[9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Russ Cox]

it's like arguing with toothpaste.

exhibit a:

% cd /sys/src/libc/fmt; yesterday -d -0512 .
diff -n /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt /sys/src/libc/fmt
diff -n /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c
/n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:315 a /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:316
> 	uintptr pu;
/n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:324 c
/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:325,330
< 		u = (ulong)va_arg(f->args, void*);
---
> 		pu = va_arg(f->args, uintptr);
> 		if(sizeof(uintptr) == sizeof(uvlong)){
> 			vu = pu;
> 			isv = 1;
> 		}else
> 			u = pu;
% 

exhibit b:

On 5/14/05, 9trouble@plan9.bell-labs.com <9trouble@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> 1. <u.h> now includes a definition for uintptr, which we define
> to be an integer of the same width as a pointer.  Pointers and
> uintptrs should be printed using %p.

exhibit c: (weekend irc log for #plan9)

Major-Wi  :yup
          :seems like jmk has btoken fmtinstall()
          :as well

...

uriel     :oh, I fucking love it, latest changes to fmt stuff
          are by jmk, without comments, of course, so who knows
          what the fuck he did! marvelous

noselasd  :history/diff :-)

uriel     :noselasd: yes, but _why_

Major-Wi  :what a bitch
          :i know what jmk did
          :he added reentrancy for threads

uriel     :Major-Willard: 'fuck up'?
          :Major-Willard: oh, reentancy for threads?! Oh holy
          dear mother!

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Vester Thacker]

On 5/23/05, Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote:
> it's like arguing with toothpaste.

It's more like watching a soap opera and just as addictive.

-vester

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Bruce Ellis]

i think it was rob that once said "netnews is like standing up in
a crowded cinema and shouting ANYONE WANNA BUY A
USE CAR".  that's why i avoid stuff like IRC.  but this is coming
from me, the guy who polluted the fanways with starwars tripe.
every beer in my body apologizes.  now off to fight the ...
oh stop it.

brucee

On 5/23/05, Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/23/05, Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote:
> > it's like arguing with toothpaste.
> 
> It's more like watching a soap opera and just as addictive.
> 
> -vester

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Rob Pike]

it was honeyman who said that.

-rob

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Tim Newsham]

> it was honeyman who said that.

Ahh, DrHoney from IRC/EFNET..  Guess he found selling cars
in theaters profitable :)

> -rob

Tim Newsham
http://www.lava.net/~newsham/

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Dan Cross]

On Tue, May 24, 2005 at 03:44:28AM +1000, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> i think it was rob that once said "netnews is like standing up in
> a crowded cinema and shouting ANYONE WANNA BUY A
> USE CAR".  that's why i avoid stuff like IRC.

You know what....  I'm going to do that the next time I go to a movie,
just to see what happens.

> [...]
> every beer in my body apologizes.  now off to fight the ...
> oh stop it.

Hmm.  I have a few ex-girlfriends who might buy that as an
adequate substitute for an apology.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Uriel]

I publicly apologize for my inappropriate and misguided comments, my
apologies specially to JMK, who has done so much for Plan 9.

uriel

On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 07:27:30AM -0400, Russ Cox wrote:
> it's like arguing with toothpaste.
> 
> exhibit a:
> 
> % cd /sys/src/libc/fmt; yesterday -d -0512 .
> diff -n /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt /sys/src/libc/fmt
> diff -n /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c
> /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:315 a /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:316
> > 	uintptr pu;
> /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:324 c
> /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:325,330
> < 		u = (ulong)va_arg(f->args, void*);
> ---
> > 		pu = va_arg(f->args, uintptr);
> > 		if(sizeof(uintptr) == sizeof(uvlong)){
> > 			vu = pu;
> > 			isv = 1;
> > 		}else
> > 			u = pu;
> % 
> 
> exhibit b:
> 
> On 5/14/05, 9trouble@plan9.bell-labs.com <9trouble@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> > 1. <u.h> now includes a definition for uintptr, which we define
> > to be an integer of the same width as a pointer.  Pointers and
> > uintptrs should be printed using %p.
> 
> exhibit c: (weekend irc log for #plan9)
> 
> Major-Wi  :yup
>           :seems like jmk has btoken fmtinstall()
>           :as well
> 
> ...
> 
> uriel     :oh, I fucking love it, latest changes to fmt stuff
>           are by jmk, without comments, of course, so who knows
>           what the fuck he did! marvelous
> 
> noselasd  :history/diff :-)
> 
> uriel     :noselasd: yes, but _why_
> 
> Major-Wi  :what a bitch
>           :i know what jmk did
>           :he added reentrancy for threads
> 
> uriel     :Major-Willard: 'fuck up'?
>           :Major-Willard: oh, reentancy for threads?! Oh holy
>           dear mother!

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[jmk]

You don't need to apologise to me, if you are of the opinion I
am a condescending prejudiced dickhead who does nothing, that's
up to you.
But it might behoove you to occasionally question the errors,
misinformation and embellishments which are all too often presented
to you as fact.

--jim

On Mon May 23 08:22:49 EDT 2005, uriell@binarydream.org wrote:
> I publicly apologize for my inappropriate and misguided comments, my
> apologies specially to JMK, who has done so much for Plan 9.
> 
> uriel
> 

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Country Joe]

 Never apologize for showing feeling. When you do so, you apologize for truth.
 
 Benjamin Disraeli
 British politician (1804 - 1881)



On Mon, 23 May 2005 13:22:25 +0100
Uriel <uriell@binarydream.org> wrote:

> I publicly apologize for my inappropriate and misguided comments, my
> apologies specially to JMK, who has done so much for Plan 9.
> 
> uriel

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Chris Collins]

Russ Cox was once rumoured to have said:
> it's like arguing with toothpaste.

Sure, you might not like the IRC crowd, but posting this to 9fans in
anger over a few members of #plan9 is about as mature as the US
walking into the Gulf because "members of al Qaida, an organization
bearing responsiblity for attacks on the United States, its citizens,
and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11,
2001, are known to be in Iraq"[1].

#plan9 provides a multilingual, almost 24 hour/day, support service
for free due to the efforts of its members.  

It also serves a general port of call for those of us actively
developing or porting to bounce ideas off of people in real-time -
something that can't easily be done on (and isn't really suited
for[2]) a public mailing list.

Of course, one has to take things said on #plan9 with a pinch of salt,
but that is the nature of IRC and applies equally to any channel.

C.

[1] HJ 114 IH - "Authorisation for use of military force against
    Iraq"

[2] Media Richness Theory / Media Synchronicity Theory - early
    phases of collaborative or planning work tends to start in a
    "conveyance" phase which demands more interactive forms of
    communication.

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[andrey mirtchovski]

> Sure, you might not like the IRC crowd, but posting this to 9fans in
> anger over a few members of #plan9 is about as mature

it's a good idea to forewarn other 9fans of the perils of
#plan9@freenode lest they make the mistake of joining.  of those 9fans
who have, in the past, visited the channel, 99% have left and haven't
looked back.  that's skip, geoff, charles, ron, russ, just off the top
of my head.  most of the new guys of the block have also at one time
or another quit with the promise to 'never come back'.

> #plan9 provides a multilingual, almost 24 hour/day, support service
> for free due to the efforts of its members.  

no, not really a 'support' service. more of a 'bash the newbie' service.

> It also serves a general port of call for those of us actively
> developing or porting to bounce ideas off of people in real-time -
> something that can't easily be done on (and isn't really suited
> for[2]) a public mailing list.

#plan9 never has and never will serve as a developer channel.
signal/noise ratio is too low.  any useful comments are quickly
drowned in the sea of drivel.  grep the logs for expletives -- you'll
find more there than in a linux driver for sparc hardware.

andrey/f2f

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Eric Van Hensbergen]

On 5/23/05, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> 
> #plan9 never has and never will serve as a developer channel.
> signal/noise ratio is too low.  any useful comments are quickly
> drowned in the sea of drivel.  grep the logs for expletives -- you'll
> find more there than in a linux driver for sparc hardware.
> 

What's the solution then?  Having a more interactive venue to
coordinate development activities is a really nice thing, particularly
with such a sparse group.  For individuals folks have personality
conflicts with, /ignore is a wonderful thing.  Of course that doesn't
help the newbies.

      -eric

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[andrey mirtchovski]

> What's the solution then?  Having a more interactive venue to
> coordinate development activities is a really nice thing, particularly
> with such a sparse group.  For individuals folks have personality
> conflicts with, /ignore is a wonderful thing.  Of course that doesn't
> help the newbies.
> 
>       -eric

people seem to have found a solution by creating smaller channels with
a particular purpose.  the v9fs developer channel is an example, do
you think it works?  others have made attempts to diffuse flamewars to
an off-topic channel too, but i have no idea how well that worked out.
nobody goes to #plan9 anymore expecting to do any serious work either,
so the problem kind of fixed itself, except, as you say, for the newbies.

#plan9 == #plan9advocacy (and if you mention browsers there you get nuked!)

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Tim Newsham]

>> #plan9 never has and never will serve as a developer channel.
>> signal/noise ratio is too low.  any useful comments are quickly
>> drowned in the sea of drivel.  grep the logs for expletives -- you'll
>> find more there than in a linux driver for sparc hardware.
>
> What's the solution then?  Having a more interactive venue to

Despite what Andrey said (most of which is true), IRC is still
the first place I'd recommend someone with a plan9 question
go ask.  Depending on who is watching, they could get a good
answer, or perhaps just a snide 'RTFM.'  When it works it
works well and when it doesn't, there's 9fans for a slightly
less timely response.

I also think IRC somewhat works for development chat.  People
who are interested in development can talk to each other.  Its
not hard to ignore people who arent contributing.

So, yah, you dont get free multilingual, almost 24 hour/day
support service for free... there's a cost -- occasional
newbie bashing, dick swinging and off-topic rants.  All told
still a good buy.

>      -eric

Tim Newsham
http://www.lava.net/~newsham/

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Russ Cox]

Chris Collins:
> Sure, you might not like the IRC crowd, but posting this to 9fans in
> anger over a few members of #plan9 is about as mature as ...
> 
> #plan9 provides a multilingual, almost 24 hour/day, support service
> for free due to the efforts of its members.

I have not posted my opinion of the IRC crowd.  I merely posted some
evidence that they were, one one particular occasion, completely
full of shit.  People can make their own decisions about whether
to generalize.

Tim Newsham:
> Despite what Andrey said (most of which is true), IRC is still
> the first place I'd recommend someone with a plan9 question
> go ask.  Depending on who is watching, they could get a good
> answer, or perhaps just a snide 'RTFM.'  When it works it
> works well and when it doesn't, there's 9fans for a slightly
> less timely response.

I think reading the FAQ, poking around the Wiki, and then
asking on 9fans is a much more reliable way to go.

Poking around the IRC logs from the first week of May,
I have learned that the /sys/src/9 kernels have no
SCSI support (only /sys/src/fs does) and that there is 
no way for acme to pipe the current buffer through a
program.  Sometimes, when such misinformation is stated
as fact, someone is around to correct it.  But just as often
it seems that no one is around to correct it.  And if you're
a newbie and you get the latter, I don't believe that you've
done better than asking on 9fans and waiting a little while.

Russ

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Vester Thacker]

On 5/25/05, Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have not posted my opinion of the IRC crowd.  I merely posted some
> evidence that they were, one one particular occasion, completely
> full of shit.  People can make their own decisions about whether
> to generalize.

Rationalize. One out of how many? We are not talking all or nothing. 
 
> I think reading the FAQ, poking around the Wiki, and then
> asking on 9fans is a much more reliable way to go.

Sure, but a lot of folks that we meet on IRC rush into Plan 9 and hit 
hurdles during the install/configuration process. Then they want 
answers, so they go to IRC for a quick remedy. 

We are the first response team for their answers. I do not believe 
that the folks volunteering to help on IRC are out to misguide people 
intentionally. Granted a few tend to be a little overzealous at times,
but not always.

I am not certain that telling the consumer that he/she should go
to a mailing list for the quick answer is always the best solution.
It seems that IRC will alleviate the problem sooner. Granted if 
the question is more technical, it should go to 9fans.

I'll meet you half way and say that if one of our volunteers 
berates one of the newbies, I'll ban the offender from the #plan9
channel. I'll even go the extra mile to have them banned from
freenode. We could go with a no tolerance approach, or a 3
strikes and your out approach. 

> Poking around the IRC logs from the first week of May,
> I have learned that the /sys/src/9 kernels have no
> SCSI support (only /sys/src/fs does) and that there is
> no way for acme to pipe the current buffer through a
> program.  Sometimes, when such misinformation is stated
> as fact, someone is around to correct it.  But just as often
> it seems that no one is around to correct it.  And if you're
> a newbie and you get the latter, I don't believe that you've
> done better than asking on 9fans and waiting a little while.

It's a fact of life that people make mistakes. If we hit an 
85 percent accuracy rate then we are doing great. Most 
weather forecasters don't do that well.

-vester

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[William Josephson]

On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 01:39:12AM +0900, Vester Thacker wrote:
> It's a fact of life that people make mistakes. If we hit an 
> 85 percent accuracy rate then we are doing great. Most 
> weather forecasters don't do that well.

The thing is, if one doesn't know the answer, one
shouldn't make it up.  It doesn't take complicated
statistical models to figure out which kernels have
SCSI and which don't.

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Vester Thacker]

On 5/25/05, William Josephson <jkw@eecs.harvard.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 01:39:12AM +0900, Vester Thacker wrote:
> > It's a fact of life that people make mistakes. If we hit an
> > 85 percent accuracy rate then we are doing great. Most
> > weather forecasters don't do that well.
> 
> The thing is, if one doesn't know the answer, one
> shouldn't make it up.  It doesn't take complicated
> statistical models to figure out which kernels have
> SCSI and which don't.

But the question really is then, is the service worth the risk?

-vester

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[McLone]

On 5/24/05, William Josephson <jkw@eecs.harvard.edu> wrote:
> It doesn't take complicated statistical models
> to figure out which kernels have SCSI and which don't.
c'mon, that was me asking IIRC,
and knowing the fact that even 9load does some SCSI...

_My_ brain-implanted noicefilter worked out perfectly on that one.
-- 
wbr,                        |\      _,,,---,,_           dog bless ya!
`                       Zzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_
McLone at GMail dot com    |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'
  net- and *BSD admin     '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)   ...sorry for translit

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Vester Thacker]

On 5/25/05, Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'll meet you half way and say that if one of our volunteers
> berates one of the newbies, I'll ban the offender from the #plan9
> channel. I'll even go the extra mile to have them banned from
> freenode. We could go with a no tolerance approach, or a 3
> strikes and your out approach.

I'd like to retract this statement. 

I hope everyone is well.

-vester

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Vester Thacker]

On 6/19/05, Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/25/05, Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'll meet you half way and say that if one of our volunteers
> > berates one of the newbies, I'll ban the offender from the #plan9
> > channel. I'll even go the extra mile to have them banned from
> > freenode. We could go with a no tolerance approach, or a 3
> > strikes and your out approach.
> 
> I'd like to retract this statement.

The above statement that is.

-vester

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Chris Collins]

Russ Cox was once rumoured to have said:
> Tim Newsham:
> > Despite what Andrey said (most of which is true), IRC is still
> > the first place I'd recommend someone with a plan9 question
> > go ask.  Depending on who is watching, they could get a good
> > answer, or perhaps just a snide 'RTFM.'  When it works it
> > works well and when it doesn't, there's 9fans for a slightly
> > less timely response.
> 
> I think reading the FAQ, poking around the Wiki, and then
> asking on 9fans is a much more reliable way to go.
> 
> Poking around the IRC logs from the first week of May,
> I have learned that the /sys/src/9 kernels have no
> SCSI support (only /sys/src/fs does) and that there is 
> no way for acme to pipe the current buffer through a
> program.  Sometimes, when such misinformation is stated
> as fact, someone is around to correct it.  But just as often
> it seems that no one is around to correct it.  And if you're
> a newbie and you get the latter, I don't believe that you've
> done better than asking on 9fans and waiting a little while.

Of course, if you had actually bothered to hang around and listen, you
would have had heard the prior case (SCSI support) corrected at the
very least. (I was online to see that one myself).

C.

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Russ Cox]

On 5/24/05, Chris Collins <xfire-9fans@xware.cx> wrote:
> Russ Cox was once rumoured to have said:
> > Tim Newsham:
> > > Despite what Andrey said (most of which is true), IRC is still
> > > the first place I'd recommend someone with a plan9 question
> > > go ask.  Depending on who is watching, they could get a good
> > > answer, or perhaps just a snide 'RTFM.'  When it works it
> > > works well and when it doesn't, there's 9fans for a slightly
> > > less timely response.
> >
> > I think reading the FAQ, poking around the Wiki, and then
> > asking on 9fans is a much more reliable way to go.
> >
> > Poking around the IRC logs from the first week of May,
> > I have learned that the /sys/src/9 kernels have no
> > SCSI support (only /sys/src/fs does) and that there is
> > no way for acme to pipe the current buffer through a
> > program.  Sometimes, when such misinformation is stated
> > as fact, someone is around to correct it.  But just as often
> > it seems that no one is around to correct it.  And if you're
> > a newbie and you get the latter, I don't believe that you've
> > done better than asking on 9fans and waiting a little while.
> 
> Of course, if you had actually bothered to hang around and listen, you
> would have had heard the prior case (SCSI support) corrected at the
> very least. (I was online to see that one myself).

Sometimes, when such misinformation is stated
as fact, someone is around to correct it.  But just as often
it seems that no one is around to correct it.  And if you're
a newbie and you get the latter, I don't believe that you've
done better than asking on 9fans and waiting a little while.

The SCSI comment did get corrected, eventually, though
the comment about acme not being able to pipe a buffer
through an external program did not.

Russ

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[David Leimbach]

> The SCSI comment did get corrected, eventually, though
> the comment about acme not being able to pipe a buffer
> through an external program did not.
> 
> Russ
> 

Misinformation will continue to exist no matter what.  People just get
stuff wrong.  They can even get it wrong here.  I don't think removing
IRC is going to solve that problem.

IRC just allows you to be wrong faster :)

Dave

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Bruce Ellis]

On 5/26/05, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
> IRC just allows you to be wrong faster :)
> 
> Dave

Or to be helpful quicker, as Skip's experiment demonstrated.

#plan9: correct answer in a few minutes.
9fans: no answer so far (1 day).

I don't know what this discussion is supposed to prove.

Russ spends time tracking down two errors in #plan9.
Sample space - large.  Errors - 2.

Turns out one was quickly corrected so even without grepping
through 9fans we see one error in 9fans - quickly corrected.

Perhaps it's time for technical discussion rather than talking
about talking about plan9.

Just my morning rant.

brucee

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Abhey Shah]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 774 bytes --]

Apologies for larding up the list with flippant  Simpsons' quotes but 
this one is appropriate for many situations.

  Homer: There are three ways to do things: the right way, the wrong 
way, and the Max Power way!
Bart: Isn't that just the wrong way?
Homer: Yeah, but faster!



On 25 May 2005, at 17:42, David Leimbach wrote:

>> The SCSI comment did get corrected, eventually, though
>> the comment about acme not being able to pipe a buffer
>> through an external program did not.
>>
>> Russ
>>
>
> Misinformation will continue to exist no matter what.  People just get
> stuff wrong.  They can even get it wrong here.  I don't think removing
> IRC is going to solve that problem.
>
> IRC just allows you to be wrong faster :)
>
> Dave
>
>


[-- Attachment #2.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 282 bytes --]

from postmaster@ethel:
The following attachment had content that we can't
prove to be harmless.  To avoid possible automatic
execution, we changed the content headers.
The original header was:

	Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
	Content-Type: text/enriched;
	charset=US-ASCII

[-- Attachment #2.2: file.suspect --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 862 bytes --]

Apologies for larding up the list with flippant  Simpsons' quotes but
this one is appropriate for many situations.


<fontfamily><param>Verdana</param> Homer: There are three ways to do
things: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power way! 

Bart: Isn't that just the wrong way? 

Homer: Yeah, but faster!



</fontfamily>

On 25 May 2005, at 17:42, David Leimbach wrote:


<excerpt><excerpt>The SCSI comment did get corrected, eventually,
though

the comment about acme not being able to pipe a buffer

through an external program did not.


Russ


</excerpt>

Misinformation will continue to exist no matter what.  People just get

stuff wrong.  They can even get it wrong here.  I don't think removing

IRC is going to solve that problem.


IRC just allows you to be wrong faster :)


Dave



</excerpt>

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Dan Cross]

On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 07:07:21AM +1000, Chris Collins wrote:
> Of course, if you had actually bothered to hang around and listen, you
> would have had heard the prior case (SCSI support) corrected at the
> very least. (I was online to see that one myself).

The thing is, there's a temporal quality to information in a medium
like IRC that affects the total accumulation of data.  Unlike a mailing
list, where you can be relatively assured the subject will receive
updates to incorrect information, IRC has no such guarantee.  One might
answer a question incorrectly, and the person who asked might say,
``great, thanks, bye!'' and immediately log off.  Then, it doesn't
matter if the correction gets made.  Because the data isn't accumulated
over time, the damage done by the bad data remains done.  The
correction is never applied.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Jack Johnson]

On 5/24/05, Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote:
> Because the data isn't accumulated over time, the damage
> done by the bad data remains done.  The correction is never applied.

So, this begs the question, do people using IRC understand this?  If
so, then the newbie swears, tries again with a new crowd, or tries
9fans and waits.  If not, then they assume the software is broken or
that it will not do what it asks and they give up.

If I were really concerned about the quality of information on IRC, I
would donate an hour a week to straightening out the locals or just
roll an infobot that references the wiki and the mailing list archives
and let the locals qualify the result with their own $0.02 (though
possibly not USD).

Otherwise, I would assume the visitors were looking for easy
information and that they realize they might not walk away with
answers.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Devon H. O'Dell]

Jack Johnson wrote:
> On 5/24/05, Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote:
> 
>>Because the data isn't accumulated over time, the damage
>>done by the bad data remains done.  The correction is never applied.
> 
> 
> So, this begs the question, do people using IRC understand this?  If
> so, then the newbie swears, tries again with a new crowd, or tries
> 9fans and waits.  If not, then they assume the software is broken or
> that it will not do what it asks and they give up.

No, they do not. When I first started in there, I was given absolute 
hell and did not understand what everyone's problem was. I've come to 
appreciate that some of that attitude is qualified by being a Plan 9 
user/developer/enthusiast as I have taken some of the mental stances myself.

But I still notice that far too many people (potential developers 
included!) have been scared away by the overzealous ideals and twisted 
advocacy of some individuals.

This has caused me to `indefinitely' leave the channel. At least until I 
noticed it getting better. During this time, I started #Plan-9, which 
was pretty successful at getting people who really wanted to talk about 
Plan 9 to do so in a kind fashion. It still exists, though the 
conversation has moved en masse back to #Plan9.

Surprisingly, it did. I still notice some of the behaviors, but they are 
in general getting better. Unfortunately, I have not been around for the 
last set of quotes that sparked this thread. Normally, I check uriel on 
his statements.

> If I were really concerned about the quality of information on IRC, I
> would donate an hour a week to straightening out the locals or just
> roll an infobot that references the wiki and the mailing list archives
> and let the locals qualify the result with their own $0.02 (though
> possibly not USD).

There are a lot of great minds in #Plan9. Infrequently, I see Ron, 
Andrey and Russ. Other than that, there's usually Vester, Boyd, Steve 
Simon, Tim Newsham, Eric van Hensbergen and myself. I'm probably leaving 
lots of people out; this is simply to give people an idea.

In general, the discussion is good when I'm discussing, simply because 
interesting development / usage issues are being discussed. I tend to 
leave when it gets too hairy. Which is why it's oddly good discussion 
when I'm there ;). (Don't mean to glorify myself one bit).

> Otherwise, I would assume the visitors were looking for easy
> information and that they realize they might not walk away with
> answers.
> 
> -Jack

This is always something to watch out for on IRC, and unfortunately many 
IRC newbies do not understand this.

I'd say it's generally a good place. But you have to know who to watch 
for. Generally that's straightforward, but it can get messy sometimes.

In any case, I think this thread is somewhat moot. IRC is known for its 
crap; I think it just hits us hard because it's such a niche OS (at the 
moment, at least). The best thing to do (in my experience) is say `BS, 
<user>' and drop it. /ignore also works wonders for most clients.

I might petition Freenode to make a ##Plan9 channel per its ridiculous 
`this is not an official project channel' guidelines, but it might help 
users who are new to Freenode (who have read the page / MOTD) to 
understand that it's not an official channel.

Kind regards,

Devon H. O'Dell

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[McLone]

On 5/25/05, Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote:
> updates to incorrect information, IRC has no such guarantee.  One might
> answer a question incorrectly, and the person who asked might say,
> ``great, thanks, bye!'' and immediately log off.
/msg memoserv help

-- 
wbr,                        |\      _,,,---,,_           dog bless ya!
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McLone at GMail dot com    |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'
  net- and *BSD admin     '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)   ...sorry for translit

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Devon H. O'Dell]

McLone wrote:
> On 5/25/05, Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote:
> 
>>updates to incorrect information, IRC has no such guarantee.  One might
>>answer a question incorrectly, and the person who asked might say,
>>``great, thanks, bye!'' and immediately log off.
> 
> /msg memoserv help
> 

Assumes user is registered with nickserv.

--Devon

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Dan Cross]

On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 07:04:24AM +0300, McLone wrote:
> /msg memoserv help

I have no idea what that does.  Evidently, it sends a help request
message to some sort of `bot' that can serve memos (that much is
obvious); perhaps you're implying that you can use this as a way to
implement a FAQ listing.  Regardless, I don't see how it addresses my
point:  In the IRC model, if you get bad data, you have significantly
less chance of getting a correction if you don't stick around and
monitor future traffic to pick it out.  If someone who doesn't know the
answer isn't monitoring, you have no chance of getting a correction,
unless people sit around and read IRC logs and go back and post
corrections to questions asked in the past and unrelated to the current
topic(s) of discussion in the channel (that's another thing about IRC:
you don't get threading in the robust way you do with a mailing list or
even, God Forbid, USENET Newsgroups).

And then you're back to waiting around until someone who knows what
they're talking about sees the request, which is the same situation you
have with 9fans.  Or somebody says, ``ask the bot....'' and you spend
time figuring out how, but even then the bot may not be programmed with
the answer to YOUR question.  You might as well read the Wiki instead.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Dan Cross]

On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 07:03:07PM -0500, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> What's the solution then?  Having a more interactive venue to
> coordinate development activities is a really nice thing, particularly
> with such a sparse group.  For individuals folks have personality
> conflicts with, /ignore is a wonderful thing.  Of course that doesn't
> help the newbies.

Writefs on 9grid.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Lucio De Re]

> Writefs on 9grid.

With an ACME-only interface?  I'll buy that!

++L

Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> Sure, you might not like the IRC crowd, but posting this to 9fans in
> anger over a few members of #plan9 is about as mature as the US
> walking into the Gulf because "members of al Qaida, an organization
> bearing responsiblity for attacks on the United States, its citizens,
> and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11,
> 2001, are known to be in Iraq"[1].

Participating in the #plan9 irc is like taking an evening stroll
through the streets of Baghdad; you will occasionally get sniped at.