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* [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
@ 2020-01-18 22:48 Chris Hanson
  2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson
  2020-01-18 23:27 ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-01-18 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I’ve seen the archives of Atari System V Release 4 for the TT030, and the scanned user and developer manuals. Has anything else been preserved, e.g. the installation tapes and any other manuals?

Is there even a full accounting of what was in the box and what shipped afterwards (patches etc.)?

  -- Chris


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-01-18 22:48 [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? Chris Hanson
@ 2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson
  2020-02-05 23:29   ` Chris Hanson
  2020-02-06  4:02   ` Henry Bent
  2020-01-18 23:27 ` Arthur Krewat
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-01-18 23:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020, Chris Hanson wrote:

> I’ve seen the archives of Atari System V Release 4 for the TT030,
> and the scanned user and developer manuals. Has anything else been
> preserved, e.g. the installation tapes and any other manuals?
>
> Is there even a full accounting of what was in the box and what
> shipped afterwards (patches etc.)?

Most of I've seen is the stuff I found while playing with Amiga UNIX,
which is the stuff hosted at atariunix.com.  I was able to pull the
Motif (v 1.1.1) bits out of the Atari UNIX disk images and get them
running on Amiga UNIX.

Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the pre-OpenMotif
bits available anywhere?  Even if under lock and key for now, I'd be
happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential future availability.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-01-18 22:48 [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? Chris Hanson
  2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson
@ 2020-01-18 23:27 ` Arthur Krewat
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2020-01-18 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Wow, never knew Atari was involved in anything like UNIX.

Thank you!


On 1/18/2020 5:48 PM, Chris Hanson wrote:
> I’ve seen the archives of Atari System V Release 4 for the TT030, and the scanned user and developer manuals. Has anything else been preserved, e.g. the installation tapes and any other manuals?
>
> Is there even a full accounting of what was in the box and what shipped afterwards (patches etc.)?
>
>    -- Chris
>
>
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson
@ 2020-02-05 23:29   ` Chris Hanson
  2020-02-06  3:44     ` Michael Parson
  2020-02-06  4:02   ` Henry Bent
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-02-05 23:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Parson; +Cc: tuhs

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On Jan 18, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
> 
> Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the pre-OpenMotif
> bits available anywhere?  Even if under lock and key for now, I'd be
> happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential future availability.

There are Motif 1.1 sources on Bitsavers (or your favorite mirror) at <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/ <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/>>.

  -- Chris





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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-02-05 23:29   ` Chris Hanson
@ 2020-02-06  3:44     ` Michael Parson
  2020-02-06  3:54       ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-02-06  3:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Wed, 5 Feb 2020, Chris Hanson wrote:
> On Jan 18, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
>
>> Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the
>> pre-OpenMotif bits available anywhere?  Even if under lock and key
>> for now, I'd be happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential
>> future availability.
>
> There are Motif 1.1 sources on Bitsavers (or your favorite mirror)
> at <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/
> <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/>>.

Thank you!

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-02-06  3:44     ` Michael Parson
@ 2020-02-06  3:54       ` Larry McVoy
  2020-02-06 15:35         ` Chet Ramey
  2020-02-06 15:50         ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-02-06  3:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Parson; +Cc: tuhs

On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 09:44:02PM -0600, Michael Parson wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Feb 2020, Chris Hanson wrote:
> >On Jan 18, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
> >
> >>Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the
> >>pre-OpenMotif bits available anywhere?  Even if under lock and key
> >>for now, I'd be happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential
> >>future availability.
> >
> >There are Motif 1.1 sources on Bitsavers (or your favorite mirror)
> >at <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/
> ><http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/>>.
> 
> Thank you!

Part of me is wondering why anyone cares about Motif.  My memory of that
is that Xview was better and the Athena widgets were better.  Athena was
ugly but it worked, Xview, the X11 version of Sunview, was fantastic to
program in,  the argv was a set of 2 tuples, thing and value.  And it
looked better.  I've written Xview apps and other than the Tk part of
Tcl/Tk, it was the most pleasant GUI API I have used.  For the record,
the Tk part of Tcl/Tk is still, decades later, the best GUI interface
I've ever seen.  John got that right.

So no offense intended, what about Motif is likeable?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson
  2020-02-05 23:29   ` Chris Hanson
@ 2020-02-06  4:02   ` Henry Bent
  2020-02-06  5:05     ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2020-02-06  4:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Parson; +Cc: TUHS main list

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On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 18:20, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 2020, Chris Hanson wrote:
>
> > I’ve seen the archives of Atari System V Release 4 for the TT030,
> > and the scanned user and developer manuals. Has anything else been
> > preserved, e.g. the installation tapes and any other manuals?
> >
> > Is there even a full accounting of what was in the box and what
> > shipped afterwards (patches etc.)?
>
> Most of I've seen is the stuff I found while playing with Amiga UNIX,
> which is the stuff hosted at atariunix.com.  I was able to pull the
> Motif (v 1.1.1) bits out of the Atari UNIX disk images and get them
> running on Amiga UNIX.
>
> Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the pre-OpenMotif
> bits available anywhere?  Even if under lock and key for now, I'd be
> happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential future availability.
>

I have a QIC-150 cartridge of Motif 1.2.1 (labeled "patch release", so
perhaps not a complete source tree?) but do not have a working drive that
will read it.  I attempted to contact Al Kossow about reading it but was
unsuccessful.  If you would be able to read it I would be happy to send it
to you.

-Henry

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-02-06  4:02   ` Henry Bent
@ 2020-02-06  5:05     ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-02-06  5:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: TUHS main list

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I have two qic-150 drives.  Contact me off list.  Clem

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 8:03 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 18:20, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Jan 2020, Chris Hanson wrote:
>>
>> > I’ve seen the archives of Atari System V Release 4 for the TT030,
>> > and the scanned user and developer manuals. Has anything else been
>> > preserved, e.g. the installation tapes and any other manuals?
>> >
>> > Is there even a full accounting of what was in the box and what
>> > shipped afterwards (patches etc.)?
>>
>> Most of I've seen is the stuff I found while playing with Amiga UNIX,
>> which is the stuff hosted at atariunix.com.  I was able to pull the
>> Motif (v 1.1.1) bits out of the Atari UNIX disk images and get them
>> running on Amiga UNIX.
>>
>> Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the pre-OpenMotif
>> bits available anywhere?  Even if under lock and key for now, I'd be
>> happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential future availability.
>>
>
> I have a QIC-150 cartridge of Motif 1.2.1 (labeled "patch release", so
> perhaps not a complete source tree?) but do not have a working drive that
> will read it.  I attempted to contact Al Kossow about reading it but was
> unsuccessful.  If you would be able to read it I would be happy to send it
> to you.
>
> -Henry
>
-- 
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-02-06  3:54       ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-02-06 15:35         ` Chet Ramey
  2020-02-06 15:50         ` Michael Parson
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Chet Ramey @ 2020-02-06 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy, Michael Parson; +Cc: tuhs

On 2/5/20 10:54 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:

> Part of me is wondering why anyone cares about Motif.  My memory of that
> is that Xview was better and the Athena widgets were better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj02_UeUnGQ

"A Political History of X" - Keith Packard (LCA 2020)


-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet@case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-02-06  3:54       ` Larry McVoy
  2020-02-06 15:35         ` Chet Ramey
@ 2020-02-06 15:50         ` Michael Parson
  2020-02-06 17:58           ` Arno Griffioen
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-02-06 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2020-02-05 21:54, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 09:44:02PM -0600, Michael Parson wrote:
>> On Wed, 5 Feb 2020, Chris Hanson wrote:
>> >On Jan 18, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the
>> >>pre-OpenMotif bits available anywhere?  Even if under lock and key
>> >>for now, I'd be happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential
>> >>future availability.
>> >
>> >There are Motif 1.1 sources on Bitsavers (or your favorite mirror)
>> >at <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/
>> ><http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/>>.
>> 
>> Thank you!
> 
> Part of me is wondering why anyone cares about Motif.  My memory of 
> that
> is that Xview was better and the Athena widgets were better.  Athena 
> was
> ugly but it worked, Xview, the X11 version of Sunview, was fantastic to
> program in,  the argv was a set of 2 tuples, thing and value.  And it
> looked better.  I've written Xview apps and other than the Tk part of
> Tcl/Tk, it was the most pleasant GUI API I have used.  For the record,
> the Tk part of Tcl/Tk is still, decades later, the best GUI interface
> I've ever seen.  John got that right.
> 
> So no offense intended, what about Motif is likeable?

No offense taken.  It's not so much that it's "likeable", at least, any
more than playing with any old software is "likeable".  It only crossed
my radar because someone mentioned that it was available for Atari UNIX
(ASV), would those bits be able to be used on Amiga UNIX (AMIX)?  I was
able to pull the bits off the ASV images and get them running on AMIX,
but it requires setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH to load the ASV X11 libs, so, I
thought, if I could get my hands on the source, I could compile it 
against
the AMIX supplied libs, then maybe try and get Mosaic compiled as well.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-02-06 15:50         ` Michael Parson
@ 2020-02-06 17:58           ` Arno Griffioen
  2020-02-06 23:15             ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Arno Griffioen @ 2020-02-06 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Parson; +Cc: tuhs

On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 09:50:39AM -0600, Michael Parson wrote:
> No offense taken.  It's not so much that it's "likeable", at least, any
> more than playing with any old software is "likeable".  It only crossed
> my radar because someone mentioned that it was available for Atari UNIX
> (ASV), would those bits be able to be used on Amiga UNIX (AMIX)?  I was

Just nitpicking a little :)

I know Amiga UNIX is often referred to as AMIX, but 'in the day' there
was an actual 'AMIX' which was an CBM in-house only port of SVR3.2 
to 'A2500UX' labeled machines. (basically 68020+MMU equipped boxes)

These ran the internal email and file distribution network, but was
never publicly released. Quite noticeable as it boots into an ASCII
console with a bright orange background.

Same background that some of the 68020/030 cards boot ROMs show when choosing
the 'boot UNIX' option.

Worked on that old platform for some time.. Part of my projects was to migrate 
some of the tools to the 'next version' which was..

The actual product sold as 'Amiga UNIX'. (not 'AMIX' ;) )

This was the SVR4 port in a V1 and V2 version with the latter getting a bunch 
of updates to streamline it on the platform.

V1 was really only sold/used to launch-customers while V2 was more 
publicly available. (V1 was trivial to hack around the '1 user' base 
license with a little 'od' and binary patching ;) )

Interesting issue at the time was that, according to the internal grapevine
at CBM at the time, the Amiga UNIX SVR4 was not m68k ABI compliant, so it
could not run pre-packaged m68k-svr4 software that did use this interface. 

Reason was rumoured to be that CBM (in ther never-ending efforts to do 
things 'cheap') got the cheapest source license they could get for SVR4 which 
AFAIK was for the 3B2 or similar AT&T platform and they did not get an actual 
m68k source and license.

Never got that really verified, but I do know that at the time the lack 
of support for the m68k ABI was a big hurdle for acceptance.

> but it requires setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH to load the ASV X11 libs, so, I
> thought, if I could get my hands on the source, I could compile it against
> the AMIX supplied libs, then maybe try and get Mosaic compiled as well.

The SVR4 Amiga UNIX used CDE and all bits for the X11 environment,
so the binaries should all be there.

No sources were available to people outside the CBM UNIX group at the
headquarters at the time, but perhaps they got out onto the net when it 
all went down.

The UNIX group inside CBM got disbanded way before they went totally out 
of business, so it may have well gone into the shredder at some point.

Quitting the CBM-UNIX group was done very crudely I might add with some of 
the guys from the US being over in europe when they got told that they were 
fired and their company creditcards got blocked at the same time.. classy...

							Bye, Arno.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-02-06 17:58           ` Arno Griffioen
@ 2020-02-06 23:15             ` Michael Parson
  2020-02-07 11:53               ` Arno Griffioen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-02-06 23:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Thu, 6 Feb 2020, Arno Griffioen wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 09:50:39AM -0600, Michael Parson wrote:
>> No offense taken.  It's not so much that it's "likeable", at least, any
>> more than playing with any old software is "likeable".  It only crossed
>> my radar because someone mentioned that it was available for Atari UNIX
>> (ASV), would those bits be able to be used on Amiga UNIX (AMIX)?  I was
>
> Just nitpicking a little :)
>
> I know Amiga UNIX is often referred to as AMIX, but 'in the day' there
> was an actual 'AMIX' which was an CBM in-house only port of SVR3.2 to
> 'A2500UX' labeled machines. (basically 68020+MMU equipped boxes)
>
> These ran the internal email and file distribution network, but was
> never publicly released. Quite noticeable as it boots into an ASCII
> console with a bright orange background.
>
> Same background that some of the 68020/030 cards boot ROMs show when
> choosing the 'boot UNIX' option.

Neat.  This is the first time I've heard of this UNIX from Commodore.
I'd heard of Amiga UNIX, which ran on the A3000 and A2000s with the
appropriate 68020(+MMU) or 030 upgrades, and their failed CBM 900
project, which was based on the Z8001, which was reported to be a port
of MWC Coherent rather than based on the AT&T code.

> Worked on that old platform for some time.. Part of my projects was to
> migrate some of the tools to the 'next version' which was..
>
> The actual product sold as 'Amiga UNIX'. (not 'AMIX' ;) )

$ uname -a
UNIX_System_V amy 4.0 2.1c 0800430 Amiga (Unlimited) m68k

> This was the SVR4 port in a V1 and V2 version with the latter getting
> a bunch of updates to streamline it on the platform.
>
> V1 was really only sold/used to launch-customers while V2 was more
> publicly available. (V1 was trivial to hack around the '1 user' base
> license with a little 'od' and binary patching ;) )
>
> Interesting issue at the time was that, according to the internal
> grapevine at CBM at the time, the Amiga UNIX SVR4 was not m68k ABI
> compliant, so it could not run pre-packaged m68k-svr4 software that
> did use this interface.

The docs claim that there was an attempt to make it ABI compliant, but
the ABI wasn't "finalized" or something, so, future compatibility was
not guaranteed.

> Reason was rumoured to be that CBM (in ther never-ending efforts to
> do things 'cheap') got the cheapest source license they could get for
> SVR4 which AFAIK was for the 3B2 or similar AT&T platform and they did
> not get an actual m68k source and license.
>
> Never got that really verified, but I do know that at the time the
> lack of support for the m68k ABI was a big hurdle for acceptance.

*shrug* Atari UNIX and Amiga UNIX seem close enough that some stuff
compiled on Atari works on the Amiga.

Out of curiosity, how much m68k SysV software was out there?

>> but it requires setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH to load the ASV X11 libs, so,
>> I thought, if I could get my hands on the source, I could compile
>> it against the AMIX supplied libs, then maybe try and get Mosaic
>> compiled as well.
>
> The SVR4 Amiga UNIX used CDE and all bits for the X11 environment, so
> the binaries should all be there.

The install bits that have survived and escaped onto the Internet have
X11R4 with XView/OpenLook, no Motif/CDE.  There was a port of X11R5 to
it that supported some of the newer graphics cards, but still no Motif.

> No sources were available to people outside the CBM UNIX group at the
> headquarters at the time, but perhaps they got out onto the net when
> it all went down.

Would be cool if someone found a tape and got it in the right hands.

> The UNIX group inside CBM got disbanded way before they went totally
> out of business, so it may have well gone into the shredder at some
> point.

Rumors were that *the* box that had the source on it crashed.  Sounded
like a ridiculous reason to me, but that's what I'd heard.

> Quitting the CBM-UNIX group was done very crudely I might add with
> some of the guys from the US being over in europe when they got told
> that they were fired and their company creditcards got blocked at the
> same time.. classy...

From what I've heard about the last days of Commodore under Mehdi Ali,
this doesn't surprise me.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books?
  2020-02-06 23:15             ` Michael Parson
@ 2020-02-07 11:53               ` Arno Griffioen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Arno Griffioen @ 2020-02-07 11:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Parson; +Cc: tuhs

On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 05:15:23PM -0600, Michael Parson wrote:
> > Never got that really verified, but I do know that at the time the
> > lack of support for the m68k ABI was a big hurdle for acceptance.
> 
> *shrug* Atari UNIX and Amiga UNIX seem close enough that some stuff
> compiled on Atari works on the Amiga.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how much m68k SysV software was out there?

A decent amount, at least for basic productivity software (accounting, etc.) 
and compilers and such. Nothing spectacular, but would have given at least 
an initial library of basic tools.

> > The SVR4 Amiga UNIX used CDE and all bits for the X11 environment, so
> > the binaries should all be there.
> 
> The install bits that have survived and escaped onto the Internet have
> X11R4 with XView/OpenLook, no Motif/CDE.  There was a port of X11R5 to
> it that supported some of the newer graphics cards, but still no Motif.

Ah.. Yes you are right.. De distribution tape only has XView. CDE I probably 
only saw on an in-house demo of. 

I remember it was terribly slow though, especially with the limited RAM 
capacity at the time of max 16MB and a 25Mhz '030, which was already showing
it's age by now and should really have been an '040 with the option
of (much) more RAM.

								Bye, Arno.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

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Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-01-18 22:48 [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? Chris Hanson
2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson
2020-02-05 23:29   ` Chris Hanson
2020-02-06  3:44     ` Michael Parson
2020-02-06  3:54       ` Larry McVoy
2020-02-06 15:35         ` Chet Ramey
2020-02-06 15:50         ` Michael Parson
2020-02-06 17:58           ` Arno Griffioen
2020-02-06 23:15             ` Michael Parson
2020-02-07 11:53               ` Arno Griffioen
2020-02-06  4:02   ` Henry Bent
2020-02-06  5:05     ` Clem Cole
2020-01-18 23:27 ` Arthur Krewat

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