[9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Antonin]

Hello all,

I am thinking about buying of IBM ThinkPad R60e for playing with Plan
9 at home.
Does anybody know if it is compatible with Plan 9?
( mainly integrated graphics and ethernet card, I don't care about
wifi )

Antonin

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Antonin]

That's a pity. Without a network it is useless for me. :-(
Thank you for your reply.

Antonin

Markus Sonderegger napsal:
> Hello,
>
> Integrated graphics work fine for me, but the ethernet card don't work. But I think there's a
> driver in progress.
>
> Regards

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Federico Benavento]

you can always run Plan 9 on a vm like qemu or vmware.

On 5/10/07, Antonin <antonin.vecera@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's a pity. Without a network it is useless for me. :-(
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> Antonin
>
> Markus Sonderegger napsal:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Integrated graphics work fine for me, but the ethernet card don't work. But I think there's a
> > driver in progress.
> >
> > Regards
>


-- 
Federico G. Benavento

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Antonin]

Yes, I know...
I decided to buy a pc, which will run my fs/auth/cpu server nativly
(not emulated).

Antonin

Federico Benavento napsal:
> you can always run Plan 9 on a vm like qemu or vmware.
>
> On 5/10/07, Antonin <antonin.vecera@gmail.com> wrote:
> > That's a pity. Without a network it is useless for me. :-(
> > Thank you for your reply.
> >
> > Antonin
> >
> > Markus Sonderegger napsal:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > Integrated graphics work fine for me, but the ethernet card don't work. But I think there's a
> > > driver in progress.
> > >
> > > Regards
> >
>
>
> --
> Federico G. Benavento

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Markus Sonderegger]

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Hello,

Integrated graphics work fine for me, but the ethernet card don't work. But I think there's a
driver in progress.

Regards

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3999 bytes --]

From: Antonin <antonin.vecera@gmail.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:34:14 GMT
Message-ID: <1178778197.762355.170920@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>

Hello all,

I am thinking about buying of IBM ThinkPad R60e for playing with Plan
9 at home.
Does anybody know if it is compatible with Plan 9?
( mainly integrated graphics and ethernet card, I don't care about
wifi )

Antonin

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[erik quanstrom]

it's a "Broadcom Integrated BCM 5752".  is someone working on this?
i almost started on this one until i realized my wife was not about to
give up her thinkpad. ;-)

the linux driver (tg3) is daunting.  12000 lines to drive an ethernet card.
yikes!

i think some people use 8139-based cardbus adapters.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Gabriel Diaz]

hello

i used to use one of those cards until it crashed, a "corporative"
change made me to change the notebook to a new brand, so i'll never
know what was happening :(, i will try plan9 in the compaq nc8430
soon, it has a broadcom card too, but i hope this time the realtek
card works.

gabi


On 5/10/07, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
> it's a "Broadcom Integrated BCM 5752".  is someone working on this?
> i almost started on this one until i realized my wife was not about to
> give up her thinkpad. ;-)
>
> the linux driver (tg3) is daunting.  12000 lines to drive an ethernet card.
> yikes!
>
> i think some people use 8139-based cardbus adapters.
>
> - erik
>

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Markus Sonderegger]

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My machine uses the "Broadcom BCM5751M". In the wiki i saw that jmk and 
Georg Gensure where working on this

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3868 bytes --]

From: erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:36:03 -0400
Message-ID: <86d1cfb79c7980592c313a29baa03beb@coraid.com>

it's a "Broadcom Integrated BCM 5752".  is someone working on this?
i almost started on this one until i realized my wife was not about to
give up her thinkpad. ;-)

the linux driver (tg3) is daunting.  12000 lines to drive an ethernet card.
yikes!

i think some people use 8139-based cardbus adapters.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[C H Forsyth]

> the linux driver (tg3) is daunting.  12000 lines to drive an ethernet card.
> yikes!

they often do that. it's usually just silly.

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[erik quanstrom]

i wouldn't mind but with the nonexistance of broadcomm documentation,
you have to crib from the linux or bsd drivers  (usually both).

hey, wasn't the whole linux 0.10 kernel just ~10,000 lines of code?

oh, well.  time to read /sys/src/cmd/aux/vga/adventure again. ;-)

the troll laughs uproariously.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[C H Forsyth]

> i wouldn't mind but with the nonexistance of broadcomm documentation,
> you have to crib from the linux or bsd drivers  (usually both).

i know. it's pathetic.  ``why, this is Hell, nor am I out of it. ...''

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Devon H. O'Dell]

2007/5/10, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com>:
> i wouldn't mind but with the nonexistance of broadcomm documentation,
> you have to crib from the linux or bsd drivers  (usually both).

I have the documentation on all 57xx serverworks chipsets and you
still have to crib from the linux driver for errata. I can verify
validity and work on this driver, but am hesitant to start from
scratch due to theorized existence of partially working code.

--dho

> hey, wasn't the whole linux 0.10 kernel just ~10,000 lines of code?
>
> oh, well.  time to read /sys/src/cmd/aux/vga/adventure again. ;-)
>
> the troll laughs uproariously.
>
> - erik
>

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Uriel]

There have been at least two (known to some) broadcom drivers for at
least a year, it is *appalling* that none of this code has been
released so far.

To expect people to duplicate existing work is ridiculous and stupid.

uriel

On 5/10/07, Devon H. O'Dell <devon.odell@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2007/5/10, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com>:
> > i wouldn't mind but with the nonexistance of broadcomm documentation,
> > you have to crib from the linux or bsd drivers  (usually both).
>
> I have the documentation on all 57xx serverworks chipsets and you
> still have to crib from the linux driver for errata. I can verify
> validity and work on this driver, but am hesitant to start from
> scratch due to theorized existence of partially working code.
>
> --dho
>
> > hey, wasn't the whole linux 0.10 kernel just ~10,000 lines of code?
> >
> > oh, well.  time to read /sys/src/cmd/aux/vga/adventure again. ;-)
> >
> > the troll laughs uproariously.
> >
> > - erik
> >
>

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Vester Thacker]

On 5/11/07, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> To expect people to duplicate existing work is ridiculous and stupid.

Providing negative criticism without recommending a solution is not
going to improve the situation. Consider contacting the individuals
involved directly, organize a meeting, or start another thread to
address the issue.

Any one involved with writing a broadcom driver care to kickoff a discussion?

HTH,
Vester

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> Any one involved with writing a broadcom driver care to kickoff a discussion?

jmk sent me his work-in-progress driver code.  I started work on it on
my Dell Latitude D610, but cardbus driver issues got in the way.  By
the time I got close to resolving that, the laptop got replaced.

Meanwhile, I'm so pissed off with Broadcom's attitude that I just
refuse to use their hardware any more.  I have enough spare Realtek
and Via PCI cards that it's not a problem for me right now.

What I'm more interested in is getting the supported hardware list
up-to-date for PCMCIA and Cardbus Ethernet cards.


--lyndon

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente]

Fans:

I am gonna write some broadcom drivers for the 4411 chipset. I am also
looking forward to write some wireless drivers.

Broadcom has some reasons not to release their specs... They made a
bad marketing/engineering/client decission. Many of their chipsets are
used by the US military. They then have "public" drivers for the
masses and the ones with "military" functions.

I know for sure that at least the USAF uses _a lot_ of broadcom
chipsets on critical comm.

I'd like to know about those of you that have a broadcom chipset...
And if you would be willing to test my driver attempts...

I think we really have to work on hardware support. There is another
not_so_good OS around being a mainstream choice because of its
_impressive_ hardware support... It is not about being a lot of users,
but being able to use plan 9 (or inferno) everywhere we want.

Cheers!

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Markus Sonderegger]

>  I'd like to know about those of you that have a broadcom chipset...
>  And if you would be willing to test my driver attempts...

Yeap, I'm willed to test your drivers.

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Steve Simon]

> I'd like to know about those of you that have a broadcom chipset...
> And if you would be willing to test my driver attempts...

I have access to many machines containing Broadcom NetXtreme crads
which I believe are BCM4401.

I would be happy to do a bit of testing.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Uriel]

On 5/11/07, Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/11/07, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > To expect people to duplicate existing work is ridiculous and stupid.
>
> Providing negative criticism without recommending a solution is not
> going to improve the situation.

How many times people need to be told to put their damned code in sources?
Or is this such a totally crazy thing to ask of a supposedly open
source project?

Or is asking people to do 9fs + cp(1) too much? Of course it would be
better if people actually posted a short comment about their work to
9fans, but I can do even without that as long as people puts the
damned code somewhere where others can find it.

Because it is not the first, second or third time we have to go
through this ridiculous game. It was embarrassing enough to have
people submit one GSoC proposal after another where we had to tell
them "oh, I'm sorry, that is already done, it is just that whoever did
it has not bothered to release the code so far, please come up with
another project".

uriel

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> How many times people need to be told to put their damned code in sources?
> Or is this such a totally crazy thing to ask of a supposedly open
> source project?

Maybe their damned code isn't ready to ship yet?

I think what you're really bitching about is the lack of an "active projects" list.

The problem with advertising that you are working on something is the
endless stream of "are we there yet?" messages that result.

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Uriel]

On 5/11/07, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
> > How many times people need to be told to put their damned code in sources?
> > Or is this such a totally crazy thing to ask of a supposedly open
> > source project?
>
> Maybe their damned code isn't ready to ship yet?

What is "ready to ship"? and if it is not "ready to ship" and is not
released there is no way in hell anyone else is going to help make it
"ready to ship".

> I think what you're really bitching about is the lack of an "active projects" list.

That would be nice, but is secondary.

> The problem with advertising that you are working on something is the
> endless stream of "are we there yet?" messages that result.

And that problem goes away if people actually puts their damned code
somewhere where people can see it, and they can 1) see it for
themselves 2) try it for themselves 3) fix/finish it by themselves

As things are we have random people showing up and asking "I would
like to work in implementing Foo" "someone is already working on it"
"who?" "we are not sure" "where is the code?" "it is not released"
"what is the status?" "we don't know" - the interested potential
contributor goes away frustrated and pissed off.

This could be simply be avoided if one was able to point to wherever
they can find the latest code and they can figure out whatever it
works or whatever they can fix it or not on their own.

The current madness doesn't avoid the "are we there yet?" messages, it
only makes them worse. The OHCI/USB 2.0 drivers are a good example of
this, I have lost count of how many people have been rumoured to have
worked on that, and I don't think anybody has a clue of really what
the status is and what still needs to be done.

uriel

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> This could be simply be avoided if one was able to point to wherever
> they can find the latest code and they can figure out whatever it
> works or whatever they can fix it or not on their own.

No it doesn't.  Me putting up my development code won't do anyone any
good, and will proactively slow me down because I have answer
questions about 'why doesn't this compile?  what the f*** are you
doing here?  where is this function you call (that I haven't written
yet)?'  etc.  Even ignoring those questions takes time.

But it would be useful to be able to hoist a flag saying 'I am
working on all things related to IMAP right now, so if you're planning
to bugger around with that code, please drop me a note so we can let
each other know where we're stepping on each other.'

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Uriel]

On 5/11/07, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
> > This could be simply be avoided if one was able to point to wherever
> > they can find the latest code and they can figure out whatever it
> > works or whatever they can fix it or not on their own.
>
> No it doesn't.  Me putting up my development code won't do anyone any
> good,

This is patently false as I explained in my email, making the code
available answers most questions by itself and shifts the burden to
whoever is interested in the code to deal with it on their own.

> and will proactively slow me down because I have answer
> questions about 'why doesn't this compile?  what the f*** are you
> doing here?  where is this function you call (that I haven't written
> yet)?'  etc.  Even ignoring those questions takes time.

Has this ever really been a problem or it is pure speculation? And to
be honest, if you want to dump your code in a random sources/contrib
dir without providing any contact email address I would still be quite
happy with that.

> But it would be useful to be able to hoist a flag saying 'I am
> working on all things related to IMAP right now, so if you're planning
> to bugger around with that code, please drop me a note so we can let
> each other know where we're stepping on each other.'

First you ask not to be bothered by anyone, and now you want people to
email you so you can "let each other know where we're stepping on each
other.'" I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.

Plan 9 is the only "open source" project where this kind of ridiculous
practices exist.  Why on earth Plan 9 has to be different and drive
everyone around crazy is beyond me.

uriel

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

>> and will proactively slow me down because I have answer
>> questions about 'why doesn't this compile?  what the f*** are you
>> doing here?  where is this function you call (that I haven't written
>> yet)?'  etc.  Even ignoring those questions takes time.
> 
> Has this ever really been a problem or it is pure speculation?

This is based on many years of hands-on experience.

> First you ask not to be bothered by anyone, and now you want people to
> email you so you can "let each other know where we're stepping on each
> other.'" I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.

Continuing the IMAP analogy, for me to put up fragments if client-side
IMAP message caching code would not do any good to anyone who isn't
intimately familiar with that specific problem space.  Typically the
would-be downloader sees "IMAP" and latches on with the hope they will
find a tool that will help them sort and filter their mail.  But when
they double-click on imcache.c they get some strange pop-up dialog
from Windows instead of the IMAP email client they were expecting.
Avoiding that requires an access filter.  A semantic filter that keeps
the programming-naive away is a wonderful idea -- spam filtering for
programmer wannabes :-) -- but it aint out there yet.  This could be a
work-in-progress that you could keep on /n/sources/contrib.
Meanwhile, I want to keep my IMAP code within the group of people I
know actually *know* how IMAP works, so that I can actually develop
the code.

I don't have a problem with releasing code for people to look at, play
with, compile, sell, whatever.  That's why my escaped goo has a BSD
license on it.  But I'm not going to put out any work I create unless
and until I (I, *I*, *me*, not anyone else) decides it's ready to be
seen in public.  And nobody (*NO*body) has the right to tell me
otherwise.

> Plan 9 is the only "open source" project where this kind of ridiculous
> practices exist.  Why on earth Plan 9 has to be different and drive
> everyone around crazy is beyond me.

Maybe we aren't trying to solve penis envy?

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Uriel]

> Continuing the IMAP analogy, for me to put up fragments if client-side
> IMAP message caching code would not do any good to anyone who isn't
> intimately familiar with that specific problem space.  Typically the
> would-be downloader sees "IMAP" and latches on with the hope they will
> find a tool that will help them sort and filter their mail.  But when
> they double-click on imcache.c they get some strange pop-up dialog
> from Windows instead of the IMAP email client they were expecting.
> Avoiding that requires an access filter.

Besides how ridiculous your example might be, *if* it was true it
would apply as much to unfinished code as to "ready to ship" code, and
would be an argument to *never* release any code.

If you don't want to release any code for whatever reason, fine. But
don't say "it is because it is not ready to ship" and then make up
ridiculous arguments that if taken seriously apply as much to code
"ready to ship" as to anything else.

As you said, it is your code and you can do with it whatever the hell
you like, but if you are going to give excuses for not releasing it at
least be minimally intellectually honest.

And as I said, if you want to release your code anonymously and not
provide any contact email address with it, that is fine by me.

> > Plan 9 is the only "open source" project where this kind of ridiculous
> > practices exist.  Why on earth Plan 9 has to be different and drive
> > everyone around crazy is beyond me.
>
> Maybe we aren't trying to solve penis envy?

I'm starting to suspect that maybe nobody cares about the future of Plan 9.

uriel

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[lucio]

> I'm starting to suspect that maybe nobody cares about the future of Plan 9.

You could not be more mistaken.  Do you seriously believe that your
ranting is going to save Plan 9?  If you do, you might want to
consider that many of us do not believe in the "Cathedral vs Bazaar"
approach to computer programming.  And of these infidels, some happen
to be those who created and nursed Plan 9 to where it is today.

++L

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Uriel]

On 5/11/07, lucio@proxima.alt.za <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
> > I'm starting to suspect that maybe nobody cares about the future of Plan 9.
>
> You could not be more mistaken.  Do you seriously believe that your
> ranting is going to save Plan 9?  If you do, you might want to
> consider that many of us do not believe in the "Cathedral vs Bazaar"
> approach to computer programming.  And of these infidels, some happen
> to be those who created and nursed Plan 9 to where it is today.

I have not even read the god damned "Cathedral and Bazaar" book. But I
have read The Mythical Man Month and anything by Kernighan (and the
rest of the 1127 gang) I could find anywhere, including things like:

"Design and build software, even operating systems, to be tried early,
ideally within weeks."

-- The Bell System Technical Journal. Bell Laboratories. M. D. McIlroy,
E.  N. Pinson, and B. A. Tague. "Unix Time-Sharing System Forward" 1978.
57 (6, part 2). p. 1902.

It is beyond me how anyone expects things to be "tried early" if the
code remains locked up who knows where for years. The "release early,
release often" open source mantra trivially follows from this
principle.

In any case, it is clear that no matter how much we hate open source
and open source projects, Plan 9 needs an open source community if it
is going to survive, and if we continue to display total contempt even
towards its most basic practices Plan 9 will continue to be ignored by
the open source community and will wither and die (if it is not dead
already).

Seen somewhere earlier today (nick name removed because apparently no
one dears to criticize in public):

12:05 < XXXX> I find quite frustrating to start a project that is
already done...
12:05 < XXXX> To look for a driver that is already there...
12:05 < XXXX> To have an idea that someone else is doing...
12:06  * XXXX grrrrsss and rants...
12:06 < uriel> talking about 9fans?
12:06 < XXXX> Of course.
12:11 < XXXX> [sources/contrib] is great, as long as people put their
work there...
12:11 < XXXX> And an INDEX...

uriel

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[lucio]

> Plan 9 needs an open source community if it
> is going to survive

You keep harping.  Where is the evidence?

++L

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[lucio]

> 12:05 < XXXX> I find quite frustrating to start a project that is
> already done...

Rather than pleased that something wanted is already available?
Please spare me the whinging and rather admit, both of you here, that
Plan 9 is not ripe for those who seek to stand on the shoulders of
giants, not to see further, but to be noticed from a distance.

> 12:05 < XXXX> To look for a driver that is already there...
> 12:05 < XXXX> To have an idea that someone else is doing...

Asking tends to solicit replies.  Is it our fault that we aren't
exactly interested in using IRC?

> 12:06  * XXXX grrrrsss and rants...
> 12:06 < uriel> talking about 9fans?
> 12:06 < XXXX> Of course.
> 12:11 < XXXX> [sources/contrib] is great, as long as people put their
> work there...
> 12:11 < XXXX> And an INDEX...

No one has ever stopped anyone from setting up a CVS repository or
anything else that might be more useful than sources.  But the reality
is that Uriel and colleagues are looking for a platform for fame and
fortune.  Sadly, Plan 9 is not "American Idol" and those who really do
contribute are concentrating on their tasks instead of, as Uriel would
like, on making Plan 9 leave up to popularistic expectations.

My take: "thank fuck!"

++L

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente]

I am gona put the face to those XXXX, lucio.

I am not looking for fame, I am looking to get some hardware working.
The system didn't have those drivers, so I googled, I asked and
perhaps I asked the wrong place.

Ok...Starting several projects, even if they are already done, has
tought very interesting and cool things :D But sometimes you can start
to think about something else if you can stop worrying about your sata
drive, your vga card and your network card. I don't like the sensation
of starting something and then, some time after that, getting a
message saying "well I did that last eon"...

Probably I asked in the wrong places in the beginning. I've noticed
that many members of this community do not use IRC.

Everybody is free to do whatever suits with their code. I find
sources/contrib a good thing, but I have also noticed that there are
things missing there. Someone looks for a driver, the driver isn't
there... Then looks in 9fans... Ask in irc.. Nobody answers... Until
you are facing some problem and ask, a couple of weeks before... It is
magic, someone had done that before...

All I want... Is world peace, universal love and no child never ever
left behind.

Bah, It doesn't matter anymore... It is just that I don't feel useful
if someone else tells me that has done my work a long time ago... It
is like blowing in a pinholed baloon... It will never grow.

I am sorry If my complaint offends someone.

Cheers!


On 5/11/07, lucio@proxima.alt.za <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
> > 12:05 < XXXX> I find quite frustrating to start a project that is
> > already done...
>
> Rather than pleased that something wanted is already available?
> Please spare me the whinging and rather admit, both of you here, that
> Plan 9 is not ripe for those who seek to stand on the shoulders of
> giants, not to see further, but to be noticed from a distance.
>
> > 12:05 < XXXX> To look for a driver that is already there...
> > 12:05 < XXXX> To have an idea that someone else is doing...
>
> Asking tends to solicit replies.  Is it our fault that we aren't
> exactly interested in using IRC?
>
> > 12:06  * XXXX grrrrsss and rants...
> > 12:06 < uriel> talking about 9fans?
> > 12:06 < XXXX> Of course.
> > 12:11 < XXXX> [sources/contrib] is great, as long as people put their
> > work there...
> > 12:11 < XXXX> And an INDEX...
>
> No one has ever stopped anyone from setting up a CVS repository or
> anything else that might be more useful than sources.  But the reality
> is that Uriel and colleagues are looking for a platform for fame and
> fortune.  Sadly, Plan 9 is not "American Idol" and those who really do
> contribute are concentrating on their tasks instead of, as Uriel would
> like, on making Plan 9 leave up to popularistic expectations.
>
> My take: "thank fuck!"
>
> ++L
>
>

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[lucio]

> I am gona put the face to those XXXX, lucio.
> 
> I am not looking for fame, I am looking to get some hardware working.
> The system didn't have those drivers, so I googled, I asked and
> perhaps I asked the wrong place.

Welcome.  And thank you for a refreshingly honest response.

++L

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[lucio]

> I am sorry If my complaint offends someone.

Quite unlikely, we're adults here.  Thank you for not letting Uriel
continue his game.  By the way, was he helpful to you in any way?

++L

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Tom Lieber]

I'm new here, so I may be off-base due to inexperience. I just don't
see why there is any problem with, every once in a while, copying
works-in-progress to sources with a README like:

"This is NOT DONE. This is for those who are curious about the status
of the project. I'm not looking for contributors." or, if you're
feeling adventurous, "This is NOT DONE. This is for those who are
curious about the status of the project. If you want to contribute,
contact me and we can exchange patches. If there's community interest
in adding to the code, we can see about setting up an RCS."

The whole problem with uploading code seems to be an issue with trusting others.

[Per Nerenberg's remarks.] Even if the code isn't 'ready,' with README
files as above, people shouldn't harbor much resentment when
incomplete code breaks their computer, and they shouldn't laugh at you
for embarrassing coding errors. If you say "don't contact me!" and
someone contacts you, it's because they didn't read the notes, or they
aren't very good at following protocol. I haven't noticed many people
that seem that way on the mailing list. Am I wrong? Can we not trust
others here? Were your bad experiences with the Plan 9 community, or
with the open source community at large?

Uploading your source is as good a way to "hoist a flag" as any I can
think of, and it has side-benefits for the curious or needy. I don't
expect anyone should feel required to make their code available (which
I feel is different from "releasing" the code), just that it would
make life easier for some if this were the exception instead of the
rule. Everyone always has the choice.

[Per Lalonde's remarks.] The point isn't always to make collaboration
possible. If someone wants to see the status of the code, or modify it
locally to solve a problem, then if the code is somewhere they can
access, this is possible. When it is hidden, nobody can benefit from
it in the slightest. If you publish the code and solicit patches, and
patches become hard to keep track of, that's a really good indicator
that the project is too important to not have a public RCS somewhere,
or that you should ask people to stop sending patches because it
doesn't suit your development style.

If you can't trust the community to even respect requests in your
README, what can you rely on?

I don't know about "saving Plan 9" because I have only a few dozen
hours reading the papers and using it myself. All I know is that when
I become familiar enough with the system to want to modify or improve
it, the more nearly-complete code there is available, the better
training wheels I'll have. The more broken, incomplete, and
horribly-styled code I can look at, the more lessons I can learn.

Sincerely,

Tom Lieber
http://AllTom.com/
http://GadgetLife.org/

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[lucio]

> If you can't trust the community to even respect requests in your
> README, what can you rely on?

Well, whereas I can agree with you that publication could be
beneficial, you have to grant that no one should be told when and
where to publish.  It's a simple privacy issue and there are
definitely two opposing points of view involved.

Don't believe the rationalisations, consider instead the individual
objectives.  Who are the real contributors and who are the limelight
seekers?  Plan 9 seems to be resisting a swing from elitism to
communism.  Who will gain the most from the swing when the reality
check shows that it has been from a meritocracy to mediocrity?

++L

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Dave Lukes]

>  But the reality is that Uriel and colleagues are looking for a
>  platform for fame and fortune.

I think you're being gratuitously cruel.

OTOH I _do_ think that some people around here
are uncertain enough about their own opinions that
they subconsciously believe that approbation == excellence
and thus waste effort trying to convince others
that plan9 is Really Good when they are
really trying to convince themselves.

I, OTOH suffer from no such problem:
I _know_ I'm right*.
If anything, I suffer from the opposite delusion:
I own a MacBook (unpopular) but not an iPod (popular)
and I am deeply distrustful of popularity
as a measure of anything other than popularity.

>  Sadly, Plan 9 is not "American Idol"

That's right: we're not all tone-deaf braindead egomaniacs.

D.


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Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[erik quanstrom]

Dear Sirs,

I believe I have recieved this email in error.

Erik Quanstrom

> ********************************************************************
> This e-mail and files transmitted with it are confidential. If you 
> have received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by
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Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[matt]

They were very helpful when I phoned them. I had no idea who I was 
phoning so it was a pleasant surprise when I got put through somehow to 
Dave Lukes and we had quite the chat!

let's hear it for socially enabling disclaimers

matt

>Dear Sirs,
>
>I believe I have recieved this email in error.
>
>Erik Quanstrom
>
>  
>
>>********************************************************************
>>This e-mail and files transmitted with it are confidential. If you 
>>have received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by
>>return email or telephone +44 (0)207398 0207. You are not authorised
>>to, and must not, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message
>>or any part of it.
>>********************************************************************
>>    
>>
>
>  
>

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Dave Lukes]

erik quanstrom wrote:
> Dear Sirs,
>
> I believe I have recieved this email in error.
>
> Erik Quanstrom
>
>   
>> ********************************************************************
>> This e-mail and files transmitted with it are confidential. If you 
>> have received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by
>> return email or telephone +44 (0)207398 0207. You are not authorised
>> to, and must not, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message
>> or any part of it.
>> ********************************************************************
>>     
OK OK, total corporate humiliation has now been achieved:-~.

I'll subscribe from a slightly more civilised address.


DaveL

P.S. "'i' before 'e' except after 'c'":-).



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Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[erik quanstrom]

sorry.  the irony was just too great to pass up. ;-)

i noticed that spelling error.  i could claim it was
part of the joke, but it's just bad spelling.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[W B Hacker]

Dave Lukes wrote:
>>  But the reality is that Uriel and colleagues are looking for a
>>  platform for fame and fortune.
> 
> I think you're being gratuitously cruel.
> 
> OTOH I _do_ think that some people around here
> are uncertain enough about their own opinions that
> they subconsciously believe that approbation == excellence
> and thus waste effort trying to convince others
> that plan9 is Really Good when they are
> really trying to convince themselves.
> 
> I, OTOH suffer from no such problem:
> I _know_ I'm right*.
> If anything, I suffer from the opposite delusion:
> I own a MacBook (unpopular) but not an iPod (popular)
> and I am deeply distrustful of popularity
> as a measure of anything other than popularity.
> 
>>  Sadly, Plan 9 is not "American Idol"
> 
> That's right: we're not all tone-deaf braindead egomaniacs.
> 
> D.
> 

Not yet. (PowerBook and totally uncomputerized vintage Marantz audio gear).

'Nam and things that make loud noises took care of the tone-deaf part long ago.

Anyone here will attest I'm diligently working on the 'brain dead' part as well.

And I was *born* an egomaniac...

Ipse dixit.

;-)

But 'Not guilty' to yet being convinced - in any direction, really, w/r Plan9.

Still wading through the chaff.

Bill

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[lucio]

> That's right: we're not all tone-deaf braindead egomaniacs.

Yeah.  I'm the only one!

++L

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Russ Cox]

About a month ago I changed my mail filters
to drop all mail from Uriel, because, as Lyndon
points out, even ignoring those posts takes time.

I still see the backscatter of other people replying
to Uriel, so I know he's still there, but I've been pretty
happy with the results so far.  And judging from
the tone of the backscatter, everyone else would
be too.

Just a thought.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9?

[Paul Lalonde]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


On May 10, 2007, at 10:13 PM, Uriel wrote:
> And that problem goes away if people actually puts their damned code
> somewhere where people can see it, and they can 1) see it for
> themselves 2) try it for themselves 3) fix/finish it by themselves

It's a step harder than "just dropping it on sources".  For all its  
utility, sources is no revision control system.
Collaboration without (semi-)automatic change tracking and  
integration is an exercise in frustration, even with well-meaning  
submissions.  The typical open source cvs process works well for  
patches, but is painful for reviewing substantial changes.

In my day job we use Perforce.  We have piles of (distributed)  
engineers banging on closely related code.  Branching is a pain, but  
the integration process is smooth and easy, and we have automated  
review tools built on it.  We tried subversion for a while, but found  
quickly that the reverse was done: branching was trivial, but  
integration was stunningly painful - you had to manually track what  
had been integrated and what hadn't; there were some scripts to  
automate some of that, but they were weak.  SVN, and all the other  
open-source RCSs out there seem built for the "integrate infrequently  
everything in that branch" model, which (IM(ns)HO) doesn't match a  
less-distributed model so well.

I don't want to collaborate with people when the cost of  
collaboration is continuous painful integrates.  I'll take bug fixes  
easily enough, but it's hard to make forward progress on a small yet  
complex code base in a distributed space without the confidence  
afforded by rock-solid RCS tools.  I wish we had a modern one on  
Plan9, but I'm not going to be the one to write it (although I  
started a Perforce filesystem, it's crufty and weak, and needs to be  
rebuilt now that I understand 9P better).

Paul

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