* [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? @ 2007-05-10 8:34 Antonin 2007-05-10 12:14 ` Antonin 2007-05-10 13:45 ` Markus Sonderegger 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Antonin @ 2007-05-10 8:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Hello all, I am thinking about buying of IBM ThinkPad R60e for playing with Plan 9 at home. Does anybody know if it is compatible with Plan 9? ( mainly integrated graphics and ethernet card, I don't care about wifi ) Antonin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 8:34 [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? Antonin @ 2007-05-10 12:14 ` Antonin 2007-05-10 12:25 ` Federico Benavento 2007-05-10 13:33 ` Antonin 2007-05-10 13:45 ` Markus Sonderegger 1 sibling, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Antonin @ 2007-05-10 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans That's a pity. Without a network it is useless for me. :-( Thank you for your reply. Antonin Markus Sonderegger napsal: > Hello, > > Integrated graphics work fine for me, but the ethernet card don't work. But I think there's a > driver in progress. > > Regards ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 12:14 ` Antonin @ 2007-05-10 12:25 ` Federico Benavento 2007-05-10 13:33 ` Antonin 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Federico Benavento @ 2007-05-10 12:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs you can always run Plan 9 on a vm like qemu or vmware. On 5/10/07, Antonin <antonin.vecera@gmail.com> wrote: > That's a pity. Without a network it is useless for me. :-( > Thank you for your reply. > > Antonin > > Markus Sonderegger napsal: > > Hello, > > > > Integrated graphics work fine for me, but the ethernet card don't work. But I think there's a > > driver in progress. > > > > Regards > -- Federico G. Benavento ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 12:14 ` Antonin 2007-05-10 12:25 ` Federico Benavento @ 2007-05-10 13:33 ` Antonin 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Antonin @ 2007-05-10 13:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Yes, I know... I decided to buy a pc, which will run my fs/auth/cpu server nativly (not emulated). Antonin Federico Benavento napsal: > you can always run Plan 9 on a vm like qemu or vmware. > > On 5/10/07, Antonin <antonin.vecera@gmail.com> wrote: > > That's a pity. Without a network it is useless for me. :-( > > Thank you for your reply. > > > > Antonin > > > > Markus Sonderegger napsal: > > > Hello, > > > > > > Integrated graphics work fine for me, but the ethernet card don't work. But I think there's a > > > driver in progress. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > -- > Federico G. Benavento ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 8:34 [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? Antonin 2007-05-10 12:14 ` Antonin @ 2007-05-10 13:45 ` Markus Sonderegger 2007-05-10 12:36 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Markus Sonderegger @ 2007-05-10 13:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 137 bytes --] Hello, Integrated graphics work fine for me, but the ethernet card don't work. But I think there's a driver in progress. Regards [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3999 bytes --] From: Antonin <antonin.vecera@gmail.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:34:14 GMT Message-ID: <1178778197.762355.170920@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Hello all, I am thinking about buying of IBM ThinkPad R60e for playing with Plan 9 at home. Does anybody know if it is compatible with Plan 9? ( mainly integrated graphics and ethernet card, I don't care about wifi ) Antonin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 13:45 ` Markus Sonderegger @ 2007-05-10 12:36 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-10 14:35 ` Gabriel Diaz 2007-05-10 15:18 ` Markus Sonderegger 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-10 12:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans it's a "Broadcom Integrated BCM 5752". is someone working on this? i almost started on this one until i realized my wife was not about to give up her thinkpad. ;-) the linux driver (tg3) is daunting. 12000 lines to drive an ethernet card. yikes! i think some people use 8139-based cardbus adapters. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 12:36 ` erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-10 14:35 ` Gabriel Diaz 2007-05-10 15:18 ` Markus Sonderegger 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Gabriel Diaz @ 2007-05-10 14:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs hello i used to use one of those cards until it crashed, a "corporative" change made me to change the notebook to a new brand, so i'll never know what was happening :(, i will try plan9 in the compaq nc8430 soon, it has a broadcom card too, but i hope this time the realtek card works. gabi On 5/10/07, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote: > it's a "Broadcom Integrated BCM 5752". is someone working on this? > i almost started on this one until i realized my wife was not about to > give up her thinkpad. ;-) > > the linux driver (tg3) is daunting. 12000 lines to drive an ethernet card. > yikes! > > i think some people use 8139-based cardbus adapters. > > - erik > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 12:36 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-10 14:35 ` Gabriel Diaz @ 2007-05-10 15:18 ` Markus Sonderegger 2007-05-10 13:46 ` C H Forsyth 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Markus Sonderegger @ 2007-05-10 15:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 111 bytes --] My machine uses the "Broadcom BCM5751M". In the wiki i saw that jmk and Georg Gensure where working on this [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3868 bytes --] From: erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:36:03 -0400 Message-ID: <86d1cfb79c7980592c313a29baa03beb@coraid.com> it's a "Broadcom Integrated BCM 5752". is someone working on this? i almost started on this one until i realized my wife was not about to give up her thinkpad. ;-) the linux driver (tg3) is daunting. 12000 lines to drive an ethernet card. yikes! i think some people use 8139-based cardbus adapters. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 15:18 ` Markus Sonderegger @ 2007-05-10 13:46 ` C H Forsyth 2007-05-10 13:55 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: C H Forsyth @ 2007-05-10 13:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > the linux driver (tg3) is daunting. 12000 lines to drive an ethernet card. > yikes! they often do that. it's usually just silly. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 13:46 ` C H Forsyth @ 2007-05-10 13:55 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-10 14:15 ` C H Forsyth 2007-05-10 15:59 ` Devon H. O'Dell 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-10 13:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans i wouldn't mind but with the nonexistance of broadcomm documentation, you have to crib from the linux or bsd drivers (usually both). hey, wasn't the whole linux 0.10 kernel just ~10,000 lines of code? oh, well. time to read /sys/src/cmd/aux/vga/adventure again. ;-) the troll laughs uproariously. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 13:55 ` erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-10 14:15 ` C H Forsyth 2007-05-10 15:59 ` Devon H. O'Dell 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: C H Forsyth @ 2007-05-10 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > i wouldn't mind but with the nonexistance of broadcomm documentation, > you have to crib from the linux or bsd drivers (usually both). i know. it's pathetic. ``why, this is Hell, nor am I out of it. ...'' ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 13:55 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-10 14:15 ` C H Forsyth @ 2007-05-10 15:59 ` Devon H. O'Dell 2007-05-10 19:26 ` Uriel 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Devon H. O'Dell @ 2007-05-10 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 2007/5/10, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com>: > i wouldn't mind but with the nonexistance of broadcomm documentation, > you have to crib from the linux or bsd drivers (usually both). I have the documentation on all 57xx serverworks chipsets and you still have to crib from the linux driver for errata. I can verify validity and work on this driver, but am hesitant to start from scratch due to theorized existence of partially working code. --dho > hey, wasn't the whole linux 0.10 kernel just ~10,000 lines of code? > > oh, well. time to read /sys/src/cmd/aux/vga/adventure again. ;-) > > the troll laughs uproariously. > > - erik > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 15:59 ` Devon H. O'Dell @ 2007-05-10 19:26 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 3:57 ` Vester Thacker 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Uriel @ 2007-05-10 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs There have been at least two (known to some) broadcom drivers for at least a year, it is *appalling* that none of this code has been released so far. To expect people to duplicate existing work is ridiculous and stupid. uriel On 5/10/07, Devon H. O'Dell <devon.odell@gmail.com> wrote: > 2007/5/10, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com>: > > i wouldn't mind but with the nonexistance of broadcomm documentation, > > you have to crib from the linux or bsd drivers (usually both). > > I have the documentation on all 57xx serverworks chipsets and you > still have to crib from the linux driver for errata. I can verify > validity and work on this driver, but am hesitant to start from > scratch due to theorized existence of partially working code. > > --dho > > > hey, wasn't the whole linux 0.10 kernel just ~10,000 lines of code? > > > > oh, well. time to read /sys/src/cmd/aux/vga/adventure again. ;-) > > > > the troll laughs uproariously. > > > > - erik > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-10 19:26 ` Uriel @ 2007-05-11 3:57 ` Vester Thacker 2007-05-11 4:24 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 4:42 ` Uriel 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Vester Thacker @ 2007-05-11 3:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/11/07, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote: > > To expect people to duplicate existing work is ridiculous and stupid. Providing negative criticism without recommending a solution is not going to improve the situation. Consider contacting the individuals involved directly, organize a meeting, or start another thread to address the issue. Any one involved with writing a broadcom driver care to kickoff a discussion? HTH, Vester ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 3:57 ` Vester Thacker @ 2007-05-11 4:24 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 4:50 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente 2007-05-11 4:42 ` Uriel 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2007-05-11 4:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Any one involved with writing a broadcom driver care to kickoff a discussion? jmk sent me his work-in-progress driver code. I started work on it on my Dell Latitude D610, but cardbus driver issues got in the way. By the time I got close to resolving that, the laptop got replaced. Meanwhile, I'm so pissed off with Broadcom's attitude that I just refuse to use their hardware any more. I have enough spare Realtek and Via PCI cards that it's not a problem for me right now. What I'm more interested in is getting the supported hardware list up-to-date for PCMCIA and Cardbus Ethernet cards. --lyndon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 4:24 ` Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2007-05-11 4:50 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente 2007-05-11 10:30 ` Markus Sonderegger 2007-05-11 11:58 ` Steve Simon 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente @ 2007-05-11 4:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Fans: I am gonna write some broadcom drivers for the 4411 chipset. I am also looking forward to write some wireless drivers. Broadcom has some reasons not to release their specs... They made a bad marketing/engineering/client decission. Many of their chipsets are used by the US military. They then have "public" drivers for the masses and the ones with "military" functions. I know for sure that at least the USAF uses _a lot_ of broadcom chipsets on critical comm. I'd like to know about those of you that have a broadcom chipset... And if you would be willing to test my driver attempts... I think we really have to work on hardware support. There is another not_so_good OS around being a mainstream choice because of its _impressive_ hardware support... It is not about being a lot of users, but being able to use plan 9 (or inferno) everywhere we want. Cheers! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 4:50 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente @ 2007-05-11 10:30 ` Markus Sonderegger 2007-05-11 11:58 ` Steve Simon 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Markus Sonderegger @ 2007-05-11 10:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > I'd like to know about those of you that have a broadcom chipset... > And if you would be willing to test my driver attempts... Yeap, I'm willed to test your drivers. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 4:50 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente 2007-05-11 10:30 ` Markus Sonderegger @ 2007-05-11 11:58 ` Steve Simon 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2007-05-11 11:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I'd like to know about those of you that have a broadcom chipset... > And if you would be willing to test my driver attempts... I have access to many machines containing Broadcom NetXtreme crads which I believe are BCM4401. I would be happy to do a bit of testing. -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 3:57 ` Vester Thacker 2007-05-11 4:24 ` Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2007-05-11 4:42 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 4:47 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Uriel @ 2007-05-11 4:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/11/07, Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote: > On 5/11/07, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > To expect people to duplicate existing work is ridiculous and stupid. > > Providing negative criticism without recommending a solution is not > going to improve the situation. How many times people need to be told to put their damned code in sources? Or is this such a totally crazy thing to ask of a supposedly open source project? Or is asking people to do 9fs + cp(1) too much? Of course it would be better if people actually posted a short comment about their work to 9fans, but I can do even without that as long as people puts the damned code somewhere where others can find it. Because it is not the first, second or third time we have to go through this ridiculous game. It was embarrassing enough to have people submit one GSoC proposal after another where we had to tell them "oh, I'm sorry, that is already done, it is just that whoever did it has not bothered to release the code so far, please come up with another project". uriel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 4:42 ` Uriel @ 2007-05-11 4:47 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 5:13 ` Uriel 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2007-05-11 4:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > How many times people need to be told to put their damned code in sources? > Or is this such a totally crazy thing to ask of a supposedly open > source project? Maybe their damned code isn't ready to ship yet? I think what you're really bitching about is the lack of an "active projects" list. The problem with advertising that you are working on something is the endless stream of "are we there yet?" messages that result. --lyndon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 4:47 ` Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2007-05-11 5:13 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 5:32 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 14:57 ` Paul Lalonde 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Uriel @ 2007-05-11 5:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/11/07, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote: > > How many times people need to be told to put their damned code in sources? > > Or is this such a totally crazy thing to ask of a supposedly open > > source project? > > Maybe their damned code isn't ready to ship yet? What is "ready to ship"? and if it is not "ready to ship" and is not released there is no way in hell anyone else is going to help make it "ready to ship". > I think what you're really bitching about is the lack of an "active projects" list. That would be nice, but is secondary. > The problem with advertising that you are working on something is the > endless stream of "are we there yet?" messages that result. And that problem goes away if people actually puts their damned code somewhere where people can see it, and they can 1) see it for themselves 2) try it for themselves 3) fix/finish it by themselves As things are we have random people showing up and asking "I would like to work in implementing Foo" "someone is already working on it" "who?" "we are not sure" "where is the code?" "it is not released" "what is the status?" "we don't know" - the interested potential contributor goes away frustrated and pissed off. This could be simply be avoided if one was able to point to wherever they can find the latest code and they can figure out whatever it works or whatever they can fix it or not on their own. The current madness doesn't avoid the "are we there yet?" messages, it only makes them worse. The OHCI/USB 2.0 drivers are a good example of this, I have lost count of how many people have been rumoured to have worked on that, and I don't think anybody has a clue of really what the status is and what still needs to be done. uriel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 5:13 ` Uriel @ 2007-05-11 5:32 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 5:48 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 11:37 ` Russ Cox 2007-05-11 14:57 ` Paul Lalonde 1 sibling, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2007-05-11 5:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > This could be simply be avoided if one was able to point to wherever > they can find the latest code and they can figure out whatever it > works or whatever they can fix it or not on their own. No it doesn't. Me putting up my development code won't do anyone any good, and will proactively slow me down because I have answer questions about 'why doesn't this compile? what the f*** are you doing here? where is this function you call (that I haven't written yet)?' etc. Even ignoring those questions takes time. But it would be useful to be able to hoist a flag saying 'I am working on all things related to IMAP right now, so if you're planning to bugger around with that code, please drop me a note so we can let each other know where we're stepping on each other.' --lyndon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 5:32 ` Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2007-05-11 5:48 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 6:08 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 11:37 ` Russ Cox 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Uriel @ 2007-05-11 5:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/11/07, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote: > > This could be simply be avoided if one was able to point to wherever > > they can find the latest code and they can figure out whatever it > > works or whatever they can fix it or not on their own. > > No it doesn't. Me putting up my development code won't do anyone any > good, This is patently false as I explained in my email, making the code available answers most questions by itself and shifts the burden to whoever is interested in the code to deal with it on their own. > and will proactively slow me down because I have answer > questions about 'why doesn't this compile? what the f*** are you > doing here? where is this function you call (that I haven't written > yet)?' etc. Even ignoring those questions takes time. Has this ever really been a problem or it is pure speculation? And to be honest, if you want to dump your code in a random sources/contrib dir without providing any contact email address I would still be quite happy with that. > But it would be useful to be able to hoist a flag saying 'I am > working on all things related to IMAP right now, so if you're planning > to bugger around with that code, please drop me a note so we can let > each other know where we're stepping on each other.' First you ask not to be bothered by anyone, and now you want people to email you so you can "let each other know where we're stepping on each other.'" I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. Plan 9 is the only "open source" project where this kind of ridiculous practices exist. Why on earth Plan 9 has to be different and drive everyone around crazy is beyond me. uriel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 5:48 ` Uriel @ 2007-05-11 6:08 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 6:28 ` Uriel 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2007-05-11 6:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> and will proactively slow me down because I have answer >> questions about 'why doesn't this compile? what the f*** are you >> doing here? where is this function you call (that I haven't written >> yet)?' etc. Even ignoring those questions takes time. > > Has this ever really been a problem or it is pure speculation? This is based on many years of hands-on experience. > First you ask not to be bothered by anyone, and now you want people to > email you so you can "let each other know where we're stepping on each > other.'" I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. Continuing the IMAP analogy, for me to put up fragments if client-side IMAP message caching code would not do any good to anyone who isn't intimately familiar with that specific problem space. Typically the would-be downloader sees "IMAP" and latches on with the hope they will find a tool that will help them sort and filter their mail. But when they double-click on imcache.c they get some strange pop-up dialog from Windows instead of the IMAP email client they were expecting. Avoiding that requires an access filter. A semantic filter that keeps the programming-naive away is a wonderful idea -- spam filtering for programmer wannabes :-) -- but it aint out there yet. This could be a work-in-progress that you could keep on /n/sources/contrib. Meanwhile, I want to keep my IMAP code within the group of people I know actually *know* how IMAP works, so that I can actually develop the code. I don't have a problem with releasing code for people to look at, play with, compile, sell, whatever. That's why my escaped goo has a BSD license on it. But I'm not going to put out any work I create unless and until I (I, *I*, *me*, not anyone else) decides it's ready to be seen in public. And nobody (*NO*body) has the right to tell me otherwise. > Plan 9 is the only "open source" project where this kind of ridiculous > practices exist. Why on earth Plan 9 has to be different and drive > everyone around crazy is beyond me. Maybe we aren't trying to solve penis envy? --lyndon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 6:08 ` Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2007-05-11 6:28 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 17:35 ` lucio 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Uriel @ 2007-05-11 6:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > Continuing the IMAP analogy, for me to put up fragments if client-side > IMAP message caching code would not do any good to anyone who isn't > intimately familiar with that specific problem space. Typically the > would-be downloader sees "IMAP" and latches on with the hope they will > find a tool that will help them sort and filter their mail. But when > they double-click on imcache.c they get some strange pop-up dialog > from Windows instead of the IMAP email client they were expecting. > Avoiding that requires an access filter. Besides how ridiculous your example might be, *if* it was true it would apply as much to unfinished code as to "ready to ship" code, and would be an argument to *never* release any code. If you don't want to release any code for whatever reason, fine. But don't say "it is because it is not ready to ship" and then make up ridiculous arguments that if taken seriously apply as much to code "ready to ship" as to anything else. As you said, it is your code and you can do with it whatever the hell you like, but if you are going to give excuses for not releasing it at least be minimally intellectually honest. And as I said, if you want to release your code anonymously and not provide any contact email address with it, that is fine by me. > > Plan 9 is the only "open source" project where this kind of ridiculous > > practices exist. Why on earth Plan 9 has to be different and drive > > everyone around crazy is beyond me. > > Maybe we aren't trying to solve penis envy? I'm starting to suspect that maybe nobody cares about the future of Plan 9. uriel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 6:28 ` Uriel @ 2007-05-11 17:35 ` lucio 2007-05-11 19:24 ` Uriel 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2007-05-11 17:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I'm starting to suspect that maybe nobody cares about the future of Plan 9. You could not be more mistaken. Do you seriously believe that your ranting is going to save Plan 9? If you do, you might want to consider that many of us do not believe in the "Cathedral vs Bazaar" approach to computer programming. And of these infidels, some happen to be those who created and nursed Plan 9 to where it is today. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 17:35 ` lucio @ 2007-05-11 19:24 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 19:52 ` lucio 2007-05-11 20:05 ` lucio 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Uriel @ 2007-05-11 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/11/07, lucio@proxima.alt.za <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote: > > I'm starting to suspect that maybe nobody cares about the future of Plan 9. > > You could not be more mistaken. Do you seriously believe that your > ranting is going to save Plan 9? If you do, you might want to > consider that many of us do not believe in the "Cathedral vs Bazaar" > approach to computer programming. And of these infidels, some happen > to be those who created and nursed Plan 9 to where it is today. I have not even read the god damned "Cathedral and Bazaar" book. But I have read The Mythical Man Month and anything by Kernighan (and the rest of the 1127 gang) I could find anywhere, including things like: "Design and build software, even operating systems, to be tried early, ideally within weeks." -- The Bell System Technical Journal. Bell Laboratories. M. D. McIlroy, E. N. Pinson, and B. A. Tague. "Unix Time-Sharing System Forward" 1978. 57 (6, part 2). p. 1902. It is beyond me how anyone expects things to be "tried early" if the code remains locked up who knows where for years. The "release early, release often" open source mantra trivially follows from this principle. In any case, it is clear that no matter how much we hate open source and open source projects, Plan 9 needs an open source community if it is going to survive, and if we continue to display total contempt even towards its most basic practices Plan 9 will continue to be ignored by the open source community and will wither and die (if it is not dead already). Seen somewhere earlier today (nick name removed because apparently no one dears to criticize in public): 12:05 < XXXX> I find quite frustrating to start a project that is already done... 12:05 < XXXX> To look for a driver that is already there... 12:05 < XXXX> To have an idea that someone else is doing... 12:06 * XXXX grrrrsss and rants... 12:06 < uriel> talking about 9fans? 12:06 < XXXX> Of course. 12:11 < XXXX> [sources/contrib] is great, as long as people put their work there... 12:11 < XXXX> And an INDEX... uriel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 19:24 ` Uriel @ 2007-05-11 19:52 ` lucio 2007-05-11 20:05 ` lucio 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2007-05-11 19:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Plan 9 needs an open source community if it > is going to survive You keep harping. Where is the evidence? ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 19:24 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 19:52 ` lucio @ 2007-05-11 20:05 ` lucio 2007-05-11 22:35 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2007-05-11 20:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > 12:05 < XXXX> I find quite frustrating to start a project that is > already done... Rather than pleased that something wanted is already available? Please spare me the whinging and rather admit, both of you here, that Plan 9 is not ripe for those who seek to stand on the shoulders of giants, not to see further, but to be noticed from a distance. > 12:05 < XXXX> To look for a driver that is already there... > 12:05 < XXXX> To have an idea that someone else is doing... Asking tends to solicit replies. Is it our fault that we aren't exactly interested in using IRC? > 12:06 * XXXX grrrrsss and rants... > 12:06 < uriel> talking about 9fans? > 12:06 < XXXX> Of course. > 12:11 < XXXX> [sources/contrib] is great, as long as people put their > work there... > 12:11 < XXXX> And an INDEX... No one has ever stopped anyone from setting up a CVS repository or anything else that might be more useful than sources. But the reality is that Uriel and colleagues are looking for a platform for fame and fortune. Sadly, Plan 9 is not "American Idol" and those who really do contribute are concentrating on their tasks instead of, as Uriel would like, on making Plan 9 leave up to popularistic expectations. My take: "thank fuck!" ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 20:05 ` lucio @ 2007-05-11 22:35 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente 2007-05-12 4:11 ` lucio 2007-05-12 4:13 ` lucio 2007-05-12 0:43 ` Tom Lieber 2007-05-17 9:50 ` Dave Lukes 2 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente @ 2007-05-11 22:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I am gona put the face to those XXXX, lucio. I am not looking for fame, I am looking to get some hardware working. The system didn't have those drivers, so I googled, I asked and perhaps I asked the wrong place. Ok...Starting several projects, even if they are already done, has tought very interesting and cool things :D But sometimes you can start to think about something else if you can stop worrying about your sata drive, your vga card and your network card. I don't like the sensation of starting something and then, some time after that, getting a message saying "well I did that last eon"... Probably I asked in the wrong places in the beginning. I've noticed that many members of this community do not use IRC. Everybody is free to do whatever suits with their code. I find sources/contrib a good thing, but I have also noticed that there are things missing there. Someone looks for a driver, the driver isn't there... Then looks in 9fans... Ask in irc.. Nobody answers... Until you are facing some problem and ask, a couple of weeks before... It is magic, someone had done that before... All I want... Is world peace, universal love and no child never ever left behind. Bah, It doesn't matter anymore... It is just that I don't feel useful if someone else tells me that has done my work a long time ago... It is like blowing in a pinholed baloon... It will never grow. I am sorry If my complaint offends someone. Cheers! On 5/11/07, lucio@proxima.alt.za <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote: > > 12:05 < XXXX> I find quite frustrating to start a project that is > > already done... > > Rather than pleased that something wanted is already available? > Please spare me the whinging and rather admit, both of you here, that > Plan 9 is not ripe for those who seek to stand on the shoulders of > giants, not to see further, but to be noticed from a distance. > > > 12:05 < XXXX> To look for a driver that is already there... > > 12:05 < XXXX> To have an idea that someone else is doing... > > Asking tends to solicit replies. Is it our fault that we aren't > exactly interested in using IRC? > > > 12:06 * XXXX grrrrsss and rants... > > 12:06 < uriel> talking about 9fans? > > 12:06 < XXXX> Of course. > > 12:11 < XXXX> [sources/contrib] is great, as long as people put their > > work there... > > 12:11 < XXXX> And an INDEX... > > No one has ever stopped anyone from setting up a CVS repository or > anything else that might be more useful than sources. But the reality > is that Uriel and colleagues are looking for a platform for fame and > fortune. Sadly, Plan 9 is not "American Idol" and those who really do > contribute are concentrating on their tasks instead of, as Uriel would > like, on making Plan 9 leave up to popularistic expectations. > > My take: "thank fuck!" > > ++L > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 22:35 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente @ 2007-05-12 4:11 ` lucio 2007-05-12 4:13 ` lucio 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2007-05-12 4:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I am gona put the face to those XXXX, lucio. > > I am not looking for fame, I am looking to get some hardware working. > The system didn't have those drivers, so I googled, I asked and > perhaps I asked the wrong place. Welcome. And thank you for a refreshingly honest response. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 22:35 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente 2007-05-12 4:11 ` lucio @ 2007-05-12 4:13 ` lucio 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2007-05-12 4:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I am sorry If my complaint offends someone. Quite unlikely, we're adults here. Thank you for not letting Uriel continue his game. By the way, was he helpful to you in any way? ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 20:05 ` lucio 2007-05-11 22:35 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente @ 2007-05-12 0:43 ` Tom Lieber 2007-05-12 4:34 ` lucio 2007-05-17 9:50 ` Dave Lukes 2 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Tom Lieber @ 2007-05-12 0:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I'm new here, so I may be off-base due to inexperience. I just don't see why there is any problem with, every once in a while, copying works-in-progress to sources with a README like: "This is NOT DONE. This is for those who are curious about the status of the project. I'm not looking for contributors." or, if you're feeling adventurous, "This is NOT DONE. This is for those who are curious about the status of the project. If you want to contribute, contact me and we can exchange patches. If there's community interest in adding to the code, we can see about setting up an RCS." The whole problem with uploading code seems to be an issue with trusting others. [Per Nerenberg's remarks.] Even if the code isn't 'ready,' with README files as above, people shouldn't harbor much resentment when incomplete code breaks their computer, and they shouldn't laugh at you for embarrassing coding errors. If you say "don't contact me!" and someone contacts you, it's because they didn't read the notes, or they aren't very good at following protocol. I haven't noticed many people that seem that way on the mailing list. Am I wrong? Can we not trust others here? Were your bad experiences with the Plan 9 community, or with the open source community at large? Uploading your source is as good a way to "hoist a flag" as any I can think of, and it has side-benefits for the curious or needy. I don't expect anyone should feel required to make their code available (which I feel is different from "releasing" the code), just that it would make life easier for some if this were the exception instead of the rule. Everyone always has the choice. [Per Lalonde's remarks.] The point isn't always to make collaboration possible. If someone wants to see the status of the code, or modify it locally to solve a problem, then if the code is somewhere they can access, this is possible. When it is hidden, nobody can benefit from it in the slightest. If you publish the code and solicit patches, and patches become hard to keep track of, that's a really good indicator that the project is too important to not have a public RCS somewhere, or that you should ask people to stop sending patches because it doesn't suit your development style. If you can't trust the community to even respect requests in your README, what can you rely on? I don't know about "saving Plan 9" because I have only a few dozen hours reading the papers and using it myself. All I know is that when I become familiar enough with the system to want to modify or improve it, the more nearly-complete code there is available, the better training wheels I'll have. The more broken, incomplete, and horribly-styled code I can look at, the more lessons I can learn. Sincerely, Tom Lieber http://AllTom.com/ http://GadgetLife.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-12 0:43 ` Tom Lieber @ 2007-05-12 4:34 ` lucio 0 siblings, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2007-05-12 4:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: alltom, 9fans > If you can't trust the community to even respect requests in your > README, what can you rely on? Well, whereas I can agree with you that publication could be beneficial, you have to grant that no one should be told when and where to publish. It's a simple privacy issue and there are definitely two opposing points of view involved. Don't believe the rationalisations, consider instead the individual objectives. Who are the real contributors and who are the limelight seekers? Plan 9 seems to be resisting a swing from elitism to communism. Who will gain the most from the swing when the reality check shows that it has been from a meritocracy to mediocrity? ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 20:05 ` lucio 2007-05-11 22:35 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente 2007-05-12 0:43 ` Tom Lieber @ 2007-05-17 9:50 ` Dave Lukes 2007-05-17 10:23 ` erik quanstrom ` (2 more replies) 2 siblings, 3 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Dave Lukes @ 2007-05-17 9:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > But the reality is that Uriel and colleagues are looking for a > platform for fame and fortune. I think you're being gratuitously cruel. OTOH I _do_ think that some people around here are uncertain enough about their own opinions that they subconsciously believe that approbation == excellence and thus waste effort trying to convince others that plan9 is Really Good when they are really trying to convince themselves. I, OTOH suffer from no such problem: I _know_ I'm right*. If anything, I suffer from the opposite delusion: I own a MacBook (unpopular) but not an iPod (popular) and I am deeply distrustful of popularity as a measure of anything other than popularity. > Sadly, Plan 9 is not "American Idol" That's right: we're not all tone-deaf braindead egomaniacs. D. ******************************************************************** This e-mail and files transmitted with it are confidential. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by return email or telephone +44 (0)207398 0207. You are not authorised to, and must not, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message or any part of it. ******************************************************************** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-17 9:50 ` Dave Lukes @ 2007-05-17 10:23 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-17 11:25 ` matt 2007-05-17 11:52 ` Dave Lukes 2007-05-17 13:04 ` W B Hacker 2007-05-17 17:53 ` lucio 2 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-17 10:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Dear Sirs, I believe I have recieved this email in error. Erik Quanstrom > ******************************************************************** > This e-mail and files transmitted with it are confidential. If you > have received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by > return email or telephone +44 (0)207398 0207. You are not authorised > to, and must not, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message > or any part of it. > ******************************************************************** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-17 10:23 ` erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-17 11:25 ` matt 2007-05-17 11:52 ` Dave Lukes 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: matt @ 2007-05-17 11:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs They were very helpful when I phoned them. I had no idea who I was phoning so it was a pleasant surprise when I got put through somehow to Dave Lukes and we had quite the chat! let's hear it for socially enabling disclaimers matt >Dear Sirs, > >I believe I have recieved this email in error. > >Erik Quanstrom > > > >>******************************************************************** >>This e-mail and files transmitted with it are confidential. If you >>have received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by >>return email or telephone +44 (0)207398 0207. You are not authorised >>to, and must not, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message >>or any part of it. >>******************************************************************** >> >> > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-17 10:23 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-17 11:25 ` matt @ 2007-05-17 11:52 ` Dave Lukes 2007-05-17 11:59 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Dave Lukes @ 2007-05-17 11:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs erik quanstrom wrote: > Dear Sirs, > > I believe I have recieved this email in error. > > Erik Quanstrom > > >> ******************************************************************** >> This e-mail and files transmitted with it are confidential. If you >> have received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by >> return email or telephone +44 (0)207398 0207. You are not authorised >> to, and must not, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message >> or any part of it. >> ******************************************************************** >> OK OK, total corporate humiliation has now been achieved:-~. I'll subscribe from a slightly more civilised address. DaveL P.S. "'i' before 'e' except after 'c'":-). ******************************************************************** This e-mail and files transmitted with it are confidential. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by return email or telephone +44 (0)207398 0207. You are not authorised to, and must not, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message or any part of it. ******************************************************************** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-17 11:52 ` Dave Lukes @ 2007-05-17 11:59 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-17 11:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans sorry. the irony was just too great to pass up. ;-) i noticed that spelling error. i could claim it was part of the joke, but it's just bad spelling. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-17 9:50 ` Dave Lukes 2007-05-17 10:23 ` erik quanstrom @ 2007-05-17 13:04 ` W B Hacker 2007-05-17 17:53 ` lucio 2 siblings, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: W B Hacker @ 2007-05-17 13:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Dave Lukes wrote: >> But the reality is that Uriel and colleagues are looking for a >> platform for fame and fortune. > > I think you're being gratuitously cruel. > > OTOH I _do_ think that some people around here > are uncertain enough about their own opinions that > they subconsciously believe that approbation == excellence > and thus waste effort trying to convince others > that plan9 is Really Good when they are > really trying to convince themselves. > > I, OTOH suffer from no such problem: > I _know_ I'm right*. > If anything, I suffer from the opposite delusion: > I own a MacBook (unpopular) but not an iPod (popular) > and I am deeply distrustful of popularity > as a measure of anything other than popularity. > >> Sadly, Plan 9 is not "American Idol" > > That's right: we're not all tone-deaf braindead egomaniacs. > > D. > Not yet. (PowerBook and totally uncomputerized vintage Marantz audio gear). 'Nam and things that make loud noises took care of the tone-deaf part long ago. Anyone here will attest I'm diligently working on the 'brain dead' part as well. And I was *born* an egomaniac... Ipse dixit. ;-) But 'Not guilty' to yet being convinced - in any direction, really, w/r Plan9. Still wading through the chaff. Bill ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-17 9:50 ` Dave Lukes 2007-05-17 10:23 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-17 13:04 ` W B Hacker @ 2007-05-17 17:53 ` lucio 2 siblings, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2007-05-17 17:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > That's right: we're not all tone-deaf braindead egomaniacs. Yeah. I'm the only one! ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 5:32 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 5:48 ` Uriel @ 2007-05-11 11:37 ` Russ Cox 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2007-05-11 11:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans About a month ago I changed my mail filters to drop all mail from Uriel, because, as Lyndon points out, even ignoring those posts takes time. I still see the backscatter of other people replying to Uriel, so I know he's still there, but I've been pretty happy with the results so far. And judging from the tone of the backscatter, everyone else would be too. Just a thought. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? 2007-05-11 5:13 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 5:32 ` Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2007-05-11 14:57 ` Paul Lalonde 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Paul Lalonde @ 2007-05-11 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On May 10, 2007, at 10:13 PM, Uriel wrote: > And that problem goes away if people actually puts their damned code > somewhere where people can see it, and they can 1) see it for > themselves 2) try it for themselves 3) fix/finish it by themselves It's a step harder than "just dropping it on sources". For all its utility, sources is no revision control system. Collaboration without (semi-)automatic change tracking and integration is an exercise in frustration, even with well-meaning submissions. The typical open source cvs process works well for patches, but is painful for reviewing substantial changes. In my day job we use Perforce. We have piles of (distributed) engineers banging on closely related code. Branching is a pain, but the integration process is smooth and easy, and we have automated review tools built on it. We tried subversion for a while, but found quickly that the reverse was done: branching was trivial, but integration was stunningly painful - you had to manually track what had been integrated and what hadn't; there were some scripts to automate some of that, but they were weak. SVN, and all the other open-source RCSs out there seem built for the "integrate infrequently everything in that branch" model, which (IM(ns)HO) doesn't match a less-distributed model so well. I don't want to collaborate with people when the cost of collaboration is continuous painful integrates. I'll take bug fixes easily enough, but it's hard to make forward progress on a small yet complex code base in a distributed space without the confidence afforded by rock-solid RCS tools. I wish we had a modern one on Plan9, but I'm not going to be the one to write it (although I started a Perforce filesystem, it's crufty and weak, and needs to be rebuilt now that I understand 9P better). Paul -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFGRIRxpJeHo/Fbu1wRAvtIAJ9/ptdlskCCar0OHYwwtxB3EOqvJACfUV1h FeLestJ4mhf+RWqitopPD50= =6U1Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2007-05-17 17:53 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 43+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2007-05-10 8:34 [9fans] Is IBM ThinkPad R60e notebook compatible with Plan9? Antonin 2007-05-10 12:14 ` Antonin 2007-05-10 12:25 ` Federico Benavento 2007-05-10 13:33 ` Antonin 2007-05-10 13:45 ` Markus Sonderegger 2007-05-10 12:36 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-10 14:35 ` Gabriel Diaz 2007-05-10 15:18 ` Markus Sonderegger 2007-05-10 13:46 ` C H Forsyth 2007-05-10 13:55 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-10 14:15 ` C H Forsyth 2007-05-10 15:59 ` Devon H. O'Dell 2007-05-10 19:26 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 3:57 ` Vester Thacker 2007-05-11 4:24 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 4:50 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente 2007-05-11 10:30 ` Markus Sonderegger 2007-05-11 11:58 ` Steve Simon 2007-05-11 4:42 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 4:47 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 5:13 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 5:32 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 5:48 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 6:08 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2007-05-11 6:28 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 17:35 ` lucio 2007-05-11 19:24 ` Uriel 2007-05-11 19:52 ` lucio 2007-05-11 20:05 ` lucio 2007-05-11 22:35 ` Lorenzo Fernando Bivens de la Fuente 2007-05-12 4:11 ` lucio 2007-05-12 4:13 ` lucio 2007-05-12 0:43 ` Tom Lieber 2007-05-12 4:34 ` lucio 2007-05-17 9:50 ` Dave Lukes 2007-05-17 10:23 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-17 11:25 ` matt 2007-05-17 11:52 ` Dave Lukes 2007-05-17 11:59 ` erik quanstrom 2007-05-17 13:04 ` W B Hacker 2007-05-17 17:53 ` lucio 2007-05-11 11:37 ` Russ Cox 2007-05-11 14:57 ` Paul Lalonde
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