* [9fans] venti ports and productization @ 2003-10-11 0:37 a 2003-10-11 1:45 ` jmk ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: a @ 2003-10-11 0:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans a few times someone (ehg?) has talked about work being done to get venti working on other OSs, and i at least got the impression that this was being donwe with an eye towards productization. i, for one, am very interested. i've recently found myself back in the world of "operations". we're in the (slow) process of moving the IT stuff over to Mac OS X from various vintages of Win32. we currently use some commercial app for backups on the server, and it's pretty good. but i'm reluctant to buy more than one copy. it's not *that* good. but given the equivalent of /n/dump on OS X, and some decent management tools (so i can have non-plan9 types admin it), i'd gladly shell out $100/mac, more for the servers. i'd even buy a few copies of a Win32 port, since it may be a while until we've nixed all that crap. so... is work on that progressing? is it more research or product? any ETA? any details of the work being done (just raw venti, or some level of FS integration)? thanks, ア ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-11 0:37 [9fans] venti ports and productization a @ 2003-10-11 1:45 ` jmk 2003-10-11 1:50 ` bs ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: jmk @ 2003-10-11 1:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I'm not aware of any efforts here to 'productise' or port Venti. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-11 0:37 [9fans] venti ports and productization a 2003-10-11 1:45 ` jmk @ 2003-10-11 1:50 ` bs 2003-10-11 2:14 ` Russ Cox 2003-10-21 10:14 ` Martin C.Atkins 3 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: bs @ 2003-10-11 1:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I think ehg talked/mentioned about productizing factotum for (l)unix and windows, and IIRC not venti. > a few times someone (ehg?) has talked about work > being done to get venti working on other OSs, and > i at least got the impression that this was > being donwe with an eye towards productization. i, > for one, am very interested. i've recently found > myself back in the world of "operations". we're > in the (slow) process of moving the IT stuff over > to Mac OS X from various vintages of Win32. we > currently use some commercial app for backups on > the server, and it's pretty good. but i'm > reluctant to buy more than one copy. it's not > *that* good. but given the equivalent of /n/dump > on OS X, and some decent management tools (so i > can have non-plan9 types admin it), i'd gladly > shell out $100/mac, more for the servers. i'd > even buy a few copies of a Win32 port, since it > may be a while until we've nixed all that crap. > > so... is work on that progressing? is it more > research or product? any ETA? any details of the > work being done (just raw venti, or some level > of FS integration)? thanks, > ア ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-11 0:37 [9fans] venti ports and productization a 2003-10-11 1:45 ` jmk 2003-10-11 1:50 ` bs @ 2003-10-11 2:14 ` Russ Cox 2003-10-11 17:05 ` a 2003-10-21 10:14 ` Martin C.Atkins 3 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2003-10-11 2:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans A while ago I ported vac (not vacfs!) to Windows. Dave and Eric made the port work a bit better, but my impression (from afar) is that there hasn't been any further work, especially not toward commercialization. [Jmk's recent mail supports this.] I ported Venti the server to FreeBSD a year ago, though the port is incomplete and unsatisfactory for various reasons. I also wrote a program to store FFS file system images as vac-style streams and another program to parse the backed-up images and serve them over an NFS loopback server. We back up just under 200GB of disk every night. I'm very happy with it. amsterdam=; hist ~/.profile Sep 6 22:50:53 EDT 2003 /home/am3/rsc/.profile 900 Sep 6 22:50:53 EDT 2003 /dump/am3/2003/1010/rsc/.profile 900 Apr 10 18:30:26 EDT 2003 /dump/am3/2003/0906/rsc/.profile 851 Jan 27 18:22:32 EST 2003 /dump/am3/2003/0410/rsc/.profile 797 amsterdam=; These programs use the same unsatisfactory port environment. Over the next few months I plan to clean them up and make them build using the new port environment that I used for samterm (which I'd be packaging right now if I weren't writing this email ;-). I'm also thinking about various ways to speed up the Venti server (which is currently dog slow) but again that won't happen for a few months -- I'm up to my eyeballs in other things. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-11 2:14 ` Russ Cox @ 2003-10-11 17:05 ` a 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: a @ 2003-10-11 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans thanks, russ, this is what i was remembering. i will now return to patiently awaiting your results. :-) if you're interested (at any point), i've got a handfull of OS X boxes i could help test with... or if you'd like an account to work with... of course, i'll be grateful for whatever you produce. FreeBSD and OS X are close enough that i can generally make things work\0 (unless it's in the kernel). thanks again, ア ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-11 0:37 [9fans] venti ports and productization a ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2003-10-11 2:14 ` Russ Cox @ 2003-10-21 10:14 ` Martin C.Atkins 2003-10-21 10:20 ` a 2003-10-21 16:05 ` Rob Pike 3 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Martin C.Atkins @ 2003-10-21 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans, a On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:37:01 -0400 a@9srv.net wrote: > a few times someone (ehg?) has talked about work > being done to get venti working on other OSs, and >... Well, perhaps now is a good time to own up! (Sorry for the delay in responding, but we had to write a web-page first!) I have been working on a re-implementation of Venti - initially for Linux, but it should be easy to port the core functionality to other Unix-like platforms, and eventually to Windows (I suppose...). This is not a port of Venti, but a rewrite from scratch - I have not seen/got the Venti source, although I have read the paper, and the man pages. I'm using the same basic ideas of Venti, but also making a number of different technical tradeoffs. Some of these trade-offs still need to be validated in practice (I'm working on it! :-). Before some of you get too excited - it isn't protocol-compatible with Venti (at least, I don't think it is! That would be too much of a coincidence! (see above) :-) Our goal is to release this as a shareware-style product, hopefully this year, for a price that would be consistent with your $100/machine. I hadn't put a Mac OS X version high on the agenda - should I reconsider? :-) See http://www.parvat.com/products/eternal for more information. Martin -- Martin C. Atkins martin@parvat.com Parvat Infotech (Private) Limited http://www.parvat.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 10:14 ` Martin C.Atkins @ 2003-10-21 10:20 ` a 2003-10-21 14:26 ` jmk 2003-10-21 16:05 ` Rob Pike 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: a @ 2003-10-21 10:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans the fact that it's not protocol-compatable does lower (but not totally eliminate) its value to me. if your version doesn't run on Plan 9 and host fossil, that does, as well. on the other hand, even the ideas are worth a lot, and if you can put file systems on top of it (like fossil does, rather than just using it as an archival vault) that my unix systems can use, that's a big win. those first two points make me skeptical, but i'll be checking it out today. fix those two (so why didn't you use the venti code?) and provide a few tools my VP of Marketing can use, and get an OS X port, and i'll buy a few coppies. ア ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 10:20 ` a @ 2003-10-21 14:26 ` jmk 2003-10-21 15:35 ` a 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: jmk @ 2003-10-21 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue Oct 21 06:27:39 EDT 2003, a@9srv.net wrote: > ... > those first two points make me skeptical, but i'll be checking it > out today. fix those two (so why didn't you use the venti code?) > and provide a few tools my VP of Marketing can use, and get an > OS X port, and i'll buy a few coppies. > ア The feeling around here is that the Plan 9 Venti code is not a good base with which to start a port. There may be a re-implementation at some point, and it will be interesting to compare the tradeoffs each version makes. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 14:26 ` jmk @ 2003-10-21 15:35 ` a 2003-10-21 15:50 ` Russ Cox 2003-10-21 17:20 ` Scott Schwartz 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: a @ 2003-10-21 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans that's very interesting. my comment about "why rewrite" wasn't intended to necessarily imply it should've been done that way, although i realize it probably came off that way. what about the current implementation is at issue? and (the big question) is it expected that the new stuff will be protocol compatable? ア ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 15:35 ` a @ 2003-10-21 15:50 ` Russ Cox 2003-10-21 18:24 ` rog ` (2 more replies) 2003-10-21 17:20 ` Scott Schwartz 1 sibling, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2003-10-21 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > that's very interesting. my comment about "why rewrite" wasn't > intended to necessarily imply it should've been done that way, > although i realize it probably came off that way. what about > the current implementation is at issue? and (the big question) > is it expected that the new stuff will be protocol compatable? The protocol is almost completely trivial. There are only two interesting messages -- read and write. So ultimately it really doesn't matter. We have had problems with Venti since the Seans left, but I am not convinced that we really need to start over (perhaps I am the only one!). We have had some problems with the big Venti server, but my understanding is that all of the problems appeared to be disk corruption rather than software error. I think the biggest problem is that before the Seans left they didn't get the system scanning itself for damage regularly. Disks are going to fail and we need to replace them, but we haven't been. This does contrast with the WORM, where the platters fail much less frequently. Then again, the amount of code involved is so small that I do think that bulk alone doesn't justify sticking with the current code if you want to start over. If I started over, I suspect I would end up writing substantially the same code, so I don't see the point. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 15:50 ` Russ Cox @ 2003-10-21 18:24 ` rog 2003-10-22 4:33 ` okamoto 2003-10-22 14:57 ` Richard Miller 2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: rog @ 2003-10-21 18:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Then again, the amount of code involved is so small that > I do think that bulk alone doesn't justify sticking with > the current code if you want to start over. mind you, it looks like it could be somewhat smaller still. there are various bits that look quite complex but in fact are hardly used (e.g. /sys/src/libventi/packet.c) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 15:50 ` Russ Cox 2003-10-21 18:24 ` rog @ 2003-10-22 4:33 ` okamoto 2003-10-22 5:15 ` okamoto 2003-10-22 14:57 ` Richard Miller 2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: okamoto @ 2003-10-22 4:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Russ-- > I think the biggest problem is that > before the Seans left they didn't get the system scanning > itself for damage regularly. Disks are going to fail and > we need to replace them, but we haven't been. This does > contrast with the WORM, where the platters fail much less > frequently. Hmmm, somthing bad is happening in Bell-Labs... Ok, from now, I'll read messages more carefully. Don't forget, many of Plan 9 users are gratefull of your efforts on Plan 9. And also, I hope all the developping team of Plan 9 re-united as before. I understand many difficulties around Lucent, which may indicate that it's not the time to develope OS in a company alone anymore... I'm not sure, of course. --Kenji ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-22 4:33 ` okamoto @ 2003-10-22 5:15 ` okamoto 2003-10-22 9:48 ` a 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: okamoto @ 2003-10-22 5:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Awawawa----! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-22 5:15 ` okamoto @ 2003-10-22 9:48 ` a 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: a @ 2003-10-22 9:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans // Awawawa----! okay, my Japanese is a bit rusty (read: i only know about half a dozen words) but i'm pretty sure that translates to "Oh, so sorry. That was intended to go only to Russ, not the entire list. I'm quite embarrassed." marvelously efficient language. ア ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 15:50 ` Russ Cox 2003-10-21 18:24 ` rog 2003-10-22 4:33 ` okamoto @ 2003-10-22 14:57 ` Richard Miller 2003-10-22 16:54 ` jmk 2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Miller @ 2003-10-22 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > We have had some problems > with the big Venti server, but my understanding is that > all of the problems appeared to be disk corruption rather > than software error. The software could do a bit better in recovering from hardware errors. If a bad sector makes a venti block unreadable, rdarena and wrarena could use the redundant information in the arena trailer to skip the bad block and continue, but they just give up. Worse, if checkarenas (with -f) fails to read a block, instead of using the trailer information to skip the block, it tries to correct the mismatch between block label and trailer by copying garbage into the trailer entry from the buffer it just failed to read into. Oops. -- Richard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-22 14:57 ` Richard Miller @ 2003-10-22 16:54 ` jmk 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: jmk @ 2003-10-22 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed Oct 22 10:58:46 EDT 2003, miller@hamnavoe.demon.co.uk wrote: > > We have had some problems > > with the big Venti server, but my understanding is that > > all of the problems appeared to be disk corruption rather > > than software error. > > The software could do a bit better in recovering from hardware errors. > If a bad sector makes a venti block unreadable, rdarena and wrarena > could use the redundant information in the arena trailer to skip the > bad block and continue, but they just give up. Worse, if checkarenas > (with -f) fails to read a block, instead of using the trailer information > to skip the block, it tries to correct the mismatch between block label > and trailer by copying garbage into the trailer entry from the buffer > it just failed to read into. Oops. > > -- Richard That's pretty much right, in my limited experience. When I started looking at the errors we have I hacked up the arena read programme I have to do some resynchronisation, it needs more work, though. Looking at the errors we have, I don't think I'd ever want to write back into the arena to try to fix it, that stuff with VtTypeCorrupt just seems wrong (as does the definition of VtTypeCorrupt as VtMaxType). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 15:35 ` a 2003-10-21 15:50 ` Russ Cox @ 2003-10-21 17:20 ` Scott Schwartz 2003-10-21 21:30 ` C H Forsyth 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Scott Schwartz @ 2003-10-21 17:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans | the current implementation is at issue? and (the big question) | is it expected that the new stuff will be protocol compatable? That is the big question. Independent but compatable implementations is a sign of success. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 17:20 ` Scott Schwartz @ 2003-10-21 21:30 ` C H Forsyth 2003-10-21 22:13 ` Dan Cross 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: C H Forsyth @ 2003-10-21 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 53 bytes --] that's obviously why microsoft is a complete failure! [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2426 bytes --] From: Scott Schwartz <schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:20:50 -0400 Message-ID: <20031021172051.527.qmail@f.bio.cse.psu.edu> | the current implementation is at issue? and (the big question) | is it expected that the new stuff will be protocol compatable? That is the big question. Independent but compatable implementations is a sign of success. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 21:30 ` C H Forsyth @ 2003-10-21 22:13 ` Dan Cross 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2003-10-21 22:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > that's obviously why microsoft is a complete failure! But what Scott mentioned is only *one* sign of success! - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 10:14 ` Martin C.Atkins 2003-10-21 10:20 ` a @ 2003-10-21 16:05 ` Rob Pike 2003-10-21 16:50 ` rog 2003-10-22 9:52 ` Martin C.Atkins 1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Rob Pike @ 2003-10-21 16:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > > Before some of you get too excited - it isn't protocol-compatible > with Venti (at least, I don't think it is! That would be > too much of a coincidence! (see above) :-) you should make it protocol-compatible. can't be hard. ask for the details. > I hadn't put a Mac OS X version high on the agenda - should I > reconsider? :-) > yes. -rob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 16:05 ` Rob Pike @ 2003-10-21 16:50 ` rog 2003-10-22 9:52 ` Martin C.Atkins 1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: rog @ 2003-10-21 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 205 bytes --] > you should make it protocol-compatible. can't be hard. > ask for the details. i did most of a venti client-side module for inferno. attached + documentation for anyone that might find it useful. [-- Attachment #2: venti.tgz --] [-- Type: application/x-tar, Size: 6246 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] venti ports and productization 2003-10-21 16:05 ` Rob Pike 2003-10-21 16:50 ` rog @ 2003-10-22 9:52 ` Martin C.Atkins 1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Martin C.Atkins @ 2003-10-22 9:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:05:31 -0700 Rob Pike <rob@mightycheese.com> wrote: > > you should make it protocol-compatible. can't be hard. > ask for the details. and On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 06:20:47 -0400 a@9srv.net wrote: > the fact that it's not protocol-compatable does lower (but not > totally eliminate) its value to me. if your version doesn't run > on Plan 9 and host fossil, that does, as well. on the other hand, I'll have a look at what it would take to make the protocol compatible. Actually, one of the things I've chosen to do differently makes the protocol incompatible (it changes the 'score', in a way that I'd prefer not to discuss until I'm sure it is desirable!) However, it might be possible to support the Venti protocol simultaneously. Rog's Inferno code looks like a good starting point for information (thanks Rog!), although perhaps I could download the 'real thing' now, without it influencing my ideas too much about how to approach various design decisions. (I came across a 'Linux/BSD/etc CD' vendor here in Bangalore last week, who listed Plan 9 as being available - is there a Plan 9 UG in Bangalore?!) > those first two points make me skeptical, but i'll be checking it > out today. fix those two (so why didn't you use the venti code?) I also wanted to be very certain that no Venti code found its way into my implementation, lest I violate any copyrights. Patents, are of course another issue. I have searched without finding anything that seems relevant, but that is the problem with patents! > even the ideas are worth a lot, and if you can put file systems > on top of it (like fossil does, rather than just using it as an > archival vault) that my unix systems can use, that's a big win. I haven't any plans at the moment for a read-write filesystem, like fossil, but I certainly aim to provide something like /backup. > and provide a few tools my VP of Marketing can use, and get an > OS X port, and i'll buy a few coppies. We certainly intend that the system will be 'user-friendly', but in the Unix sense, not the lots-of-icons Windows sense. Martin -- Martin C. Atkins martin@parvat.com Parvat Infotech (Private) Limited http://www.parvat.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-10-22 16:54 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2003-10-11 0:37 [9fans] venti ports and productization a 2003-10-11 1:45 ` jmk 2003-10-11 1:50 ` bs 2003-10-11 2:14 ` Russ Cox 2003-10-11 17:05 ` a 2003-10-21 10:14 ` Martin C.Atkins 2003-10-21 10:20 ` a 2003-10-21 14:26 ` jmk 2003-10-21 15:35 ` a 2003-10-21 15:50 ` Russ Cox 2003-10-21 18:24 ` rog 2003-10-22 4:33 ` okamoto 2003-10-22 5:15 ` okamoto 2003-10-22 9:48 ` a 2003-10-22 14:57 ` Richard Miller 2003-10-22 16:54 ` jmk 2003-10-21 17:20 ` Scott Schwartz 2003-10-21 21:30 ` C H Forsyth 2003-10-21 22:13 ` Dan Cross 2003-10-21 16:05 ` Rob Pike 2003-10-21 16:50 ` rog 2003-10-22 9:52 ` Martin C.Atkins
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).