* [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up?
@ 2003-04-23 4:37 ron minnich
2003-04-23 8:09 ` Charles Forsyth
2003-04-23 12:22 ` David Presotto
0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: ron minnich @ 2003-04-23 4:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I have the vmware auth server up. There is no ndb/dns running, since my
!$!@$!@$!@ DSL is down, so no DNS anyway.
As I read the man pages, if there is no dns running, ndb/csquery should
act pretty much like ndb/query, since it falls back to /lib/ndb (or so I
thought)
I do:
ndb/query sys p9
and would expect it to act like:
ndb/csquery
> p9
Is this true or not? they don't act the same at all, so I'm guessing
this is another mis-read on my part.
Does ndb/cs actually just layer over top of ndb/dns, and without ndb/dns
ndb/cs is hosed?
thanks
ron
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 4:37 [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? ron minnich @ 2003-04-23 8:09 ` Charles Forsyth 2003-04-23 12:22 ` David Presotto 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Charles Forsyth @ 2003-04-23 8:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2207 bytes --] ndb/query and ndb/ipquery look directly in the ndb files. ndb/query does simple direct queries based on the given attribute and value, ndb/ipquery searches more extensively up through the subnet hierarchy. they are both good tools to check basic functioning of an ndb file. if they don't produce sensible results, it's unlikely cs will. ndb/query and (probably) ndb/ipquery do not talk to ndb/cs or ndb/dns at all. ndb/csquery simply opens /net/cs and speaks its protocol, which expects strings of the form net!host!service and replies with translations of them: term% ndb/csquery > net!plan9.bell-labs.com!9fs /net/il/clone 204.178.31.2!17008!fasttimeout /net/tcp/clone 204.178.31.2!564 /net/il/clone 204.178.31.2!17008 cs relies on dns to translate domain names to ip addresses. it does not expect a plain name such as `p9'. it translates dial(2) addresses. there's a special case that's also useful in checking whether your host, subnet and net defaults for services are reasonable. net!$attr!service looks for the given attribute `attr' through the subnet hierarchy starting at the host and working up. thus the dial(2) string `net!$fs!9fs' dials the (default) file server configured for the current node, and the translation can be checked by: term% ndb/csquery > net!$fs!9fs /net/il/clone 144.32.112.69!17008!fasttimeout /net/tcp/clone 144.32.112.69!564 /net/il/clone 144.32.112.69!17008 i don't know without a lot of grepping how much the $attr is used now but it is used to find an authentication server in the absence of an authdom (see /sys/src/libauthsrv/authdial.c). it doesn't really matter because the point here is that $xyz can be used to check that cs gives a sensible value for xyz for the current node. ndb/dnsquery opens /net/dns and uses its protocol: ndb/dnsquery > bell-labs.com ns bell-labs.com ns ns.research.att.com bell-labs.com ns yeats.pa.bell-labs.com bell-labs.com ns crufty.research.bell-labs.com bell-labs.com ns ns1.research.bell-labs.com bell-labs.com ns dirty.research.bell-labs.com bell-labs.com ns ns2.research.bell-labs.com > plan9.bell-labs.com plan9.bell-labs.com ip 204.178.31.2 [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2325 bytes --] From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:37:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304222230250.27065-100000@maxroach.lanl.gov> I have the vmware auth server up. There is no ndb/dns running, since my !$!@$!@$!@ DSL is down, so no DNS anyway. As I read the man pages, if there is no dns running, ndb/csquery should act pretty much like ndb/query, since it falls back to /lib/ndb (or so I thought) I do: ndb/query sys p9 and would expect it to act like: ndb/csquery > p9 Is this true or not? they don't act the same at all, so I'm guessing this is another mis-read on my part. Does ndb/cs actually just layer over top of ndb/dns, and without ndb/dns ndb/cs is hosed? thanks ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 4:37 [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? ron minnich 2003-04-23 8:09 ` Charles Forsyth @ 2003-04-23 12:22 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 12:51 ` Lucio De Re 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 12:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 282 bytes --] ndb/csquery > p9 means, give me the formula for dialing net!p9!<no service specified>. There is no such formula. However you could have said ndb/csquery > !sys=p9 This does mean the same as the ndb/query if there is nothing like dns that cs can get added info from. [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2195 bytes --] From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:37:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304222230250.27065-100000@maxroach.lanl.gov> I have the vmware auth server up. There is no ndb/dns running, since my !$!@$!@$!@ DSL is down, so no DNS anyway. As I read the man pages, if there is no dns running, ndb/csquery should act pretty much like ndb/query, since it falls back to /lib/ndb (or so I thought) I do: ndb/query sys p9 and would expect it to act like: ndb/csquery > p9 Is this true or not? they don't act the same at all, so I'm guessing this is another mis-read on my part. Does ndb/cs actually just layer over top of ndb/dns, and without ndb/dns ndb/cs is hosed? thanks ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 12:22 ` David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 12:51 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 12:59 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 13:17 ` David Presotto 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2003-04-23 12:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 08:22:59AM -0400, David Presotto wrote: > > ndb/csquery > > p9 > > [ ... ] Why does ndb/query authdom outside.plan9.bell-labs.com auth return sources.cs.bell-labs.com whereas ndb/ipquery authdom outside.plan9.bell-labs.com auth returns no response? I'm trying to get replica/pull to work across sshnet, but for some reason the authentication server is not being discovered whereas it seems that the 9fs connection is established correctly. I managed to get /net/dns to install itself once, but the rest of the time I have only net/ip and net/tcp and therefore not much in the line of useful information to reach the remote services :-) Not that I understand all the complications, I'm sure there's a lot that would be obvious to someone more comfortable with Plan 9 networking. ++L PS: Starting a new factotum seems to reroute the auth requests via the ssh tunnel rather than attempt to go via the original default route and that isn't what I expect either. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 12:51 ` Lucio De Re @ 2003-04-23 12:59 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 13:16 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 13:17 ` David Presotto 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 12:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 410 bytes --] Because ipquery starts and an ipaddress and looks through the database looking for attributes bound to that address, then to the subnet containing that address, then the subnet containing that subnet, ad nauseam looking for the attributes. There is no ip address corresponding to an authdom, like outside.plan9.bell-labs.com. I'll answer about sshnet as soon as I look at a man page to see what it is. [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2982 bytes --] From: Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:51:18 +0200 Message-ID: <20030423145118.J19261@cackle.proxima.alt.za> On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 08:22:59AM -0400, David Presotto wrote: > > ndb/csquery > > p9 > > [ ... ] Why does ndb/query authdom outside.plan9.bell-labs.com auth return sources.cs.bell-labs.com whereas ndb/ipquery authdom outside.plan9.bell-labs.com auth returns no response? I'm trying to get replica/pull to work across sshnet, but for some reason the authentication server is not being discovered whereas it seems that the 9fs connection is established correctly. I managed to get /net/dns to install itself once, but the rest of the time I have only net/ip and net/tcp and therefore not much in the line of useful information to reach the remote services :-) Not that I understand all the complications, I'm sure there's a lot that would be obvious to someone more comfortable with Plan 9 networking. ++L PS: Starting a new factotum seems to reroute the auth requests via the ssh tunnel rather than attempt to go via the original default route and that isn't what I expect either. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 12:59 ` David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 13:16 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 13:20 ` David Presotto ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2003-04-23 13:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 08:59:48AM -0400, David Presotto wrote: > > Because ipquery starts and an ipaddress and looks through the database looking > for attributes bound to that address, then to the subnet containing that address, > then the subnet containing that subnet, ad nauseam looking for the attributes. > > There is no ip address corresponding to an authdom, like outside.plan9.bell-labs.com. > Oh, OK! I guess the name says it all, once you know what to look for. > I'll answer about sshnet as soon as I look at a man page to see what it > is. Let me be less cryptic, while I have a chance. My office is linked to the Internet via a convoluted path of private networks, with a remote host that I can connect to using SSH. I establish a "tunnel" to that host quite happily using sshnet, which installs a stripped copy of /net. The command srv sources.cs.bell-labs.com sources /n/sources returns the reassuring "post..." and, in the absence of a factotum key, prompts me for the proxima/......... which I use to authenticate. Sadly, it seems to me that factotum attempts to connect directly to sources.cs.bell-labs.com, according to tcpdump run on the remote host. The diagnostic output from factotum indicates the expected timeout caused by the various filters in the path. If I spawn a new factotum (it really needs an option to be removable, by the way), I believe it fails to identify/resolve the auth server associated with the auth domain. I have no idea quite how to take care of that problem. Ideally, I'd create a /net/ndb entry, but that's not possible with sshnet serving /net. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 13:16 ` Lucio De Re @ 2003-04-23 13:20 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 13:34 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 13:21 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 13:25 ` Lucio De Re 2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 245 bytes --] Your message suggests a better solution than mine. Just change sshnet to allow also implement /net/ndb and have sshnet's simulated /net search that first. It would make it a lot more useful. I don't have time right now, but perhaps you do? [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3596 bytes --] From: Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:16:25 +0200 Message-ID: <20030423151624.M19261@cackle.proxima.alt.za> On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 08:59:48AM -0400, David Presotto wrote: > > Because ipquery starts and an ipaddress and looks through the database looking > for attributes bound to that address, then to the subnet containing that address, > then the subnet containing that subnet, ad nauseam looking for the attributes. > > There is no ip address corresponding to an authdom, like outside.plan9.bell-labs.com. > Oh, OK! I guess the name says it all, once you know what to look for. > I'll answer about sshnet as soon as I look at a man page to see what it > is. Let me be less cryptic, while I have a chance. My office is linked to the Internet via a convoluted path of private networks, with a remote host that I can connect to using SSH. I establish a "tunnel" to that host quite happily using sshnet, which installs a stripped copy of /net. The command srv sources.cs.bell-labs.com sources /n/sources returns the reassuring "post..." and, in the absence of a factotum key, prompts me for the proxima/......... which I use to authenticate. Sadly, it seems to me that factotum attempts to connect directly to sources.cs.bell-labs.com, according to tcpdump run on the remote host. The diagnostic output from factotum indicates the expected timeout caused by the various filters in the path. If I spawn a new factotum (it really needs an option to be removable, by the way), I believe it fails to identify/resolve the auth server associated with the auth domain. I have no idea quite how to take care of that problem. Ideally, I'd create a /net/ndb entry, but that's not possible with sshnet serving /net. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 13:20 ` David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 13:34 ` Lucio De Re 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2003-04-23 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 09:20:06AM -0400, David Presotto wrote: > > Your message suggests a better solution than mine. Just change sshnet to allow > also implement /net/ndb and have sshnet's simulated /net search that first. It > would make it a lot more useful. I don't have time right now, but perhaps you > do? Lack of self-confidence is a bigger problem, but I will look into it. I suppose just copying the original /net/ndb would be a step forward. Making it editable would be nice. A new factotum becomes a necessity, I think I'll need an option to kill it, then, maybe a control command that the first factotum does not respond to? ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 13:16 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 13:20 ` David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 13:21 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 14:58 ` Russ Cox 2003-04-23 13:25 ` Lucio De Re 2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 13:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 232 bytes --] God that message was terrible. I meant to say: 1) have sshnet support a /net/ndb and set it up the usual way. 2) have sshnet's simulated cs, first search /net/ndb when resolving queries. That would make it a lot more useful. [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3596 bytes --] From: Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:16:25 +0200 Message-ID: <20030423151624.M19261@cackle.proxima.alt.za> On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 08:59:48AM -0400, David Presotto wrote: > > Because ipquery starts and an ipaddress and looks through the database looking > for attributes bound to that address, then to the subnet containing that address, > then the subnet containing that subnet, ad nauseam looking for the attributes. > > There is no ip address corresponding to an authdom, like outside.plan9.bell-labs.com. > Oh, OK! I guess the name says it all, once you know what to look for. > I'll answer about sshnet as soon as I look at a man page to see what it > is. Let me be less cryptic, while I have a chance. My office is linked to the Internet via a convoluted path of private networks, with a remote host that I can connect to using SSH. I establish a "tunnel" to that host quite happily using sshnet, which installs a stripped copy of /net. The command srv sources.cs.bell-labs.com sources /n/sources returns the reassuring "post..." and, in the absence of a factotum key, prompts me for the proxima/......... which I use to authenticate. Sadly, it seems to me that factotum attempts to connect directly to sources.cs.bell-labs.com, according to tcpdump run on the remote host. The diagnostic output from factotum indicates the expected timeout caused by the various filters in the path. If I spawn a new factotum (it really needs an option to be removable, by the way), I believe it fails to identify/resolve the auth server associated with the auth domain. I have no idea quite how to take care of that problem. Ideally, I'd create a /net/ndb entry, but that's not possible with sshnet serving /net. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 13:21 ` David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 14:58 ` Russ Cox 2003-04-23 21:57 ` Geoff Collyer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2003-04-23 14:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans sshnet's simulated /net/cs should pass queries through to the real /net/cs when it can't answer them. that will solve the auth problem. you still need to start a second factotum to get it to use the ssh network. starting a new factotum should not mess up your computer enough to require a reboot. if you just delete the window you started the new factotum in, it's gone. and even if you don't delete the window, it's not present in the other windows. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 14:58 ` Russ Cox @ 2003-04-23 21:57 ` Geoff Collyer 2003-04-24 12:16 ` Russ Cox 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Geoff Collyer @ 2003-04-23 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I think starting a second factotum steps on /srv/factotum unless you start the second one with -s and a unique service name. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 21:57 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2003-04-24 12:16 ` Russ Cox 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2003-04-24 12:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I think starting a second factotum steps on /srv/factotum unless you > start the second one with -s and a unique service name. That may have been true very early on, but it's definitely not true now (I'm not sure it ever was). I run new factotums all the time. The default is not to post. The system factotum is run by /boot/boot as factotum -S -sfactotum I start new factotums all the time. It doesn't break anything on my systems. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 13:16 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 13:20 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 13:21 ` David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 13:25 ` Lucio De Re 2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2003-04-23 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 03:16:25PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: > > Sadly, it seems to me that factotum attempts to connect directly to > sources.cs.bell-labs.com, according to tcpdump run on the remote > host. The diagnostic output from factotum indicates the expected > timeout caused by the various filters in the path. > Nopes, I stand corrected. This is what eventually pops out (I fear it's not the most recent version of factotum): 21: failure cs: can't translate address 21: write 141 in phase CNeedTreq yields phase CNeedTreq: failure cs: can't translate address 21: write 141 in phase CRelay yields phase CRelay: failure cs: can't translate address I don't know what address is involved, not what resolver service is being invoked. I also assumed that factotum itself did not communicate with the remote authenticator, but that it delegated all communication to the client or server! This does not seem to be the case here. > If I spawn a new factotum (it really needs an option to be removable, > by the way), I believe it fails to identify/resolve the auth server > associated with the auth domain. I have no idea quite how to take > care of that problem. Ideally, I'd create a /net/ndb entry, but > that's not possible with sshnet serving /net. > I don't want to do this right now, as spawning a new factotum tends to mess the namespace up enough for me to prefer to reboot. The alternative workstation I can use for testing is more or less a pristine installation and I don't know how much the absence of sensible configuration information actually cripples networking. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 12:51 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 12:59 ` David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 13:17 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 13:29 ` Lucio De Re 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 13:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 710 bytes --] Well, I just played with sshnet and looked at the source. It only gives you a /net/cs and a /net/tcp. ndb/cs in this world is a bit minimal. Unless your factotum is also started under that network, it shouldn't be able to dial auth servers available only under that network. You might try starting a second factotum. However, then it probably won't be able to figure out how to map the authdom to an auth server since that isn't available via the sshnet cs. I don't see a way around this without rewriting code. If the sshnet cs simulation actually looked in your /lib/ndb or if authdial looked in your /lib/ndb files after not finding things in /net/cs, you'ld have a chance of making it work. [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2982 bytes --] From: Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:51:18 +0200 Message-ID: <20030423145118.J19261@cackle.proxima.alt.za> On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 08:22:59AM -0400, David Presotto wrote: > > ndb/csquery > > p9 > > [ ... ] Why does ndb/query authdom outside.plan9.bell-labs.com auth return sources.cs.bell-labs.com whereas ndb/ipquery authdom outside.plan9.bell-labs.com auth returns no response? I'm trying to get replica/pull to work across sshnet, but for some reason the authentication server is not being discovered whereas it seems that the 9fs connection is established correctly. I managed to get /net/dns to install itself once, but the rest of the time I have only net/ip and net/tcp and therefore not much in the line of useful information to reach the remote services :-) Not that I understand all the complications, I'm sure there's a lot that would be obvious to someone more comfortable with Plan 9 networking. ++L PS: Starting a new factotum seems to reroute the auth requests via the ssh tunnel rather than attempt to go via the original default route and that isn't what I expect either. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? 2003-04-23 13:17 ` David Presotto @ 2003-04-23 13:29 ` Lucio De Re 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2003-04-23 13:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 09:17:10AM -0400, David Presotto wrote: > > I don't see a way around this without rewriting code. If the sshnet cs simulation > actually looked in your /lib/ndb or if authdial looked in your /lib/ndb files after > not finding things in /net/cs, you'ld have a chance of making it work. At least you confirmed what I suspected. I guess I can try to add a feature or two to sshnet and factotum so that this becomes possible. That leaves me wondering how I got to interpret the factotum docs as suggesting that factotum itself did not do its own communications. I'll have to re-read the documentation. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-04-24 12:16 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2003-04-23 4:37 [9fans] ndb/csquery: what is dns is not up? ron minnich 2003-04-23 8:09 ` Charles Forsyth 2003-04-23 12:22 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 12:51 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 12:59 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 13:16 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 13:20 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 13:34 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 13:21 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 14:58 ` Russ Cox 2003-04-23 21:57 ` Geoff Collyer 2003-04-24 12:16 ` Russ Cox 2003-04-23 13:25 ` Lucio De Re 2003-04-23 13:17 ` David Presotto 2003-04-23 13:29 ` Lucio De Re
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