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From: bakul@bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX of choice these days?
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:56:46 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20170925005702.38377156E523@mail.bitblocks.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 25 Sep 2017 09:36:44 +1000." <alpine.BSF.2.21.1709250934460.89458@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 09:36:44 +1000 Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
Dave Horsfall writes:
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Bakul Shah wrote:
> 
> > There are just a few potential users of /proc and they were already 
> > using other facilities. plus /proc is an optional facility. All this 
> > conspired to make /proc less useful in FreeBSD. Unused code is in danger 
> > of being garbage collected in FreeBSD :-)
> 
> Whatever happened to the Unix philosophy of everything looking like a 
> file?  Adding more system calls is the Windoze (or perhaps Penguin) way of 
> doing things.

I am afraid people paid lip service to this but not much
changed in this regard at least in the BSD world.  Look at all
the new things done since V7. devfs came in freeBSD 5.0.
Other filesystems were for files or were added based on what
Linux did. "portal" fs was going to be added but I don't even
remember what the point of it was any more. Unionfs was far
more complicated than in plan9 (more useful but also mainly
for files). VFS itself is too storage file centric.

/proc came in too late and it only helped with processes.
sysctl allowed access to other kernel stuff as well.  ptrace &
grubbing around in kernel memory has existed from much earlier
time.

I think a few changes can make Unix much more plan9 like.
Things like: file descriptors are actually capabilities (or
handles, for short) and each process starts with a set of
handles and it can only reach those resources that its handles
allow. It can also gain new handles via operations on existing
handles. Right here you can see that a process is already
sandboxed. You don't need containers or jails! Next use
plan9's 9p or something like it. The point of "everything is a
file" is to provide a discipline -- as opposed providing an
open ended object or class based system.  Once you do that,
user level fiesystems are a hop, skip and a jump away. But
there would be no point in doing this unless you also revamp a
bunch of system utilities.



  parent reply	other threads:[~2017-09-25  0:56 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 154+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-09-20  0:12 Arthur Krewat
2017-09-20  0:26 ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-20  0:39 ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-20  1:03   ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2017-09-20 20:56     ` jason-tuhs
2017-09-23  9:17   ` Dario Niedermann
2017-09-23  9:36     ` Steve Mynott
2017-09-23 10:03       ` Dario Niedermann
2017-09-23 23:04         ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-24  0:11           ` Random832
2017-09-24  1:19             ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-24 13:46       ` Andy Kosela
2017-09-24 14:02         ` ron minnich
2017-09-24 14:06           ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-24 20:36             ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-24 21:38               ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-24 23:36                 ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-24 23:50                   ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-25  0:03                     ` Wesley Parish
2017-09-25 15:36                       ` Tony Finch
2017-09-26  0:42                         ` Wesley Parish
2017-09-26  9:54                           ` Tony Finch
2017-09-26 14:41                           ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-26 17:34                             ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-26 17:39                               ` Warner Losh
2017-09-26 18:26                                 ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-26 17:43                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-26 19:44                                 ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-26 23:22                             ` Wesley Parish
2017-09-25  0:51                     ` Charles Anthony
2017-09-25  0:36                   ` Dan Cross
2017-09-25  0:44                     ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-25  0:56                   ` Bakul Shah [this message]
2017-09-25 15:45                     ` Tony Finch
2017-09-25 16:14                       ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-25  7:41                   ` Andy Kosela
2017-09-25  7:43                     ` Cory Smelosky
2017-09-25 10:14                       ` Andy Kosela
2017-09-25  9:58                     ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-25 11:14                       ` Derek Fawcus
2017-09-25 11:48                       ` Andrew Warkentin
2017-09-24 15:26           ` Christian Barthel
2017-09-24 17:33             ` Clem Cole
2017-09-24 17:33           ` Clem Cole
2017-09-24 17:51             ` [TUHS] RFS was: " Arthur Krewat
2017-09-24 19:54               ` Clem Cole
2017-09-24 21:59                 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-24 22:08                 ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-24 23:52                   ` Clem Cole
2017-09-27  8:44                 ` arnold
2017-09-27 15:25                   ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-27 15:49                     ` arnold
2017-09-27 17:38                   ` Mantas Mikulėnas
2017-09-27 23:01                   ` Kevin Bowling
2017-09-27 23:11                     ` Clem Cole
2017-09-27 23:13                       ` Kevin Bowling
2017-09-28  0:39                         ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-28  3:19                           ` Theodore Ts'o
2017-09-28 13:45                             ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-28 17:12                               ` Steve Johnson
2017-09-28 17:58                                 ` [TUHS] Bill Joy was: Re: RFS Forrest, Jon
2017-09-28  0:54                         ` [TUHS] RFS was: Re: UNIX of choice these days? Dave Horsfall
2017-09-28  0:59                           ` William Pechter
2017-09-28 13:49                         ` arnold
2017-09-28 14:07                           ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-28 14:28                             ` arnold
2017-09-28 19:49                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-28 20:00                             ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-28 14:27                           ` Clem Cole
2017-09-28 22:08                             ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-28 22:20                               ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-29  2:23                                 ` Kevin Bowling
2017-09-29  8:59                                 ` Andreas Kusalananda Kähäri
2017-09-29 14:20                                   ` Clem Cole
2017-09-29 16:46                                   ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-29 17:02                                     ` Kurt H Maier
2017-09-29 17:27                                       ` Pete Wright
2017-09-29 18:11                                       ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-29 18:47                                     ` Andreas Kusalananda Kähäri
2017-09-29 15:22                                 ` George Ross
2017-09-29 18:40                                   ` Don Hopkins
2017-09-29 19:03                                     ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-29 21:24                                     ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-29 22:11                                       ` Don Hopkins
2017-09-29 22:21                                         ` Don Hopkins
2017-09-29 19:19                                 ` Dan Cross
2017-09-29 19:22                                   ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-29 20:52                                   ` Jon Forrest
2017-09-23 23:00     ` [TUHS] " Dave Horsfall
2017-09-26 22:00     ` Christian Groessler
2017-09-20  4:42 ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-20  8:31   ` Mutiny 
2017-09-20  9:15 ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-20 16:58   ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-20 17:05     ` Steve Nickolas
2017-09-20 17:53     ` Henry Bent
2017-09-20 18:12       ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-20 18:33         ` Brad Spencer
2017-09-20 19:20           ` Henry Bent
2017-09-20 19:37           ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-20 19:58             ` Jacob Ritorto
2017-09-20 22:29               ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-20 22:31                 ` Warner Losh
2017-09-20 12:52 ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-20 13:33 ` Nemo
2017-09-20 15:39 ` Clem Cole
2017-09-20 15:42 ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-20 16:58   ` Ian Zimmerman
2017-09-20 17:09     ` Jon Steinhart
2017-09-20 17:31     ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-20 22:40 ` Steve Simon
2017-09-20 22:51   ` Erik Berls
2017-09-20 23:37 ` Robert Brockway
2017-09-21  1:47 ` Derrik Walker v2.0
2017-09-21  3:54 ` Gregg Levine
2017-09-21 14:33 ` Nicholas Chappell
2017-09-21 16:38   ` Mutiny 
2017-09-21 16:42     ` gilbertmm
2017-09-21 18:30     ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-21 23:34     ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-25 10:36 ` Thomas Kellar
2017-09-21  2:28 Rudi Blom
2017-09-23 23:39 Nelson H. F. Beebe
2017-09-25 12:07 Norman Wilson
2017-09-25 14:16 ` Clem Cole
2017-09-25 15:13   ` Warner Losh
2017-09-25 16:51     ` Warner Losh
2017-09-26  0:56       ` ron minnich
2017-09-25 15:18   ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-25 15:30     ` Warner Losh
2017-09-25 23:49     ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-26  2:06       ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-26 14:53         ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-26 15:17           ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-26 21:23           ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-26 21:43             ` Arthur Krewat
2017-09-26 21:45             ` Grant Taylor
2017-09-27  0:58               ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-27  1:37                 ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-27  2:02                   ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-27 13:50                     ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-27 14:17                       ` Larry McVoy
2017-09-28  8:10                         ` Derek Fawcus
2017-09-28 12:34                           ` Chet Ramey
     [not found]                             ` <20170928174420.GA41732@accordion.employees.org>
2017-09-28 17:57                               ` Derek Fawcus
2017-09-28 18:04                                 ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-27  3:42                   ` Dave Horsfall
2017-09-27 14:35                     ` Chet Ramey
2017-09-25 12:46 [TUHS] Unix " Doug McIlroy
2017-09-25 13:57 ` Clem Cole
2017-09-30 15:17 [TUHS] UNIX " Norman Wilson
2017-09-30 20:29 ` Kevin Bowling
2017-09-30 21:56   ` Bakul Shah
2017-09-30 22:37     ` Kevin Bowling

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