* [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc @ 2005-05-23 11:27 Russ Cox 2005-05-23 12:18 ` Vester Thacker ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2005-05-23 11:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans it's like arguing with toothpaste. exhibit a: % cd /sys/src/libc/fmt; yesterday -d -0512 . diff -n /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt /sys/src/libc/fmt diff -n /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:315 a /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:316 > uintptr pu; /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:324 c /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:325,330 < u = (ulong)va_arg(f->args, void*); --- > pu = va_arg(f->args, uintptr); > if(sizeof(uintptr) == sizeof(uvlong)){ > vu = pu; > isv = 1; > }else > u = pu; % exhibit b: On 5/14/05, 9trouble@plan9.bell-labs.com <9trouble@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote: > 1. <u.h> now includes a definition for uintptr, which we define > to be an integer of the same width as a pointer. Pointers and > uintptrs should be printed using %p. exhibit c: (weekend irc log for #plan9) Major-Wi :yup :seems like jmk has btoken fmtinstall() :as well ... uriel :oh, I fucking love it, latest changes to fmt stuff are by jmk, without comments, of course, so who knows what the fuck he did! marvelous noselasd :history/diff :-) uriel :noselasd: yes, but _why_ Major-Wi :what a bitch :i know what jmk did :he added reentrancy for threads uriel :Major-Willard: 'fuck up'? :Major-Willard: oh, reentancy for threads?! Oh holy dear mother! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 11:27 [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc Russ Cox @ 2005-05-23 12:18 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-23 17:44 ` Bruce Ellis 2005-05-23 12:22 ` Uriel 2005-05-23 23:33 ` Chris Collins 2 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Vester Thacker @ 2005-05-23 12:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Russ Cox, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/23/05, Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote: > it's like arguing with toothpaste. It's more like watching a soap opera and just as addictive. -vester ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 12:18 ` Vester Thacker @ 2005-05-23 17:44 ` Bruce Ellis 2005-05-23 17:46 ` Rob Pike 2005-05-24 4:41 ` Dan Cross 0 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2005-05-23 17:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Vester Thacker, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs i think it was rob that once said "netnews is like standing up in a crowded cinema and shouting ANYONE WANNA BUY A USE CAR". that's why i avoid stuff like IRC. but this is coming from me, the guy who polluted the fanways with starwars tripe. every beer in my body apologizes. now off to fight the ... oh stop it. brucee On 5/23/05, Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote: > On 5/23/05, Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote: > > it's like arguing with toothpaste. > > It's more like watching a soap opera and just as addictive. > > -vester ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 17:44 ` Bruce Ellis @ 2005-05-23 17:46 ` Rob Pike 2005-05-23 18:43 ` Tim Newsham 2005-05-24 4:41 ` Dan Cross 1 sibling, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Rob Pike @ 2005-05-23 17:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bruce Ellis, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs it was honeyman who said that. -rob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 17:46 ` Rob Pike @ 2005-05-23 18:43 ` Tim Newsham 0 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Tim Newsham @ 2005-05-23 18:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Rob Pike, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > it was honeyman who said that. Ahh, DrHoney from IRC/EFNET.. Guess he found selling cars in theaters profitable :) > -rob Tim Newsham http://www.lava.net/~newsham/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 17:44 ` Bruce Ellis 2005-05-23 17:46 ` Rob Pike @ 2005-05-24 4:41 ` Dan Cross 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2005-05-24 4:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bruce Ellis, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Tue, May 24, 2005 at 03:44:28AM +1000, Bruce Ellis wrote: > i think it was rob that once said "netnews is like standing up in > a crowded cinema and shouting ANYONE WANNA BUY A > USE CAR". that's why i avoid stuff like IRC. You know what.... I'm going to do that the next time I go to a movie, just to see what happens. > [...] > every beer in my body apologizes. now off to fight the ... > oh stop it. Hmm. I have a few ex-girlfriends who might buy that as an adequate substitute for an apology. - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 11:27 [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc Russ Cox 2005-05-23 12:18 ` Vester Thacker @ 2005-05-23 12:22 ` Uriel 2005-05-23 15:55 ` jmk 2005-05-24 0:54 ` Country Joe 2005-05-23 23:33 ` Chris Collins 2 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Uriel @ 2005-05-23 12:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I publicly apologize for my inappropriate and misguided comments, my apologies specially to JMK, who has done so much for Plan 9. uriel On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 07:27:30AM -0400, Russ Cox wrote: > it's like arguing with toothpaste. > > exhibit a: > > % cd /sys/src/libc/fmt; yesterday -d -0512 . > diff -n /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt /sys/src/libc/fmt > diff -n /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c > /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:315 a /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:316 > > uintptr pu; > /n/dump/2005/0512/sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:324 c > /sys/src/libc/fmt/dofmt.c:325,330 > < u = (ulong)va_arg(f->args, void*); > --- > > pu = va_arg(f->args, uintptr); > > if(sizeof(uintptr) == sizeof(uvlong)){ > > vu = pu; > > isv = 1; > > }else > > u = pu; > % > > exhibit b: > > On 5/14/05, 9trouble@plan9.bell-labs.com <9trouble@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote: > > 1. <u.h> now includes a definition for uintptr, which we define > > to be an integer of the same width as a pointer. Pointers and > > uintptrs should be printed using %p. > > exhibit c: (weekend irc log for #plan9) > > Major-Wi :yup > :seems like jmk has btoken fmtinstall() > :as well > > ... > > uriel :oh, I fucking love it, latest changes to fmt stuff > are by jmk, without comments, of course, so who knows > what the fuck he did! marvelous > > noselasd :history/diff :-) > > uriel :noselasd: yes, but _why_ > > Major-Wi :what a bitch > :i know what jmk did > :he added reentrancy for threads > > uriel :Major-Willard: 'fuck up'? > :Major-Willard: oh, reentancy for threads?! Oh holy > dear mother! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 12:22 ` Uriel @ 2005-05-23 15:55 ` jmk 2005-05-24 0:54 ` Country Joe 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: jmk @ 2005-05-23 15:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans You don't need to apologise to me, if you are of the opinion I am a condescending prejudiced dickhead who does nothing, that's up to you. But it might behoove you to occasionally question the errors, misinformation and embellishments which are all too often presented to you as fact. --jim On Mon May 23 08:22:49 EDT 2005, uriell@binarydream.org wrote: > I publicly apologize for my inappropriate and misguided comments, my > apologies specially to JMK, who has done so much for Plan 9. > > uriel > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 12:22 ` Uriel 2005-05-23 15:55 ` jmk @ 2005-05-24 0:54 ` Country Joe 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Country Joe @ 2005-05-24 0:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Never apologize for showing feeling. When you do so, you apologize for truth. Benjamin Disraeli British politician (1804 - 1881) On Mon, 23 May 2005 13:22:25 +0100 Uriel <uriell@binarydream.org> wrote: > I publicly apologize for my inappropriate and misguided comments, my > apologies specially to JMK, who has done so much for Plan 9. > > uriel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 11:27 [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc Russ Cox 2005-05-23 12:18 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-23 12:22 ` Uriel @ 2005-05-23 23:33 ` Chris Collins 2005-05-23 23:57 ` andrey mirtchovski 2005-05-24 0:14 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Chris Collins @ 2005-05-23 23:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Russ Cox, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Russ Cox was once rumoured to have said: > it's like arguing with toothpaste. Sure, you might not like the IRC crowd, but posting this to 9fans in anger over a few members of #plan9 is about as mature as the US walking into the Gulf because "members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsiblity for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq"[1]. #plan9 provides a multilingual, almost 24 hour/day, support service for free due to the efforts of its members. It also serves a general port of call for those of us actively developing or porting to bounce ideas off of people in real-time - something that can't easily be done on (and isn't really suited for[2]) a public mailing list. Of course, one has to take things said on #plan9 with a pinch of salt, but that is the nature of IRC and applies equally to any channel. C. [1] HJ 114 IH - "Authorisation for use of military force against Iraq" [2] Media Richness Theory / Media Synchronicity Theory - early phases of collaborative or planning work tends to start in a "conveyance" phase which demands more interactive forms of communication. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 23:33 ` Chris Collins @ 2005-05-23 23:57 ` andrey mirtchovski 2005-05-24 0:03 ` Eric Van Hensbergen 2005-05-24 0:14 ` Skip Tavakkolian 1 sibling, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2005-05-23 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Sure, you might not like the IRC crowd, but posting this to 9fans in > anger over a few members of #plan9 is about as mature it's a good idea to forewarn other 9fans of the perils of #plan9@freenode lest they make the mistake of joining. of those 9fans who have, in the past, visited the channel, 99% have left and haven't looked back. that's skip, geoff, charles, ron, russ, just off the top of my head. most of the new guys of the block have also at one time or another quit with the promise to 'never come back'. > #plan9 provides a multilingual, almost 24 hour/day, support service > for free due to the efforts of its members. no, not really a 'support' service. more of a 'bash the newbie' service. > It also serves a general port of call for those of us actively > developing or porting to bounce ideas off of people in real-time - > something that can't easily be done on (and isn't really suited > for[2]) a public mailing list. #plan9 never has and never will serve as a developer channel. signal/noise ratio is too low. any useful comments are quickly drowned in the sea of drivel. grep the logs for expletives -- you'll find more there than in a linux driver for sparc hardware. andrey/f2f ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 23:57 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2005-05-24 0:03 ` Eric Van Hensbergen 2005-05-24 0:12 ` andrey mirtchovski ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Eric Van Hensbergen @ 2005-05-24 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/23/05, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> wrote: > > #plan9 never has and never will serve as a developer channel. > signal/noise ratio is too low. any useful comments are quickly > drowned in the sea of drivel. grep the logs for expletives -- you'll > find more there than in a linux driver for sparc hardware. > What's the solution then? Having a more interactive venue to coordinate development activities is a really nice thing, particularly with such a sparse group. For individuals folks have personality conflicts with, /ignore is a wonderful thing. Of course that doesn't help the newbies. -eric ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 0:03 ` Eric Van Hensbergen @ 2005-05-24 0:12 ` andrey mirtchovski 2005-05-24 4:29 ` Tim Newsham 2005-05-24 4:46 ` Dan Cross 2 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2005-05-24 0:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ericvh, 9fans > What's the solution then? Having a more interactive venue to > coordinate development activities is a really nice thing, particularly > with such a sparse group. For individuals folks have personality > conflicts with, /ignore is a wonderful thing. Of course that doesn't > help the newbies. > > -eric people seem to have found a solution by creating smaller channels with a particular purpose. the v9fs developer channel is an example, do you think it works? others have made attempts to diffuse flamewars to an off-topic channel too, but i have no idea how well that worked out. nobody goes to #plan9 anymore expecting to do any serious work either, so the problem kind of fixed itself, except, as you say, for the newbies. #plan9 == #plan9advocacy (and if you mention browsers there you get nuked!) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 0:03 ` Eric Van Hensbergen 2005-05-24 0:12 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2005-05-24 4:29 ` Tim Newsham 2005-05-24 15:19 ` Russ Cox 2005-05-24 4:46 ` Dan Cross 2 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Tim Newsham @ 2005-05-24 4:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eric Van Hensbergen, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs >> #plan9 never has and never will serve as a developer channel. >> signal/noise ratio is too low. any useful comments are quickly >> drowned in the sea of drivel. grep the logs for expletives -- you'll >> find more there than in a linux driver for sparc hardware. > > What's the solution then? Having a more interactive venue to Despite what Andrey said (most of which is true), IRC is still the first place I'd recommend someone with a plan9 question go ask. Depending on who is watching, they could get a good answer, or perhaps just a snide 'RTFM.' When it works it works well and when it doesn't, there's 9fans for a slightly less timely response. I also think IRC somewhat works for development chat. People who are interested in development can talk to each other. Its not hard to ignore people who arent contributing. So, yah, you dont get free multilingual, almost 24 hour/day support service for free... there's a cost -- occasional newbie bashing, dick swinging and off-topic rants. All told still a good buy. > -eric Tim Newsham http://www.lava.net/~newsham/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 4:29 ` Tim Newsham @ 2005-05-24 15:19 ` Russ Cox 2005-05-24 16:39 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-24 21:07 ` Chris Collins 0 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2005-05-24 15:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Chris Collins: > Sure, you might not like the IRC crowd, but posting this to 9fans in > anger over a few members of #plan9 is about as mature as ... > > #plan9 provides a multilingual, almost 24 hour/day, support service > for free due to the efforts of its members. I have not posted my opinion of the IRC crowd. I merely posted some evidence that they were, one one particular occasion, completely full of shit. People can make their own decisions about whether to generalize. Tim Newsham: > Despite what Andrey said (most of which is true), IRC is still > the first place I'd recommend someone with a plan9 question > go ask. Depending on who is watching, they could get a good > answer, or perhaps just a snide 'RTFM.' When it works it > works well and when it doesn't, there's 9fans for a slightly > less timely response. I think reading the FAQ, poking around the Wiki, and then asking on 9fans is a much more reliable way to go. Poking around the IRC logs from the first week of May, I have learned that the /sys/src/9 kernels have no SCSI support (only /sys/src/fs does) and that there is no way for acme to pipe the current buffer through a program. Sometimes, when such misinformation is stated as fact, someone is around to correct it. But just as often it seems that no one is around to correct it. And if you're a newbie and you get the latter, I don't believe that you've done better than asking on 9fans and waiting a little while. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 15:19 ` Russ Cox @ 2005-05-24 16:39 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-24 16:43 ` William Josephson 2005-06-19 11:41 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-24 21:07 ` Chris Collins 1 sibling, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Vester Thacker @ 2005-05-24 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Russ Cox, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/25/05, Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote: > I have not posted my opinion of the IRC crowd. I merely posted some > evidence that they were, one one particular occasion, completely > full of shit. People can make their own decisions about whether > to generalize. Rationalize. One out of how many? We are not talking all or nothing. > I think reading the FAQ, poking around the Wiki, and then > asking on 9fans is a much more reliable way to go. Sure, but a lot of folks that we meet on IRC rush into Plan 9 and hit hurdles during the install/configuration process. Then they want answers, so they go to IRC for a quick remedy. We are the first response team for their answers. I do not believe that the folks volunteering to help on IRC are out to misguide people intentionally. Granted a few tend to be a little overzealous at times, but not always. I am not certain that telling the consumer that he/she should go to a mailing list for the quick answer is always the best solution. It seems that IRC will alleviate the problem sooner. Granted if the question is more technical, it should go to 9fans. I'll meet you half way and say that if one of our volunteers berates one of the newbies, I'll ban the offender from the #plan9 channel. I'll even go the extra mile to have them banned from freenode. We could go with a no tolerance approach, or a 3 strikes and your out approach. > Poking around the IRC logs from the first week of May, > I have learned that the /sys/src/9 kernels have no > SCSI support (only /sys/src/fs does) and that there is > no way for acme to pipe the current buffer through a > program. Sometimes, when such misinformation is stated > as fact, someone is around to correct it. But just as often > it seems that no one is around to correct it. And if you're > a newbie and you get the latter, I don't believe that you've > done better than asking on 9fans and waiting a little while. It's a fact of life that people make mistakes. If we hit an 85 percent accuracy rate then we are doing great. Most weather forecasters don't do that well. -vester ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 16:39 ` Vester Thacker @ 2005-05-24 16:43 ` William Josephson 2005-05-24 17:08 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-26 4:02 ` McLone 2005-06-19 11:41 ` Vester Thacker 1 sibling, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: William Josephson @ 2005-05-24 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 01:39:12AM +0900, Vester Thacker wrote: > It's a fact of life that people make mistakes. If we hit an > 85 percent accuracy rate then we are doing great. Most > weather forecasters don't do that well. The thing is, if one doesn't know the answer, one shouldn't make it up. It doesn't take complicated statistical models to figure out which kernels have SCSI and which don't. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 16:43 ` William Josephson @ 2005-05-24 17:08 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-26 4:02 ` McLone 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Vester Thacker @ 2005-05-24 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/25/05, William Josephson <jkw@eecs.harvard.edu> wrote: > On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 01:39:12AM +0900, Vester Thacker wrote: > > It's a fact of life that people make mistakes. If we hit an > > 85 percent accuracy rate then we are doing great. Most > > weather forecasters don't do that well. > > The thing is, if one doesn't know the answer, one > shouldn't make it up. It doesn't take complicated > statistical models to figure out which kernels have > SCSI and which don't. But the question really is then, is the service worth the risk? -vester ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 16:43 ` William Josephson 2005-05-24 17:08 ` Vester Thacker @ 2005-05-26 4:02 ` McLone 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: McLone @ 2005-05-26 4:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/24/05, William Josephson <jkw@eecs.harvard.edu> wrote: > It doesn't take complicated statistical models > to figure out which kernels have SCSI and which don't. c'mon, that was me asking IIRC, and knowing the fact that even 9load does some SCSI... _My_ brain-implanted noicefilter worked out perfectly on that one. -- wbr, |\ _,,,---,,_ dog bless ya! ` Zzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ McLone at GMail dot com |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' net- and *BSD admin '---''(_/--' `-'\_) ...sorry for translit ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 16:39 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-24 16:43 ` William Josephson @ 2005-06-19 11:41 ` Vester Thacker 2005-06-19 11:43 ` Vester Thacker 1 sibling, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Vester Thacker @ 2005-06-19 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Russ Cox, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/25/05, Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'll meet you half way and say that if one of our volunteers > berates one of the newbies, I'll ban the offender from the #plan9 > channel. I'll even go the extra mile to have them banned from > freenode. We could go with a no tolerance approach, or a 3 > strikes and your out approach. I'd like to retract this statement. I hope everyone is well. -vester ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-06-19 11:41 ` Vester Thacker @ 2005-06-19 11:43 ` Vester Thacker 0 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Vester Thacker @ 2005-06-19 11:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Russ Cox, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 6/19/05, Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote: > On 5/25/05, Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I'll meet you half way and say that if one of our volunteers > > berates one of the newbies, I'll ban the offender from the #plan9 > > channel. I'll even go the extra mile to have them banned from > > freenode. We could go with a no tolerance approach, or a 3 > > strikes and your out approach. > > I'd like to retract this statement. The above statement that is. -vester ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 15:19 ` Russ Cox 2005-05-24 16:39 ` Vester Thacker @ 2005-05-24 21:07 ` Chris Collins 2005-05-24 21:18 ` Russ Cox 2005-05-24 21:20 ` Dan Cross 1 sibling, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Chris Collins @ 2005-05-24 21:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Russ Cox, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Russ Cox was once rumoured to have said: > Tim Newsham: > > Despite what Andrey said (most of which is true), IRC is still > > the first place I'd recommend someone with a plan9 question > > go ask. Depending on who is watching, they could get a good > > answer, or perhaps just a snide 'RTFM.' When it works it > > works well and when it doesn't, there's 9fans for a slightly > > less timely response. > > I think reading the FAQ, poking around the Wiki, and then > asking on 9fans is a much more reliable way to go. > > Poking around the IRC logs from the first week of May, > I have learned that the /sys/src/9 kernels have no > SCSI support (only /sys/src/fs does) and that there is > no way for acme to pipe the current buffer through a > program. Sometimes, when such misinformation is stated > as fact, someone is around to correct it. But just as often > it seems that no one is around to correct it. And if you're > a newbie and you get the latter, I don't believe that you've > done better than asking on 9fans and waiting a little while. Of course, if you had actually bothered to hang around and listen, you would have had heard the prior case (SCSI support) corrected at the very least. (I was online to see that one myself). C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 21:07 ` Chris Collins @ 2005-05-24 21:18 ` Russ Cox 2005-05-25 16:42 ` David Leimbach 2005-05-24 21:20 ` Dan Cross 1 sibling, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2005-05-24 21:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/24/05, Chris Collins <xfire-9fans@xware.cx> wrote: > Russ Cox was once rumoured to have said: > > Tim Newsham: > > > Despite what Andrey said (most of which is true), IRC is still > > > the first place I'd recommend someone with a plan9 question > > > go ask. Depending on who is watching, they could get a good > > > answer, or perhaps just a snide 'RTFM.' When it works it > > > works well and when it doesn't, there's 9fans for a slightly > > > less timely response. > > > > I think reading the FAQ, poking around the Wiki, and then > > asking on 9fans is a much more reliable way to go. > > > > Poking around the IRC logs from the first week of May, > > I have learned that the /sys/src/9 kernels have no > > SCSI support (only /sys/src/fs does) and that there is > > no way for acme to pipe the current buffer through a > > program. Sometimes, when such misinformation is stated > > as fact, someone is around to correct it. But just as often > > it seems that no one is around to correct it. And if you're > > a newbie and you get the latter, I don't believe that you've > > done better than asking on 9fans and waiting a little while. > > Of course, if you had actually bothered to hang around and listen, you > would have had heard the prior case (SCSI support) corrected at the > very least. (I was online to see that one myself). Sometimes, when such misinformation is stated as fact, someone is around to correct it. But just as often it seems that no one is around to correct it. And if you're a newbie and you get the latter, I don't believe that you've done better than asking on 9fans and waiting a little while. The SCSI comment did get corrected, eventually, though the comment about acme not being able to pipe a buffer through an external program did not. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 21:18 ` Russ Cox @ 2005-05-25 16:42 ` David Leimbach 2005-05-25 16:58 ` Bruce Ellis 2005-05-26 9:17 ` Abhey Shah 0 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: David Leimbach @ 2005-05-25 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Russ Cox, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > The SCSI comment did get corrected, eventually, though > the comment about acme not being able to pipe a buffer > through an external program did not. > > Russ > Misinformation will continue to exist no matter what. People just get stuff wrong. They can even get it wrong here. I don't think removing IRC is going to solve that problem. IRC just allows you to be wrong faster :) Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-25 16:42 ` David Leimbach @ 2005-05-25 16:58 ` Bruce Ellis 2005-05-26 9:17 ` Abhey Shah 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2005-05-25 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Leimbach, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/26/05, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote: > IRC just allows you to be wrong faster :) > > Dave Or to be helpful quicker, as Skip's experiment demonstrated. #plan9: correct answer in a few minutes. 9fans: no answer so far (1 day). I don't know what this discussion is supposed to prove. Russ spends time tracking down two errors in #plan9. Sample space - large. Errors - 2. Turns out one was quickly corrected so even without grepping through 9fans we see one error in 9fans - quickly corrected. Perhaps it's time for technical discussion rather than talking about talking about plan9. Just my morning rant. brucee ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-25 16:42 ` David Leimbach 2005-05-25 16:58 ` Bruce Ellis @ 2005-05-26 9:17 ` Abhey Shah 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Abhey Shah @ 2005-05-26 9:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 774 bytes --] Apologies for larding up the list with flippant Simpsons' quotes but this one is appropriate for many situations. Homer: There are three ways to do things: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power way! Bart: Isn't that just the wrong way? Homer: Yeah, but faster! On 25 May 2005, at 17:42, David Leimbach wrote: >> The SCSI comment did get corrected, eventually, though >> the comment about acme not being able to pipe a buffer >> through an external program did not. >> >> Russ >> > > Misinformation will continue to exist no matter what. People just get > stuff wrong. They can even get it wrong here. I don't think removing > IRC is going to solve that problem. > > IRC just allows you to be wrong faster :) > > Dave > > [-- Attachment #2.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 282 bytes --] from postmaster@ethel: The following attachment had content that we can't prove to be harmless. To avoid possible automatic execution, we changed the content headers. The original header was: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII [-- Attachment #2.2: file.suspect --] [-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 862 bytes --] Apologies for larding up the list with flippant Simpsons' quotes but this one is appropriate for many situations. <fontfamily><param>Verdana</param> Homer: There are three ways to do things: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power way! Bart: Isn't that just the wrong way? Homer: Yeah, but faster! </fontfamily> On 25 May 2005, at 17:42, David Leimbach wrote: <excerpt><excerpt>The SCSI comment did get corrected, eventually, though the comment about acme not being able to pipe a buffer through an external program did not. Russ </excerpt> Misinformation will continue to exist no matter what. People just get stuff wrong. They can even get it wrong here. I don't think removing IRC is going to solve that problem. IRC just allows you to be wrong faster :) Dave </excerpt> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 21:07 ` Chris Collins 2005-05-24 21:18 ` Russ Cox @ 2005-05-24 21:20 ` Dan Cross 2005-05-24 21:31 ` Jack Johnson 2005-05-26 4:04 ` McLone 1 sibling, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2005-05-24 21:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 07:07:21AM +1000, Chris Collins wrote: > Of course, if you had actually bothered to hang around and listen, you > would have had heard the prior case (SCSI support) corrected at the > very least. (I was online to see that one myself). The thing is, there's a temporal quality to information in a medium like IRC that affects the total accumulation of data. Unlike a mailing list, where you can be relatively assured the subject will receive updates to incorrect information, IRC has no such guarantee. One might answer a question incorrectly, and the person who asked might say, ``great, thanks, bye!'' and immediately log off. Then, it doesn't matter if the correction gets made. Because the data isn't accumulated over time, the damage done by the bad data remains done. The correction is never applied. - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 21:20 ` Dan Cross @ 2005-05-24 21:31 ` Jack Johnson 2005-05-24 21:54 ` Devon H. O'Dell 2005-05-26 4:04 ` McLone 1 sibling, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Jack Johnson @ 2005-05-24 21:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/24/05, Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote: > Because the data isn't accumulated over time, the damage > done by the bad data remains done. The correction is never applied. So, this begs the question, do people using IRC understand this? If so, then the newbie swears, tries again with a new crowd, or tries 9fans and waits. If not, then they assume the software is broken or that it will not do what it asks and they give up. If I were really concerned about the quality of information on IRC, I would donate an hour a week to straightening out the locals or just roll an infobot that references the wiki and the mailing list archives and let the locals qualify the result with their own $0.02 (though possibly not USD). Otherwise, I would assume the visitors were looking for easy information and that they realize they might not walk away with answers. -Jack ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 21:31 ` Jack Johnson @ 2005-05-24 21:54 ` Devon H. O'Dell 0 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Devon H. O'Dell @ 2005-05-24 21:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jack Johnson, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Jack Johnson wrote: > On 5/24/05, Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote: > >>Because the data isn't accumulated over time, the damage >>done by the bad data remains done. The correction is never applied. > > > So, this begs the question, do people using IRC understand this? If > so, then the newbie swears, tries again with a new crowd, or tries > 9fans and waits. If not, then they assume the software is broken or > that it will not do what it asks and they give up. No, they do not. When I first started in there, I was given absolute hell and did not understand what everyone's problem was. I've come to appreciate that some of that attitude is qualified by being a Plan 9 user/developer/enthusiast as I have taken some of the mental stances myself. But I still notice that far too many people (potential developers included!) have been scared away by the overzealous ideals and twisted advocacy of some individuals. This has caused me to `indefinitely' leave the channel. At least until I noticed it getting better. During this time, I started #Plan-9, which was pretty successful at getting people who really wanted to talk about Plan 9 to do so in a kind fashion. It still exists, though the conversation has moved en masse back to #Plan9. Surprisingly, it did. I still notice some of the behaviors, but they are in general getting better. Unfortunately, I have not been around for the last set of quotes that sparked this thread. Normally, I check uriel on his statements. > If I were really concerned about the quality of information on IRC, I > would donate an hour a week to straightening out the locals or just > roll an infobot that references the wiki and the mailing list archives > and let the locals qualify the result with their own $0.02 (though > possibly not USD). There are a lot of great minds in #Plan9. Infrequently, I see Ron, Andrey and Russ. Other than that, there's usually Vester, Boyd, Steve Simon, Tim Newsham, Eric van Hensbergen and myself. I'm probably leaving lots of people out; this is simply to give people an idea. In general, the discussion is good when I'm discussing, simply because interesting development / usage issues are being discussed. I tend to leave when it gets too hairy. Which is why it's oddly good discussion when I'm there ;). (Don't mean to glorify myself one bit). > Otherwise, I would assume the visitors were looking for easy > information and that they realize they might not walk away with > answers. > > -Jack This is always something to watch out for on IRC, and unfortunately many IRC newbies do not understand this. I'd say it's generally a good place. But you have to know who to watch for. Generally that's straightforward, but it can get messy sometimes. In any case, I think this thread is somewhat moot. IRC is known for its crap; I think it just hits us hard because it's such a niche OS (at the moment, at least). The best thing to do (in my experience) is say `BS, <user>' and drop it. /ignore also works wonders for most clients. I might petition Freenode to make a ##Plan9 channel per its ridiculous `this is not an official project channel' guidelines, but it might help users who are new to Freenode (who have read the page / MOTD) to understand that it's not an official channel. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 21:20 ` Dan Cross 2005-05-24 21:31 ` Jack Johnson @ 2005-05-26 4:04 ` McLone 2005-05-26 4:19 ` Devon H. O'Dell 2005-05-26 4:29 ` Dan Cross 1 sibling, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: McLone @ 2005-05-26 4:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 5/25/05, Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote: > updates to incorrect information, IRC has no such guarantee. One might > answer a question incorrectly, and the person who asked might say, > ``great, thanks, bye!'' and immediately log off. /msg memoserv help -- wbr, |\ _,,,---,,_ dog bless ya! ` Zzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ McLone at GMail dot com |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' net- and *BSD admin '---''(_/--' `-'\_) ...sorry for translit ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-26 4:04 ` McLone @ 2005-05-26 4:19 ` Devon H. O'Dell 2005-05-26 4:29 ` Dan Cross 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Devon H. O'Dell @ 2005-05-26 4:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: McLone, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs McLone wrote: > On 5/25/05, Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote: > >>updates to incorrect information, IRC has no such guarantee. One might >>answer a question incorrectly, and the person who asked might say, >>``great, thanks, bye!'' and immediately log off. > > /msg memoserv help > Assumes user is registered with nickserv. --Devon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-26 4:04 ` McLone 2005-05-26 4:19 ` Devon H. O'Dell @ 2005-05-26 4:29 ` Dan Cross 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2005-05-26 4:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: McLone, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 07:04:24AM +0300, McLone wrote: > /msg memoserv help I have no idea what that does. Evidently, it sends a help request message to some sort of `bot' that can serve memos (that much is obvious); perhaps you're implying that you can use this as a way to implement a FAQ listing. Regardless, I don't see how it addresses my point: In the IRC model, if you get bad data, you have significantly less chance of getting a correction if you don't stick around and monitor future traffic to pick it out. If someone who doesn't know the answer isn't monitoring, you have no chance of getting a correction, unless people sit around and read IRC logs and go back and post corrections to questions asked in the past and unrelated to the current topic(s) of discussion in the channel (that's another thing about IRC: you don't get threading in the robust way you do with a mailing list or even, God Forbid, USENET Newsgroups). And then you're back to waiting around until someone who knows what they're talking about sees the request, which is the same situation you have with 9fans. Or somebody says, ``ask the bot....'' and you spend time figuring out how, but even then the bot may not be programmed with the answer to YOUR question. You might as well read the Wiki instead. - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 0:03 ` Eric Van Hensbergen 2005-05-24 0:12 ` andrey mirtchovski 2005-05-24 4:29 ` Tim Newsham @ 2005-05-24 4:46 ` Dan Cross 2005-05-24 5:29 ` Lucio De Re 2 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2005-05-24 4:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eric Van Hensbergen, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 07:03:07PM -0500, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote: > What's the solution then? Having a more interactive venue to > coordinate development activities is a really nice thing, particularly > with such a sparse group. For individuals folks have personality > conflicts with, /ignore is a wonderful thing. Of course that doesn't > help the newbies. Writefs on 9grid. - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-24 4:46 ` Dan Cross @ 2005-05-24 5:29 ` Lucio De Re 0 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2005-05-24 5:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Writefs on 9grid. With an ACME-only interface? I'll buy that! ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc 2005-05-23 23:33 ` Chris Collins 2005-05-23 23:57 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2005-05-24 0:14 ` Skip Tavakkolian 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2005-05-24 0:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Sure, you might not like the IRC crowd, but posting this to 9fans in > anger over a few members of #plan9 is about as mature as the US > walking into the Gulf because "members of al Qaida, an organization > bearing responsiblity for attacks on the United States, its citizens, > and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, > 2001, are known to be in Iraq"[1]. Participating in the #plan9 irc is like taking an evening stroll through the streets of Baghdad; you will occasionally get sniped at. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2005-06-19 11:43 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 35+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2005-05-23 11:27 [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc Russ Cox 2005-05-23 12:18 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-23 17:44 ` Bruce Ellis 2005-05-23 17:46 ` Rob Pike 2005-05-23 18:43 ` Tim Newsham 2005-05-24 4:41 ` Dan Cross 2005-05-23 12:22 ` Uriel 2005-05-23 15:55 ` jmk 2005-05-24 0:54 ` Country Joe 2005-05-23 23:33 ` Chris Collins 2005-05-23 23:57 ` andrey mirtchovski 2005-05-24 0:03 ` Eric Van Hensbergen 2005-05-24 0:12 ` andrey mirtchovski 2005-05-24 4:29 ` Tim Newsham 2005-05-24 15:19 ` Russ Cox 2005-05-24 16:39 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-24 16:43 ` William Josephson 2005-05-24 17:08 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-26 4:02 ` McLone 2005-06-19 11:41 ` Vester Thacker 2005-06-19 11:43 ` Vester Thacker 2005-05-24 21:07 ` Chris Collins 2005-05-24 21:18 ` Russ Cox 2005-05-25 16:42 ` David Leimbach 2005-05-25 16:58 ` Bruce Ellis 2005-05-26 9:17 ` Abhey Shah 2005-05-24 21:20 ` Dan Cross 2005-05-24 21:31 ` Jack Johnson 2005-05-24 21:54 ` Devon H. O'Dell 2005-05-26 4:04 ` McLone 2005-05-26 4:19 ` Devon H. O'Dell 2005-05-26 4:29 ` Dan Cross 2005-05-24 4:46 ` Dan Cross 2005-05-24 5:29 ` Lucio De Re 2005-05-24 0:14 ` Skip Tavakkolian
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