[9fans] fun quote

[9fans] fun quote

[erik quanstrom]

i don't know how ingo managed to put his
finger on so many reasons i enjoy plan 9
by counterexample.

Linux is a 18+ years old kernel, there's not that
many easy projects left in it anymore :-/ Core kernel
features that look basic and which are not in Linux
yet often turn out to be not that simple.
	-- Ingo Molnar

- erik

Re: [9fans] fun quote

[Jack Norton]

erik quanstrom wrote:
> i don't know how ingo managed to put his
> finger on so many reasons i enjoy plan 9
> by counterexample.
>
> Linux is a 18+ years old kernel, there's not that
> many easy projects left in it anymore :-/ Core kernel
> features that look basic and which are not in Linux
> yet often turn out to be not that simple.
> 	-- Ingo Molnar
>
> - erik
>
>
Now, Plan 9's kernel is pretty old too, isn't it?  If Plan9 had become a
bit more widely accepted, even as late as, let's say, 2002, do you think
it would have become an unruly and frighteningly complicated beast as
linux has?
What has saved other 'popular' kernels from this?  For instance, no body
ever complains about FreeBSD being a complex cluster f***, but it has
pretty wide adoption (even as a 'desktop').  What about OS X?  Has
Apple's arrogance and secrecy saved it from....  open source
development?  It seems like they release code only after they are damn
sure they've gotten all they can out of it.
So, is Linux the unwanted poster-child of open source development?  I
think an argument could be made.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] fun quote

[erik quanstrom]

> Now, Plan 9's kernel is pretty old too, isn't it?

that's the point.  age is a red herring.

> What has saved other 'popular' kernels from this?  For instance, no body
> ever complains about FreeBSD being a complex cluster, but it has
> pretty wide adoption (even as a 'desktop').  What about OS X?  Has
> Apple's arrogance and secrecy saved it from....  open source
> development?  It seems like they release code only after they are damn
> sure they've gotten all they can out of it.

so you're saying that osx is not complicated?

- erik

Re: [9fans] fun quote

[Jack Norton]

erik quanstrom wrote:
>> Now, Plan 9's kernel is pretty old too, isn't it?
>>
>
> that's the point.  age is a red herring.
>
>
>> What has saved other 'popular' kernels from this?  For instance, no body
>> ever complains about FreeBSD being a complex cluster, but it has
>> pretty wide adoption (even as a 'desktop').  What about OS X?  Has
>> Apple's arrogance and secrecy saved it from....  open source
>> development?  It seems like they release code only after they are damn
>> sure they've gotten all they can out of it.
>>
>
> so you're saying that osx is not complicated?
>
> - erik
>
>
No, no, it is, what I mean is that I haven't heard similar sentiments
towards the open source released by Apple.   Apple's  'open source'  is
software that is developed in a closed source fashion, then released as
open source when the time is right, as opposed to Linux and related
software, which are developed, almost from the ground up, as open
source.  This is the impression I get anyway.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] fun quote

[james toy]

==8<==
> No, no, it is, what I mean is that I haven't heard similar sentiments
> towards the open source released by Apple.   Apple's  'open source'  is
>  software that is developed in a closed source fashion, then released as
> open source when the time is right, as opposed to Linux and related
> software, which are developed, almost from the ground up, as open source.
>  This is the impression I get anyway.
==8<==

Yes and no; a lot of xnu is derived from FreeBSD.  There are certainly
caveats and areas where this is not true; however, I believe that
anyone can get their hands on the source code whilst in development
with a premier apple developer account.  In some ways I understand
this method or source control and in others I do not.  It seems geared
to a more "professional" crowd because I highly doubt many people are
willing to shell out _thousands_ of dollars to get their hands on
source code ~6-12 months in advance. It seems more a company would be
willing to have an ADC account to get the xnu source early because
they need to provide updates to drivers etc etc etc..

james francis toy iv

Re: [9fans] fun quote

[David Leimbach]

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On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Jack Norton <jack@0x6a.com> wrote:

> erik quanstrom wrote:
>
>> Now, Plan 9's kernel is pretty old too, isn't it?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> that's the point.  age is a red herring.
>>
>>
>>
>>> What has saved other 'popular' kernels from this?  For instance, no body
>>> ever complains about FreeBSD being a complex cluster, but it has pretty wide
>>> adoption (even as a 'desktop').  What about OS X?  Has Apple's arrogance and
>>> secrecy saved it from....  open source development?  It seems like they
>>> release code only after they are damn sure they've gotten all they can out
>>> of it.
>>>
>>
>> so you're saying that osx is not complicated?
>>
>> - erik
>>
>>
>>
> No, no, it is, what I mean is that I haven't heard similar sentiments
> towards the open source released by Apple.   Apple's  'open source'  is
>  software that is developed in a closed source fashion, then released as
> open source when the time is right, as opposed to Linux and related
> software, which are developed, almost from the ground up, as open source.
>  This is the impression I get anyway.
> -Jack
>
> As a former member of the OpenDarwin project, I can tell you your
impression of Apple's open source is pretty correct.  They like to share the
source, and people are allowed to port things they do to other platforms,
and submit patches and stuff gets into the mainline (like FreeBSD support
for libdispatch and such seems like it's going to).  Or you can just fork it
and make your own thing, but they're goal is probably the wider code review
that the community offers more so than sharing and being a nice open source
community member.
It is nice that they've started licensing some stuff under Apache instead of
some of their other licenses of the past, however I really feel Apple's open
source is more of a one-way street.

Dave

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Re: [9fans] fun quote

[David Leimbach]

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On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:52 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:

> > Now, Plan 9's kernel is pretty old too, isn't it?
>
> that's the point.  age is a red herring.
>
> > What has saved other 'popular' kernels from this?  For instance, no body
> > ever complains about FreeBSD being a complex cluster, but it has
> > pretty wide adoption (even as a 'desktop').  What about OS X?  Has
> > Apple's arrogance and secrecy saved it from....  open source
> > development?  It seems like they release code only after they are damn
> > sure they've gotten all they can out of it.
>
> so you're saying that osx is not complicated?
>

I think Mach makes me go cross-eyed.  It's not at all what it was meant to
be.  Wedging that stuff in with IOKit and BSD stuff makes me feel lost, and
yes I've hacked on XNU, the hybrid beast that it is, and run Mac OS X on my
own kernels.


>
> - erik
>
>

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Re: [9fans] fun quote

[matt]

look who's trolling now :)

>i don't know how ingo managed to put his
>finger on so many reasons i enjoy plan 9
>by counterexample.
>
>Linux is a 18+ years old kernel, there's not that
>many easy projects left in it anymore :-/ Core kernel
>features that look basic and which are not in Linux
>yet often turn out to be not that simple.
>	-- Ingo Molnar
>
>- erik
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] fun quote

[erik quanstrom]

On Thu Sep 17 12:28:18 EDT 2009, maht-9fans@maht0x0r.net wrote:
> look who's trolling now :)

if that's your opinion, then maybe you have
misunderstood my point.  perhaps i made it
poorly.

the plan 9 kernel often looks basic but is actually
quite sophisticated.  (this is even more true of
the fileserver kernel.)  it is also easy to understand
and modify.

it does not seem logical to assume that this point
is not widely a conviction that leads to action.

- erik