characterspacing not always working in LMTX

characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Joseph]

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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Wolfgang Schuster]

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Joseph schrieb am 14.01.2020 um 22:58:
>
> Hello,
>
> With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) is 
> not applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some 
> parts of the text. Unfortunately so far I cannot provide a MWE so I am 
> wondering if there is a way to trace this to hopefully figure out what 
> the problem is.
>

You can enable tracing with

\enabletrackers[typesetters.spacing]

Wolfgang


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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Thomas Savary]

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Hello, dear list !

Joseph :
> With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) is not
> applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some parts of

Character-spacing for French punctuation marks is incorrect in MkIV anyway : 
the “thin” spaces are much too wide. I will write more about it when I have 
more time. I have just begun to lean ConTeXt. For the time being, I don’t use 
its automatic spacing for French punctuation, but real Unicode spaces such as 
U+202F (non breakable thin space, about 0.125 em, depending on the font).

By the way, thin spaces are not specific to French typography, historically 
speaking, since they seem to have been used everywhere in Europe for centuries 
— at least in England, Belgium, Germany and Italy (probably in the Netherlands 
too, I will check). In France and sometimes in England, thin spaces were often 
used before commas as well. I wonder why most countries stopped using them. 
Out of laziness ? :-)

Greetings,

Thomas Savary
1 le Grand-Plessis
F-85340 L’Île-d’Olonne
Tél. 06 22 82 61 34
https://correctionpro.fr/
https://compo85.fr/

mardi 14 janvier 2020, à 22:58:57 CET, Joseph a écrit :
> Hello,
> 
>  
> 
> With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) is not
> applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some parts of
> the text. Unfortunately so far I cannot provide a MWE so I am wondering if
> there is a way to trace this to hopefully figure out what the problem is.
> 
> Many thanks
> 
>  
> 
> Regards
> 
>  
> 
> Joseph


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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/14/2020 11:25 PM, Thomas Savary wrote:
> Hello, dear list !
> 
> Joseph :
> 
>  > With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) 
> is not
> 
>  > applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some 
> parts of
> 
> Character-spacing for French punctuation marks is incorrect in MkIV 
> anyway : the “thin” spaces are much too wide. I will write more about it 
> when I have more time. I have just begun to lean ConTeXt. For the time 
> being, I don’t use its automatic spacing for French punctuation, but 
> real Unicode spaces such as U+202F (non breakable thin space, about 
> 0.125 em, depending on the font).

keep in mind that we use values that were specified by french users ... 
however, as usual with language specific features, these can differ per 
user

anyway, it's configureable

> By the way, thin spaces are not specific to French typography, 
> historically speaking, since they seem to have been used everywhere in 
> Europe for centuries — at least in England, Belgium, Germany and Italy 
> (probably in the Netherlands too, I will check). In France and sometimes 
> in England, thin spaces were often used before commas as well. I wonder 
> why most countries stopped using them. Out of laziness ? :-)
never seen them in dutch ... i think not so much lazyness but side 
effect of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used 
to justify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blob

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/14/2020 10:58 PM, Joseph wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) is 
> not applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some 
> parts of the text. Unfortunately so far I cannot provide a MWE so I am 
> wondering if there is a way to trace this to hopefully figure out what 
> the problem is.

we really need an mwe ... as it's puzzling why lmtx is different (uses 
the same code so must be some side effect)

Hans



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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Taco Hoekwater]

> On 15 Jan 2020, at 10:15, Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> 
>> By the way, thin spaces are not specific to French typography, historically speaking, since they seem to have been used everywhere in Europe for centuries — at least in England, Belgium, Germany and Italy (probably in the Netherlands too, I will check). In France and sometimes in England, thin spaces were often used before commas as well. I wonder why most countries stopped using them. Out of laziness ? :-)
> never seen them in dutch ... i think not so much lazyness but side effect of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used to justify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blob

Dutch typesetting had some rules for thin spaces in a transition period from full spaces (early) to no spaces (modern).

Much of this change happened in the (late) 19th century, so I guess it had more to do with linotype/monotype than with modern digitisation.

Best wishes,
Taco

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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:29:35AM +0100, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Dutch typesetting had some rules for thin spaces in a transition period from full spaces (early) to no spaces (modern).
> 
> Much of this change happened in the (late) 19th century, so I guess it had more to do with linotype/monotype than with modern digitisation.

  I think it happened at about the same time for English.  Before that
it was pretty universal.  See https://archive.org/details/worksbenjaminfr06spargoog/page/n12
for just one example.

  (The thin space in that example is really thin! -- but it’s definitely
there)

	Best,

		Arthur
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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Thomas Savary]

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Hans :
> never seen them [thin spaces] in dutch ... 
Example from a book published in Haarlem, 1838, “Gedichten van Nicolaas Beets” 
— you will even see thin spaces before commas, like in France in the 17th-18th 
century.
https://books.google.fr/books?
id=s1BUAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

> i think not so much lazyness but side
> effect of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used
> to justify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blobs :
The first books where I saw all thin spaces disappear were printed in the USA in 
the 20th century, after 1910 but certainly before 1960, so before digital 
publishing, but I am no specialist of type history.

> keep in mind that we use values that were specified by french users ...
> however, as usual with language specific features, these can differ per
> user
I guess that they unfortunately were no typographers. It is true that there 
are at least two different schools on this subject. I will explain all that 
when I have a bit more time.

Greetings

Thomas Savary
1 le Grand-Plessis
F-85340 L’Île-d’Olonne
Tél. 06 22 82 61 34
https://compo85.fr/


mercredi 15 janvier 2020, à 10:15:45 CET, Hans Hagen a écrit :
> On 1/14/2020 11:25 PM, Thomas Savary wrote:
> > Hello, dear list !
> > 
> > Joseph :
> >  > With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation)
> > 
> > is not
> > 
> >  > applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some
> > 
> > parts of
> > 
> > Character-spacing for French punctuation marks is incorrect in MkIV
> > anyway : the “thin” spaces are much too wide. I will write more about it
> > when I have more time. I have just begun to lean ConTeXt. For the time
> > being, I don’t use its automatic spacing for French punctuation, but
> > real Unicode spaces such as U+202F (non breakable thin space, about
> > 0.125 em, depending on the font).
> 
> keep in mind that we use values that were specified by french users ...
> however, as usual with language specific features, these can differ per
> user
> 
> anyway, it's configureable
> 
> > By the way, thin spaces are not specific to French typography,
> > historically speaking, since they seem to have been used everywhere in
> > Europe for centuries — at least in England, Belgium, Germany and Italy
> > (probably in the Netherlands too, I will check). In France and sometimes
> > in England, thin spaces were often used before commas as well. I wonder
> > why most countries stopped using them. Out of laziness ? :-)
> 
> never seen them in dutch ... i think not so much lazyness but side
> effect of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used
> to justify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blob
> 
> Hans
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                            Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>                Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>         tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------


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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Thomas Savary]

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Arthur :
>   I think it happened at about the same time for English.  Before that
> it was pretty universal.  See
> https://archive.org/details/worksbenjaminfr06spargoog/page/n12 for just one
> example.
> 
>   (The thin space in that example is really thin! -- but it’s definitely
> there)

Exactly. And this is precisely the thin space still required in French 
publications. The main disagreement among French typographs (about twenty years 
ago, at least) was about the fixed vs relative width of this thin space : put 
in TeX’s terms, should it be proportional to the glue or to the font ?

I think I’d better write an article about this, with quotes and visual 
examples.

Greetings

Thomas Savary
1 le Grand-Plessis
F-85340 L’Île-d’Olonne
Tél. 06 22 82 61 34
https://compo85.fr/

mercredi 15 janvier 2020, à 13:02:00 CET, Arthur Reutenauer a écrit :
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:29:35AM +0100, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> > Dutch typesetting had some rules for thin spaces in a transition period
> > from full spaces (early) to no spaces (modern).
> > 
> > Much of this change happened in the (late) 19th century, so I guess it had
> > more to do with linotype/monotype than with modern digitisation.
>   I think it happened at about the same time for English.  Before that
> it was pretty universal.  See
> https://archive.org/details/worksbenjaminfr06spargoog/page/n12 for just one
> example.
> 
>   (The thin space in that example is really thin! -- but it’s definitely
> there)
> 
> 	Best,
> 
> 		Arthur
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> _______ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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> ____________________________________________________________________________
> _______


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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2020-01-15 um 16:10 schrieb Thomas Savary <compo85@correctionpro.fr>:
>  
> Exactly. And this is precisely the thin space still required in French publications. The main disagreement among French typographs (about twenty years ago, at least) was about the fixed vs relative width of this thin space : put in TeX’s terms, should it be proportional to the glue or to the font ?
>  
> I think I’d better write an article about this, with quotes and visual examples.

Since the current CG Journal is still "in progress", another article is welcome!

Best, Hraban

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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Thomas Savary]

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Hraban :
> Since the current CG Journal is still "in progress", another article is
> welcome!

Thank you for this offer. As I don’t like half-measures, I really want to do it 
well, so I’m going to need a lot of time to collect historical as well as 
recent examples, quotations, etc. and to write this article. Unfortunately, I 
am pretty busy right now and probably won’t have time to start before March.

Greetings

Thomas Savary
1 le Grand-Plessis
F-85340 L’Île-d’Olonne
Tél. 06 22 82 61 34
https://compo85.fr/

mercredi 15 janvier 2020, à 16:16:21 CET, Henning Hraban Ramm a écrit :
> > Am 2020-01-15 um 16:10 schrieb Thomas Savary <compo85@correctionpro.fr>:
> > 
> > Exactly. And this is precisely the thin space still required in French
> > publications. The main disagreement among French typographs (about twenty
> > years ago, at least) was about the fixed vs relative width of this thin
> > space : put in TeX’s terms, should it be proportional to the glue or to
> > the font ?
> > 
> > I think I’d better write an article about this, with quotes and visual
> > examples.
> Since the current CG Journal is still "in progress", another article is
> welcome!
> 
> Best, Hraban
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> _______ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage  :
> http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
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> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> _______


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Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2020-01-17 um 09:41 schrieb Thomas Savary <compo85@correctionpro.fr>:
> 
> Hraban :
> > Since the current CG Journal is still "in progress", another article is
> > welcome!
>  
> Thank you for this offer. As I don’t like half-measures, I really want to do it well, so I’m going to need a lot of time to collect historical as well as recent examples, quotations, etc. and to write this article. Unfortunately, I am pretty busy right now and probably won’t have time to start before March.

Then maybe prepare a talk for the next context meeting?

Looking at my/our progress with the journal and my calendar I guess it would be still in time if you deliver somewhen end of March.
(Mid March is Leipzig book fair, we’ll have a booth and I need to finish two books and our catalogue before; after the fair I must send out the new releases, and then’s DANTE meeting in Lübeck…)


Greetlings, Hraban
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