[NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[Gerben Wierda via ntg-context]

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I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.

I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.

But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).

I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic.

Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is really free (so also for commercial use) to use out there?

Yours,

Gerben Wierda (LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerbenwierda>, Mastodon <https://newsie.social/@gctwnl>)
R&A IT Strategy <https://ea.rna.nl/> (main site)
Book: Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture <https://ea.rna.nl/the-book/>
Book: Mastering ArchiMate <https://ea.rna.nl/the-book-edition-iii/>


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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 16.06.23 um 18:35 schrieb Gerben Wierda via ntg-context:
> I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one 
> of the best places to find an answer.
> 
> I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
> 
> But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more 
> licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive 
> searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the 
> URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in 
> Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).
> 
> I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, 
> italic, bold, and bold-italic.
> 
> Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is /really/ free (so 
> also for commercial use) to use out there?

How about Libertinus Sans?
https://github.com/alerque/libertinus

Hraban

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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[Gerben Wierda via ntg-context]

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Only regular, italic, bold, no bold italic (just as the Linux Bilonium it was forked from)

> On 16 Jun 2023, at 18:39, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
> 
> Am 16.06.23 um 18:35 schrieb Gerben Wierda via ntg-context:
>> I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.
>> I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
>> But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).
>> I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic.
>> Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is /really/ free (so also for commercial use) to use out there?
> 
> How about Libertinus Sans?
> https://github.com/alerque/libertinus
> 
> Hraban
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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Gerben Wierda (LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerbenwierda>, Mastodon <https://newsie.social/@gctwnl>)
R&A IT Strategy <https://ea.rna.nl/> (main site)
Book: Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture <https://ea.rna.nl/the-book/>
Book: Mastering ArchiMate <https://ea.rna.nl/the-book-edition-iii/>


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[NTG-context] Can I use 'extend' and 'slant' in \definefontfamily to create fake italics etc.?

[Gerben Wierda via ntg-context]

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Libertinus Sans does not have Bold Italic. With this, I come close in ConTeXt:

\definefontfeature [fakeitalic] [slant=0.25]
\definefontfamily
  [archimate]
  [ss]
  [Libertinus Sans]
  [rscale=1.0395]
  [tf=style:Regular,
   bf=style:Bold,
   it=style:Italic,
   bi={style:Bold,features:fakeitalic}]

It is slightly 'thicker' and the lowercases have a somewhat lower height percentage of the uppercases than Optima, but this is the closest I have come.

G

> On 16 Jun 2023, at 18:55, Gerben Wierda via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
> 
> Only regular, italic, bold, no bold italic (just as the Linux Bilonium it was forked from)
> 
>> On 16 Jun 2023, at 18:39, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> wrote:
>> 
>> Am 16.06.23 um 18:35 schrieb Gerben Wierda via ntg-context:
>>> I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.
>>> I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
>>> But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).
>>> I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic.
>>> Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is /really/ free (so also for commercial use) to use out there?
>> 
>> How about Libertinus Sans?
>> https://github.com/alerque/libertinus <https://github.com/alerque/libertinus>
>> 
>> Hraban
>> 
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Gerben Wierda (LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerbenwierda>, Mastodon <https://newsie.social/@gctwnl>)
> R&A IT Strategy <https://ea.rna.nl/> (main site)
> Book: Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture <https://ea.rna.nl/the-book/>
> Book: Mastering ArchiMate <https://ea.rna.nl/the-book-edition-iii/>
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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> 
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Gerben Wierda (LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerbenwierda>, Mastodon <https://newsie.social/@gctwnl>)
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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[Mikael Sundqvist via ntg-context]

Hi,

On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 6:36 PM Gerben Wierda via ntg-context
<ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>
> I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.
>
> I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
>
> But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).
>
> I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic.
>
> Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is really free (so also for commercial use) to use out there?
>

Maybe you like libertinus sans (linux biolinum)?

/Mikael
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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[Marcus Vinicius Mesquita via ntg-context]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 1:36 PM Gerben Wierda via ntg-context
<ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>
> I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.
>
> I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
>
> But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).


Is this kind of tie-in sale even legal?


>
>
> I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic.
>
> Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is really free (so also for commercial use) to use out there?
>
> Yours,
>
> Gerben Wierda (LinkedIn, Mastodon)
> R&A IT Strategy (main site)
> Book: Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture
> Book: Mastering ArchiMate
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________



-- 
Todas as coisas fatigam o corpo, salvo a música, que não fatiga nem o
corpo nem seus membros, por ser descanso da alma, primavera do
coração, distração do aflito, entretenimento do solitário, e viático
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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[linguafalsa--- via ntg-context]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 06:35:49PM +0200, Gerben Wierda via ntg-context wrote:
> I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.
> 

It is the best community. And I tell you what. 

What happened is that all TeX engines have neglected fonts from the beginning.  

> I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
> 
> But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).
> 

Licensing freedom is an oxymoron. There's no freedom in licensing.
Only greed. 

The only extension engine that at one point had a plan in mind,
or most of the bases covered in this regard was Omega.

When it came to commercial fonts the plan of action ahead was by
including PFC data on these very same commercial fonts that would
benefit primarily its opentype versions in the long run.

What do you have right now? Opentype fonts only. Sure. Quality can be
even the same than its type1 counterpart, and at times not so much
according so some folks that have bothered to go the extra length in
making the most accurate comparison that's available between them two.

But looking at it from a bright side/perspective, I think we're no
longer facing the same pre-historic constraints of including a font
as before, as long as it's not for commercial purposes, You are well
aware of these non and commercial uses even before  your extensive
search anyway,

p.s many many years ago I read and followed some publications about
the aformentioned extension and just went over them recently, to
have an idea what did and did not work. In regards to typefaces,
its goal was unmatched, or so I think.

> I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic.
> 
> Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is really free (so also for commercial use) to use out there?
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Gerben Wierda (LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerbenwierda>, Mastodon <https://newsie.social/@gctwnl>)
> R&A IT Strategy <https://ea.rna.nl/> (main site)
> Book: Chess and the Art of Enterprise Architecture <https://ea.rna.nl/the-book/>
> Book: Mastering ArchiMate <https://ea.rna.nl/the-book-edition-iii/>
> 

> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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-- 
I must have slipped a disk -- my pack hurts!

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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 6/17/2023 2:06 AM, linguafalsa--- via ntg-context wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 06:35:49PM +0200, Gerben Wierda via ntg-context wrote:
>> I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.
>>
> 
> It is the best community. And I tell you what.
> 
> What happened is that all TeX engines have neglected fonts from the beginning.

Really? When tex showed up digital font technology was pretty much in 
flux. And, with metafont being part of the tex ecosystem, one can argue 
that tex was quite innovative too.

Potscript and its fonts came aroudn at the same time and were rather 
closed technologies. But as soon possible backend drivers (also part of 
the tex ecosystem) kicked in.

Then we got virtual fonts which enhanced tex's capabilities.

>> I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
>>
>> But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).
>>
> 
> Licensing freedom is an oxymoron. There's no freedom in licensing.
> Only greed.
> 
> The only extension engine that at one point had a plan in mind,
> or most of the bases covered in this regard was Omega.

One needs morr than plans. Afaik omega was more about input processing 
and th efont part was mostly going beyond 8 bit fonts but i might have 
missed something (omega was never productin ready).

It is xetex that hooked into opentype although pdftex can actually deal 
with truetype fonts to some extend. Before there was something 
'opentype' we had two competing but similar technologies. And it took a 
while before it was even clear how to interpre the specification (also 
think about reverse engeneering fonts and heuristics and ... bugs or 
features ...). TeX was always pretty fast in picking up new stuff (maybe 
users less so).

> When it came to commercial fonts the plan of action ahead was by
> including PFC data on these very same commercial fonts that would
> benefit primarily its opentype versions in the long run.

What is PFC data?

> What do you have right now? Opentype fonts only. Sure. Quality can be
> even the same than its type1 counterpart, and at times not so much
> according so some folks that have bothered to go the extra length in
> making the most accurate comparison that's available between them two.

For most fonts it's just 'more shapes' which then also leads to more 
ligatures, kerns etc btu that is already nice. And when fonts lack 
something we can always tweak them (runtime).

> But looking at it from a bright side/perspective, I think we're no
> longer facing the same pre-historic constraints of including a font
> as before, as long as it's not for commercial purposes, You are well
> aware of these non and commercial uses even before  your extensive
> search anyway,

I'm not sure what is the difference between commercial fonts and free 
ones as they use the same technology; with some exceptions, fonts are 
not that expensive (take lucida from tug, making fonts takes time after 
all); and for publishers it's noise on their budgets.

> p.s many many years ago I read and followed some publications about
> the aformentioned extension and just went over them recently, to
> have an idea what did and did not work. In regards to typefaces,
> its goal was unmatched, or so I think.

It might be comforting to know that right from the start luatex made a 
lot possible wrt fonts (runtime manipulation) and was also one of the 
first to support variable fonts, color fonts etc (not that many care 
about that). And with luametatex we go even further.

>> I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic.
>>
>> Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is really free (so also for commercial use) to use out there?
I had to search the net to figure out that flare sans fonts are sans 
fonts with serifs

For those into fonts:

https://tug.org/TUGboat/tb44-1/tb136carter-romano.pdf

I a very nice overview of how it went with digital fonts (and what we 
probably lost in getting where we are now and might loose soon).

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[Carlos via ntg-context]

On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 06:53:06PM +0200, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

> On 6/17/2023 2:06 AM, linguafalsa--- via ntg-context wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 06:35:49PM +0200, Gerben Wierda via ntg-context wrote:
> > > I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.
> > > 
> > 
> > It is the best community. And I tell you what.
> > 
> > What happened is that all TeX engines have neglected fonts from the beginning.
> 
> Really? When tex showed up digital font technology was pretty much in flux.
> And, with metafont being part of the tex ecosystem, one can argue that tex
> was quite innovative too.

Ecosystem. I would be very careful by including an ecosystem there.
Yes. Yes. The TeX ecosystem is obviously part of TeX but is not part
of the ecosystem of fonts either. And what is done on ecosystems
can either benefit or affect ecosystems greatly. And it's a known
trait that humans have been known for having more of a flock group
mentality for no apparent rationally-based reasons than just being
themselves making  these decisions/following instincts or whatever
and not because of a particular ecosystem, or for the benefit of the latter.

And the above does not imply, bear with me here, that metafont was
not innovative, but it can be argued that without TeX there is no
metafont, so no room is left for errors either. So, yes, it must be
innovative. It has to be.

> 
> Potscript and its fonts came aroudn at the same time and were rather closed
> technologies. But as soon possible backend drivers (also part of the tex
> ecosystem) kicked in.
> 
> Then we got virtual fonts which enhanced tex's capabilities.
> 
> > > I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
> > > 
> > > But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).
> > > 
> > 
> > Licensing freedom is an oxymoron. There's no freedom in licensing.
> > Only greed.
> > 
> > The only extension engine that at one point had a plan in mind,
> > or most of the bases covered in this regard was Omega.
> 
> One needs morr than plans. Afaik omega was more about input processing and
> th efont part was mostly going beyond 8 bit fonts but i might have missed
> something (omega was never productin ready).


Notwithstanding the intricacies/details of what may have actually
happened with its short lifespan I think it's more than clear the lack
of support behind it. I'm not going to delve into what exactly caused
its demise or if it was simply the after effect of other projects
that contributed to it. It's irrelevant.

But stand by for a second. I look forward to your quick witted answers. But hear me
out

Suppose that on my prior message I was referring indeed to 'mkii' and
not to 'omega' 

And also suppose for a second that the term 'omega' is to be replaced
with 'mkii' on your reply accordingly 

After careful observation the resemblance is quite possibly identical,
isn't it? and it could also inarguably apply to the circumstances as
well. Don't you think?

I mean, it's like comparing oranges with apples, and mkii with mkiv and
mkvi and so forth 

If you were to tell me then, that mkii for instance was not aimed
as an input processing I can almos assure its falsiliability is written
all over, even before the sentence is processed and thought out loud
by you.

Bottom line is that the production-ready part is an obvious byproduct
of its short lifespan, but one cannot be making the claim (false as
would have been seen later, because omega carbon footprint lasted more
on books than on shelves really, not for selling out fast but rather
discontinued quickly) and that its goal was solely within this input
processing spectrum. Because it wasn't.

Or heck

or heck. Let's go even further. By making the dubious assertion
that we've been built with noses to hold our eyeglasses lest these
eyeglasses fall off while reading, or that we've been built with ears
to hold pencils and pens in the ears while thinking and writing.

For crying out loud. 

> 
> It is xetex that hooked into opentype although pdftex can actually deal with
> truetype fonts to some extend. Before there was something 'opentype' we had
> two competing but similar technologies. And it took a while before it was
> even clear how to interpre the specification (also think about reverse
> engeneering fonts and heuristics and ... bugs or features ...). TeX was
> always pretty fast in picking up new stuff (maybe users less so).
> 
> > When it came to commercial fonts the plan of action ahead was by
> > including PFC data on these very same commercial fonts that would
> > benefit primarily its opentype versions in the long run.
> 
> What is PFC data?

The glyph containers on a table-based SFNT format 
> 
> > What do you have right now? Opentype fonts only. Sure. Quality can be
> > even the same than its type1 counterpart, and at times not so much
> > according so some folks that have bothered to go the extra length in
> > making the most accurate comparison that's available between them two.
> 
> For most fonts it's just 'more shapes' which then also leads to more
> ligatures, kerns etc btu that is already nice. And when fonts lack something
> we can always tweak them (runtime).

But it's not about kerns nor ligatures but hinting Hans, hinting, and
that alone right there, underlies the  whole reason by which experts
have been infatuated with digital fonts for ages. 

But I guess what you wrote earlier aligns in more ways than one with
what omega end-goal was, whether unwanted or not, routing along to
an opentype tunnel vision perspective, while shrugging off other
simplistic formats such as afm/tfm by breaking down the glyphs into
smaller pieces Although I would see it differently, and perhaps
I'm wrong. And perhaps it wasn't practical either, but for some
folks it was worth the extra complexities to undertake at the time,
while for many wasn't. Regardless, converters to take you over to
the containers' formats and include the tables later on was likely
needed either way. So why bother, right?

But pfc was the correct method and not others :) and for the right
reasons. 

> 
> > But looking at it from a bright side/perspective, I think we're no
> > longer facing the same pre-historic constraints of including a font
> > as before, as long as it's not for commercial purposes, You are well
> > aware of these non and commercial uses even before  your extensive
> > search anyway,
> 
> I'm not sure what is the difference between commercial fonts and free ones
> as they use the same technology; with some exceptions, fonts are not that
> expensive (take lucida from tug, making fonts takes time after all); and for
> publishers it's noise on their budgets.
> 
> > p.s many many years ago I read and followed some publications about
> > the aformentioned extension and just went over them recently, to
> > have an idea what did and did not work. In regards to typefaces,
> > its goal was unmatched, or so I think.
> 
> It might be comforting to know that right from the start luatex made a lot
> possible wrt fonts (runtime manipulation) and was also one of the first to
> support variable fonts, color fonts etc (not that many care about that). And
> with luametatex we go even further.
> 
> > > I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic.
> > > 
> > > Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is really free (so also for commercial use) to use out there?
> I had to search the net to figure out that flare sans fonts are sans fonts
> with serifs
> 
> For those into fonts:
> 
> https://tug.org/TUGboat/tb44-1/tb136carter-romano.pdf
> 
> I a very nice overview of how it went with digital fonts (and what we
> probably lost in getting where we are now and might loose soon).
> 
> Hans
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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-- 
	THE LESSER-KNOWN PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES #18: FIFTH

FIFTH is a precision mathematical language in which the data types
refer to quantity.  The data types range from CC, OUNCE, SHOT, and
JIGGER to FIFTH (hence the name of the language), LITER, MAGNUM and
BLOTTO.  Commands refer to ingredients such as CHABLIS, CHARDONNAY,
CABERNET, GIN, VERMOUTH, VODKA, SCOTCH, and WHATEVERSAROUND.

The many versions of the FIFTH language reflect the sophistication and
financial status of its users.  Commands in the ELITE dialect include
VSOP and LAFITE, while commands in the GUTTER dialect include HOOTCH
and RIPPLE. The latter is a favorite of frustrated FORTH programmers
who end up using this language.

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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 6/18/2023 8:37 PM, Carlos via ntg-context wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 06:53:06PM +0200, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> 
>> On 6/17/2023 2:06 AM, linguafalsa--- via ntg-context wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 06:35:49PM +0200, Gerben Wierda via ntg-context wrote:
>>>> I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is the best community. And I tell you what.
>>>
>>> What happened is that all TeX engines have neglected fonts from the beginning.
>>
>> Really? When tex showed up digital font technology was pretty much in flux.
>> And, with metafont being part of the tex ecosystem, one can argue that tex
>> was quite innovative too.
> 
> Ecosystem. I would be very careful by including an ecosystem there.
> Yes. Yes. The TeX ecosystem is obviously part of TeX but is not part
> of the ecosystem of fonts either. And what is done on ecosystems
> can either benefit or affect ecosystems greatly. And it's a known
> trait that humans have been known for having more of a flock group
> mentality for no apparent rationally-based reasons than just being
> themselves making  these decisions/following instincts or whatever
> and not because of a particular ecosystem, or for the benefit of the latter.

With ecosystemn I mean: tex, metafont, cmr fonts, all kind of tools ... 
evolving into more engines, more fonts, macro packages, distributions, 
user groups and use group journals, meetings etc

> And the above does not imply, bear with me here, that metafont was
> not innovative, but it can be argued that without TeX there is no
> metafont, so no room is left for errors either. So, yes, it must be
> innovative. It has to be.

There had to be metafont because there was not much else that could 
provide what tex needed (at that time).

>> Potscript and its fonts came aroudn at the same time and were rather closed
>> technologies. But as soon possible backend drivers (also part of the tex
>> ecosystem) kicked in.
>>
>> Then we got virtual fonts which enhanced tex's capabilities.
>>
>>>> I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
>>>>
>>>> But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Licensing freedom is an oxymoron. There's no freedom in licensing.
>>> Only greed.
>>>
>>> The only extension engine that at one point had a plan in mind,
>>> or most of the bases covered in this regard was Omega.
>>
>> One needs morr than plans. Afaik omega was more about input processing and
>> th efont part was mostly going beyond 8 bit fonts but i might have missed
>> something (omega was never productin ready).
> 
> Notwithstanding the intricacies/details of what may have actually
> happened with its short lifespan I think it's more than clear the lack
> of support behind it. I'm not going to delve into what exactly caused
> its demise or if it was simply the after effect of other projects
> that contributed to it. It's irrelevant.

Hm, its time span was not that short ... I first heard of omega at the 
eurotex meeting in arnhem where also etex was discussed (and you 
dont'want me to cite things said there) .. in successive years there 
have been announcemnts etc.

However, for an engine to be used it must work reliable and guiseppes 
'aleph' was basically a variant of omega that also had etex on board.
In fact, that was supported in context mkii (and some used it because of 
the input processor which i think was the more innovative thing in omega 
but i never dived into it, other users did)

It makes no sense to discuss into all this as all teams involved in 
engines have published in user group journals or presented plans at 
meetings.

Also keep in mind that we're talking frontend here; omega is dvi based 
so like regular tex and etex whatever it does with fonts is not really 
related to the engine bu tup to the backend: the engine only needs 
metrics (omega extended tfm into ofm for that).

pdftex brought a pdf backend, xetex pipes into a dvi backend, luatex has 
a pdf backend built in; (nts being related to etec never took of also 
because it was not that useable and in the meantime pdftex had taken 
over); there are afaik some very useable japanese tex engines; the fact 
that dvi survived was due to dvipdfmx development

> But stand by for a second. I look forward to your quick witted answers. But hear me
> out
> 
> Suppose that on my prior message I was referring indeed to 'mkii' and
> not to 'omega'
> 
> And also suppose for a second that the term 'omega' is to be replaced
> with 'mkii' on your reply accordingly
> 
> After careful observation the resemblance is quite possibly identical,
> isn't it? and it could also inarguably apply to the circumstances as
> well. Don't you think?

no it isn't, its building upon hat is there:

mkii     -> mkiv   -> mkxl
(pdf)tex -> luatex -> luametatex

> I mean, it's like comparing oranges with apples, and mkii with mkiv and
> mkvi and so forth

mkii is there, it works, stil used, quite stable etc ... it's not some 
half-way experiment and mkiv is just a follow up on it as is mkxl on mkiv

> If you were to tell me then, that mkii for instance was not aimed
> as an input processing I can almos assure its falsiliability is written
> all over, even before the sentence is processed and thought out loud
> by you.

I don't understand (omega input processing is not reading files as tex 
does, but juggling sequences of characters (tokens) into other sequences 
suitable for rendering from fonts ... a bit like contextual substitution 
does in open type). That might eventually in the engine lead to mapping 
glyphs or snippets but the resulting node lists is what the engine then 
carries on.

> Bottom line is that the production-ready part is an obvious byproduct
> of its short lifespan, but one cannot be making the claim (false as
> would have been seen later, because omega carbon footprint lasted more
> on books than on shelves really, not for selling out fast but rather
> discontinued quickly) and that its goal was solely within this input
> processing spectrum. Because it wasn't.

hm, there are a few things that could push omega: a special input 
processor (for scripts that need it, i think that was the evolving bit), 
large registers ranges (done slightly different than etex), and 
directionality (in retrospect only a few made sense which was admitted 
by one of the authors; that bit combined with local boxes became part of 
luatex). The mathml stuff in omega never really went operational i think.

But, i think there were more ambitious plans esp as i remember talks 
about media and multiple dimensions and languages and so but there we 
also have a chicken egg situation: one reason why luatex works is that 
it evolved parallel to context so it got used and functionality got 
tested; there were also (i think) more plans with etex, but as that go 
stalled it also stayed with one version and a few things added; pdftex 
had more impact because it was really used (e.g. in mkii) immediately.

> Or heck

So there is a lot involved in engines etc being accepted, a dedicated 
user base being one of them (could be a few users). A small community 
like the context one cannot simply jump on any engine. It also depends 
on needs.

In the end I think that etex an domega both beign around as possible 
extensions at least kept the users open minded about extensions.

> or heck. Let's go even further. By making the dubious assertion
> that we've been built with noses to hold our eyeglasses lest these
> eyeglasses fall off while reading, or that we've been built with ears
> to hold pencils and pens in the ears while thinking and writing.
> 
> For crying out loud.
>>
>> It is xetex that hooked into opentype although pdftex can actually deal with
>> truetype fonts to some extend. Before there was something 'opentype' we had
>> two competing but similar technologies. And it took a while before it was
>> even clear how to interpre the specification (also think about reverse
>> engeneering fonts and heuristics and ... bugs or features ...). TeX was
>> always pretty fast in picking up new stuff (maybe users less so).
>>
>>> When it came to commercial fonts the plan of action ahead was by
>>> including PFC data on these very same commercial fonts that would
>>> benefit primarily its opentype versions in the long run.
>>
>> What is PFC data?
> 
> The glyph containers on a table-based SFNT format

So just shapes or pieces of shapes?

>>> What do you have right now? Opentype fonts only. Sure. Quality can be
>>> even the same than its type1 counterpart, and at times not so much
>>> according so some folks that have bothered to go the extra length in
>>> making the most accurate comparison that's available between them two.
>>
>> For most fonts it's just 'more shapes' which then also leads to more
>> ligatures, kerns etc btu that is already nice. And when fonts lack something
>> we can always tweak them (runtime).
> 
> But it's not about kerns nor ligatures but hinting Hans, hinting, and
> that alone right there, underlies the  whole reason by which experts
> have been infatuated with digital fonts for ages.

hinting ... well, rendering is not part of the frontend .. tex is shape 
agnostic and whether or not hints get passes is upto a backend and using 
them is up to a viewer or printer

in fact, one can argue that metafonts have some kind of hinting as they 
deal with snapping and rounding

but nowadays hinting ... displays are pretty good so ...

> But I guess what you wrote earlier aligns in more ways than one with
> what omega end-goal was, whether unwanted or not, routing along to
> an opentype tunnel vision perspective, while shrugging off other
> simplistic formats such as afm/tfm by breaking down the glyphs into
> smaller pieces Although I would see it differently, and perhaps
> I'm wrong. And perhaps it wasn't practical either, but for some
> folks it was worth the extra complexities to undertake at the time,
> while for many wasn't. Regardless, converters to take you over to
> the containers' formats and include the tables later on was likely
> needed either way. So why bother, right?

I suppose that tex can adapt to anything out there, because most of the 
time it only constructs stuff and then needs dimensions of what it made.

(There have been plenty proposals or experiments i think but in the end 
it is usage that makes things work out.  We have some font stuff in 
context that cna be used for advanced irmprovements but no one uses them 
because it depends on fonts that never showed up.)

> But pfc was the correct method and not others :) and for the right
> reasons.

Still unclear to me in what sense. You have to prove it with examples or 
some reference that explains how it could work out (from user input to 
reliable rendering.)
  Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[luigi scarso via ntg-context]

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On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 at 21:56, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
wrote:

> On 6/18/2023 8:37 PM, Carlos via ntg-context wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 06:53:06PM +0200, Hans Hagen via ntg-context
> wrote:
> >> What is PFC data?
> >
> > The glyph containers on a table-based SFNT format
>
> So just shapes or pieces of shapes?
>
>
https://hal.science/hal-02112905v1/file/article-yannis.pdf

--
luigi

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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context]

> On 16 Jun 2023, at 17:35, Gerben Wierda via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
> 
> I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.
> 
> I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
> 
> But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).
> 
> I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic.
> 
> Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is really free (so also for commercial use) to use out there?

Not free but good value: Fontspring have a font called Ophian that looks (to my untrained eye!) a reasonable match with Optima.

<https://www.fontspring.com/fonts/fontsite/ophian>

$22 for the first licence added to the shopping cart then reductions show for the subsequent licences. I'm guessing you'll need two: desktop in order to install on a PC and publish a printed book, and eBook to allow distribution of a PDF or eBook, so 33 USD in total. There's no time limit nor number of copies limit as far as I can see - just one eBook licence per title.

Maybe there will be VAT etc added when you get to checkout - I didn't go that far.

Regards,
—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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Re: [NTG-context] Off topic: Does a 'free for commercial use' flared-sans font exist in the world?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 6/18/2023 10:20 AM, Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 16 Jun 2023, at 17:35, Gerben Wierda via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>>
>> I know this is off topic, but I suspect this community is actually one of the best places to find an answer.
>>
>> I really like Optima, and what I really like about it is the 'flared style'.
>>
>> But I would like to move to a flared-sans font that gives me more licensing freedom. I haven't been able to find one after extensive searching. The only one who were reasonably priced (not free) were the URW Classico ones in Adobe Creative Cloud, but those can only be used in Adobe programs like InDesign (and not TeX).
>>
>> I found some flared-sans fonts, but not one with at least regular, italic, bold, and bold-italic.
>>
>> Is there really not a single flared-sans font that is really free (so also for commercial use) to use out there?
> 
> Not free but good value: Fontspring have a font called Ophian that looks (to my untrained eye!) a reasonable match with Optima.
> 
> <https://www.fontspring.com/fonts/fontsite/ophian>

Optima has a very recognizable and distinctive design. One of my 
favourites. The palatino nova is another favourite and has a nice sans 
(casual).

> $22 for the first licence added to the shopping cart then reductions show for the subsequent licences. I'm guessing you'll need two: desktop in order to install on a PC and publish a printed book, and eBook to allow distribution of a PDF or eBook, so 33 USD in total. There's no time limit nor number of copies limit as far as I can see - just one eBook licence per title.
> 
> Maybe there will be VAT etc added when you get to checkout - I didn't go that far.
Yes, but it smells a bit like some clone. I have an official optima nova 
cd (in type one format, i can't afford the opentype right now) as well 
as the official palatino nova cd (in opentype format); I got them from 
the master himself, which makes them even more special. (It reminds me 
that I need to check if we can drop in replacements in the pagella math.)

Hans

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