recent smiley.el changes

recent smiley.el changes

[Wes Hardaker]

So, recent changes to the gnus cvs directory replaced the smiley.el
file I originally wrote (and billions of people hacked afterwords)
with a new one that is a "re-written, simplified version" of the
original.  All fine and dandy except that the simplification means
loss of functionality (the ability to toggle the smileys via a menu,
pop-up help text, etc).

So, are these old features planning on being re-introduced?

(I won't get into why someone thought a rewrite was easier than
sending me a form and asking "hey, we finally need this filled out to
get it distributed with the main emacs base".  I just want the
functionality back.)
-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

Re: recent smiley.el changes

[Steve Youngs]

|--==> "WH" == Wes Hardaker <wes@hardakers.net> writes:

  WH> So, recent changes to the gnus cvs directory replaced the smiley.el
  WH> file I originally wrote (and billions of people hacked afterwords)
  WH> with a new one that is a "re-written, simplified version" of the
  WH> original.  All fine and dandy except that the simplification means
  WH> loss of functionality (the ability to toggle the smileys via a menu,
  WH> pop-up help text, etc).

I don't know about other XEmacs users, but I'm only seeing about 20%
of the smilies that I used to with the old (Wes') smiley.el.  And the
ones that I do see are square, gray, and ugly as sin. :-(

  WH> So, are these old features planning on being re-introduced?

I'm hoping that they'll just revert back to the old smiley.el, which
is exactly what I have asked Lars to do.  So far, no response (he must
be too busy).

  WH> (I won't get into why someone thought a rewrite was easier than

Lars seemed to think that there was a bug, which he didn't elaborate
on, because he couldn't see smilies in XEmacs.  I said that I had no
problems and that smiley.el worked great for XEmacs.  Unfortunately,
my comments seem to have been overlooked.

-- 
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: 10D5C9C5>---|
|            XEmacs - It's not just an editor.             |
|                    It's a way of life.                   |
|------------------------------------<youngs@xemacs.org>---|

Re: recent smiley.el changes

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:48:18 +1000, Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> said:

WH> (I won't get into why someone thought a rewrite was easier than

SY> Lars seemed to think that there was a bug, which he didn't
SY> elaborate on, because he couldn't see smilies in XEmacs.

I actually figured it was because it didn't work under Emacs.  I have
no idea about the current state of Emacs, images,
neat-but-otherwise-not-need-graphic-features-like-tooltips, etc.  I'm
still under the (most likely wrong impression) that they still can't
do images and the code wasn't used there.  However, I'm pretty sure
that hasn't been true for at least a year ;-)

If only the API for doing images, etc, was the same, as I seem to
remember they're different.
-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

Re: recent smiley.el changes

[Han Pilmeyer]

>>>>> "WH" == Wes Hardaker <wes@hardakers.net> writes:

>>>>> On Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:48:18 +1000, Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> said:
WH> (I won't get into why someone thought a rewrite was easier than

SY> Lars seemed to think that there was a bug, which he didn't
SY> elaborate on, because he couldn't see smilies in XEmacs.

Have we all given up on getting the old functionality back?

Is there a work around? I just want my smilies back!

Cheers.
-- 
-- Han Pilmeyer, email: han@uto.dec.com                                      --
--	       Compaq - UNIX Support Engineering Group                       --
--         Answers are the easy part, questions raise the doubt   - JB       --
-- All opinions are those of the author, not of Compaq Computer Corporation! --

Re: recent smiley.el changes

[Steve Youngs]

|--==> "HP" == Han Pilmeyer <han@zk3.dec.com> writes:

  >>>>>>On Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:48:18 +1000, Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> said:
  SY> Lars seemed to think that there was a bug, which he didn't
  SY> elaborate on, because he couldn't see smilies in XEmacs.

  HP> Have we all given up on getting the old functionality back?

No.  But I'm relieved that I'm not the only one who thinks the current
smiley set up is screwed.

Lars (or anyone with CVS access), please put Wes' original 'smiley.el'
back and rename the current 'smiley.el' back to 'smiley-ems.el'.

  HP> Is there a work around? I just want my smilies back!

I kept a copy of Wes' 'smiley.el' and just dump that into the lisp
directory before I build Gnus.

Han, if you don't have a copy of the working 'smiley.el' let me know
and I'll send it to you.

-- 
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: 10D5C9C5>---|
|            XEmacs - It's not just an editor.             |
|                    It's a way of life.                   |
|------------------------------------<youngs@xemacs.org>---|

Re: recent smiley.el changes

[Han Pilmeyer]

>>>>> "SY" == Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> writes:
SY> Lars (or anyone with CVS access), please put Wes' original 'smiley.el'
SY> back and rename the current 'smiley.el' back to 'smiley-ems.el'.

The documentation still describes Wes' smiley.el. But instead of
updating that, I too am hoping that someone will put the original
smiley.el back.

SY> I kept a copy of Wes' 'smiley.el' and just dump that into the lisp
SY> directory before I build Gnus.

Yes, that's what I'm doing too.

-- 
-- Han Pilmeyer, email: han@uto.dec.com                                      --
--	       Compaq - UNIX Support Engineering Group                       --
--         Answers are the easy part, questions raise the doubt   - JB       --
-- All opinions are those of the author, not of Compaq Computer Corporation! --

Re: recent smiley.el changes

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:30:56 +0100, Han Pilmeyer <han@zk3.dec.com> said:

SY> I kept a copy of Wes' 'smiley.el' and just dump that into the lisp
SY> directory before I build Gnus.

Han> Yes, that's what I'm doing too.

I *think* (having not tested it) you should be able to run "cvs -r 6.9
smiley.el" which will update the file to the 6.9 version (the last
version before the change) and then not update it further in the
future.  By just copying it in you'll get cvs conflicts anytime you do
a regular update.  By marking it as "I want that version" you won't.

-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

Re: recent smiley.el changes

[Dave Love]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1579 bytes --]

Wes Hardaker <wes@hardakers.net> writes:

> So, recent changes to the gnus cvs directory replaced the smiley.el
> file I originally wrote (and billions of people hacked afterwords)
> with a new one that is a "re-written, simplified version" of the
> original.

That sounds like commentary from my smiley-ems.el (for Emacs 21).

> All fine and dandy except that the simplification means
> loss of functionality (the ability to toggle the smileys via a menu,
> pop-up help text, etc).

I provided toggling and help-echo support.

> (I won't get into why someone thought a rewrite was easier than
> sending me a form and asking "hey, we finally need this filled out to
> get it distributed with the main emacs base".

The commentary mentions assignment problems about which I sent mail,
though I don't remember the response(s).  At least, as above, it was
hacked on by others and the image provenance was unclear.  Apart from
assignment issues, the code in smiley.el basically wasn't useful for
Emacs.  Writing smiley-ems as a simple demo/test for Emacs 21 was
clearly more efficient than doing essentially the same amount of
programming plus chasing paperwork.

Note in this connexion that writing common image code is messy since
XEmacs maintainers didn't cooperate on a common API and the XEmacs API
is poorly documented.  Also the change recording in XEmacs and Gnus
has often made it difficult or impossible to figure out the copyright
status of code.  [I hope code isn't still being installed in Gnus
without assignments.]

Ob-useful ☺:


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/x-patch, Size: 4841 bytes --]

2002-01-11  Dave Love  <fx@gnu.org>

	* smiley-ems.el (smiley-regexp-alist): Add Unicode strings.
	(smiley-update-cache): Allow strings as well as images.
	(smiley-region, gnus-smiley-display): Doc fix.
	(smiley-region): Update to allow string display.

Index: smiley-ems.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvs/emacs/lisp/gnus/smiley-ems.el,v
retrieving revision 1.9
diff -u -p -r1.9 smiley-ems.el
--- smiley-ems.el	13 Dec 2000 02:07:43 -0000	1.9
+++ smiley-ems.el	11 Jan 2002 18:05:25 -0000
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
-;;; smiley-ems.el --- displaying smiley faces
+;;; smiley-ems.el --- displaying smiley faces -*- coding: iso-2022-7bit -*-
 
-;; Copyright (C) 2000 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+;; Copyright (C) 2000, 2001 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
 
 ;; Author: Dave Love <fx@gnu.org>
 ;; Keywords: news mail multimedia
@@ -51,17 +51,28 @@ This is in addition to the normal image 
 
 ;; The XEmacs version has a baroque, if not rococo, set of these.
 (defcustom smiley-regexp-alist
-  ;; Perhaps :-) should be distinct -- it does appear in the Jargon File.
-  '(("\\([:;]-?)\\)\\(\\W\\|\\'\\)" 1 "smile.pbm")
-    ("\\(:-[/\\]\\)\\(\\W\\|\\'\\)" 1 "wry.pbm")
-    ("\\(:-[({]\\)\\(\\W\\|\\'\\)" 1 "frown.pbm"))
+;; Perhaps :-) should be distinct -- it does appear in the Jargon File.
+  (if (latin1-char-displayable-p ?\^[$,2#:^[(B)
+      '(("\\([:;]-?)\\)\\(\\W\\|\\'\\)" 1 ((margin nil) "^[$,2#:^[(B"))
+	("\\(:-[/\\]\\)\\(\\W\\|\\'\\)" 1 ((margin nil) "^[$,2#;^[(B"))
+	("\\(:-[({]\\)\\(\\W\\|\\'\\)" 1 ((margin nil) "^[$,2#9^[(B")))
+    '(("\\([:;]-?)\\)\\(\\W\\|\\'\\)" 1 "smile.pbm")
+      ("\\(:-[/\\]\\)\\(\\W\\|\\'\\)" 1 "wry.pbm")
+      ("\\(:-[({]\\)\\(\\W\\|\\'\\)" 1 "frown.pbm")))
   "*A list of regexps to map smilies to images.
 The elements are (REGEXP MATCH FILE), where MATCH is the submatch in
 rgexp to replace with IMAGE.  IMAGE is the name of a PBM file in
 `smiley-data-directory' or the normal image search path."
   :type '(repeat (list regexp
 		       (integer :tag "Regexp match number")
-		       (string :tag "Image name")))
+		       (choice (string :tag "Image name")
+			       (const :tag "Smiling face character"
+				      ((margin nil) "^[$,2#:^[(B"))
+			       (const :tag "Frowning face character"
+				      ((margin nil) "^[$,2#9^[(B"))
+			       (const :tag "Black smiling face character"
+				      ((margin nil) "^[$,2#;^[(B"))
+			       (sexp :tag "General display property"))))
   :set (lambda (symbol value)
 	 (set-default symbol value)
 	 (smiley-update-cache))
@@ -73,11 +84,13 @@ rgexp to replace with IMAGE.  IMAGE is t
 (defun smiley-update-cache ()
   (dolist (elt smiley-regexp-alist)
     (let* ((data-directory smiley-data-directory)
-	   (image (find-image (list (list :type 'pbm
-					  :file (nth 2 elt)
-					  :ascent 'center)))))
-      (if image
-	  (push (list (car elt) (cadr elt) image)
+	   (display (if (stringp (nth 2 elt))
+			(find-image (list (list :type 'pbm
+						:file (nth 2 elt)
+						:ascent 'center)))
+		      (nth 2 elt))))
+      (if display
+	  (push (list (car elt) (cadr elt) display)
 		smiley-cached-regexp-alist)))))
 
 (defvar smiley-active nil
@@ -93,7 +106,7 @@ rgexp to replace with IMAGE.  IMAGE is t
 
 ;;;###autoload
 (defun smiley-region (start end)
-  "Display textual smileys as images.
+  "Display textual smileys as images or special characters.
 START and END specify the region; interactively, use the values
 of point and mark.  The value of `smiley-regexp-alist' determines
 which smileys to operate on and which images to use for them."
@@ -109,17 +122,17 @@ which smileys to operate on and which im
     (save-excursion
       (let ((beg (or start (point-min)))
 	    (inhibit-point-motion-hooks t)
-	    group overlay image)
+	    group overlay display)
 	(dolist (entry smiley-cached-regexp-alist)
 	  (setq group (nth 1 entry)
-		image (nth 2 entry))
+		display (nth 2 entry))
 	  (goto-char beg)
 	  (while (re-search-forward (car entry) end t)
-	    (when image
+	    (when display
 	      (setq overlay (make-overlay (match-beginning group)
 					  (match-end group)))
 	      (overlay-put overlay
-			   'display `(when smiley-active ,@image))
+			   'display `(when smiley-active . ,display))
 	      (overlay-put overlay 'mouse-face 'highlight)
 	      (overlay-put overlay 'smiley t)
 	      (overlay-put overlay
@@ -148,7 +161,8 @@ With arg, turn displaying on if and only
 (eval-when-compile (defvar gnus-article-buffer))
 
 (defun gnus-smiley-display (&optional arg)
-  "Display textual emoticaons (\"smilies\") as small graphical icons.
+  "Display textual emoticons (\"smilies\") as small graphical icons.
+May also use strings to display them.  See `smiley-regexp-alist'.
 With arg, turn displaying on if and only if arg is positive."
   (interactive "P")
   (save-excursion

That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Jan Vroonhof]

I normally keep out of this kind of flame-war. Things have changed for
the better recently and I don't want to disturb that by dragging up
the bad old days. I hope the readers of 'ding' who must be all to
familiar with this particular flamewar will forgive me this message.

Dave Love <d.love@dl.ac.uk> writes:

> Note in this connexion that writing common image code is messy since
> XEmacs maintainers didn't cooperate on a common API 

This lies somewhere in between slander and 'the pot calling the kettle
black'. Work on Emacs 21 started (or appeared to) long after I joined
the XEmacs development and I don't recall _any_ request for such
cooperation. At the same time request for access to the fledgling
Emacs 21 for API comparisons from interesting XEmacs maintainers were
being obstructed.  The only inter-operability work was actually done
by poor elisp developers being hurt by this. Per and Bill, you know
who you are :-) and Thank you.

Luckily the latter has been solved, let's hope it is not too late.[1]

> and the XEmacs API is poorly documented.

Actually this particular bit of XEmacs is rather extensively
documented. I wish everything would be up to that standard. Maybe it
is not enough, but other people reimpleting APIs have made do with
less. And I would have been happy to ask question.

> Also the change recording in XEmacs and Gnus
> has often made it difficult or impossible to figure out the copyright
> status of code.

I am fairly sure XEmacs was already using CVS when smiley.el was
created and Lars has been making ChangeLogs since day one[2]. 

If you think chasing paperwork is more dull than coding[3] and that a
clean rewrite is a better way to demonstrate new API's, both of which
I agree with, then please just say just that, and don't use it to vent
some kind of (unbased IMO) grudge.

Jan

P.S. I will NOT reposond to follow-ups on this message on
non-appropriate fora, such as the ding list, if at all.

Footnotes:

[1] For the Emacs world as a whole, not just XEmacs<->Emacs
compatability.

[2] In fact I thought he was doing paperwork as well. The 'My gnus
changes are public domain' form was the first I ever sent.

[3] This is actually a worrying trend. A lot more non-paperwork Free
software is being produced, does this mean Emacs and other core GNU
software will suffer from the effective NIH syndrome created and if so
is there some cut-off point where that is hurting more than the clear
provenance gives you benefit? Has it maybe already been reached?

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Dave Love]

Jan Vroonhof <jan@xemacs.org> writes:

> I hope the readers of 'ding' who must be all to
> familiar with this particular flamewar will forgive me this message.

I don't know what `this particular flamewar' is.  I'm apparently being
told off out-of-the-blue for doing something useful (well, smiley.el
was mostly useful just as a test, and has wasted too much time) and
then being taken to task for explaining the background.

> > Note in this connexion that writing common image code is messy since
> > XEmacs maintainers didn't cooperate on a common API 
> 
> This lies somewhere in between slander and 'the pot calling the
> kettle black'.

Please reconsider.  I reported simply what happened in that case and I
believe I've been cooperative; at least you've thanked me for it.
That's surely what you'd expect of someone working for GNU.

> Work on Emacs 21 started (or appeared to) long after I joined
> the XEmacs development and I don't recall _any_ request for such
> cooperation.

Presumably you simply weren't informed of it by who was approached.
You can't conclude an approach wasn't made (and, indeed, followed up).
I guess there's more background people are ignorant of.

> At the same time request for access to the fledgling Emacs 21 for
> API comparisons from interesting XEmacs maintainers were being
> obstructed.

I don't know what that refers to, but I won't conclude it didn't
happen.  However, I was introduced to the new redisplay by an XEmacs
maintainer who contributed to the API and I doubt anyone was turned
away who offered to do something useful for Emacs.  Note I said
`_co_operate'.

> The only inter-operability work was actually done by poor elisp
> developers being hurt by this. Per and Bill, you know who you are
> :-) and Thank you.

That's hardly fair to Gerd and others.  Note that I worked not only on
XEmacs-isms in widget/Custom, Gnus and W3, but also introducing XEmacs
features into the Emacs core.  The logs tell part of the story.

> Luckily the latter has been solved, let's hope it is not too late.[1]

If that means there basically aren't problems with interoperability,
or that, for instance, W3 is yet clean enough to include in Emacs,
it's optimistic.

> Maybe it is not enough, but other people reimpleting APIs have made
> do with less.

There was no wish to re-implement the XEmacs API, just (for me) to
understand what code was doing.  Emacs 21 compatibility with XEmacs
was always the aim, all else being equal, but the redisplay API was
partly a reaction to the XEmacs one.

> I am fairly sure XEmacs was already using CVS when smiley.el was
> created and Lars has been making ChangeLogs since day one[2]. 

It's not a question of whether things are under CVS or whether logs
exist, it's whether they allow verifying authorship.  I speak from
experience, and I doubt anyone else would have been significantly
better at it.  If Gerd and I hadn't spent ages on this stuff, chased
papers and made sure some code was re-written, Gnus 5.9 wouldn't be in
Emacs 21.  If the provenance of XEmacs code was generally clear, more
would probably have got imported to Emacs (by me, if no-one else).

> and don't use it to vent some kind of (unbased IMO) grudge.

I'm presenting relevant facts.  If people don't understand, it won't
change.  What I said is directly relevant to Gnus and the non-trivial
amount of work I've done on it.  Much of that was unfortunately of a
wasteful nature, but someone had to do it in the circumstances.

> P.S. I will NOT reposond to follow-ups on this message on
> non-appropriate fora, such as the ding list, if at all.

I've no idea why it would be inappropriate to explain maintenance
issues concerning a GNU project on a list (I don't currently read)
devoted to it.

-- 
We want to cooperate, but we are not doormats.  -- rms

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Dave Love]

Jan Vroonhof <jan@xemacs.org> writes:

> I hope the readers of 'ding' who must be all to
> familiar with this particular flamewar will forgive me this message.

I don't know what `this particular flamewar' is.  I'm apparently being
told off out-of-the-blue for doing something useful (well, smiley.el
was mostly useful just as a test, and has wasted too much time) and
then being taken to task for explaining the background.

> > Note in this connexion that writing common image code is messy since
> > XEmacs maintainers didn't cooperate on a common API 
> 
> This lies somewhere in between slander and 'the pot calling the
> kettle black'.

Please reconsider.  I reported simply what happened in that case and I
believe I've been cooperative; at least you've thanked me for it.
That's surely what you'd expect of someone working for GNU.

> Work on Emacs 21 started (or appeared to) long after I joined
> the XEmacs development and I don't recall _any_ request for such
> cooperation.

Presumably you simply weren't informed of it by who was approached.
You can't conclude an approach wasn't made (and, indeed, followed up).
I guess there's more background people are ignorant of.

> At the same time request for access to the fledgling Emacs 21 for
> API comparisons from interesting XEmacs maintainers were being
> obstructed.

I don't know what that refers to, but I won't conclude it didn't
happen.  However, I was introduced to the new redisplay by an XEmacs
maintainer who contributed to the API and I doubt anyone was turned
away who offered to do something useful for Emacs.  Note I said
`_co_operate'.

> The only inter-operability work was actually done by poor elisp
> developers being hurt by this. Per and Bill, you know who you are
> :-) and Thank you.

That's hardly fair to Gerd and others.  Note that I worked not only on
XEmacs-isms in widget/Custom, Gnus and W3, but also introducing XEmacs
features into the Emacs core.  The logs tell part of the story.

> Luckily the latter has been solved, let's hope it is not too late.[1]

If that means there basically aren't problems with interoperability,
or that, for instance, W3 is yet clean enough to include in Emacs,
it's optimistic.

> Maybe it is not enough, but other people reimpleting APIs have made
> do with less.

There was no wish to re-implement the XEmacs API, just (for me) to
understand what code was doing.  Emacs 21 compatibility with XEmacs
was always the aim, all else being equal, but the redisplay API was
partly a reaction to the XEmacs one.

> I am fairly sure XEmacs was already using CVS when smiley.el was
> created and Lars has been making ChangeLogs since day one[2]. 

It's not a question of whether things are under CVS or whether logs
exist, it's whether they allow verifying authorship.  I speak from
experience, and I doubt anyone else would have been significantly
better at it.  If Gerd and I hadn't spent ages on this stuff, chased
papers and made sure some code was re-written, Gnus 5.9 wouldn't be in
Emacs 21.  If the provenance of XEmacs code was generally clear, more
would probably have got imported to Emacs (by me, if no-one else).

> and don't use it to vent some kind of (unbased IMO) grudge.

I'm presenting relevant facts.  If people don't understand, it won't
change.  What I said is directly relevant to Gnus and the non-trivial
amount of work I've done on it.  Much of that was unfortunately of a
wasteful nature, but someone had to do it in the circumstances.

> P.S. I will NOT reposond to follow-ups on this message on
> non-appropriate fora, such as the ding list, if at all.

I've no idea why it would be inappropriate to explain maintenance
issues concerning a GNU project on a list (I don't currently read)
devoted to it.

-- 
We want to cooperate, but we are not doormats.  -- rms

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Per Abrahamsen]

Dave Love <d.love@dl.ac.uk> writes:

> Jan Vroonhof <jan@xemacs.org> writes:
>
>> > Note in this connexion that writing common image code is messy since
>> > XEmacs maintainers didn't cooperate on a common API 
>> 
>> This lies somewhere in between slander and 'the pot calling the
>> kettle black'.
>
> Please reconsider.  I reported simply what happened in that case and I
> believe I've been cooperative; at least you've thanked me for it.

Where did you contact the XEmacs maintainers about a common image API?
I searched the xemacs-beta archives and couldn't find it there.  I did
find the a message where Jan thanked you for being cooperative about
the customize comment spec, but that has little to do with images.

Or was it someone else who contacted the XEmacs maintainers about the
image abi?  Who?  Where?

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Per Abrahamsen]

Dave Love <d.love@dl.ac.uk> writes:

> Jan Vroonhof <jan@xemacs.org> writes:
>
>> > Note in this connexion that writing common image code is messy since
>> > XEmacs maintainers didn't cooperate on a common API 
>> 
>> This lies somewhere in between slander and 'the pot calling the
>> kettle black'.
>
> Please reconsider.  I reported simply what happened in that case and I
> believe I've been cooperative; at least you've thanked me for it.

Where did you contact the XEmacs maintainers about a common image API?
I searched the xemacs-beta archives and couldn't find it there.  I did
find the a message where Jan thanked you for being cooperative about
the customize comment spec, but that has little to do with images.

Or was it someone else who contacted the XEmacs maintainers about the
image abi?  Who?  Where?

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Dave Love]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> Where did you contact the XEmacs maintainers about a common image
> API?

I didn't.  I got the history when I went to implement image features.
I don't see why details are important or why people think I'd make it
up.

> I searched the xemacs-beta archives and couldn't find it there.

I wouldn't have expected to find it there, but see
<URL:http://list-archive.xemacs.org/xemacs-beta/199809/msg00370.html>.
Note that was before core Emacs developers knew about it.
The subsequent exchange that caused the bad feeling was not there.

It's clear from that archive that XEmacs people had access
specifically to the Emacs 21 image API (which became image.el) and to
Emacs pretest source.  You can also see Gerd's collaboration over the
hash table API, but not other exchanges he and I (at least) had.
These often just made us more circumspect.  There's obviously plenty
on that list about Emacs and its developers which is misleading at
best.

This is now definitely not relevant to Gnus, even considering the
connexion of Bill Perry's work on inline images (which exhibited the
image API originally on the ding list).

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Dave Love]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> Where did you contact the XEmacs maintainers about a common image
> API?

I didn't.  I got the history when I went to implement image features.
I don't see why details are important or why people think I'd make it
up.

> I searched the xemacs-beta archives and couldn't find it there.

I wouldn't have expected to find it there, but see
<URL:http://list-archive.xemacs.org/xemacs-beta/199809/msg00370.html>.
Note that was before core Emacs developers knew about it.
The subsequent exchange that caused the bad feeling was not there.

It's clear from that archive that XEmacs people had access
specifically to the Emacs 21 image API (which became image.el) and to
Emacs pretest source.  You can also see Gerd's collaboration over the
hash table API, but not other exchanges he and I (at least) had.
These often just made us more circumspect.  There's obviously plenty
on that list about Emacs and its developers which is misleading at
best.

This is now definitely not relevant to Gnus, even considering the
connexion of Bill Perry's work on inline images (which exhibited the
image API originally on the ding list).

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Fabrice Popineau]

Something that has not been taken into consideration up to now : Wes
version of smiley.el works well on Unix _and_ on Windows for
XEmacs. 

The bad effect  of  the 'new' version  is that  it  just breaks  Gnus,
probably    because     some     variables     have   been     renames
(smiley-nosey-regexp-alist missing  here with the  new version).   But
with such a bug, that means  that an article is  just not displayed up
to its end :-(

Also, this might be stupid, but the image names you are using are not
the same as the ones that are distributed with XEmacs for years !

I don't think that replacing something which is working by something
that might work better one day but which does not seem to have been
tested extensively is such a good idea, especially for newbies.

-- 
Fabrice Popineau
------------------------
e-mail:       Fabrice.Popineau@supelec.fr  |  The difference between theory 
voice-mail:   +33 (0) 387764715            |  and practice, is that
surface-mail: Supelec, 2 rue E. Belin,     |  theoretically,
	      F-57070 Metz 	           |  there is no difference !

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Fabrice Popineau]

Something that has not been taken into consideration up to now : Wes
version of smiley.el works well on Unix _and_ on Windows for
XEmacs. 

The bad effect  of  the 'new' version  is that  it  just breaks  Gnus,
probably    because     some     variables     have   been     renames
(smiley-nosey-regexp-alist missing  here with the  new version).   But
with such a bug, that means  that an article is  just not displayed up
to its end :-(

Also, this might be stupid, but the image names you are using are not
the same as the ones that are distributed with XEmacs for years !

I don't think that replacing something which is working by something
that might work better one day but which does not seem to have been
tested extensively is such a good idea, especially for newbies.

-- 
Fabrice Popineau
------------------------
e-mail:       Fabrice.Popineau@supelec.fr  |  The difference between theory 
voice-mail:   +33 (0) 387764715            |  and practice, is that
surface-mail: Supelec, 2 rue E. Belin,     |  theoretically,
	      F-57070 Metz 	           |  there is no difference !

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Kai Großjohann]

Fabrice Popineau <Fabrice.Popineau@supelec.fr> writes:

> The bad effect  of  the 'new' version  is that  it  just breaks  Gnus,
> probably    because     some     variables     have   been     renames
> (smiley-nosey-regexp-alist missing  here with the  new version).   But
> with such a bug, that means  that an article is  just not displayed up
> to its end :-(

How about changing the configuration such that it doesn't refer to
the obsolete variable, anymore?  Does that help?

kai
-- 
~/.signature is: umop 3p!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Fabrice Popineau]

* Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

> How about changing the configuration such that it doesn't refer to
> the obsolete variable, anymore?  Does that help?

Probably, but it takes a bit of time to track down these changes and
what I meant is that reading email messages is a critical everyday
operation ;-)

I'm a bit more scared about things like changing the faces bitmap
names : it seems that fewer are used in the new version, and it is not
obvious to me which one should be map on which one (there is no
natural way to display xpm files under windows, except xemacs ;-). I
think that between the 2 sets of regexp / faces, the most extensive
one should be kept, not the 'gnu emacs' one or the 'xemacs' one.

Fabrice

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Fabrice Popineau]

* Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

> How about changing the configuration such that it doesn't refer to
> the obsolete variable, anymore?  Does that help?

Probably, but it takes a bit of time to track down these changes and
what I meant is that reading email messages is a critical everyday
operation ;-)

I'm a bit more scared about things like changing the faces bitmap
names : it seems that fewer are used in the new version, and it is not
obvious to me which one should be map on which one (there is no
natural way to display xpm files under windows, except xemacs ;-). I
think that between the 2 sets of regexp / faces, the most extensive
one should be kept, not the 'gnu emacs' one or the 'xemacs' one.

Fabrice

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Kai Großjohann]

Fabrice Popineau <Fabrice.Popineau@supelec.fr> writes:

> The bad effect  of  the 'new' version  is that  it  just breaks  Gnus,
> probably    because     some     variables     have   been     renames
> (smiley-nosey-regexp-alist missing  here with the  new version).   But
> with such a bug, that means  that an article is  just not displayed up
> to its end :-(

How about changing the configuration such that it doesn't refer to
the obsolete variable, anymore?  Does that help?

kai
-- 
~/.signature is: umop 3p!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Dave Love]

Fabrice Popineau <Fabrice.Popineau@supelec.fr> writes:

> The bad effect of the 'new' version is that it just breaks Gnus,

I don't know what you're talking about.  What I wrote works fine in
Emacs 21 (which was the point of doing it) and isn't used in Emacs 20
or XEmacs (where it won't work).  If you're picking it up in XEmacs, I
don't know why, and you'll have to debug the problem.

> Also, this might be stupid, but the image names you are using are not
> the same as the ones that are distributed with XEmacs for years !

Read the commentary I wrote.

> I don't think that replacing something which is working

I didn't replace anything; I added completely new code, as I had to
justify before.  Smilification previously didn't work in Emacs and now
it does (demonstrating infelicities).  It's hardly very useful, but
there you are.

> by something that might work better one day but which does not seem
> to have been tested extensively is such a good idea, especially for
> newbies.

smiley-ems.el was certainly tested.  That was essentially its purpose.
If someone has broken it so that it affects you, take it up with them.
I only use Gnus 5.9 in Emacs 21.

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Dave Love]

Fabrice Popineau <Fabrice.Popineau@supelec.fr> writes:

> The bad effect of the 'new' version is that it just breaks Gnus,

I don't know what you're talking about.  What I wrote works fine in
Emacs 21 (which was the point of doing it) and isn't used in Emacs 20
or XEmacs (where it won't work).  If you're picking it up in XEmacs, I
don't know why, and you'll have to debug the problem.

> Also, this might be stupid, but the image names you are using are not
> the same as the ones that are distributed with XEmacs for years !

Read the commentary I wrote.

> I don't think that replacing something which is working

I didn't replace anything; I added completely new code, as I had to
justify before.  Smilification previously didn't work in Emacs and now
it does (demonstrating infelicities).  It's hardly very useful, but
there you are.

> by something that might work better one day but which does not seem
> to have been tested extensively is such a good idea, especially for
> newbies.

smiley-ems.el was certainly tested.  That was essentially its purpose.
If someone has broken it so that it affects you, take it up with them.
I only use Gnus 5.9 in Emacs 21.

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Kai Großjohann]

Dave Love <d.love@dl.ac.uk> writes:

> Fabrice Popineau <Fabrice.Popineau@supelec.fr> writes:
>
>> The bad effect of the 'new' version is that it just breaks Gnus,
>
> I don't know what you're talking about.  What I wrote works fine in
> Emacs 21 (which was the point of doing it) and isn't used in Emacs 20
> or XEmacs (where it won't work).  If you're picking it up in XEmacs, I
> don't know why, and you'll have to debug the problem.

Dave, it seems you're not aware of the following change (note the
last line):

/----[ gnus/lisp/ChangeLog ]
| 2002-01-26  Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen  <larsi@gnus.org>
| 
| 	* nnheader.el (nnheader-insert-nov-file): Increased cutoff to
| 	32K.
| 
| 	* gnus-sum.el (gnus-summary-expire-articles): Clean up.
| 
| 	* nnmail.el (nnmail-article-group): Decode headers before running
| 	split rules over them.
| 	(nnmail-mail-splitting-charset): New variable.
| 
| 	* smiley.el: Replaced with smiley-ems.el.
\----

I guess the other folks are talking about this.  Well.  Not sure what
to do here.

Fabrice, do you now understand Dave's reaction better?

kai
-- 
~~/.signature is: umop 3p!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Fabrice Popineau]

* Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

> Fabrice, do you now understand Dave's reaction better?

Yes, sure. I hope Dave is understanding mine too ;-)

Just annoying hat it has found its way in the gnus cvs without being
guarded against the emacs versions on which it can run.

Sorry for the mess,

Fabrice

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Fabrice Popineau]

* Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

> Fabrice, do you now understand Dave's reaction better?

Yes, sure. I hope Dave is understanding mine too ;-)

Just annoying hat it has found its way in the gnus cvs without being
guarded against the emacs versions on which it can run.

Sorry for the mess,

Fabrice

Re: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes]

[Kai Großjohann]

Dave Love <d.love@dl.ac.uk> writes:

> Fabrice Popineau <Fabrice.Popineau@supelec.fr> writes:
>
>> The bad effect of the 'new' version is that it just breaks Gnus,
>
> I don't know what you're talking about.  What I wrote works fine in
> Emacs 21 (which was the point of doing it) and isn't used in Emacs 20
> or XEmacs (where it won't work).  If you're picking it up in XEmacs, I
> don't know why, and you'll have to debug the problem.

Dave, it seems you're not aware of the following change (note the
last line):

/----[ gnus/lisp/ChangeLog ]
| 2002-01-26  Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen  <larsi@gnus.org>
| 
| 	* nnheader.el (nnheader-insert-nov-file): Increased cutoff to
| 	32K.
| 
| 	* gnus-sum.el (gnus-summary-expire-articles): Clean up.
| 
| 	* nnmail.el (nnmail-article-group): Decode headers before running
| 	split rules over them.
| 	(nnmail-mail-splitting-charset): New variable.
| 
| 	* smiley.el: Replaced with smiley-ems.el.
\----

I guess the other folks are talking about this.  Well.  Not sure what
to do here.

Fabrice, do you now understand Dave's reaction better?

kai
-- 
~~/.signature is: umop 3p!sdn    (Frank Nobis)