start up a new paragraph, because it occurs in vertical
> > mode. The other failure is not as obvious, because it occurs much less often: The \tt
> > fonts contain ligatures for Spanish punctuation, so the sequences ?‘ and !‘ will be
> > printed as ¿ and ¡ respectively. Both of these defects can be cured by inserting
> >
> > and
> >
> >
> > «When INITEX creates a brand new TEX, all characters have a space factor code
> > of 1000, except that the uppercase letters ‘A’ through ‘Z’ have code 999. (This
> > slight difference is what makes punctuation act differently after an uppercase letter; do
> > you see why?) Plain TEX redefines a few of these codes using the \sfcode primitive,
> > which is similar to \catcode (see Appendix B); for example, the instructions
> > \sfcode‘)=0
> >  \sfcode‘.=3000
> > make right parentheses “transparent” to the space factor, while tripling the stretcha-
> > bility after periods. The \frenchspacing operation resets \sfcode‘. to
> > 1000.»
> 
> Everything you cite above is very likely true for plain TeX, but maybe
> not for ConTeXt...
> 
> /Mikael
> 
> PS I do not think that your emails come out well. In order to get
> help, I would suggest a strategy that not so much only sounds as
> nagging and complaints. One thing that has been lacking is a clear
> explanation of what you really try to achieve.
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
You have a tendency to feel you are superior to most computers.

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
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wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Carlos]

On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 06:20:29PM +0200, Mikael Sundqvist wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It is extremely difficult to follow what you write.
> 
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Carlos <linguafalsa@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > If I have the following, with these linebreaks as in:
> >
> > {\par But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
> > influenced by a single person. {\obeylines Once the initial design is
> > complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
> > with many different viewpoints undertake their own
> > experiments.}}
> 
> Is that the complete document? What do you have in mind with obeying
> lines in the middle of a paragraph?
> 
> >
> > and opted to load another font, other than cmr that is, a \frenchspacing
> > approach wouldn't be further required
> 
> cmr? Not used in ConTeXt for a long time. (And what does the changing
> of font have to do with this?)
> 
> >
> > Bear with me here, in the current state, for example, and as long as say
> >
> > «…person.␣{\obeylines Once the initial is
> > complete…» though feasible enough, leaves any prior \␣ at the mercy of
> > whatever fontsize and/or set width happens to be. And this is just plain
> > wrong.
> 
> What?
> 
> >
> > Likewise, if a word sequence such as \TeX\ occurs as in {\ss The separation
> > of any of these four components would have hurt \TeX\ significantly. }
> 
> Likewise what?
> 
> >
> > The next sentence: «If I had not participated…» does not get any
> > \nofrenchspacing which is equally and doubly problematic. It shows lack of
> > consistency. And this ought not to be an ‹either› ‹or› scenario. But
> > rather, an and conjunctional construct. It fails both ways.
> 
> Consistency of what? Spacing? Where? Can you make a complete example?
> (You can show space amount with \showmakup[space])
> 
> >
> > Furthermore, with the same token, if width is specified with a
> >
> > \setuplayout[width=15cm]
> 
> OK, here the game changes...
> 
> >
> > Anything less than 12.895pt, especifically for that use case, wwould
> > throw anything, particularly control sequences such as \TeX\ out
> > of whack, and conversely, once a value of that very pt or pica or
> > whatever is lowered, it brings that nonfrenchspacing right back on.
> > And if width increments occur, then it follows that any control sequence kerning
> > also gets thrown off as a result.
> 
> Of course the width influences the spacing. That is how the paragraph
> builder works (and really, why it often looks good).
> 
> >
> > It seems so far, that with lmtx, any standalone file, document, minimal
> > working example that does not load cmr at the outset does not produce
> > an acceptable outcome either. By saying acceptable I meant to say it
> > namely from a typographical point of view. Nothing else.
> 
> I have no clue of what you talk about here.
> 
> >
> > from the TeXbook 380-381
> >
> > «\obeylines doesn’t say ‘\def^^M{\par}’, so we must make any desired changes to
> > \par before invoking \obeylines. (2) The \uncatcodespecials operation changes a
> > space to category 12; but the \tt font has the character ‘␣’ in the ⟨space⟩ position, so we
> > don’t really want ␣12 . (3) The \obeyspaces macro in Appendix B merely changes the
> > ⟨space⟩ character to category 13; active character ␣13 has been defined to be the same
> > as \space, a macro that expands to ␣10 . This is usually what is desired; for example,
> > it means that spaces in constructions like ‘\hbox to 10 pt {...}’ won’t cause any
> > trouble. But in our application it has an undesirable effect, because it produces spaces
> > that are affected by the space factor. To defeat this feature, it’s necessary either to
> > say \frenchspacing or to redefine ␣13 to be the same as \␣. The latter alternative is
> > better, because the former will discard spaces at the beginning of each
> > line.»
> >
> > «In theory, this seems like it ought to work; but in practice, it fails in two ways. One
> > rather obvious failure—at least, it becomes obvious when the macro is tested—is that
> > all the empty lines of the file are omitted. The reason is that the \par command at the
> > end of an empty line doesn’t start up a new paragraph, because it occurs in vertical
> > mode. The other failure is not as obvious, because it occurs much less often: The \tt
> > fonts contain ligatures for Spanish punctuation, so the sequences ?‘ and !‘ will be
> > printed as ¿ and ¡ respectively. Both of these defects can be cured by inserting
> >
> > and
> >
> >
> > «When INITEX creates a brand new TEX, all characters have a space factor code
> > of 1000, except that the uppercase letters ‘A’ through ‘Z’ have code 999. (This
> > slight difference is what makes punctuation act differently after an uppercase letter; do
> > you see why?) Plain TEX redefines a few of these codes using the \sfcode primitive,
> > which is similar to \catcode (see Appendix B); for example, the instructions
> > \sfcode‘)=0
> >  \sfcode‘.=3000
> > make right parentheses “transparent” to the space factor, while tripling the stretcha-
> > bility after periods. The \frenchspacing operation resets \sfcode‘. to
> > 1000.»
> 
> Everything you cite above is very likely true for plain TeX, but maybe
> not for ConTeXt...
> 
> /Mikael
> 
> PS I do not think that your emails come out well. In order to get
> help, I would suggest a strategy that not so much only sounds as
> nagging and complaints. One thing that has been lacking is a clear
> explanation of what you really try to achieve.

Mikael, I'll surely heed your advice with that strategy. It's almost
impossible to have a decent looking pdf with lmtx

kerning of a simple word sequence is off, along with spurious spaces
interjected between sentences. What gives?

And with luatex frozen for better or for worse, I better stick to plain
tex

-- 
Thus spake the master programmer:
	"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless."
		-- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Carlos]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7006 bytes --]

On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 02:26:55PM -0400, Carlos wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 06:20:29PM +0200, Mikael Sundqvist wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > It is extremely difficult to follow what you write.
> > 
> > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Carlos <linguafalsa@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > If I have the following, with these linebreaks as in:
> > >
> > > {\par But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
> > > influenced by a single person. {\obeylines Once the initial design is
> > > complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
> > > with many different viewpoints undertake their own
> > > experiments.}}
> > 
> > Is that the complete document? What do you have in mind with obeying
> > lines in the middle of a paragraph?
> > 
> > >
> > > and opted to load another font, other than cmr that is, a \frenchspacing
> > > approach wouldn't be further required
> > 
> > cmr? Not used in ConTeXt for a long time. (And what does the changing
> > of font have to do with this?)
> > 
> > >
> > > Bear with me here, in the current state, for example, and as long as say
> > >
> > > «…person.␣{\obeylines Once the initial is
> > > complete…» though feasible enough, leaves any prior \␣ at the mercy of
> > > whatever fontsize and/or set width happens to be. And this is just plain
> > > wrong.
> > 
> > What?
> > 
> > >
> > > Likewise, if a word sequence such as \TeX\ occurs as in {\ss The separation
> > > of any of these four components would have hurt \TeX\ significantly. }
> > 
> > Likewise what?
> > 
> > >
> > > The next sentence: «If I had not participated…» does not get any
> > > \nofrenchspacing which is equally and doubly problematic. It shows lack of
> > > consistency. And this ought not to be an ‹either› ‹or› scenario. But
> > > rather, an and conjunctional construct. It fails both ways.
> > 
> > Consistency of what? Spacing? Where? Can you make a complete example?
> > (You can show space amount with \showmakup[space])
> > 
> > >
> > > Furthermore, with the same token, if width is specified with a
> > >
> > > \setuplayout[width=15cm]
> > 
> > OK, here the game changes...
> > 
> > >
> > > Anything less than 12.895pt, especifically for that use case, wwould
> > > throw anything, particularly control sequences such as \TeX\ out
> > > of whack, and conversely, once a value of that very pt or pica or
> > > whatever is lowered, it brings that nonfrenchspacing right back on.
> > > And if width increments occur, then it follows that any control sequence kerning
> > > also gets thrown off as a result.
> > 
> > Of course the width influences the spacing. That is how the paragraph
> > builder works (and really, why it often looks good).
> > 
> > >
> > > It seems so far, that with lmtx, any standalone file, document, minimal
> > > working example that does not load cmr at the outset does not produce
> > > an acceptable outcome either. By saying acceptable I meant to say it
> > > namely from a typographical point of view. Nothing else.
> > 
> > I have no clue of what you talk about here.
> > 
> > >
> > > from the TeXbook 380-381
> > >
> > > «\obeylines doesn’t say ‘\def^^M{\par}’, so we must make any desired changes to
> > > \par before invoking \obeylines. (2) The \uncatcodespecials operation changes a
> > > space to category 12; but the \tt font has the character ‘␣’ in the ⟨space⟩ position, so we
> > > don’t really want ␣12 . (3) The \obeyspaces macro in Appendix B merely changes the
> > > ⟨space⟩ character to category 13; active character ␣13 has been defined to be the same
> > > as \space, a macro that expands to ␣10 . This is usually what is desired; for example,
> > > it means that spaces in constructions like ‘\hbox to 10 pt {...}’ won’t cause any
> > > trouble. But in our application it has an undesirable effect, because it produces spaces
> > > that are affected by the space factor. To defeat this feature, it’s necessary either to
> > > say \frenchspacing or to redefine ␣13 to be the same as \␣. The latter alternative is
> > > better, because the former will discard spaces at the beginning of each
> > > line.»
> > >
> > > «In theory, this seems like it ought to work; but in practice, it fails in two ways. One
> > > rather obvious failure—at least, it becomes obvious when the macro is tested—is that
> > > all the empty lines of the file are omitted. The reason is that the \par command at the
> > > end of an empty line doesn’t start up a new paragraph, because it occurs in vertical
> > > mode. The other failure is not as obvious, because it occurs much less often: The \tt
> > > fonts contain ligatures for Spanish punctuation, so the sequences ?‘ and !‘ will be
> > > printed as ¿ and ¡ respectively. Both of these defects can be cured by inserting
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > >
> > > «When INITEX creates a brand new TEX, all characters have a space factor code
> > > of 1000, except that the uppercase letters ‘A’ through ‘Z’ have code 999. (This
> > > slight difference is what makes punctuation act differently after an uppercase letter; do
> > > you see why?) Plain TEX redefines a few of these codes using the \sfcode primitive,
> > > which is similar to \catcode (see Appendix B); for example, the instructions
> > > \sfcode‘)=0
> > >  \sfcode‘.=3000
> > > make right parentheses “transparent” to the space factor, while tripling the stretcha-
> > > bility after periods. The \frenchspacing operation resets \sfcode‘. to
> > > 1000.»
> > 
> > Everything you cite above is very likely true for plain TeX, but maybe
> > not for ConTeXt...
> > 
> > /Mikael
> > 
> > PS I do not think that your emails come out well. In order to get
> > help, I would suggest a strategy that not so much only sounds as
> > nagging and complaints. One thing that has been lacking is a clear
> > explanation of what you really try to achieve.
> 
> Mikael, I'll surely heed your advice with that strategy. It's almost
> impossible to have a decent looking pdf with lmtx
> 
> kerning of a simple word sequence is off, along with spurious spaces
> interjected between sentences. What gives?
> 
> And with luatex frozen for better or for worse, I better stick to plain
> tex
> 
> -- 
> Thus spake the master programmer:
> 	"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless."
> 		-- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
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		-- Alan Kay, commenting on Apollos

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[NTG-context] unsubscribe

[Thomas Floeren via ntg-context]

> On 18. Aug 2023, at 20:17, Carlos <linguafalsa@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 06:20:29PM +0200, Mikael Sundqvist wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> It is extremely difficult to follow what you write.
>> 
>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Carlos <linguafalsa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> If I have the following, with these linebreaks as in:
>>> 
>>> {\par But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
>>> influenced by a single person. {\obeylines Once the initial design is
>>> complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
>>> with many different viewpoints undertake their own
>>> experiments.}}
>> 
>> Is that the complete document? What do you have in mind with obeying
>> lines in the middle of a paragraph?
> 
> it's the only possible way off the top of my head to circumvent body
> font size with a given width, while keeping both: the kern of \TeX\
> and the double spacing that lmtx injects following a sentence,
> within sanity check, hence the nonfrenchspacing
> 
> The separation of any of these four components would have hurt T
> E X sig­
> nificantly.
> If I had not participated fully in all these activities, literally
> hundreds of improvements would never have been made, because I would
> never have thought of them or perceived why they were important.
> But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly influenced
> by a single person. Once the initial design is
> 
> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> and opted to load another font, other than cmr that is, a \frenchspacing
>>> approach wouldn't be further required
>> 
>> cmr? Not used in ConTeXt for a long time. (And what does the changing
>> of font have to do with this?)
> 
> latin modern.
>> 
>>> 
>>> Bear with me here, in the current state, for example, and as long as say
>>> 
>>> «…person.␣{\obeylines Once the initial is
>>> complete…» though feasible enough, leaves any prior \␣ at the mercy of
>>> whatever fontsize and/or set width happens to be. And this is just plain
>>> wrong.
>> 
>> What?
>> 
>>> 
>>> Likewise, if a word sequence such as \TeX\ occurs as in {\ss The separation
>>> of any of these four components would have hurt \TeX\ significantly. }
>> 
>> Likewise what?
>> 
>>> 
>>> The next sentence: «If I had not participated…» does not get any
>>> \nofrenchspacing which is equally and doubly problematic. It shows lack of
>>> consistency. And this ought not to be an ‹either› ‹or› scenario. But
>>> rather, an and conjunctional construct. It fails both ways.
>> 
>> Consistency of what? Spacing? Where? Can you make a complete example?
>> (You can show space amount with \showmakup[space])
> 
> yes. and showmakeup displays: .SP:10.945 If
> 
> rather than for example with: .SP:5.235
> OnceSP:3.926
> theSP:3.926
> initial SP:3.926
> designSP:3.926
> is 
> 
> and 
> 
> :3.586
> THK:-1.853
> H__E
> X
> HK:-1.390
> SP:3.586
> sig­RH:0.000
> IR:0.000
> RS:0.000
> LH:0.000
> H__nificantlyLS:0.000BS:6.565
> 
> 
> and here's your example:
> 
> \setuplayout[width=16cm]
> \showmakeup
> 
> \starttext
> 
> Thus, I came to the conclusion that the designer of a new
> system must not only be the implementer and first
> large||scale user; the designer should also write the first
> user manual.
> \setupbodyfont[12.895pt]
> 
> {\ss The separation of any of these four components would have
> hurt \TeX\ significantly. If I had not participated fully in
> all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements
> would never have been made, because I would never have
> thought of them or perceived why they were important.\par}
> 
> Do you see that width of 16cm? That's what throws it off
> 
> but then again, anything less than that 12.895 font size, throws off the
> kern of \TeX\ too. 
> 
> As a result, I can't use any lower font size, before everything,
> including kerning of \TeX\ and spaces after sentences, are completely
> off.
> 
> I mean. obeylines serve a better function than having extra spaces all
> over with no end in sight, really. 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Furthermore, with the same token, if width is specified with a
>>> 
>>> \setuplayout[width=15cm]
>> 
>> OK, here the game changes...
>> 
>>> 
>>> Anything less than 12.895pt, especifically for that use case, wwould
>>> throw anything, particularly control sequences such as \TeX\ out
>>> of whack, and conversely, once a value of that very pt or pica or
>>> whatever is lowered, it brings that nonfrenchspacing right back on.
>>> And if width increments occur, then it follows that any control sequence kerning
>>> also gets thrown off as a result.
>> 
>> Of course the width influences the spacing. That is how the paragraph
>> builder works (and really, why it often looks good).
>> 
>>> 
>>> It seems so far, that with lmtx, any standalone file, document, minimal
>>> working example that does not load cmr at the outset does not produce
>>> an acceptable outcome either. By saying acceptable I meant to say it
>>> namely from a typographical point of view. Nothing else.
>> 
>> I have no clue of what you talk about here.
>> 
>>> 
>>> from the TeXbook 380-381
>>> 
>>> «\obeylines doesn’t say ‘\def^^M{\par}’, so we must make any desired changes to
>>> \par before invoking \obeylines. (2) The \uncatcodespecials operation changes a
>>> space to category 12; but the \tt font has the character ‘␣’ in the ⟨space⟩ position, so we
>>> don’t really want ␣12 . (3) The \obeyspaces macro in Appendix B merely changes the
>>> ⟨space⟩ character to category 13; active character ␣13 has been defined to be the same
>>> as \space, a macro that expands to ␣10 . This is usually what is desired; for example,
>>> it means that spaces in constructions like ‘\hbox to 10 pt {...}’ won’t cause any
>>> trouble. But in our application it has an undesirable effect, because it produces spaces
>>> that are affected by the space factor. To defeat this feature, it’s necessary either to
>>> say \frenchspacing or to redefine ␣13 to be the same as \␣. The latter alternative is
>>> better, because the former will discard spaces at the beginning of each
>>> line.»
>>> 
>>> «In theory, this seems like it ought to work; but in practice, it fails in two ways. One
>>> rather obvious failure—at least, it becomes obvious when the macro is tested—is that
>>> all the empty lines of the file are omitted. The reason is that the \par command at the
>>> end of an empty line doesn’t start up a new paragraph, because it occurs in vertical
>>> mode. The other failure is not as obvious, because it occurs much less often: The \tt
>>> fonts contain ligatures for Spanish punctuation, so the sequences ?‘ and !‘ will be
>>> printed as ¿ and ¡ respectively. Both of these defects can be cured by inserting
>>> 
>>> and
>>> 
>>> 
>>> «When INITEX creates a brand new TEX, all characters have a space factor code
>>> of 1000, except that the uppercase letters ‘A’ through ‘Z’ have code 999. (This
>>> slight difference is what makes punctuation act differently after an uppercase letter; do
>>> you see why?) Plain TEX redefines a few of these codes using the \sfcode primitive,
>>> which is similar to \catcode (see Appendix B); for example, the instructions
>>> \sfcode‘)=0
>>> \sfcode‘.=3000
>>> make right parentheses “transparent” to the space factor, while tripling the stretcha-
>>> bility after periods. The \frenchspacing operation resets \sfcode‘. to
>>> 1000.»
>> 
>> Everything you cite above is very likely true for plain TeX, but maybe
>> not for ConTeXt...
>> 
>> /Mikael
>> 
>> PS I do not think that your emails come out well. In order to get
>> help, I would suggest a strategy that not so much only sounds as
>> nagging and complaints. One thing that has been lacking is a clear
>> explanation of what you really try to achieve.
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> -- 
> You have a tendency to feel you are superior to most computers.
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Wolfgang Schuster]

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Hi,

1. Learn to two provide a working minimal example which shows the problem.

2. The example below results in a correct output for \TEX.

\setuplayout[width=16cm]
\showmakeup

\starttext

Thus, I came to the conclusion that the designer of a new
system must not only be the implementer and first
large||scale user; the designer should also write the first
user manual.

\setupbodyfont[12.895pt]

{\ss The separation of any of these four components would have
hurt \TeX\ significantly. If I had not participated fully in
all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements
would never have been made, because I would never have
thought of them or perceived why they were important.\par}

\stoptext

Wolfgang


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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Hans Hagen]

On 8/18/2023 8:48 PM, Carlos wrote:

>> And with luatex frozen for better or for worse, I better stick to plain
>> tex
not sure what frozen has to do with it ... it will be around and 
maintained forever but no fundamental new functionality will be added

that said: luametatex is of not much use when you use plain (or whatever 
else)

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Carlos]

On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 08:58:58PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 1. Learn to two provide a working minimal example which shows the problem.
> 

Did the minimal example I provided earlier wasn't enough for you? 

Besides, You know perfectly well that \stoptext is not even necessary,
superflous; it's not required to compile any context flavor file for
ages now.

So I suggest you to save those keystrokes for other tasks. Not those,
petty petty betty. I know it's hard to teach an ol' dog new tricks,
but… it's worth to try! right?

Also, Did you see the attachment I sent prior to your message?  

> 2. The example below results in a correct output for \TEX.
> 

Not in my end with any font other than latin modern

> \setuplayout[width=16cm]
> \showmakeup
> 
> \starttext
> 
> Thus, I came to the conclusion that the designer of a new
> system must not only be the implementer and first
> large||scale user; the designer should also write the first
> user manual.
> 
> \setupbodyfont[12.895pt]
> 
> {\ss The separation of any of these four components would have
> hurt \TeX\ significantly. If I had not participated fully in
> all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements
> would never have been made, because I would never have
> thought of them or perceived why they were important.\par}
> 
> \stoptext
> 
> Wolfgang
> 


> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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-- 
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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Mikael Sundqvist]

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Hi,

On Sat, Aug 19, 2023 at 3:36 PM Carlos <linguafalsa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 08:58:58PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > 1. Learn to two provide a working minimal example which shows the problem.
> >
>
> Did the minimal example I provided earlier wasn't enough for you?
>
> Besides, You know perfectly well that \stoptext is not even necessary,
> superflous; it's not required to compile any context flavor file for
> ages now.
>
> So I suggest you to save those keystrokes for other tasks. Not those,
> petty petty betty. I know it's hard to teach an ol' dog new tricks,
> but… it's worth to try! right?
>
> Also, Did you see the attachment I sent prior to your message?

Maybe your system is broken?

>
> > 2. The example below results in a correct output for \TEX.
> >
>
> Not in my end with any font other than latin modern

Here

\setupbodyfont[stixtwo]


\setuplayout[width=16cm]
\showmakeup

\starttext

Thus, I came to the conclusion that the designer of a new
system must not only be the implementer and first
large||scale user; the designer should also write the first
user manual.
\setupbodyfont[12.895pt]

{\ss The separation of any of these four components would have
hurt \TeX\ significantly. If I had not participated fully in
all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements
would never have been made, because I would never have
thought of them or perceived why they were important.\par}

\stoptext

gives the attached. I also tried all other fonts I had, no problems.

/Mikael

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[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 495 bytes --]

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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Carlos schrieb am 19.08.2023 um 15:32:
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 08:58:58PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> 1. Learn to two provide a working minimal example which shows the problem.
>>
> Did the minimal example I provided earlier wasn't enough for you?
>
> Besides, You know perfectly well that \stoptext is not even necessary,
> superflous; it's not required to compile any context flavor file for
> ages now.
>
> So I suggest you to save those keystrokes for other tasks. Not those,
> petty petty betty. I know it's hard to teach an ol' dog new tricks,
> but… it's worth to try! right?

Please explain why this example (which is a valid ConTeXt document) works

%%%% begin example
\starttext

\starttext

\stoptext

\stoptext
%%%% end example

but this doesn't.

%%%% begin example
\starttext

\starttext
%%%% end example

Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Carlos]

On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 03:38:15PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Carlos schrieb am 19.08.2023 um 15:32:
> > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 08:58:58PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > 1. Learn to two provide a working minimal example which shows the problem.
> > > 
> > Did the minimal example I provided earlier wasn't enough for you?
> > 
> > Besides, You know perfectly well that \stoptext is not even necessary,
> > superflous; it's not required to compile any context flavor file for
> > ages now.
> > 
> > So I suggest you to save those keystrokes for other tasks. Not those,
> > petty petty betty. I know it's hard to teach an ol' dog new tricks,
> > but… it's worth to try! right?
> 
> Please explain why this example (which is a valid ConTeXt document) works
> 

Opening a group with \starttext makes no sense because there is nothing after \stoptext.

The possibility to nest \starttext is necessary when you \startproduct etc. where components can be be documents on its own and this means \startcomponent includes \starttext in its
definition.

> %%%% begin example
> \starttext
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \stoptext
> 
> \stoptext
> %%%% end example
> 
> but this doesn't.
> 
> %%%% begin example
> \starttext
> 
> \starttext
> %%%% end example
> 
> Wolfgang

Take a look at the command line when you process a file and you should see something like this:

As you can see the luatex engine processes the file cont-yes.mkiv and not your document which put as argument to context. Your document is just read by cont-yes.mkiv and at the end of the document ConTeXt inserts an extra \stoptext which is ignored when your document
is valid (equal number of \starttext and \stoptext).

Wolfgang. I do appreciate your emphasis and your input on all of this.
I do. I really do. But we can't go over this, over and over again. Do
you know who said the above? Not me. You. Do you know whose remarks
are those? Not mine.  Yours.

Replace cont-yes.mkiv with the newer equivalent. And you're right though. \starttext is not even needed most of the times. 

> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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> 
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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Carlos schrieb am 20.08.2023 um 17:51:
> On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 03:38:15PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>> Carlos schrieb am 19.08.2023 um 15:32:
>>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 08:58:58PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> 1. Learn to two provide a working minimal example which shows the problem.
>>>>
>>> Did the minimal example I provided earlier wasn't enough for you?
>>>
>>> Besides, You know perfectly well that \stoptext is not even necessary,
>>> superflous; it's not required to compile any context flavor file for
>>> ages now.
>>>
>>> So I suggest you to save those keystrokes for other tasks. Not those,
>>> petty petty betty. I know it's hard to teach an ol' dog new tricks,
>>> but… it's worth to try! right?
>> Please explain why this example (which is a valid ConTeXt document) works
>>
> Opening a group with \starttext makes no sense because there is nothing after \stoptext.
>
> The possibility to nest \starttext is necessary when you \startproduct etc. where components can be be documents on its own and this means \startcomponent includes \starttext in its
> definition.
>
>> %%%% begin example
>> \starttext
>>
>> \starttext
>>
>> \stoptext
>>
>> \stoptext
>> %%%% end example
>>
>> but this doesn't.
>>
>> %%%% begin example
>> \starttext
>>
>> \starttext
>> %%%% end example
>>
>> Wolfgang
> Take a look at the command line when you process a file and you should see something like this:
>
> As you can see the luatex engine processes the file cont-yes.mkiv and not your document which put as argument to context. Your document is just read by cont-yes.mkiv and at the end of the document ConTeXt inserts an extra \stoptext which is ignored when your document
> is valid (equal number of \starttext and \stoptext).
>
> Wolfgang. I do appreciate your emphasis and your input on all of this.
> I do. I really do. But we can't go over this, over and over again. Do
> you know who said the above? Not me. You. Do you know whose remarks
> are those? Not mine.  Yours.

Just because ConTeXt fixes your mistake doesn't mean you should abuse it 
and *no* user should learn from your example.

Each ConTeXt document should contain a starttext/stoptext  pair or 
equivalent commands (e.g. startdocument/stopdocument or 
startproduct/stopproduct).

> Replace cont-yes.mkiv with the newer equivalent. And you're right though. \starttext is not even needed most of the times.

And now it gets even worse, see 
https://meeting.contextgarden.net/2021/talks/2021-09-21/starttext.pdf 
why \starttext is necessary.

Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Hans Hagen]

On 8/20/2023 5:51 PM, Carlos wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 03:38:15PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>> Carlos schrieb am 19.08.2023 um 15:32:
>>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 08:58:58PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> 1. Learn to two provide a working minimal example which shows the problem.
>>>>
>>> Did the minimal example I provided earlier wasn't enough for you?
>>>
>>> Besides, You know perfectly well that \stoptext is not even necessary,
>>> superflous; it's not required to compile any context flavor file for
>>> ages now.
>>>
>>> So I suggest you to save those keystrokes for other tasks. Not those,
>>> petty petty betty. I know it's hard to teach an ol' dog new tricks,
>>> but… it's worth to try! right?
>>
>> Please explain why this example (which is a valid ConTeXt document) works
> 
> Opening a group with \starttext makes no sense because there is nothing after \stoptext.
> 
> The possibility to nest \starttext is necessary when you \startproduct etc. where components can be be documents on its own and this means \startcomponent includes \starttext in its
> definition.
> 
>> %%%% begin example
>> \starttext
>>
>> \starttext
>>
>> \stoptext
>>
>> \stoptext
>> %%%% end example
>>
>> but this doesn't.
>>
>> %%%% begin example
>> \starttext
>>
>> \starttext
>> %%%% end example
>>
>> Wolfgang
> 
> Take a look at the command line when you process a file and you should see something like this:
> 
> As you can see the luatex engine processes the file cont-yes.mkiv and not your document which put as argument to context. Your document is just read by cont-yes.mkiv and at the end of the document ConTeXt inserts an extra \stoptext which is ignored when your document
> is valid (equal number of \starttext and \stoptext).

The bonus \starttext is just there so that we can use \startTEXpage etc 
without wrapper and a second bonus is that it catches sloppy coding and 
if a user want to take a shortcut and save a handful of keystrokes it's 
fine for me but support converges to zero (unless one pays top money for 
the incovenience). There is only so much you can expect from volunteers.

> Wolfgang. I do appreciate your emphasis and your input on all of this.
> I do. I really do. But we can't go over this, over and over again. Do
> you know who said the above? Not me. You. Do you know whose remarks
> are those? Not mine.  Yours.
> 
> Replace cont-yes.mkiv with the newer equivalent. And you're right though. \starttext is not even needed most of the times.
Wolfgang tries to educate you ... starttext is the anchor for checking 
if a bodyfont has been defined and if not it kicks in some default.

Now with that said:

When Wolfgang asks / tells something because there is nothing in context 
that he doesn't know. And you can bet then he knowa more than you do 
about the internals, objectives and implementation. So, let me put it a 
bit stronger: if Wolfgang gives you an answer that you don't like, you 
should be very careful in your answering because there is very little 
change that he's wrong. To stress his position here: if he sends me a 
patch I can merge it in without testing it which (believe me) is a 
rather unique positin. From this you might conclude that I don't like 
your tone.

And with that out if the way:

When Mikael wonders if there might be something with your installation 
you should indeed sit down and wonder a bit if that could be the case 
because he is a pretty good tester who had been around for quite a 
while. So you can be sure that he tested it well and that he has a 
proper setup. Personally I'd be worried if someone doubts my installation.

Did you install from the garden, using the lmtx installer? Because that 
is the reference. Everything installed otherwise is the users problem.

Which brings me to this file read only thing you mention. If your font 
cache is not writable you migth end up with bad metrics indeed just 
because there are no font resources but that's not up to context to deal 
with.

Also, \␣ is a fixed space and has no glue so i keep wondering what  this 
brings to the picture,

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

Carlos,

 > On 8/20/2023 6:41 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>
> And now it gets even worse, see 
> https://meeting.contextgarden.net/2021/talks/2021-09-21/starttext.pdf 
> why \starttext is necessar
And watch how \startTEXpage is defined. It clearly explains why that 
works without.

Also watch how \TEX\ comes our without the space between T and E that 
occurs at yoru end.

And finally, appreciate the nice layout / setup of that presentation, 
which contradicts your (implcit and/or explicit) claims that lmtx is 
unusable.

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Carlos]

On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 06:41:42PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 8/20/2023 5:51 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 03:38:15PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> > > Carlos schrieb am 19.08.2023 um 15:32:
> > > > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 08:58:58PM +0200, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > 
> > > > > 1. Learn to two provide a working minimal example which shows the problem.
> > > > > 
> > > > Did the minimal example I provided earlier wasn't enough for you?
> > > > 
> > > > Besides, You know perfectly well that \stoptext is not even necessary,
> > > > superflous; it's not required to compile any context flavor file for
> > > > ages now.
> > > > 
> > > > So I suggest you to save those keystrokes for other tasks. Not those,
> > > > petty petty betty. I know it's hard to teach an ol' dog new tricks,
> > > > but… it's worth to try! right?
> > > 
> > > Please explain why this example (which is a valid ConTeXt document) works
> > 
> > Opening a group with \starttext makes no sense because there is nothing after \stoptext.
> > 
> > The possibility to nest \starttext is necessary when you \startproduct etc. where components can be be documents on its own and this means \startcomponent includes \starttext in its
> > definition.
> > 
> > > %%%% begin example
> > > \starttext
> > > 
> > > \starttext
> > > 
> > > \stoptext
> > > 
> > > \stoptext
> > > %%%% end example
> > > 
> > > but this doesn't.
> > > 
> > > %%%% begin example
> > > \starttext
> > > 
> > > \starttext
> > > %%%% end example
> > > 
> > > Wolfgang
> > 
> > Take a look at the command line when you process a file and you should see something like this:
> > 
> > As you can see the luatex engine processes the file cont-yes.mkiv and not your document which put as argument to context. Your document is just read by cont-yes.mkiv and at the end of the document ConTeXt inserts an extra \stoptext which is ignored when your document
> > is valid (equal number of \starttext and \stoptext).
> 
> The bonus \starttext is just there so that we can use \startTEXpage etc
> without wrapper and a second bonus is that it catches sloppy coding and if a
> user want to take a shortcut and save a handful of keystrokes it's fine for
> me but support converges to zero (unless one pays top money for the
> incovenience). There is only so much you can expect from volunteers.
> 

I remember now I read it somewhere before.

> > Wolfgang. I do appreciate your emphasis and your input on all of this.
> > I do. I really do. But we can't go over this, over and over again. Do
> > you know who said the above? Not me. You. Do you know whose remarks
> > are those? Not mine.  Yours.
> > 
> > Replace cont-yes.mkiv with the newer equivalent. And you're right though. \starttext is not even needed most of the times.
> Wolfgang tries to educate you ... starttext is the anchor for checking if a
> bodyfont has been defined and if not it kicks in some default.
> 
> Now with that said:
> 
> When Wolfgang asks / tells something because there is nothing in context
> that he doesn't know. And you can bet then he knowa more than you do about
> the internals, objectives and implementation. So, let me put it a bit
> stronger: if Wolfgang gives you an answer that you don't like, you should be
> very careful in your answering because there is very little change that he's
> wrong. To stress his position here: if he sends me a patch I can merge it in
> without testing it which (believe me) is a rather unique positin. From this
> you might conclude that I don't like your tone.

It has nothing to do with liking/disliking a tone. A simple document
does not require any \stoptext and I told Wolfgang about it.

> 
> And with that out if the way:
> 
> When Mikael wonders if there might be something with your installation you
> should indeed sit down and wonder a bit if that could be the case because he
> is a pretty good tester who had been around for quite a while. So you can be
> sure that he tested it well and that he has a proper setup. Personally I'd
> be worried if someone doubts my installation.

it has nothing to do with the installation. Different installations have
nothing to do with what the backend fails to do in the end. 

It's deceitful. And lying his ass off. At least that message from the
log, that is. That's the only thing that one can _deduce_ from it. 

> 
> Did you install from the garden, using the lmtx installer? Because that is
> the reference. Everything installed otherwise is the users problem.
> 
> Which brings me to this file read only thing you mention. If your font cache
> is not writable you migth end up with bad metrics indeed just because there
> are no font resources but that's not up to context to deal with.
> 
> Also, \␣ is a fixed space and has no glue so i keep wondering what  this
> brings to the picture,

I know it has no glue. Who said it has glue? So a kerning has glue? 

We have to out of necessity go back to point A then. The
message I was getting from the backend was that this was being taken
care of. How one is supposed to interpret it? How?


fuck this shit. 

> 
> Hans
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
All constants are variables.

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[NTG-context] Re: redefine space to be the same as \␣ similar to knuthian approach

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 8/21/23 14:22, Carlos wrote:
> 
> fuck this shit.
> 
The first reaction would of course be to respond in the same tone. I 
think it would be wrong.

You should be aware that to most of us, your messages sound like they 
come from a sociopath. Nothing in the subject we're talking about 
warrants this level of anger and emotion - these are just computer 
programs; the future of our world does not depend on redefining a 
typographical space. You may want to seek professional psychological help.

Thomas

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