[TUHS] net neutrality

[TUHS] net neutrality

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Clem Cole

    > Just like the electric company, needs to deliver electrons at some
    > rate/force.

If you want electrons at more than X bazillion per second, you'll have to pay
to have a higher-amperage service. And if you use more electrons, you pay
more. What's your problem with ISPs doing the same?

      Noel

[TUHS] net neutrality

[Larry McVoy]

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 03:13:18PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: Clem Cole
> 
>     > Just like the electric company, needs to deliver electrons at some
>     > rate/force.
> 
> If you want electrons at more than X bazillion per second, you'll have to pay
> to have a higher-amperage service. And if you use more electrons, you pay
> more. What's your problem with ISPs doing the same?

They already do that.  You pay based on how fast you want it to be.  Just
like the electrons.

We regulate utility companies for a reason.

[TUHS] net neutrality

[Warren Toomey]

All, the net neutrality thread is way too off-topic for TUHS.
Please continue the conversation off the list.

Many thanks, Warren

[TUHS] net neutrality

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>

    > Did you read the reddit link I sent?

No, because I despise Reddit.

    > Because if you had you wouldn't be asking this.

Now that I look at it, most of what I lists is ISP's _blocking_ sites.
I _already_ said I wanted to see a rule preventing that.

    > unregulated businesses will do whatever they can to make more money with
    > absolutely no concern about the consequences

Sure - like content providers.

      Noel

[TUHS] net neutrality

[ron minnich]

in gmail, you just hit m and the thread is gone.


On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:27 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
>
>     > Did you read the reddit link I sent?
>
> No, because I despise Reddit.
>
>     > Because if you had you wouldn't be asking this.
>
> Now that I look at it, most of what I lists is ISP's _blocking_ sites.
> I _already_ said I wanted to see a rule preventing that.
>
>     > unregulated businesses will do whatever they can to make more money
> with
>     > absolutely no concern about the consequences
>
> Sure - like content providers.
>
>       Noel
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20171211/688ec8c8/attachment.html>

[TUHS] net neutrality

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>

    > look at the history, various ISPs like Verizon, Comcast, etc, have done
    > stuff like block bittorrent, skype, etc

Bittorrent is a complex situation, some ISPs were ordered by a court to block
it.

As to Skype, I agree ISPs shouldn't block sites - but if you read my message,
I already said that.


    > The problem is I paid for the bits.  Bits is bits.  I paid for a rate,
    > that's what they got paid for, why should they get to charge a second
    > time for the same bits? That's exactly what they want to do.

Fine, you pay your money, you get X Mbits/second.

If you (or the site you're getting bits from) wants _more_ than X
Mbits/second, charging you - or them, which is I gather mostly what ISPs want
to do - for that privilege is a problem... how?

   Noel

[TUHS] net neutrality

[Larry McVoy]

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 03:10:22PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
> 
>     > look at the history, various ISPs like Verizon, Comcast, etc, have done
>     > stuff like block bittorrent, skype, etc
> 
> Bittorrent is a complex situation, some ISPs were ordered by a court to block
> it.
> 
> As to Skype, I agree ISPs shouldn't block sites - but if you read my message,
> I already said that.
> 
> 
>     > The problem is I paid for the bits.  Bits is bits.  I paid for a rate,
>     > that's what they got paid for, why should they get to charge a second
>     > time for the same bits? That's exactly what they want to do.
> 
> Fine, you pay your money, you get X Mbits/second.
> 
> If you (or the site you're getting bits from) wants _more_ than X
> Mbits/second, charging you - or them, which is I gather mostly what ISPs want
> to do - for that privilege is a problem... how?

Did you read the reddit link I sent?  Because if you had you wouldn't be 
asking this.  I took the time to go find it, it lays out past bad behaviour
that is nothing like what you are suggesting.  It took me a while to find
it, you could at least scan it and then maybe there is a conversation to
be had (not sure what though, it's pretty obvious in this, and pretty much
every other case, that unregulated businesses will do whatever they can to
make more money with absolutely no concern about the consequences).

[TUHS] V7 Addendem [ really lawyers and AT&T consent decree ]

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Clem Cole

    > IP and datagrams were very much built on no central control

Well, yes and no. One can easily have a centrally controlled datagram network
(q.v. the ARPANET) - although it's true that its path-selection algorithms,
etc were not centrally controlled - but other aspects of the network were.
(Interestingly, after various routing disasters the Internet caused by
improper configuration, some aspects of path selection in _parts_ of it are
now effectively centrally controlled; but I digress.)

The IP Internet was designed with no _overall_ central control, but as a
collection of autonomous entities.

    > In the end, it was MetCalfe's law (which was formulated on observations
    > about the phone system) that caused IP to win

Over any and all comers, including other decentralized datagram networks like
CLNP. MetCalfe's law doesn't talk about decentralized, it's just about 'first
to field'.


    > all want to see the net neutrality go away

This whole 'net neutrality' campaign drives me completely crazy.

If all people wanted was a rule saying 'ISPs can't give third parties _worse_
service, or - more importantly - deny service altogether, unless those parties
pay up' (i.e. what would amount to targeted extortion), I'd be _all for_ a
rule like that.

But the 'net neutrality' aficionados (most of whom, I'm fairly sure, are not
aware of/thinking about these details) are all signing up for a much more
expansive rule, one that says 'no ISP can offer anyone _better_ service for
paying more money' - which is quite different. My problems with this latter
form are two-fold.

First, what's wrong with that anyway? Do we have a rule saying you can't get
better road service if you pay? Absolutely not - restricted toll lanes are
becoming more and more common. So there's clearly no societal agreement on
this principle. (I suspect this 'net netrality' campaign has as a goal some
sort of 'forced equality' thing - unless the people behind it simply don't
even understand the difference.)

Second, that rule is, with a little extra work on the ISPs' part, ineffective
anyway. All they have to do is build _two_ networks, one better provisioned
than the other - and priced accordingly. You want better service? Sign up for
the second network; you'll pay more, but it's your choice.

    Noel

[TUHS] net neutrality

[Larry McVoy]

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 02:23:28PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> This whole 'net neutrality' campaign drives me completely crazy.
> 
> If all people wanted was a rule saying 'ISPs can't give third parties _worse_
> service, or - more importantly - deny service altogether, unless those parties
> pay up' (i.e. what would amount to targeted extortion), I'd be _all for_ a
> rule like that.
> 
> But the 'net neutrality' aficionados (most of whom, I'm fairly sure, are not
> aware of/thinking about these details) are all signing up for a much more
> expansive rule, one that says 'no ISP can offer anyone _better_ service for
> paying more money' - which is quite different. My problems with this latter
> form are two-fold.

So that's not at all the case.  Go look at the history, various ISPs like
Verizon, Comcast, etc, have done stuff like block bittorrent, skype, etc,
anything that they decided wasn't in their interest.

The problem is I paid for the bits.  Bits is bits.  I paid for a rate, 
that's what they got paid for, why should they get to charge a second
time for the same bits?  That's exactly what they want to do.  You 
pay them, you pay netflix, you've paid for the carrier, you've paid
for the content, oh, you want it to actually stream?  Too bad, Netflix
didn't pay their extortion so your movie watching sucks.

Don't believe me?  OK, how about this?

https://np.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/7i595b/will_the_repeal_of_net_neutrality_actually_help/dqwzn1g/

[TUHS] net neutrality

[Clem Cole]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 935 bytes --]

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

>
> The problem is I paid for the bits.  Bits is bits.  I paid for a rate,

​Amen brother...   they must be made a common carrier.  Just like a
shipping contain is 'said to contain' - they don't get to peek inside.
The bits are not theirs.   They have one and only one job -- delivery them.
Just like the electric company, needs to deliver electrons at some
rate/force.   They don't get to say I what I use them for.   The bits
coming in/going out are between me and the side I am communicating.

They are carriers i.e. plumbing --- which of course they do not like.   It
means its a lot hard for them to differentiate themselves other than in
service and price for delivery.   Period.

Clem​
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20171211/a7ac2ec4/attachment.html>