[9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[David Hendricks]

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Hello everyone,
   It's been nearly a quarter since our last BAP9UG meeting and I had such a
good time back in May that I would like to invite everyone back to Google's
Campus in Mountain View for another! We're currently thinking that the best
time would be in the evening during LinuxWorld so we can poach 9fans
visiting from out of town during the expo and bring them to Mountain View.

   I've scheduled the same room we had last time (More info below) for 6:00
to 10:00PM on Tuesday August 7. Please let me know if this conflicts with
anything. No need to RSVP (An e-mail would be nice though) and feel free to
bring friends, family, well-behaved dogs and interns, etc.

Directions/Room info:
Google Campus:
1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy
Mountain View, CA, 94043
Directions:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1600+Amphitheatre+Pkwy,+Mountain+View,+California+94043
The Segou conference room (Building 43, second floor, room #216) has been
reserved. Find the building 43 lobby and check in with the receptionist and
we'll have someone greet you and bring you to the room (Or just call my cell
phone, which will be on the poster). Also, we'll have video conferencing
available in case anyone wants to chat with us from a remote Google office
(Please let me know ASAP so we can make necessary arrangements).

   We'll look forward to seeing everyone again soon!

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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[David Leimbach]

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Did May's meeting get video posted anywhere?  I don't remember ever seeing
it go up, though I was distracted by life for a while there.


On 7/29/07, David Hendricks <david.hendricks@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>    It's been nearly a quarter since our last BAP9UG meeting and I had such
> a good time back in May that I would like to invite everyone back to
> Google's Campus in Mountain View for another! We're currently thinking that
> the best time would be in the evening during LinuxWorld so we can poach
> 9fans visiting from out of town during the expo and bring them to Mountain
> View.
>
>    I've scheduled the same room we had last time (More info below) for
> 6:00 to 10:00PM on Tuesday August 7. Please let me know if this conflicts
> with anything. No need to RSVP (An e-mail would be nice though) and feel
> free to bring friends, family, well-behaved dogs and interns, etc.
>
> Directions/Room info:
> Google Campus:
> 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy
> Mountain View, CA, 94043
> Directions: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1600
> +Amphitheatre+Pkwy,+Mountain+View,+California+94043
> The Segou conference room (Building 43, second floor, room #216) has been
> reserved. Find the building 43 lobby and check in with the receptionist and
> we'll have someone greet you and bring you to the room (Or just call my cell
> phone, which will be on the poster). Also, we'll have video conferencing
> available in case anyone wants to chat with us from a remote Google office
> (Please let me know ASAP so we can make necessary arrangements).
>
>    We'll look forward to seeing everyone again soon!
>



-- 
- Passage Matthew 5:37:
   But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more
than these cometh of evil.

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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Nick LaForge]

looking forward to it!

nick

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Gorka Guardiola]

On 7/29/07, David Hendricks <david.hendricks@gmail.com> wrote:
> bring friends, family, well-behaved dogs and interns, etc.

Well behaved dogs and interns... Hmm, as an intern I am not sure
I like the class of equivalence established here... Thanks I am
bad-behaved.
-- 
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[erik quanstrom]

> > bring friends, family, well-behaved dogs and interns, etc.

> Well behaved dogs and interns... Hmm, as an intern I am not sure
> I like the class of equivalence established here... Thanks I am
> bad-behaved.

there is no distributive property of adjectives over nouns except maybe
if the adjective preceedes the whole list.  like arithmetic, except the
results of the parser may depend on the conscience of the parser.

which is good if you are friends, family or an intern.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Gorka Guardiola]

On 7/31/07, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
> > > bring friends, family, well-behaved dogs and interns, etc.
>
> there is no distributive property of adjectives over nouns except maybe
> if the adjective preceedes the whole list.  like arithmetic, except the
> results of the parser may depend on the conscience of the parser.
>
> which is good if you are friends, family or an intern.
>

With the commas as they are, etc meaning "and other things" and having
and "and" where it is, this reads (I think in a standard parser):

bring
- friends,
- family,
- well-behaved dogs and interns,
- etc.

either grouping (well-behaved dogs) and interns or well-behaved (dogs
and interns)
in a rather ambiguous way. Can we bring bad-behaved interns?.

The "and" is redundant in the presence of the "et" in the "et cetera",
unambiguously meaning
that there is a grouping or class of equivalence being defined.
Though I am not a native english speaker though, so I might be wrong.

Back to the assembler...
-- 
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[erik quanstrom]

> either grouping (well-behaved dogs) and interns or well-behaved (dogs
> and interns)
> in a rather ambiguous way. Can we bring bad-behaved interns?.
> 
> The "and" is redundant in the presence of the "et" in the "et cetera",
> unambiguously meaning
> that there is a grouping or class of equivalence being defined.
> Though I am not a native english speaker though, so I might be wrong.
> 
> Back to the assembler...

you'll do better with a language that uses parens to good effect. ;-)

- erik

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Paul Lalonde]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

(think I (was gorka correct))

On 31-Jul-07, at 7:35 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

>> either grouping (well-behaved dogs) and interns or well-behaved (dogs
>> and interns)
>> in a rather ambiguous way. Can we bring bad-behaved interns?.
>>
>> The "and" is redundant in the presence of the "et" in the "et  
>> cetera",
>> unambiguously meaning
>> that there is a grouping or class of equivalence being defined.
>> Though I am not a native english speaker though, so I might be wrong.
>>
>> Back to the assembler...
>
> you'll do better with a language that uses parens to good effect. ;-)
>
> - erik

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Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFGsAAOpJeHo/Fbu1wRAmqeAKDTrNvTBhldc61P/2TxqHJxC6AYHACgul8F
dLiYnOTBYVxBYzJ5iRJSArM=
=3Ti5
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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> (think I (was gorka correct))

is "was" a predicate?

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Lucio De Re]

>> (think I (was gorka correct))
> 
> is "was" a predicate?

It was one.

++L

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Bruce Ellis]

when, what!?  am i still admitted?

brucee

(mastering the standby-flight)

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

has to be a function, AFAIK.


On 8/1/07, Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
> >> (think I (was gorka correct))
> >
> > is "was" a predicate?
>
> It was one.
>
> ++L
>
>

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[David Hendricks]

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I was an intern myself less than a year ago ;-) Can I look forward to seeing
you at the meeting?

On 7/31/07, Gorka Guardiola <paurea@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/29/07, David Hendricks <david.hendricks@gmail.com> wrote:
> > bring friends, family, well-behaved dogs and interns, etc.
>
> Well behaved dogs and interns... Hmm, as an intern I am not sure
> I like the class of equivalence established here... Thanks I am
> bad-behaved.
> --
> - curiosity sKilled the cat
>

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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Gorka Guardiola]

On 8/1/07, David Hendricks <david.hendricks@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was an intern myself less than a year ago ;-) Can I look forward to seeing
> you at the meeting?

I would *really* love to go, but I am in New Jersey for the summer,
maybe some other
time...

-- 
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[David Hendricks]

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Hello again everyone,
   Looks like we're all set for this evening. I have 8.5x11 posters up in
building 43 to help people find their way to the room ("Segou" room #216,
Bldg. 43, second floor). The lobby receptionist should be there until around
6:30 or 7:00 and can get a security guard to escort people. Or, if that
option is unavailable feel free to contact me via cell phone at
1-(505)-690-4648.

   Ron is going to be giving another demo of the new and improved THX. We
have a bootable  2GB image so we can make copies and use them during the
demo -- please bring a flash drive if you'd like to give it a shot. I'm
working on getting some loaner laptops that should work in case we run into
hardware issues, but no promises...

   That's it for now -- See you in a few hours!

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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Kim Shrier]

On Aug 7, 2007, at 3:37 PM, David Hendricks wrote:

> Hello again everyone,
>    Looks like we're all set for this evening. I have 8.5x11 posters  
> up in building 43 to help people find their way to the room  
> ("Segou" room #216, Bldg. 43, second floor). The lobby receptionist  
> should be there until around 6:30 or 7:00 and can get a security  
> guard to escort people. Or, if that option is unavailable feel free  
> to contact me via cell phone at 1-(505)-690-4648.
>
>    Ron is going to be giving another demo of the new and improved  
> THX. We have a bootable  2GB image so we can make copies and use  
> them during the demo -- please bring a flash drive if you'd like to  
> give it a shot. I'm working on getting some loaner laptops that  
> should work in case we run into hardware issues, but no promises...
>
>    That's it for now -- See you in a few hours!

I think this question was asked before.  Was the previous meeting  
recorded and made available somewhere on the web?

And for those of us for which attending is slightly impractical  
(about a 1300 mile commute in my case), will this meeting be recorded?

Kim

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[David Hendricks]

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The previous meeting was recorded... I sent it to be uploaded to the Google
Channel on Youtube but it doesn't look like it's made it there... I'll
follow up with those folks. This meeting won't be recorded, however I intend
to invite a couple folks back to give tech talks which will be recorded.
IMHO, recording the last meeting was kind of awkward anyway :-/

On 8/7/07, Kim Shrier <kim@tinker.com> wrote:
>
> On Aug 7, 2007, at 3:37 PM, David Hendricks wrote:
>
> > Hello again everyone,
> >    Looks like we're all set for this evening. I have 8.5x11 posters
> > up in building 43 to help people find their way to the room
> > ("Segou" room #216, Bldg. 43, second floor). The lobby receptionist
> > should be there until around 6:30 or 7:00 and can get a security
> > guard to escort people. Or, if that option is unavailable feel free
> > to contact me via cell phone at 1-(505)-690-4648.
> >
> >    Ron is going to be giving another demo of the new and improved
> > THX. We have a bootable  2GB image so we can make copies and use
> > them during the demo -- please bring a flash drive if you'd like to
> > give it a shot. I'm working on getting some loaner laptops that
> > should work in case we run into hardware issues, but no promises...
> >
> >    That's it for now -- See you in a few hours!
>
> I think this question was asked before.  Was the previous meeting
> recorded and made available somewhere on the web?
>
> And for those of us for which attending is slightly impractical
> (about a 1300 mile commute in my case), will this meeting be recorded?
>
> Kim
>

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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Tharaneedharan Vilwanathan]

Hi David,

In case Google security needs to know the person's name in advance, I
am planning to come for the session.

Thanks
dharani

On 8/7/07, David Hendricks <david.hendricks@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello again everyone,
>    Looks like we're all set for this evening. I have 8.5x11 posters up in
> building 43 to help people find their way to the room ("Segou" room #216,
> Bldg. 43, second floor). The lobby receptionist should be there until around
> 6:30 or 7:00 and can get a security guard to escort people. Or, if that
> option is unavailable feel free to contact me via cell phone at
> 1-(505)-690-4648.
>
>    Ron is going to be giving another demo of the new and improved THX. We
> have a bootable  2GB image so we can make copies and use them during the
> demo -- please bring a flash drive if you'd like to give it a shot. I'm
> working on getting some loaner laptops that should work in case we run into
> hardware issues, but no promises...
>
>    That's it for now -- See you in a few hours!
>

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Tharaneedharan Vilwanathan]

sorry, it was meant to be unicast.

dharani

On 8/7/07, Tharaneedharan Vilwanathan <vdharani@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> In case Google security needs to know the person's name in advance, I
> am planning to come for the session.
>
> Thanks
> dharani
>
> On 8/7/07, David Hendricks <david.hendricks@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello again everyone,
> >    Looks like we're all set for this evening. I have 8.5x11 posters up in
> > building 43 to help people find their way to the room ("Segou" room #216,
> > Bldg. 43, second floor). The lobby receptionist should be there until around
> > 6:30 or 7:00 and can get a security guard to escort people. Or, if that
> > option is unavailable feel free to contact me via cell phone at
> > 1-(505)-690-4648.
> >
> >    Ron is going to be giving another demo of the new and improved THX. We
> > have a bootable  2GB image so we can make copies and use them during the
> > demo -- please bring a flash drive if you'd like to give it a shot. I'm
> > working on getting some loaner laptops that should work in case we run into
> > hardware issues, but no promises...
> >
> >    That's it for now -- See you in a few hours!
> >
>

[9fans] Re: Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[David Hendricks]

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Lobby is closed... if you're reading this and waiting outside in Mountain
View, call my cell phone ( 505-690-4648 ) so I can get you in.

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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[David Leimbach]

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Oh ok!  I was just interested to see it.

On 8/7/07, David Hendricks <dhendrix@google.com> wrote:
>
> The previous meeting was recorded... I sent it to be uploaded to the
> Google Channel on Youtube but it doesn't look like it's made it there...
> I'll follow up with those folks. This meeting won't be recorded, however I
> intend to invite a couple folks back to give tech talks which will be
> recorded. IMHO, recording the last meeting was kind of awkward anyway :-/
>
> On 8/7/07, Kim Shrier <kim@tinker.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Aug 7, 2007, at 3:37 PM, David Hendricks wrote:
> >
> > > Hello again everyone,
> > >    Looks like we're all set for this evening. I have 8.5x11 posters
> > > up in building 43 to help people find their way to the room
> > > ("Segou" room #216, Bldg. 43, second floor). The lobby receptionist
> > > should be there until around 6:30 or 7:00 and can get a security
> > > guard to escort people. Or, if that option is unavailable feel free
> > > to contact me via cell phone at 1-(505)-690-4648.
> > >
> > >    Ron is going to be giving another demo of the new and improved
> > > THX. We have a bootable  2GB image so we can make copies and use
> > > them during the demo -- please bring a flash drive if you'd like to
> > > give it a shot. I'm working on getting some loaner laptops that
> > > should work in case we run into hardware issues, but no promises...
> > >
> > >    That's it for now -- See you in a few hours!
> >
> > I think this question was asked before.  Was the previous meeting
> > recorded and made available somewhere on the web?
> >
> > And for those of us for which attending is slightly impractical
> > (about a 1300 mile commute in my case), will this meeting be recorded?
> >
> > Kim
> >
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Bruce Ellis]

i must be the only one still awake.  good to see some familiar
faces and experience unusual teleconferencing.

you had to be there.

i'll throw the 9ee stuff out, it's small - the host is up to you,
i'm taking on the beast.

brucee

On 8/8/07, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh ok!  I was just interested to see it.
>
>
> On 8/7/07, David Hendricks <dhendrix@google.com> wrote:
> > The previous meeting was recorded... I sent it to be uploaded to the
> Google Channel on Youtube but it doesn't look like it's made it there...
> I'll follow up with those folks. This meeting won't be recorded, however I
> intend to invite a couple folks back to give tech talks which will be
> recorded. IMHO, recording the last meeting was kind of awkward anyway :-/
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/7/07, Kim Shrier < kim@tinker.com> wrote:
> > > On Aug 7, 2007, at 3:37 PM, David Hendricks wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello again everyone,
> > > >    Looks like we're all set for this evening. I have 8.5x11 posters
> > > > up in building 43 to help people find their way to the room
> > > > ("Segou" room #216, Bldg. 43, second floor). The lobby receptionist
> > > > should be there until around 6:30 or 7:00 and can get a security
> > > > guard to escort people. Or, if that option is unavailable feel free
> > > > to contact me via cell phone at 1-(505)-690-4648.
> > > >
> > > >    Ron is going to be giving another demo of the new and improved
> > > > THX. We have a bootable  2GB image so we can make copies and use
> > > > them during the demo -- please bring a flash drive if you'd like to
> > > > give it a shot. I'm working on getting some loaner laptops that
> > > > should work in case we run into hardware issues, but no promises...
> > > >
> > > >    That's it for now -- See you in a few hours!
> > >
> > > I think this question was asked before.  Was the previous meeting
> > > recorded and made available somewhere on the web?
> > >
> > > And for those of us for which attending is slightly impractical
> > > (about a 1300 mile commute in my case), will this meeting be recorded?
> > >
> > > Kim
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[ron minnich]

A good time was had by a few. We didn't leave until 11 pm! I showed
the lguest demo and the way that a single tcp connection had of
locking up. David Presotto spent a good hour helping us debug it and
we're pretty sure we know what's up. I continued my winning streak of
"demos that break" -- well, consistency is good I guess.  It's an
interesting problem and the debugging of it was fun, we even got to
use the google whiteboard at one point. David said he enjoyed
debugging his own TCP stack for a change. The lguest fix should be up
soon for you all to try. I'll announce it here.

Brucee talked about his 9ee stuff, which will allow you to run plan 9
apps native under different OSes. He'll have to explain to us how this
differs from p9p, because I don't think I totally got it all. It
essentially (I hope I get this right) wraps plan 9 libc calls around
native calls, and no other code changes. Did I get that close, Brucee?
It currently works on WIndows, although namespace support is not
totally there.

Thanks to David Hendriks and Google for hosting this. Both meetings
have been a real treat for me and I hope the others who attended.

I am thinking for the next meeting we could have an Omero theme.
People could bring their Omero setups and we could compare notes. It
would be interesting to see how it all works. Maybe nemo could fly
over from Spain :-)

On a more controversial note, we had a good discussion on scaling
limitations of the current system call interface and how a new type of
asynchrony might be introduced. One idea was that one could build on
the current rendezvous interface so that it could accept a closure (or
context). Then the user process would fire up a bunch of threads, most
of which would hang out in the rendezvous. For non-blocking I/O, a
process would kick off the system call, but the system call would
return immediately after queueing up the I/O and the actual return
would wake up one of the threads waiting in the rendezvous. This was
just one idea, but it's interesting. The bigger question, for me,
remains: how would we extend the system call interface to handle,
e.g., 100,000 connections to "something(s)" without losing the essence
of Plan 9? This question is not academic -- the BG/P machines are
planned to have 256K CPUs, and we plan to run on them. We could just
claim that firing up  an ioproc for each file descriptor would work,
but I've never been comfortable with that model -- for one thing, I
can tell you from experience that seeing even 20,000 procs in a ps is
fairly confusing. We could punt and just say "9p everything", but as
David pointed out, that leaves us with a fairly chaotic universe -- we
lose a lot of the ordering and such that the kernel gives us now via
the basic open/read/write/close interface.

Linux handles asynchrony now with select/poll/epoll/etc. etc. . And,
like it or not, it has demonstrated an ability to handle it well -- at
least one some worlds. Plan 9 as currently designed is fine for the
10-100 machine case; what would we do for the 10,000-1,000,000 case?

I'm tossing this little grenade out in the hopes of provoking a
discussion. References to past work would be interesting to hear.

thanks

ron

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Charles Forsyth]

asynchrony => a process.
this Erlang and (to a lesser degree, in terms of its scaling) Inferno get right.

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Kris Maglione]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 10:13:41AM -0700, ron minnich wrote:
>On a more controversial note, we had a good discussion on scaling
>limitations of the current system call interface and how a new type of
>asynchrony might be introduced. One idea was that one could build on
>the current rendezvous interface so that it could accept a closure (or
>context). Then the user process would fire up a bunch of threads, most
>of which would hang out in the rendezvous. For non-blocking I/O, a
>process would kick off the system call, but the system call would
>return immediately after queueing up the I/O and the actual return
>would wake up one of the threads waiting in the rendezvous. This was
>just one idea, but it's interesting. The bigger question, for me,
>remains: how would we extend the system call interface to handle,
>e.g., 100,000 connections to "something(s)" without losing the essence
>of Plan 9? This question is not academic -- the BG/P machines are
>planned to have 256K CPUs, and we plan to run on them. We could just
>claim that firing up  an ioproc for each file descriptor would work,
>but I've never been comfortable with that model -- for one thing, I
>can tell you from experience that seeing even 20,000 procs in a ps is
>fairly confusing. We could punt and just say "9p everything", but as
>David pointed out, that leaves us with a fairly chaotic universe -- we
>lose a lot of the ordering and such that the kernel gives us now via
>the basic open/read/write/close interface.

A student, advised by Russ, wrote a paper on async IO on Plan 9 
without kernel modifications. The basic idea, as I understand 
it, is to use the inherent asynchrony of 9P, and access files 
via the kernel's exportfs interface. The concept could easily be 
wrapped into a simple userspace aio lib. I prefer the idea to 
modifying the kernel, but I'm not sure that the overhead would 
be acceptable to all applications.

-- 
Kris Maglione

The severity of an itch is inversely proportional
to the reach.

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[David Leimbach]

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On 8/8/07, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
>
> asynchrony => a process.
> this Erlang and (to a lesser degree, in terms of its scaling) Inferno get
> right.
>
>
Erlang really is quite good at this.  Does it just boil down to the way in
which processes are implemented?

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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[ron minnich]

On 8/8/07, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> A good time was had by a few. We didn't leave until 11 pm! I showed
> the lguest demo and the way that a single tcp connection had of
> locking up. David Presotto spent a good hour helping us debug it and
> we're pretty sure we know what's up. I continued my winning streak of
> "demos that break" -- well, consistency is good I guess.  It's an
> interesting problem and the debugging of it was fun, we even got to
> use the google whiteboard at one point. David said he enjoyed
> debugging his own TCP stack for a change. The lguest fix should be up
> soon for you all to try. I'll announce it here.

The fix is in and I will try to put the new image up on sources today.
It was quick and easy, once I understood what lguest was actually
doing. The actual result was a much cleaned up ethernet driver for
lguest.

ron

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[David Hendricks]

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On 8/7/07, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Oh ok!  I was just interested to see it.


You're in luck--Andrey has a full quality version here:
http://mirtchovski.com/plan9/2007_05_10_Plan9UsersGroupMeeting.mp4

(And yes, some parts *had* to be edited out -- Sorry!)

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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Kris Maglione]

I obviously intended to post the link to the paper:
http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/plan9:jmhickey-meng.ps

-- 
Kris Maglione

A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[David Leimbach]

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On 8/8/07, David Hendricks <dhendrix@google.com> wrote:
>
> On 8/7/07, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Oh ok!  I was just interested to see it.
>
>
> You're in luck--Andrey has a full quality version here:
> http://mirtchovski.com/plan9/2007_05_10_Plan9UsersGroupMeeting.mp4
>
> (And yes, some parts *had* to be edited out -- Sorry!)
>
That's still great!

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Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Charles Forsyth]

> (And yes, some parts *had* to be edited out -- Sorry!)

why was that?
tedium? or secret society things?

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Charles Forsyth]

> The fix is in and I will try to put the new image up on sources today.

what was the bug?

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[ron minnich]

On 8/8/07, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> > The fix is in and I will try to put the new image up on sources today.
>
> what was the bug?
>
>
lguest will send you a packet even if you are in the interrupt handler
handling the packet it just gave you. Your packet gets over-written.
Fix is to give it lots of dma segments so that you can stay ahead of
the traffic.

ron

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[ron minnich]

On 8/8/07, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> > (And yes, some parts *had* to be edited out -- Sorry!)
>
> why was that?
> tedium? or secret society things?

Tedium. Really, really tedious watching me try to get X11 up so we can see xen.

It was about as fun as watching paint dry.

ron

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Charles Forsyth]

> Fix is to give it lots of dma segments so that you can stay ahead of
> the traffic.

but is that then guaranteed, or just a matter of luck?

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[ron minnich]

On 8/8/07, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> > Fix is to give it lots of dma segments so that you can stay ahead of
> > the traffic.
>
> but is that then guaranteed, or just a matter of luck?


That's a great question. I believe it is a matter of luck. But if you
get the interrupt, and you put the new pointers in the dma struct
"quickly", and it has not wrapped around, well, you're in luck!

ron
p.s. Actually, it does not matter, lguest is going to replace its I/O
with the paravirt IO standard ops in the next release.

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Eric Van Hensbergen]

On 8/8/07, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/8/07, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> > > Fix is to give it lots of dma segments so that you can stay ahead of
> > > the traffic.
> >
> > but is that then guaranteed, or just a matter of luck?
>
>
> That's a great question. I believe it is a matter of luck. But if you
> get the interrupt, and you put the new pointers in the dma struct
> "quickly", and it has not wrapped around, well, you're in luck!
>
> ron
> p.s. Actually, it does not matter, lguest is going to replace its I/O
> with the paravirt IO standard ops in the next release.
>

That really doesn't seem right, I looked more at the block and the
console code, but it seems like there should be code which "claims"
posted DMA buffers and then the guest should have to re-post them.

I have three different designs for the 9p transport on lguest.  I
think I shall do them all just so I can add a "choose your own
adventure" style to Rusty's documentation.
   a) follow the console driver style and just shuffle to named/pipe
socket to 9p server
   b) follow the libos style and just use a shared memory buffer
posted in dev->mem that is mmaped from shared memory with the server
   c) use dev->mem to store fcall slots and use the dma buffers to
shuffle payload -- this should be the optimal zero-copy case

(a) can theoretically target any 9p server, (b) will work against
inferno-tx and (c) will work against a modified spfs and will take
some pretty heavy modifications to v9fs (don't need to marshall the
fcall, just stick it in a struct in shared memory).  The idea is to
compare the performance of the three approaches and see just how much
cost (performance and complexity) is involved in each.  Should have
(a) done in a matter of hours.

                -eric

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[ron minnich]

On 8/8/07, Eric Van Hensbergen <ericvh@gmail.com> wrote:

> That really doesn't seem right, I looked more at the block and the
> console code, but it seems like there should be code which "claims"
> posted DMA buffers and then the guest should have to re-post them.

That's how I would have designed it, and how I expected it to work,
but it doesn't work that way. Once you do a bind for a dma descriptor,
that's it -- and the enet code will happily overwrite that buffer. You
have to move fast and have a few of them. See the handle_tun_input in
lguest.c

>    a) follow the console driver style and just shuffle to named/pipe
> socket to 9p server
>    b) follow the libos style and just use a shared memory buffer
> posted in dev->mem that is mmaped from shared memory with the server
>    c) use dev->mem to store fcall slots and use the dma buffers to
> shuffle payload -- this should be the optimal zero-copy case
>
> (a) can theoretically target any 9p server, (b) will work against
> inferno-tx and (c) will work against a modified spfs and will take
> some pretty heavy modifications to v9fs (don't need to marshall the
> fcall, just stick it in a struct in shared memory).  The idea is to
> compare the performance of the three approaches and see just how much
> cost (performance and complexity) is involved in each.  Should have
> (a) done in a matter of hours.

When (a) is done let me know :-)

ron

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Roman Shaposhnick]

Well I couldn't make it this time, but I hope you had lots of Fun.

Now, I remember a couple of guys taking group pictures at the previous
BAP9UG meeting. Are these available? Can you please send me either
an URL or just a bunch of attachments?

Thanks,
Roman.

On Sun, 2007-07-29 at 16:02 -0700, David Hendricks wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>    It's been nearly a quarter since our last BAP9UG meeting and I had
> such a good time back in May that I would like to invite everyone back
> to Google's Campus in Mountain View for another! We're currently
> thinking that the best time would be in the evening during LinuxWorld
> so we can poach 9fans visiting from out of town during the expo and
> bring them to Mountain View. 
> 
>    I've scheduled the same room we had last time (More info below) for
> 6:00 to 10:00PM on Tuesday August 7. Please let me know if this
> conflicts with anything. No need to RSVP (An e-mail would be nice
> though) and feel free to bring friends, family, well-behaved dogs and
> interns, etc. 
> 
> Directions/Room info: 
> Google Campus: 
> 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy
> Mountain View, CA, 94043
> Directions: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1600
> +Amphitheatre+Pkwy,+Mountain+View,+California+94043
> The Segou conference room (Building 43, second floor, room #216) has
> been reserved. Find the building 43 lobby and check in with the
> receptionist and we'll have someone greet you and bring you to the
> room (Or just call my cell phone, which will be on the poster). Also,
> we'll have video conferencing available in case anyone wants to chat
> with us from a remote Google office (Please let me know ASAP so we can
> make necessary arrangements). 
> 
>    We'll look forward to seeing everyone again soon!

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Bruce Ellis]

no silly pictures of the guys in sydney?  oh well.
we are all doing the 13km run tomorrow, but some
of us are cheating.

brucee

On 8/11/07, Tharaneedharan Vilwanathan <vdharani@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Sorry for the delay!
>
> Attached please find the photos. I couldn't figure out how to transfer
> the photos from my mobile. I just configured bluetooth and got them
> transferred.
>
> For the recent meeting, I did bring a digital camera but didnt get a
> chance to take photos. May be, next time.
>
> Thanks
> dharani
>
> On 8/10/07, Roman Shaposhnick <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
> > Well I couldn't make it this time, but I hope you had lots of Fun.
> >
> > Now, I remember a couple of guys taking group pictures at the previous
> > BAP9UG meeting. Are these available? Can you please send me either
> > an URL or just a bunch of attachments?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
> >
> > On Sun, 2007-07-29 at 16:02 -0700, David Hendricks wrote:
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >    It's been nearly a quarter since our last BAP9UG meeting and I had
> > > such a good time back in May that I would like to invite everyone back
> > > to Google's Campus in Mountain View for another! We're currently
> > > thinking that the best time would be in the evening during LinuxWorld
> > > so we can poach 9fans visiting from out of town during the expo and
> > > bring them to Mountain View.
> > >
> > >    I've scheduled the same room we had last time (More info below) for
> > > 6:00 to 10:00PM on Tuesday August 7. Please let me know if this
> > > conflicts with anything. No need to RSVP (An e-mail would be nice
> > > though) and feel free to bring friends, family, well-behaved dogs and
> > > interns, etc.
> > >
> > > Directions/Room info:
> > > Google Campus:
> > > 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy
> > > Mountain View, CA, 94043
> > > Directions: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1600
> > > +Amphitheatre+Pkwy,+Mountain+View,+California+94043
> > > The Segou conference room (Building 43, second floor, room #216) has
> > > been reserved. Find the building 43 lobby and check in with the
> > > receptionist and we'll have someone greet you and bring you to the
> > > room (Or just call my cell phone, which will be on the poster). Also,
> > > we'll have video conferencing available in case anyone wants to chat
> > > with us from a remote Google office (Please let me know ASAP so we can
> > > make necessary arrangements).
> > >
> > >    We'll look forward to seeing everyone again soon!
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [9fans] Bay Area Plan 9 Users Group Meeting (August '07)

[Anthony Sorace]

Thanks for the pictures, Dharani.

Can you or someone put names to the faces?