* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap @ 2017-01-19 7:53 Kay Parker 2017-01-19 8:49 ` Wesley Parish 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Kay Parker @ 2017-01-19 7:53 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1668 bytes --] guess it is the beginning of the end of Solaris and the Sparc CPU: 'Rumors have been circulating since late last year that Oracle was planning to kill development of the Solaris operating system, with major layoffs coming to the operating system's development team. Others speculated that future versions of the Unix platform Oracle acquired with Sun Microsystems would be designed for the cloud and built for the Intel platform only and that the SPARC processor line would meet its demise. The good news, based on a recently released Oracle roadmap for the SPARC platform, is that both Solaris and SPARC appear to have a future. The bad news is that the next major version of Solaris—Solaris 12— has apparently been canceled, as it has disappeared from the roadmap. Instead, it's been replaced with "Solaris 11.next"—and that version is apparently the only update planned for the operating system through 2021. With its on-premises software and hardware sales in decline, Oracle has been undergoing a major reorganization over the past two years as it attempts to pivot toward the cloud. Those changes led to a major speed bump in the development cycle for Java Enterprise Edition, a slowdown significant enough that it spurred something of a Java community revolt. Oracle later announced a new roadmap for Java EE that recalibrated expectations, focusing on cloud services features for the next version of the software platform. ' http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/oracle-sort-of-confirms-demise-of-solaris-12-effort/ -- Kay Parker kayparker at mailite.com -- http://www.fastmail.com - The way an email service should be ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-19 7:53 [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap Kay Parker @ 2017-01-19 8:49 ` Wesley Parish 2017-01-19 14:40 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-19 18:17 ` Joerg Schilling 0 siblings, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Wesley Parish @ 2017-01-19 8:49 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2097 bytes --] I suppose that set of rumours will lead to people shifting to the FOSS versions of Solaris and SPARC. Wesley Parish Quoting Kay Parker <kayparker at mailite.com>: > guess it is the beginning of the end of Solaris and the Sparc CPU: > 'Rumors have been circulating since late last year that Oracle was > planning to kill development of the Solaris operating system, with > major > layoffs coming to the operating system's development team. Others > speculated that future versions of the Unix platform Oracle acquired > with Sun Microsystems would be designed for the cloud and built for the > Intel platform only and that the SPARC processor line would meet its > demise. The good news, based on a recently released Oracle roadmap for > the SPARC platform, is that both Solaris and SPARC appear to have a > future. > > The bad news is that the next major version of SolarisâSolaris 12â > has > apparently been canceled, as it has disappeared from the roadmap. > Instead, it's been replaced with "Solaris 11.next"âand that version > is > apparently the only update planned for the operating system through > 2021. > > With its on-premises software and hardware sales in decline, Oracle has > been undergoing a major reorganization over the past two years as it > attempts to pivot toward the cloud. Those changes led to a major speed > bump in the development cycle for Java Enterprise Edition, a slowdown > significant enough that it spurred something of a Java community > revolt. > Oracle later announced a new roadmap for Java EE that recalibrated > expectations, focusing on cloud services features for the next version > of the software platform. ' > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/oracle-sort-of-confirms-demise-of-solaris-12-effort/ > > -- > Kay Parker > kayparker at mailite.com > > -- > http://www.fastmail.com - The way an email service should be > > "I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor, Method for Guitar "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-19 8:49 ` Wesley Parish @ 2017-01-19 14:40 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-19 16:39 ` Tim Bradshaw 2017-01-20 2:00 ` Nick Downing 2017-01-19 18:17 ` Joerg Schilling 1 sibling, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2017-01-19 14:40 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2446 bytes --] Let's hope they do the right thing and release Solaris into the wild again. ZFS in particular. Personally, I think they are making a huge mistake. What are they going to do, move to Linux? Oh, right... the "cloud" will be Linux. Blech. On 1/19/2017 3:49 AM, Wesley Parish wrote: > I suppose that set of rumours will lead to people shifting to the FOSS versions > of Solaris and SPARC. > > Wesley Parish > > Quoting Kay Parker <kayparker at mailite.com>: > >> guess it is the beginning of the end of Solaris and the Sparc CPU: >> 'Rumors have been circulating since late last year that Oracle was >> planning to kill development of the Solaris operating system, with >> major >> layoffs coming to the operating system's development team. Others >> speculated that future versions of the Unix platform Oracle acquired >> with Sun Microsystems would be designed for the cloud and built for the >> Intel platform only and that the SPARC processor line would meet its >> demise. The good news, based on a recently released Oracle roadmap for >> the SPARC platform, is that both Solaris and SPARC appear to have a >> future. >> >> The bad news is that the next major version of Solaris—Solaris 12— >> has >> apparently been canceled, as it has disappeared from the roadmap. >> Instead, it's been replaced with "Solaris 11.next"—and that version >> is >> apparently the only update planned for the operating system through >> 2021. >> >> With its on-premises software and hardware sales in decline, Oracle has >> been undergoing a major reorganization over the past two years as it >> attempts to pivot toward the cloud. Those changes led to a major speed >> bump in the development cycle for Java Enterprise Edition, a slowdown >> significant enough that it spurred something of a Java community >> revolt. >> Oracle later announced a new roadmap for Java EE that recalibrated >> expectations, focusing on cloud services features for the next version >> of the software platform. ' >> > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/oracle-sort-of-confirms-demise-of-solaris-12-effort/ >> -- >> Kay Parker >> kayparker at mailite.com >> >> -- >> http://www.fastmail.com - The way an email service should be >> >> > > > "I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor, > Method for Guitar > > "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-19 14:40 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2017-01-19 16:39 ` Tim Bradshaw 2017-01-19 17:02 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-20 2:00 ` Nick Downing 1 sibling, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Tim Bradshaw @ 2017-01-19 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3020 bytes --] Well, they are probably reacting to what their customers want which, in my experience working at a fairly typical customer up to a couple of years ago, is indeed Linux. That's kind of sad, but Linux, much though I'd like to hate it, is unfortunately both a significantly more pleasant experience as a user & administrator, and a lot easier to hire people for. It's 20 years too late for Solaris to have a future. > On 19 Jan 2017, at 14:40, Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote: > > Let's hope they do the right thing and release Solaris into the wild again. ZFS in particular. > > Personally, I think they are making a huge mistake. What are they going to do, move to Linux? Oh, right... the "cloud" will be Linux. > > Blech. > >> On 1/19/2017 3:49 AM, Wesley Parish wrote: >> I suppose that set of rumours will lead to people shifting to the FOSS versions >> of Solaris and SPARC. >> >> Wesley Parish >> >> Quoting Kay Parker <kayparker at mailite.com>: >> >>> guess it is the beginning of the end of Solaris and the Sparc CPU: >>> 'Rumors have been circulating since late last year that Oracle was >>> planning to kill development of the Solaris operating system, with >>> major >>> layoffs coming to the operating system's development team. Others >>> speculated that future versions of the Unix platform Oracle acquired >>> with Sun Microsystems would be designed for the cloud and built for the >>> Intel platform only and that the SPARC processor line would meet its >>> demise. The good news, based on a recently released Oracle roadmap for >>> the SPARC platform, is that both Solaris and SPARC appear to have a >>> future. >>> >>> The bad news is that the next major version of Solaris—Solaris 12— >>> has >>> apparently been canceled, as it has disappeared from the roadmap. >>> Instead, it's been replaced with "Solaris 11.next"—and that version >>> is >>> apparently the only update planned for the operating system through >>> 2021. >>> >>> With its on-premises software and hardware sales in decline, Oracle has >>> been undergoing a major reorganization over the past two years as it >>> attempts to pivot toward the cloud. Those changes led to a major speed >>> bump in the development cycle for Java Enterprise Edition, a slowdown >>> significant enough that it spurred something of a Java community >>> revolt. >>> Oracle later announced a new roadmap for Java EE that recalibrated >>> expectations, focusing on cloud services features for the next version >>> of the software platform. ' >>> >> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/oracle-sort-of-confirms-demise-of-solaris-12-effort/ >>> -- >>> Kay Parker >>> kayparker at mailite.com >>> >>> -- >>> http://www.fastmail.com - The way an email service should be >>> >>> >> >> >> "I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor, >> Method for Guitar >> >> "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn >> >> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-19 16:39 ` Tim Bradshaw @ 2017-01-19 17:02 ` Arthur Krewat 0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2017-01-19 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4284 bytes --] Have you used Solaris 11, especially up to 11.3? I find Linux and it's recently evolving service and network configuration methods to be a bit of a pain. The biggest example of this was the loss of ifconfig from the minimal install of Redhat/Centos recently. Manually installing nettools just to get it back, when every other UNIX still has it is exasperating. If you're a Linux-only house, and even then are up-to-date and use only one or two distros of Linux, I get it. But if, like me, you administer multiple distros, versions, and then start moving across AIX, HP/UX and Solaris, it's another glaring example of "we're going it alone" (again). For what it's worth, I've been administering a PeopleSoft environment built entirely on Solaris x86 (half of it virtualized) for quite a few years, and it's been trouble-free. All the other Linux distros I administer have had their own idiosyncrasies and bugs. Not to mention the glaring security holes that have come out in the past 2 years. Conversely, I've also administered some SFHA clusters on Redhat and they've been flawless too. But I digress. This is not supposed to be a "bash Linux" thread :) On 1/19/2017 11:39 AM, Tim Bradshaw wrote: > Well, they are probably reacting to what their customers want which, in my experience working at a fairly typical customer up to a couple of years ago, is indeed Linux. That's kind of sad, but Linux, much though I'd like to hate it, is unfortunately both a significantly more pleasant experience as a user & administrator, and a lot easier to hire people for. It's 20 years too late for Solaris to have a future. > >> On 19 Jan 2017, at 14:40, Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote: >> >> Let's hope they do the right thing and release Solaris into the wild again. ZFS in particular. >> >> Personally, I think they are making a huge mistake. What are they going to do, move to Linux? Oh, right... the "cloud" will be Linux. >> >> Blech. >> >>> On 1/19/2017 3:49 AM, Wesley Parish wrote: >>> I suppose that set of rumours will lead to people shifting to the FOSS versions >>> of Solaris and SPARC. >>> >>> Wesley Parish >>> >>> Quoting Kay Parker <kayparker at mailite.com>: >>> >>>> guess it is the beginning of the end of Solaris and the Sparc CPU: >>>> 'Rumors have been circulating since late last year that Oracle was >>>> planning to kill development of the Solaris operating system, with >>>> major >>>> layoffs coming to the operating system's development team. Others >>>> speculated that future versions of the Unix platform Oracle acquired >>>> with Sun Microsystems would be designed for the cloud and built for the >>>> Intel platform only and that the SPARC processor line would meet its >>>> demise. The good news, based on a recently released Oracle roadmap for >>>> the SPARC platform, is that both Solaris and SPARC appear to have a >>>> future. >>>> >>>> The bad news is that the next major version of Solaris—Solaris 12— >>>> has >>>> apparently been canceled, as it has disappeared from the roadmap. >>>> Instead, it's been replaced with "Solaris 11.next"—and that version >>>> is >>>> apparently the only update planned for the operating system through >>>> 2021. >>>> >>>> With its on-premises software and hardware sales in decline, Oracle has >>>> been undergoing a major reorganization over the past two years as it >>>> attempts to pivot toward the cloud. Those changes led to a major speed >>>> bump in the development cycle for Java Enterprise Edition, a slowdown >>>> significant enough that it spurred something of a Java community >>>> revolt. >>>> Oracle later announced a new roadmap for Java EE that recalibrated >>>> expectations, focusing on cloud services features for the next version >>>> of the software platform. ' >>>> >>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/oracle-sort-of-confirms-demise-of-solaris-12-effort/ >>>> -- >>>> Kay Parker >>>> kayparker at mailite.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://www.fastmail.com - The way an email service should be >>>> >>>> >>> >>> "I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor, >>> Method for Guitar >>> >>> "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn >>> >>> > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-19 14:40 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-19 16:39 ` Tim Bradshaw @ 2017-01-20 2:00 ` Nick Downing 2017-01-20 11:24 ` Joerg Schilling 2017-01-20 11:54 ` Tim Bradshaw 1 sibling, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Nick Downing @ 2017-01-20 2:00 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6367 bytes --] I kind of differ here, I know I'm throwing fat into the fire but.... I had to use Solaris at uni when I started my degree 10yrs ago. It was at Melbourne University which DID have a very good computer science programme, you had to learn lots of low-level stuff like C and basic Unix programming, etc. I also used to tutor, and I remember I taught a course about MIPS assembly language using an emulator, which I believe all CS majors had to do. Obviously there was plenty of high-level stuff too (I taught a course on SQL relational algebra and so on), but what I remember is you had to learn Solaris in first year, and you had to basically know your way around the system, I recall there was a course that included a shell programming component too. Well much as I completely agree that graduates should be taught C and Unix, I found Solaris to be a pretty bad platform. I guess the core of my dissatisfaction stems from it being different to Linux, and so I suppose Solaris religious people are going to say "GNU is an ABOMINATION it should NEVER HAVE INTRODUCED LONG COMMAND-LINE OPTIONS and ALL THE TOOLS CONTAIN USELESS FEATURES" and so on... and they are right... but nevertheless I found it much less useable and I felt a lot of the tools had rough edges, as well as changing "mkdir --parents" into "mkdir -p" you had to account for different behaviour which was in most cases more naive. So, because of this the sysadmins had installed a whole boatload of GNU tools into places like /opt/gcc-(VERSION) or /opt/coreutils-(VERSION), and if you had to use a specific feature of say, "ls" or "find" or "sort" that wasn't in the Solaris tool, you had to exhaustively list the long pathname to the GNU tool in your script. The sysadmins did this kind of piecemeal in the system's scripts like .profile and the result was basically a total mess, I don't know how you would have explained all this to a naive student. Not to mention that the directory structure of the student servers had involved into a huge mess over a decade or more with lots of stuff installed in weird places that was referred to in the course material that the teachers had developed, i.e. our IP investment relied totally on this strange Solaris installation. I gather that the coursework has been significantly dumbed down now with the introduction of the so-called "Melbourne Model", it was very controversial at the time, but basically means you learn only dumbed down stuff at undergraduate level, and to get a real degree you have to do a Masters at least. I believe the Solaris student servers are still running but I don't think the coursework uses them anymore, it's all Python- and web-based now. When my sister did the course recently all her assignments were done by logging into a website and running a Python-based IDE via the website which would run her Python scripts and show her the results right there in the browser. Hmm. So I digress but anyway, I would have taken the opportunity to change all the coursework to refer to a Linux student server with all the normal tools installed in the expected places. I always found the Solaris system to be pretty much like stepping back in time. And I do not really understand why corporations would want to run Solaris when Linux is vastly more developed. I guess maybe they have a big investment in Solaris based tools and networks (perhaps stuff like Sun Grid Engine), but I would think it would be easier to port all this to Linux than to continue bashing one's head against a brick wall in trying to get this outdated and proprietary system to become modern. Much as I love BSD I feel that much the same argument applies to FreeBSD as well, it will simply never be as developed/mature as Linux. cheers, Nick On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:40 AM, Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote: > Let's hope they do the right thing and release Solaris into the wild again. > ZFS in particular. > > Personally, I think they are making a huge mistake. What are they going to > do, move to Linux? Oh, right... the "cloud" will be Linux. > > Blech. > > On 1/19/2017 3:49 AM, Wesley Parish wrote: >> >> I suppose that set of rumours will lead to people shifting to the FOSS >> versions >> of Solaris and SPARC. >> >> Wesley Parish >> >> Quoting Kay Parker <kayparker at mailite.com>: >> >>> guess it is the beginning of the end of Solaris and the Sparc CPU: >>> 'Rumors have been circulating since late last year that Oracle was >>> planning to kill development of the Solaris operating system, with >>> major >>> layoffs coming to the operating system's development team. Others >>> speculated that future versions of the Unix platform Oracle acquired >>> with Sun Microsystems would be designed for the cloud and built for the >>> Intel platform only and that the SPARC processor line would meet its >>> demise. The good news, based on a recently released Oracle roadmap for >>> the SPARC platform, is that both Solaris and SPARC appear to have a >>> future. >>> >>> The bad news is that the next major version of Solaris—Solaris 12— >>> has >>> apparently been canceled, as it has disappeared from the roadmap. >>> Instead, it's been replaced with "Solaris 11.next"—and that version >>> is >>> apparently the only update planned for the operating system through >>> 2021. >>> >>> With its on-premises software and hardware sales in decline, Oracle has >>> been undergoing a major reorganization over the past two years as it >>> attempts to pivot toward the cloud. Those changes led to a major speed >>> bump in the development cycle for Java Enterprise Edition, a slowdown >>> significant enough that it spurred something of a Java community >>> revolt. >>> Oracle later announced a new roadmap for Java EE that recalibrated >>> expectations, focusing on cloud services features for the next version >>> of the software platform. ' >>> >> >> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/oracle-sort-of-confirms-demise-of-solaris-12-effort/ >>> >>> -- >>> Kay Parker >>> kayparker at mailite.com >>> >>> -- >>> http://www.fastmail.com - The way an email service should be >>> >>> >> >> >> >> "I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand >> Sor, >> Method for Guitar >> >> "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel >> Goldwyn >> >> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 2:00 ` Nick Downing @ 2017-01-20 11:24 ` Joerg Schilling 2017-01-20 13:26 ` Random832 2017-01-20 11:54 ` Tim Bradshaw 1 sibling, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Joerg Schilling @ 2017-01-20 11:24 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 697 bytes --] Nick Downing <downing.nick at gmail.com> wrote: > right... but nevertheless I found it much less useable and I felt a > lot of the tools had rough edges, as well as changing "mkdir > --parents" into "mkdir -p" you had to account for different behaviour > which was in most cases more naive. mkdir introduced the -p option with SunOS-4.0 (Spring 1988). This is long before gmkdir apeared....you need to correct your standoint. Jörg -- EMail:joerg at schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 11:24 ` Joerg Schilling @ 2017-01-20 13:26 ` Random832 2017-01-20 14:23 ` Joerg Schilling 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Random832 @ 2017-01-20 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, Jan 20, 2017, at 06:24, Joerg Schilling wrote: > Nick Downing <downing.nick at gmail.com> wrote: > > > right... but nevertheless I found it much less useable and I felt a > > lot of the tools had rough edges, as well as changing "mkdir > > --parents" into "mkdir -p" you had to account for different behaviour > > which was in most cases more naive. > > mkdir introduced the -p option with SunOS-4.0 (Spring 1988). > This is long before gmkdir apeared....you need to correct your standoint. I think his assertion is that he personally had originally learned the command as "mkdir --parents" [which was and is GNU-only], and had to change to spelling it "-p" when going to non-linux systems, along with some unspecified behavior differences. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 13:26 ` Random832 @ 2017-01-20 14:23 ` Joerg Schilling 2017-01-20 14:29 ` Steve Nickolas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Joerg Schilling @ 2017-01-20 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 809 bytes --] Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote: > I think his assertion is that he personally had originally learned the > command as "mkdir --parents" [which was and is GNU-only], and had to > change to spelling it "-p" when going to non-linux systems, along with > some unspecified behavior differences. This is why I call Linux a system that tries to establich a vendor lock in. Man pages could have been written in a way that makes it obvious that --parents is non-portable, but they rather encourage people to learn gnu long options. Jörg -- EMail:joerg at schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 14:23 ` Joerg Schilling @ 2017-01-20 14:29 ` Steve Nickolas 2017-01-20 15:20 ` Arthur Krewat 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Steve Nickolas @ 2017-01-20 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 890 bytes --] On Fri, 20 Jan 2017, Joerg Schilling wrote: > Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote: > >> I think his assertion is that he personally had originally learned the >> command as "mkdir --parents" [which was and is GNU-only], and had to >> change to spelling it "-p" when going to non-linux systems, along with >> some unspecified behavior differences. > > This is why I call Linux a system that tries to establich a vendor lock in. > > Man pages could have been written in a way that makes it obvious that --parents > is non-portable, but they rather encourage people to learn gnu long options. > > Jörg > > I blame GNU rather than the Linux people. GNU are just as much masters of "embrace, extend, exterminate" as Microsoft. I've thought of trying to build a "GNUless" Linux distribution with a purer Unix feel, but I get hung trying to step myself through the process. -uso. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 14:29 ` Steve Nickolas @ 2017-01-20 15:20 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-20 15:45 ` Andy Kosela 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2017-01-20 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw) I agree. Why would anyone ever write a piece of software that has multiple versions of options, when there's no need for the extra wordy versions? In the mkdir source, there is no conditionals around anything to do with "static struct option const longopts[]" - so there's no environment where they wouldn't exist. From man page for mkdir on a RedHat 6.8 install: * -m, --mode=MODE* set file mode (as in chmod), not a=rwx - umask * -p, --parents* no error if existing, make parent directories as needed * -v, --verbose* print a message for each created directory * -Z, --context=CTX* set the SELinux security context of each created directory to CTX When COREUTILS_CHILD_DEFAULT_ACLS environment variable is set, -p/--parents option respects default umask and ACLs, as it does in Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7 by default --help display this help and exit --version output version information and exit Oh, and an old-man rant: get off my lawn. On 1/20/2017 9:29 AM, Steve Nickolas wrote: > > I blame GNU rather than the Linux people. GNU are just as much > masters of "embrace, extend, exterminate" as Microsoft. > > I've thought of trying to build a "GNUless" Linux distribution with a > purer Unix feel, but I get hung trying to step myself through the > process. > > -uso. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20170120/e871af1b/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 15:20 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2017-01-20 15:45 ` Andy Kosela 2017-01-20 16:30 ` tfb 2017-01-20 20:30 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 0 siblings, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Andy Kosela @ 2017-01-20 15:45 UTC (permalink / raw) On Friday, January 20, 2017, Tim Bradshaw <tfb at tfeb.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tfb at tfeb.org');>> wrote: > > And it's also why they slowly die: their market ends up being people who > have huge critical legacy systems which they need to maintain, not people > who are building new systems. Indeed even the people with the great legacy > chunks of software, when they build new systems, start using the shiny new > platforms, because the shiny young people they hire to do this like the new > platforms. > > > I understand that Linux can still be called a new kid on the block, but it is actually not "a new platform" anymore. It has been deployed (along with FreeBSD) in large corporations for around 20 years now. It really became the Standard OS from embedded world to supercomputers. Personally I do not find this to be a bad thing, because with OS standardization comes uniformity, and I would rather have one true Unix standard than hundreds of incompatible ones. I believe that the future of proprietary UNIX is doomed and the only remaining choices for server operating systems will be Linux and Windows in the near future. If you think about it, the future is already here... --Andy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20170120/f6083763/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 15:45 ` Andy Kosela @ 2017-01-20 16:30 ` tfb 2017-01-20 19:38 ` Nemo 2017-01-20 20:30 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 1 sibling, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: tfb @ 2017-01-20 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw) On 20 Jan 2017, at 15:45, Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote: > > I understand that Linux can still be called a new kid on the block, but it is actually not "a new platform" anymore. It has been deployed (along with FreeBSD) in large corporations for around 20 years now. It really became the Standard OS from embedded world to supercomputers. The people I'm talking about (who might be characterised as 'COBOL shops') are not early adopters: 20 years is about how long it takes for them to decide something is safe. Yes, of course Linux has been everywhere for a long time, but ten years ago it almost certainly was not involved in running your bank account, while today it almost certainly is. > Personally I do not find this to be a bad thing, because with OS standardization comes uniformity, and I would rather have one true Unix standard than hundreds of incompatible ones. 'Linux' and 'OS standardisation' are funny phrases to see in the same sentence. (Note: I work in an exclusively Linux HPC environment: I am not some anti-Linux holdout, I just have previously worked in the above-mentioned environments and I appreciate their needs and fears). I think this is probably off-topic tor TUHS, sorry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20170120/a22b59a5/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 16:30 ` tfb @ 2017-01-20 19:38 ` Nemo 2017-01-21 0:25 ` Tim Bradshaw 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Nemo @ 2017-01-20 19:38 UTC (permalink / raw) On 20 January 2017 at 11:30, <tfb at tfeb.org> wrote (in part): > 'Linux' and 'OS standardisation' are funny phrases to see in the same > sentence. As they say, 'ave a laugh, guv: http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=43781 N. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 19:38 ` Nemo @ 2017-01-21 0:25 ` Tim Bradshaw 2017-01-21 1:58 ` Rico Pajarola 2017-01-21 15:43 ` Nemo 0 siblings, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Tim Bradshaw @ 2017-01-21 0:25 UTC (permalink / raw) On 20 Jan 2017, at 19:38, Nemo <cym224 at gmail.com> wrote: > > As they say, 'ave a laugh, guv: > http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=43781 > You have not understood the problem I was describing I think: things like POSIX or LSB do not solve it: if they did it would be trivial to port <awful mass of scripts> between platforms, and it is not, because <awful mass of scripts> will always rely on behaviour which is outwith the standard, whatever the standard may be. These standards solve the problem of making well-written code portable, but your bank is not held together by well-written code, unfortunately. An interesting approach would be platforms which only supported the standard they purport to conform to (ie there would be no additional functionality at all): such platforms would make porting things more easy, but they would also be mostly indistinguishable from each other and thus eliminate most of the competition between vendors. They would also be impossibly austere of course. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20170121/5661e12b/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-21 0:25 ` Tim Bradshaw @ 2017-01-21 1:58 ` Rico Pajarola 2017-01-21 17:32 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-21 15:43 ` Nemo 1 sibling, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Rico Pajarola @ 2017-01-21 1:58 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 1:25 AM, Tim Bradshaw <tfb at tfeb.org> wrote: > > An interesting approach would be platforms which *only* supported the > standard they purport to conform to (ie there would be no additional > functionality at all): such platforms would make porting things more easy, > but they would also be mostly indistinguishable from each other and thus > eliminate most of the competition between vendors. They would also be > impossibly austere of course. > that's more or less what Solaris is doing, and why the defaults seem archaic to people who've only ever used Linux. You can change the "feel" of the Solaris (by adding/removing/rearranging stuff in $PATH) from SysV (/usr/bin), BSD (/usr/ucb), the "X/Open standard" (/usr/xpg4/bin), to GNU (/usr/gnu/bin). I might have missed some. AIUI /usr/xpg4 mostly exists in order to pass the standards tests ;) I really despised the "messiness" in Linux where the choice was either stable and outdated to the point of being useless (Debian until they got their act together), stable but patched beyond recognition (anything "Enterprise"), or bleeding edge where entire subsystems can get exchanged at any time without warning (anything "Desktop"). I was clinging to real systems like Solaris and FreeBSD, but eventually I gave up and I'm not looking back. The ease of getting stuff to work (hardware and software) greatly outweighs the lack of elegance and the occasional breakage due to unexpected changes. And there's another kind of elegance in being able to boot Linux on any random PC and have at least graphics, network, and storage work out of the box (most of the time anyway. Solaris never stood a chance on that front). Software gets installed with a simple "yum install foo" or "apt-get install foo" command. At some point Solaris also lost the performance race and that was pretty much it. I loved Solaris while it was alive and even when it was on life support. Oracle killing Solaris came hardly as a surprise to anyone. The writing has been on the wall for a while, in bold and blinking. I'm only surprised it took so long... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20170121/6dfb4f11/attachment-0001.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-21 1:58 ` Rico Pajarola @ 2017-01-21 17:32 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-24 3:51 ` Rico Pajarola 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2017-01-21 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Take another look at Solaris 11 - the pkg command is basically the same thing. Install PHP, MYSQL, Apache, update the system, do almost anything. I've booted Solaris 11 on a slew of servers and PC's since it came out. From Intel SATA to LSI SAS, Emulex fiber channel cards, Qlogic fiber cards, Intel 10Gbe NICs, etc. It just "works". While you had to pay attention to the HCL back in the Solaris 7/8/9 and early 10 days, and adjust accordingly, Solaris has been pretty decent in the past few years in terms of hardware compatibility. Except for one horrid instance where the Emulex driver would fail if virtualization was turned on - but in 11.3, that seems to have been fixed (or, the hardware changed, I installed it on newer M630 Dell hardware). For the "desktop" however, I just don't use it as a desktop. Windows won that war for me. As for performance, I'll have to look into that - I remember a while back that Oracle's best practices for it's database was to turn off NUMA under Linux, but not Solaris. Either way, virtualization (VMware mostly) has made that a moot point in many of the environments I administer. On 1/20/2017 8:58 PM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > And there's another kind of elegance in being able to boot Linux on > any random PC and have at least graphics, network, and storage work > out of the box (most of the time anyway. Solaris never stood a chance > on that front). Software gets installed with a simple "yum install > foo" or "apt-get install foo" command. At some point Solaris also lost > the performance race and that was pretty much it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-21 17:32 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2017-01-24 3:51 ` Rico Pajarola 0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Rico Pajarola @ 2017-01-24 3:51 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote: > Take another look at Solaris 11 - the pkg command is basically the same > thing. Install PHP, MYSQL, Apache, update the system, do almost anything. > I've used Solaris 2.5.1, 8, 10, and 11 extensively. The pkg command was cool (and so was blastwave's pkg-get before pkg was incorporated into the base system), but it was always some kind of "poor-mans" yum/apt-get (with occasional manual surgery required to make stuff work). I've booted Solaris 11 on a slew of servers and PC's since it came out. > From Intel SATA to LSI SAS, Emulex fiber channel cards, Qlogic fiber cards, > Intel 10Gbe NICs, etc. that wasn't my experience. HW support in Solaris 11 was orders of magnitude better than older versions, especially (and surprisingly) on laptops, but any random network card or SATA/SAS controller (if it wasn't 3com/Realtek/Intel/LSI) had a good chance of not working out of the box, or at all. Solaris 11 had a lot of cool, even "linux-y" things, but it was too little, too late, and Oracle immediately killed whatever velocity they had when they took over. But at this point, we were already actively getting rid of it anyway (10 was the last version we deployed in production before jumping ship). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20170123/fba255c1/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-21 0:25 ` Tim Bradshaw 2017-01-21 1:58 ` Rico Pajarola @ 2017-01-21 15:43 ` Nemo 1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Nemo @ 2017-01-21 15:43 UTC (permalink / raw) On 20 January 2017 at 19:25, Tim Bradshaw <tfb at tfeb.org> wrote: > On 20 Jan 2017, at 19:38, Nemo <cym224 at gmail.com> wrote: > As they say, 'ave a laugh, guv: > http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=43781 > You have not understood the problem I was describing I think: I did understand. My response was to your comment about Linux and standards in the same sentence. (This was humour, indicated by the phrase 'ave a laugh.) > [...] such platforms would make porting things more easy, but they would > also be mostly indistinguishable from each other and thus eliminate most of > the competition between vendors. Well, I believe that was the original intent of POSIX as far as the Pentagon was concerned. It (and other countries) wanted source that could be recompiled/run on any POSIX box. N. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 15:45 ` Andy Kosela 2017-01-20 16:30 ` tfb @ 2017-01-20 20:30 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2017-01-20 22:30 ` Kay Parker 1 sibling, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2017-01-20 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2622 bytes --] Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote: |On Friday, January 20, 2017, Tim Bradshaw <[1]tfb at tfeb.org[/1]> wrote: \ |And it's also why they slowly die: their market ends up being people \ |who have |huge critical legacy systems which they need to maintain, not people \ |who are building new systems. Indeed even the people with the great \ |legacy chunks |of software, when they build new systems, start using the shiny new \ |platforms, because the shiny young people they hire to do this like \ |the new |platforms. | | [1] javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tfb at tfeb.org'); (Couldn't resist, sorry.) |I understand that Linux can still be called a new kid on the block, \ |but it is actually not "a new platform" anymore. It has been deployed \ |(along with |FreeBSD) in large corporations for around 20 years now. It really \ |became the Standard OS from embedded world to supercomputers. | |Personally I do not find this to be a bad thing, because with OS standardiz\ |ation comes uniformity, and I would rather have one true Unix standard |than hundreds of incompatible ones. I am really glad with the POSIX standard, that, if in doubt, not few members of this list have anticipated in. And if it is that they have thought or implemented the foundations that lead to POSIX. Note that i am really happy with it, but without it nothing but ISO C would be there. And then i would rather boot a Plan9/9front/(9atom) system and adore so much the manuals that have been written by the really good ones. And if just for the spirit from in between the lines. |I believe that the future of proprietary UNIX is doomed and the only \ |remaining choices for server operating systems will be Linux and Windows \ |in the |near future. If you think about it, the future is already here... Not to start throwing with something that stinks, but in practice my resource files from FreeBSD 4.7 are still in use for 10.3. I never setup a server as such until January 2016, and i had a FreeBSD one running via inetd on one afternoon. And in general one thing that i for one would never overestimate is the documentation, and even though Linux has so much improved, the /usr/share isn't there, which is think is a real pity for young programmers, which may possibly never access doc.cat-v.org. Maybe they have a good professor. And the release information of FreeBSD and also OpenBSD really is appreciated so much by someone like me, who has neither time nor interest to stay totally up-to-date regarding Linux kernel and GNU userland development! --steffen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 20:30 ` Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2017-01-20 22:30 ` Kay Parker 2017-01-20 23:50 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Kay Parker @ 2017-01-20 22:30 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3161 bytes --] I'm running fedora25 beside my Linuxmint 18.1 installation. fedora25 means fully featured systemd and wayland on the top of the super fast Linux (kernel) 4.9. Linux thats were the story goes. Solaris etc. just running behind in the past. On Fri, Jan 20, 2017, at 12:30 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote: > |On Friday, January 20, 2017, Tim Bradshaw <[1]tfb at tfeb.org[/1]> wrote: > \ > |And it's also why they slowly die: their market ends up being people \ > |who have > |huge critical legacy systems which they need to maintain, not people \ > |who are building new systems. Indeed even the people with the great \ > |legacy chunks > |of software, when they build new systems, start using the shiny new \ > |platforms, because the shiny young people they hire to do this like \ > |the new > |platforms. > | > | [1] javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tfb at tfeb.org'); > > (Couldn't resist, sorry.) > > |I understand that Linux can still be called a new kid on the block, \ > |but it is actually not "a new platform" anymore. It has been deployed > \ > |(along with > |FreeBSD) in large corporations for around 20 years now. It really \ > |became the Standard OS from embedded world to supercomputers. > | > |Personally I do not find this to be a bad thing, because with OS > standardiz\ > |ation comes uniformity, and I would rather have one true Unix standard > |than hundreds of incompatible ones. > > I am really glad with the POSIX standard, that, if in doubt, not > few members of this list have anticipated in. And if it is that > they have thought or implemented the foundations that lead to > POSIX. Note that i am really happy with it, but without it > nothing but ISO C would be there. And then i would rather boot > a Plan9/9front/(9atom) system and adore so much the manuals that > have been written by the really good ones. And if just for the > spirit from in between the lines. > > |I believe that the future of proprietary UNIX is doomed and the only \ > |remaining choices for server operating systems will be Linux and > Windows \ > |in the > |near future. If you think about it, the future is already here... > > Not to start throwing with something that stinks, but in practice > my resource files from FreeBSD 4.7 are still in use for 10.3. > I never setup a server as such until January 2016, and i had > a FreeBSD one running via inetd on one afternoon. > And in general one thing that i for one would never overestimate > is the documentation, and even though Linux has so much improved, > the /usr/share isn't there, which is think is a real pity for > young programmers, which may possibly never access doc.cat-v.org. > Maybe they have a good professor. And the release information of > FreeBSD and also OpenBSD really is appreciated so much by someone > like me, who has neither time nor interest to stay totally > up-to-date regarding Linux kernel and GNU userland development! > > --steffen -- Kay Parker kayparker at mailite.com -- http://www.fastmail.com - The way an email service should be ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 22:30 ` Kay Parker @ 2017-01-20 23:50 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2017-01-21 0:09 ` Steve Nickolas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2017-01-20 23:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Kay Parker <kayparker at mailite.com> wrote: |I'm running fedora25 beside my Linuxmint 18.1 installation. fedora25 |means fully featured systemd and wayland on the top of the super fast |Linux (kernel) 4.9. |Linux thats were the story goes. Solaris etc. just running behind in the |past. Well i am currently running Alpine on the server (i can't recall the name of the init system they use at the moment, it is what Debian had and Gentoo i think still has; i don't like it, e.g., it cannot perform proper restart if one of the processes fails to stand up again, you have to start them all one by one, then, which is -- let aside how complicated it is to program and maintain such an init system, it is a science! -- mysterious to me given that it gets the dependencies right in normal conditions, and has so much state laying around; and note it will run FreeBSD again at some later time, it was just that i haven't really cared for Linux since i have discovered FreeBSD 4.7, and really felt i need to learn about it again after so and so many years, and then it was 2016, and it was clear what that would mean, and then it was David Bowie, etc. And CRUX-Linux, which is totally underrated, and uses a wonderful unagitated BSD-like approach, i'm looking forward for their new 3.3, in a not too distant future! And VoidLinux, which has a very fine package manager and uses runit, which i think is a really pragmatic, smart, and very small, init system that also is completely underrated. I hope all these systems can survive the very way their developers drive them up the road. I couldn't say, i really love the BSD way, but of course the Linux kernel is _so_ supportive, i really like CRUX. And Void, it is not even graphical no more by default. ArchLinux i have, too, in fact it is my main system since my main machine died. Arch uses systemd. Yes, i don't like systemd. Void is even more surfing the edge than Arch as of today, isn't that amazing? It has a shutdown time of 1 second. Linux wales 4.8.13-1-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Dec 9 07:24:34 CET 2016 x86_64 GNU/Linux Linux irish 4.9.5_1 #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Jan 20 14:48:47 UTC 2017 i686 GNU/Linux --steffen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 23:50 ` Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2017-01-21 0:09 ` Steve Nickolas 2017-01-21 1:03 ` Kurt H Maier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread From: Steve Nickolas @ 2017-01-21 0:09 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 21 Jan 2017, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > Well i am currently running Alpine on the server (i can't recall > the name of the init system they use at the moment, it is what > Debian had and Gentoo i think still has sysvinit? -uso. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-21 0:09 ` Steve Nickolas @ 2017-01-21 1:03 ` Kurt H Maier 0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Kurt H Maier @ 2017-01-21 1:03 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 07:09:00PM -0500, Steve Nickolas wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jan 2017, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > > > Well i am currently running Alpine on the server (i can't recall > > the name of the init system they use at the moment, it is what > > Debian had and Gentoo i think still has > > sysvinit? > > -uso. OpenRC. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC khm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-20 2:00 ` Nick Downing 2017-01-20 11:24 ` Joerg Schilling @ 2017-01-20 11:54 ` Tim Bradshaw 1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Tim Bradshaw @ 2017-01-20 11:54 UTC (permalink / raw) On 20 Jan 2017, at 02:00, Nick Downing <downing.nick at gmail.com> wrote: > > I always found the > Solaris system to be pretty much like stepping back in time. And I do > not really understand why corporations would want to run Solaris when > Linux is vastly more developed. This is actually exactly why they run it, and also what will lead to its (probable) demise. Large commercial organisations are entirely made of systems which were written (or, more likely, constructed from a bunch of large third-party bits held together with locally-written glue) a long time ago, which perform some purpose which is assumed to be critical, and which no-one now understands. They are *assumed* to be critical because no-one dares to poke at them to find out if they really are: if perturbing some system might result in your ATMs not working, you don't, ever, perturb it, even if there is a very good chance that it won't. These systems need to be maintained somehow, which means two things at the OS level and below (it means related but other things above the OS level): the hardware and OS has to be supportable, and the OS has to pass various standards, usually related to security. This in turn means that the HW and OS need to be kept reasonably current. But on top of the OS sits a great mass of code which no-one understands and which certainly was not written by people who understood, well, anything really. So there will very definitely be hard-wired assumptions about things like filesystem layout and the exact behaviour of various tools, and equally definitely there will not be any checks that things are behaving well: the people who write this stuff are not people who check exit codes. So, since you need to deploy new versions of the OS, these new versions need to be *very compatible indeed* with old versions. Technically, this isn't incompatible with adding new features, so long as you don't break the old ones. But in practice the risk of doing so is so high that things tend to get pretty frozen (have you tested that the behaviour of your new 'mkdir' is compatible in every case with the old one, including in cases where the old one fails but the new one might not, because some code somewhere will be relying on that). So new features tend to get added off to the side, leaving the old thing alone. And that's why systems like Solaris seem old-fashioned: they're not old-fashioned, they're just extremely compatible. And it's also why they slowly die: their market ends up being people who have huge critical legacy systems which they need to maintain, not people who are building new systems. Indeed even the people with the great legacy chunks of software, when they build new systems, start using the shiny new platforms, because the shiny young people they hire to do this like the new platforms. Of course, no lessons are ever learned, so these shiny new systems are no more robust than the old ones were, meaning that the currently shiny new platforms they are built on will also gradually deteriorate into the slow death of compatibility (or they won't, and the ATMS will indeed stop working: I am not sure which is the worse outcome) --tim ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap 2017-01-19 8:49 ` Wesley Parish 2017-01-19 14:40 ` Arthur Krewat @ 2017-01-19 18:17 ` Joerg Schilling 1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Joerg Schilling @ 2017-01-19 18:17 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 926 bytes --] Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz> wrote: > I suppose that set of rumours will lead to people shifting to the FOSS versions > of Solaris and SPARC. I would be happy if we had a commonly accepted OSS line for OpenSolaris development. The current problem is that the payers in that game all have commercial interests and removed many parts from the sources that they believe are not needed anymore. Another problem is that the closed source i18n parts of libc in Illumos have been replaced by a FreeBSD implementation version that is not POSIX compliant. So for today, there is development but only in order to meet particular interests. Jörg -- EMail:joerg at schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap @ 2017-01-20 14:58 Rudi Blom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread From: Rudi Blom @ 2017-01-20 14:58 UTC (permalink / raw) I'm a bit puzzled, but then I only ever worked with some version of Ultrix and an AT&T flavour of UNIX in Philips, SCO 3.2V4.2 (OpenServer 3ish), DEC Digital UNIX, Tru64, HP-UX 1123/11.31 and only ever used "mkdir -p". Some differences in the various versions are easily solved in scripts, like shown below. Not the best of examples, but easy. Getting it to work on a linux flavour wouldn't be too difficult :-) OS_TYPE=`uname -n` case "${OS_TYPE}" in "OSF1") PATH=".:/etc:/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/xyz/shell:/xyz/appl/unix/bin:/xyz/utils:" TZ="THA-7" ;; "HP-UX") PATH=".:/etc:/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/contrib/bin:/xyz/field/scripts:/xyz/shell:/xyz/appl/unix/bin:/xyz/utils:" TZ="TST-7" ;; *) echo "${OS_TYPE} unknown, exit" exit 1 ;; esac ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2017-01-24 3:51 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 27+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2017-01-19 7:53 [TUHS] Oracle euthanizes Solaris 12, expunging it from roadmap Kay Parker 2017-01-19 8:49 ` Wesley Parish 2017-01-19 14:40 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-19 16:39 ` Tim Bradshaw 2017-01-19 17:02 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-20 2:00 ` Nick Downing 2017-01-20 11:24 ` Joerg Schilling 2017-01-20 13:26 ` Random832 2017-01-20 14:23 ` Joerg Schilling 2017-01-20 14:29 ` Steve Nickolas 2017-01-20 15:20 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-20 15:45 ` Andy Kosela 2017-01-20 16:30 ` tfb 2017-01-20 19:38 ` Nemo 2017-01-21 0:25 ` Tim Bradshaw 2017-01-21 1:58 ` Rico Pajarola 2017-01-21 17:32 ` Arthur Krewat 2017-01-24 3:51 ` Rico Pajarola 2017-01-21 15:43 ` Nemo 2017-01-20 20:30 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2017-01-20 22:30 ` Kay Parker 2017-01-20 23:50 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2017-01-21 0:09 ` Steve Nickolas 2017-01-21 1:03 ` Kurt H Maier 2017-01-20 11:54 ` Tim Bradshaw 2017-01-19 18:17 ` Joerg Schilling 2017-01-20 14:58 Rudi Blom
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