From: jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Subject: [TUHS] /dev/drum
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 07:39:56 -0400 (EDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20180503113956.EFE4F18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (raw)
> That would be a pretty ugly way to look at the world.
'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder', and all that! :-)
> Not to mention that one segment silently slides over into the next one
> if it's more than 8K.
Again, precedent; IIRC, on the GE-645 Multics, segments were limited to 2^N-1 pages,
precisely because otherwise incrementing an inter-segment pointer could march off
the end of one, and into the next! (The -645 was implemented as a 'bag on the side'
of the non-segmented -635, so things like this were somewhat inevitable.)
> wouldn't you say that the "chunks" on a PDP-11 are invisible to the
> user? Unless you are the kernel of course. Or run without protection.
No, in MERT 'segments' (called that) were a basic system primitive, which
users had access to. (Very cool system! I really need to get moving on trying
to recover that...)
> *Demand* paging is definitely a separate concept from virtual memory.
Hmmm. I understand your definitions, and like breaking things up into 'virtual
addressing' (which I prefer as the term, see below), 'non-residence' or
'demand loaded', and 'paging' (breaking into smallish, equal-sized chunks),
but the problem with using "virtual memory" as a term for the first is that to
most people, that term already has a meaning - the combination of all three.
(I have painful memories of this sort of thing - the term 'locator' was
invented after we gave up trying to convince people one could have a network
architecture in which not all packets contained addresses. That caused a major
'does not compute' fault in most people's brains! And 'locator' has since been
perverted from its original definition. But I digress.)
> There is no real connection between virtual memory and memory
> protection. One can exist with or without the other.
Virtual addressing and memory protection; yes, no connection. (Although the
former will often give you the latter - if process A can't see, or name,
process B's memory, it can't damage it.)
> Might have been just some internal early attempt that never got out of DEC?
Could be; something similar seems to have happened to the 'RK11-B':
http://gunkies.org/wiki/RK11_disk_controller
>> I don't have any problem with several different page sizes, _if it
>> engineering sense to support them_.
> So, would you then say that such machines do not have pages, but have
> segments?
> Or where do you draw the line? Is it some function of how many different
> sized pages there can be before you would call it segments? ;-)
No, the number doesn't make a difference (to me). I'm trying to work out what
the key difference is; in part, it's that segments are first-class objects
which are visible to the user; paging is almost always hidden under the
sheets.
But not always; some OS's allow processes to share pages, or to map file pages
into address spaces, etc. Which does make it complex to separate the two..
Noel
next reply other threads:[~2018-05-03 11:39 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 105+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-05-03 11:39 Noel Chiappa [this message]
2018-05-03 21:22 ` Johnny Billquist
[not found] <mailman.1.1525744802.16322.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
2018-05-08 22:39 ` Johnny Billquist
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2018-05-07 15:36 Noel Chiappa
2018-05-06 13:07 Noel Chiappa
2018-05-06 15:57 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-05-05 13:06 Noel Chiappa
2018-05-05 20:53 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-30 15:05 Noel Chiappa
2018-04-30 16:43 ` Paul Winalski
2018-04-30 21:41 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-05-03 2:54 ` Charles Anthony
2018-04-28 20:40 Noel Chiappa
2018-04-29 15:37 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-29 16:34 ` Steve Nickolas
2018-04-29 16:48 ` Warner Losh
2018-04-28 0:19 Noel Chiappa
2018-04-28 10:41 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-28 12:19 ` Rico Pajarola
2018-04-27 23:01 Noel Chiappa
2018-04-27 23:10 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-27 23:39 ` Warner Losh
[not found] <mailman.1.1524708001.6296.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
2018-04-27 22:41 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-26 1:53 Noel Chiappa
[not found] <mailman.143.1524696952.3788.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
2018-04-25 23:08 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-25 22:55 Noel Chiappa
[not found] <mailman.139.1524690859.3788.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
2018-04-25 22:54 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-25 22:46 Noel Chiappa
[not found] <mailman.137.1524667148.3788.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
2018-04-25 21:43 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-25 22:24 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-26 5:51 ` Tom Ivar Helbekkmo
2018-04-25 22:37 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-24 7:10 Rudi Blom
[not found] <mailman.125.1524526228.3788.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
2018-04-23 23:44 ` Johnny Billquist
2018-04-23 23:57 ` Steve Nickolas
2018-04-24 0:24 ` Ronald Natalie
2018-04-24 0:25 ` Warren Toomey
2018-04-24 0:31 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-04-24 1:02 ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2018-04-24 4:32 ` Grant Taylor
2018-04-24 4:49 ` Bakul Shah
2018-04-24 4:59 ` Warner Losh
2018-04-24 6:22 ` Bakul Shah
2018-04-24 14:57 ` Warner Losh
2018-04-24 6:46 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2018-04-23 22:01 Noel Chiappa
2018-04-23 22:09 ` Warner Losh
2018-04-23 18:41 Noel Chiappa
2018-04-23 19:09 ` Clem Cole
2018-04-23 23:01 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-04-23 23:49 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-04-24 0:26 ` Ronald Natalie
2018-04-22 18:06 Norman Wilson
2018-04-20 16:45 Noel Chiappa
2018-04-20 16:53 ` Charles Anthony
2018-04-20 17:16 ` William Pechter
2018-04-20 23:35 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-04-22 11:48 ` Steve Simon
2018-04-20 15:02 Tim Bradshaw
2018-04-20 15:58 ` Clem Cole
2018-04-20 16:00 ` David Collantes
2018-04-20 16:12 ` Dan Cross
2018-04-20 16:21 ` Clem Cole
2018-04-20 16:33 ` Warner Losh
2018-04-20 19:17 ` Ron Natalie
2018-04-20 20:23 ` Clem Cole
2018-04-20 22:10 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-04-22 17:01 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2018-04-22 17:37 ` Clem Cole
2018-04-22 19:14 ` Bakul Shah
2018-04-22 20:58 ` Mutiny
2018-04-22 22:37 ` Clem cole
2018-04-22 21:51 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-04-25 1:27 ` Dan Stromberg
2018-04-25 12:18 ` Ronald Natalie
2018-04-25 13:39 ` Tim Bradshaw
2018-04-25 14:02 ` arnold
2018-04-25 14:59 ` tfb
2018-04-25 14:33 ` Ian Zimmerman
2018-04-25 14:46 ` Larry McVoy
2018-04-25 15:03 ` ron minnich
2018-04-25 20:29 ` Paul Winalski
2018-04-25 20:45 ` Larry McVoy
2018-04-25 21:14 ` Lawrence Stewart
2018-04-25 21:30 ` ron minnich
2018-04-25 23:01 ` Bakul Shah
2018-04-23 16:42 ` Tim Bradshaw
2018-04-23 17:30 ` Ron Natalie
2018-04-23 17:51 ` Clem Cole
2018-04-23 18:30 ` Ron Natalie
2018-04-25 14:02 ` Tom Ivar Helbekkmo
2018-04-25 14:38 ` Clem Cole
2018-04-23 20:47 ` Grant Taylor
2018-04-23 21:06 ` Clem Cole
2018-04-23 21:14 ` Dan Mick
2018-04-23 21:27 ` Clem Cole
2018-04-23 22:07 ` Tim Bradshaw
2018-04-23 22:15 ` Warner Losh
2018-04-23 23:30 ` Grant Taylor
2018-04-24 9:37 ` Michael Kjörling
2018-04-24 9:57 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-04-24 13:01 ` Nemo
2018-04-24 13:03 ` Arthur Krewat
2018-04-23 23:45 ` Arthur Krewat
2018-04-24 8:05 ` tfb
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