[TUHS] A decision

[TUHS] A decision

[Warren Toomey]

All, in the 25 years of running this list, generally things have gone
well and I've not had to make many unilateral decisions. But today I
have chosen to unsubscribe Joerg Schilling from the list.

I'm sending this e-mail in so that there is a level of transparency here.
I've sent Joerg an e-mail outlining my reasons.

Cheers, Warren

[TUHS] A decision

[Josh Good]

On 2017 Apr  6, 08:22, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All, in the 25 years of running this list, generally things have gone
> well and I've not had to make many unilateral decisions. But today I
> have chosen to unsubscribe Joerg Schilling from the list.
> 
> I'm sending this e-mail in so that there is a level of transparency here.
> I've sent Joerg an e-mail outlining my reasons.
> 
> Cheers, Warren

A decision is a decision, and I don't pretend that you revert it.

However, Joerg Schilling, notwithstanding his (lack of?) social
abilities and confrontational style of writing, has provided valuable
historical information, and has a non-dismissable background. It is
also worrying that this is making TUHS even more USA-centric, and that
his european point of view (however removed from "on-the-ground" MIT-
or Berkely-epicenters first hand info) is being silenced.

In my opinion, the TUHS list has been a very enjoyable read in recent
times, and those who found Joerg unpalatable had already "kill-filed" him.

Peace,

-- 
Josh Good

[TUHS] A decision

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 10:08:41PM +0200, Josh Good wrote:
>
> However, Joerg Schilling, notwithstanding his (lack of?) social
> abilities and confrontational style of writing, has provided valuable
> historical information, and has a non-dismissable background. 
       
I disagree with both of these assertions; I was weary of the repeated
personal attacks and misinformation, and I am grateful that Warren is
preserving the focus of TUHS.
       
khm

[TUHS] A decision

[Aram Hăvărneanu]

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> I disagree with both of these assertions; I was weary of the repeated
> personal attacks and misinformation, and I am grateful that Warren is
> preserving the focus of TUHS.

I agree.

Thanks Warren for your continued efforts of keeping the flame alive!

-- 
Aram Hăvărneanu

[TUHS] A decision

[Josh Good]

On 2017 Apr  6, 23:23, Aram H??v??rneanu wrote:
> > I disagree with both of these assertions; I was weary of the repeated
> > personal attacks and misinformation, and I am grateful that Warren is
> > preserving the focus of TUHS.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> Thanks Warren for your continued efforts of keeping the flame alive!

I am grateful to Warren too, for a mailing list needs to be curated,
and he is putting a lot of valuable time and wise effort into that job!

However, I chimed in just to note that the decision, however legitimate
and based on the list owner's best criterion, is not an "unanimous
feeling".

I hope I can be in disagreement while respecting Warren's decision.

-- 
Josh Good

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Warren Toomey]

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 10:08:41PM +0200, Josh Good wrote:
> It is also worrying that this is making TUHS even more USA-centric, and that
> his european point of view (however removed from "on-the-ground" MIT-
> or Berkely-epicenters first hand info) is being silenced.

That's a good point Josh. I've been trying to find copies of UKUUG and
EUUG newsletters to add to the archive, along with the AUUG newsletters.

So if you're on this list and outside of the US, now is the time to
speak up with anecotes etc. Oh, and if you have anything worth adding
to the Unix Archive, please let me know!

Cheers, Warren

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Dave Horsfall]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Warren Toomey wrote:

> So if you're on this list and outside of the US, now is the time to 
> speak up with anecotes etc. Oh, and if you have anything worth adding to 
> the Unix Archive, please let me know!

The problem is that some of them are still alive :-)

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Alec Muffett]

On 7 April 2017 at 00:09, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> So if you're on this list and outside of the US, now is the time to
> speak up with anecotes etc. Oh, and if you have anything worth adding
> to the Unix Archive, please let me know!
>

So: you're looking for European geeks?  I think I know where to find some...

Hello, my name is Alec, and I have been a Unix addict for around 30 years
now. :-)

I'm based in the UK, specifically near Farnborough; formerly University of
Aberystwyth (3yr), then Sun Microsystems (17yr), various, then Facebook
(3yr).

First encounter with Unix: as an undergrad in 1987 using 4.2BSD on the Sun
3/50 and 3/160, and first job was porting them to "SunOS".

Story to add to the collective zeitgeist? I have all the versions of Crack
- because I wrote it - but it also led to an interesting tale, told at
length in a video*, but which I can recap as "I was appointed
'cryptographic moderator' of comp.sources.misc because Kent Landfield, the
actual moderator, was dragged into a USG attempt to prosecute Phil
Zimmerman for publishing PGP, and US-based moderation of crypto publication
became an issue."

If I have anything to contribute it's likely paper-based or war-stories;
I'm pretty sure I have old MACRO-11 manuals, and maybe a few copies of the
old unix programmer docs, but there was too much to keep the whole thing.
If anyone is interested in multi-user games, I have the original source of
AberMUD, printed on fanfold, implemented in B for GCOS3 on a Honeywell L-66
(a machine which was literally advertised as being able to withstand
grenade detonations within N feet)

Unixes I have hacked on:

4.1-4.3 BSD on Vaxes and Suns

Gould UTX/32 on a "NP-1" - a bizarre machine which used 2 Coherent PCs, one
as a sort of bootloader (?) and the other as a master console which was so
deeply integrated into the system that simply pressing "Return" on the
console was enough to time-out all X.25 Ethernet sessions on the machine

Dynix/PTX on a Sequent; odd, but fun.

MIPS/Ultrix on DEC 5820, later 5830 when the performance was underwhelming;
then we found that the DECStation5000/200 which served as an ops-console
was at least as performant as the servers, and we put _that_ into
user-service, too.; various DESstations

Mostly every SunOS/Solaris from 1987-2009

$modern_stuff.  Loving having a farm of Raspberry Pi at home.  One of them
is now labelled "vaxa" and running an 11/780 SIMH with 4.2BSD on it, though
I would love to upgrade that to Tahoe/Reno and get it talking to the net
via NAT.  I've found the source of the DEC ethernet driver and am racking
my brains trying to remember how to rebuild the kernel...

    - alec

* video: https://video.adm.ntnu.no/pres/5494065ba6b9f

-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
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[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Robert Swierczek]

> If anyone is interested in multi-user games, I have the original source of
> AberMUD, printed on fanfold, implemented in B for GCOS3 on a Honeywell L-66
> (a machine which was literally advertised as being able to withstand grenade
> detonations within N feet)

Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Alec Muffett]

On 7 April 2017 at 10:32, Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> wrote:

> > If anyone is interested in multi-user games, I have the original source
> of
> > AberMUD, printed on fanfold, implemented in B for GCOS3 on a Honeywell
> L-66
> > (a machine which was literally advertised as being able to withstand
> grenade
> > detonations within N feet)
>
> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>

It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
it, somewhere.

    -a

-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
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[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> writes:
>> If anyone is interested in multi-user games, I have the original source of
>> AberMUD, printed on fanfold, implemented in B for GCOS3 on a Honeywell L-66
>> (a machine which was literally advertised as being able to withstand grenade
>> detonations within N feet)
>
> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)

There is also the very first MUD written in Essex BCPL.  The Essex
compiler was recently unearthed.

https://github.com/PDP-10/MUD1
https://github.com/PDP-10/essex-bcpl

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[jsteve]

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Abermud on a L-66?  That certainly sounds interesting!

I bought efylon.org a few years ago to keep the abermud list alive.  I had setup a 4.2BSD SIMH VAX that replaced the login program with the AberMUD 2 that I had found on http://abermud.tripod.com/mudstuff.html .

Although I’m sure running it will be some fun.... 


From: Alec Muffett
Sent: Friday, 7 April 2017 6:25 PM
To: Robert Swierczek
Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

On 7 April 2017 at 10:32, Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> wrote:
> If anyone is interested in multi-user games, I have the original source of
> AberMUD, printed on fanfold, implemented in B for GCOS3 on a Honeywell L-66
> (a machine which was literally advertised as being able to withstand grenade
> detonations within N feet)

Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)

It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from it, somewhere.

    -a


-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm

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[TUHS] A decision

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

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Josh Good <pepe at naleco.com> wrote:
 |On 2017 Apr  6, 23:23, Aram H??v??rneanu wrote:
 |>> I disagree with both of these assertions; I was weary of the repeated
 |>> personal attacks and misinformation, and I am grateful that Warren is
 |>> preserving the focus of TUHS.
 |> 
 |> I agree.
 |> 
 |> Thanks Warren for your continued efforts of keeping the flame alive!
 |
 |I am grateful to Warren too, for a mailing list needs to be curated,
 |and he is putting a lot of valuable time and wise effort into that job!
 |
 |However, I chimed in just to note that the decision, however legitimate
 |and based on the list owner's best criterion, is not an "unanimous
 |feeling".
 |
 |I hope I can be in disagreement while respecting Warren's decision.

I share that with you.

I have had private communication with Jörg Schilling in the past
and i think he is a very sensitive person.  I have used his
software, yes, decades before that, and he has undisputable merits
regarding the creation, maintaining and deployment of free and
open software at least, but likely even the clearing of formerly
closed source code from the sun side of the road.  I cannot
comment on the latter nor the historical facts.

But the last exchange rate of Austrian Schilling and German Mark
that i know was 7:1, still i liked spending the former.  I more
and more often (than, say, in the 70s) get the impression that the
world judges too much by the cover, let completely aside the
unwritten in between the lines, but which for more aboriginal is
the sole thing that is transported by speech!  I can't help to
wonder whether this direction is the right one.

--steffen

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 7 Apr 2017, at 00:09, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> That's a good point Josh. I've been trying to find copies of UKUUG and
> EUUG newsletters to add to the archive, along with the AUUG newsletters.

We certainly have some EUUG / UKUUG stuff, on paper though, and I'm not sure where they are and it is probably very partial.

While going through papers recently we found what was I am reasonably sure the quote for the first Sun sold in Scotland which might be of some interest (inevitably I now don't know where it is, although we did not throw it away).  We're not sure whether it is for that machine, but we are sure that my wife (who isn't on the list) ran it (a 2/120 we think).  It started out with SunOS 1 (or perhaps before).

Unfortunately we have thrown a lot of stuff away as we just didn't have room, including lots of SunOS & other distributions.

We both have the usual anecdotes about doing what seems now like unreasonably heroic things to fix broken systems: nothing that almost everyone who ran machines in the 1980s did not do, I think.

It's strange to think that when we first seriously encountered Unix it was about 14 or 15, while now it is 47: we've used Unix for the great majority of its life while not in any way feeling like 'old unix people': the systems we started with had huge address spaces, virtual memory and IP stacks and almost had things like NFS, and were just clearly almost unrecognisably advanced over what had existed in the early history which seemed so long ago but actually was not.

--tim

[TUHS] A decision

[William Corcoran]

Well, this is a fascinating place.  So many pioneers, including Warren's endless contributions can be found here.  

I would feel awful if I were kicked out without any kind of due process.  I mean 100 years from now, this place will live on and continue to be a primary source.

Perhaps, it would be better for Warren to create a policy, if it does not already exist, and then show how that policy was violated. 

Next, there should also be a panel of at least three arbiters that could be used for the subject to appeal any decision.  

Also, having a policy in place would allow for progressive discipline to be implemented: first a warning, then privileges suspended and finally privileges revoked. 



Truly,

Bill Corcoran

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[jsteve]

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That’s too bad all the old Sun kit was lost, without even imaging it.  I’ve been playing with TME, and going through some motions on getting SunOS 2.0 running.  SunOS 1.0 would have been interesting as well, and or anything from the SUN-100 days.


From: Tim Bradshaw
Sent: Friday, 7 April 2017 8:09 PM
To: Warren Toomey
Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

On 7 Apr 2017, at 00:09, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> That's a good point Josh. I've been trying to find copies of UKUUG and
> EUUG newsletters to add to the archive, along with the AUUG newsletters.

We certainly have some EUUG / UKUUG stuff, on paper though, and I'm not sure where they are and it is probably very partial.

While going through papers recently we found what was I am reasonably sure the quote for the first Sun sold in Scotland which might be of some interest (inevitably I now don't know where it is, although we did not throw it away).  We're not sure whether it is for that machine, but we are sure that my wife (who isn't on the list) ran it (a 2/120 we think).  It started out with SunOS 1 (or perhaps before).

Unfortunately we have thrown a lot of stuff away as we just didn't have room, including lots of SunOS & other distributions.

We both have the usual anecdotes about doing what seems now like unreasonably heroic things to fix broken systems: nothing that almost everyone who ran machines in the 1980s did not do, I think.

It's strange to think that when we first seriously encountered Unix it was about 14 or 15, while now it is 47: we've used Unix for the great majority of its life while not in any way feeling like 'old unix people': the systems we started with had huge address spaces, virtual memory and IP stacks and almost had things like NFS, and were just clearly almost unrecognisably advanced over what had existed in the early history which seemed so long ago but actually was not.

--tim

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[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[tfb]

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On 7 Apr 2017, at 13:25, jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com wrote:
> 
> That’s too bad all the old Sun kit was lost, without even imaging it.  I’ve been playing with TME, and going through some motions on getting SunOS 2.0 running.  SunOS 1.0 would have been interesting as well, and or anything from the SUN-100 days.

I don't think we had anything that old left: we had only 4.x (and probably only 4.1.x).  I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that there were just lots of copied of that stuff. Anything older was QIC tapes.

In fact there's a sad story about that, too: most of this stuff lived in the machine room shared by AI, CSTR & AIAI at 80 South Bridge, Edinburgh (there was another AI machine room in Forest Hill but I always worked in departments based at South Bridge).

That building had been a department store and had a lift shaft which which had been filled with RS232 and, later, ethernet cable.  I used to worry that the lift shaft was a fire risk as it was a great vertical hole in the building full of probably-flammable insulation on the cables.  And the whole building sat on top of a club and several other structures going down to the Cowgate (the machine room was significantly noisy at night, when I used to spend too much time in it playing with an orphaned Symbolics 3670).  There was a tape store which probably had interesting things in it.  Access to the machine room was insanely hard: everything that went in there was carried down stairs by strong people.

Sometime after I had left (I was there from 1989 to 1999 on and off), on 7th December 2002, the building burned down due I think to a fire which started in the club below it.  I am not sure if the fire spread up the lift shaft (which didn't go down below the machine room level).

I don't know what was still in the machine room & tape store -- certainly most of the tapes & a bunch of interesting but mostly dead machines, all of which were lost of course.

The thing which was lost which *actually* mattered was the AI library, which had a lot of completely irreplaceable early history of AI in it: the AI department at Edinburgh was very early and most have originally been populated by a lot of ex-Bletchley Park people, including Donald Michie, who was fascinating to talk to.

I believe (this may not be true and if it is not then I apologise in case anyone who was involved reads it) that the AI department was making backups but *not* taking them off-site (SB ones to FH & the other way around) at the time of the fire.  They *were* putting them in the fire safe though.  The fire safe (which wasn't in the machine room as it was absurdly heavy so it sat in the back entranceway of the building) fell through the floor, *but survived intact*.  So they were lucky.

But a lot of history must have been lost in that fire.

[TUHS] A decision

[Andru Luvisi]

Sometimes a leader has to make difficult decisions. I see no point in
making them more difficult by playing armchair quarterback after the fact.

I also see no point in establishing an entire bureaucracy just to handle a
problem that only comes up once every 10 years.

On Apr 7, 2017 5:20 AM, "William Corcoran" <wlc at jctaylor.com> wrote:


Well, this is a fascinating place.  So many pioneers, including Warren's
endless contributions can be found here.

I would feel awful if I were kicked out without any kind of due process.  I
mean 100 years from now, this place will live on and continue to be a
primary source.

Perhaps, it would be better for Warren to create a policy, if it does not
already exist, and then show how that policy was violated.

Next, there should also be a panel of at least three arbiters that could be
used for the subject to appeal any decision.

Also, having a policy in place would allow for progressive discipline to be
implemented: first a warning, then privileges suspended and finally
privileges revoked.



Truly,

Bill Corcoran
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[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[George Ross]

(I'm from the Computer Science side of things.  We (CS), AI and CogSci were 
joined together to form Informatics not very long before the fire, so I was 
often in the building but only familiar with parts of it.  I got to know 
Forrest Hill *much* better.)

> Sometime after I had left (I was there from 1989 to 1999 on and off), on
> 7th December 2002, the building burned down due I think to a fire which
> started in the club below it.  I am not sure if the fire spread up the lift
> shaft (which didn't go down below the machine room level).

My understanding is that it wasn't the lift shaft's fault.  There were other 
vertical shafts through the building, and it was one of those which spread 
the fire.  Apparently the fireman who opened it up got quite a surprise.

> The thing which was lost which *actually* mattered was the AI library ...

Yes, that was a real shame.

> I believe (this may not be true and if it is not then I apologise in case
> anyone who was involved reads it) that the AI department was making backups
> but *not* taking them off-site (SB ones to FH & the other way around) at the
> time of the fire.  They *were* putting them in the fire safe though.  The
> fire safe (which wasn't in the machine room as it was absurdly heavy so it
> sat in the back entranceway of the building) fell through the floor, *but
> survived intact*.  So they were lucky.

That's a pretty reasonable summary, and we were indeed, mostly.  And the
firesafe was at the other end of the building from the worst of the fire.
There were a few people, though, who were taking personal backups and
keeping them safely locked up in their desk drawers.  We learned a lot from 
that experience!  (Now we don't even consider Appleton Tower and the 
Informatics Forum, just across the street from each other, to be 
sufficiently far apart, so we mirror everything off-site to KB a couple of 
miles up the road.)

Incidentally, <http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/> has a rather unstructured
collection of historical Edinburgh computing stuff, though it is a bit
skewed by where the contributors were originally based.  The CAAD people
were into UNIX quite early IIRC, but we don't have much from that side.

Dragging us back onto list-topic, we were pretty much entirely a Sun site 
at that point.  We (CS) used to do our own thing hardware- and systems-wise, 
but eventually UNIX boxes of various kinds started to appear.  Initially it 
was a VAX 11/750 running 4.2BSD, which I mostly managed, then a Pyramid, a 
Gould (shared with AI and EE), then lots of Suns.  It was economies of 
scale, really: they could sell us stuff cheaper than we could build it 
ourselves.  Now we're mostly Linux on PCs, though with a motley collection 
of other odds and ends hung off.

So I'm mostly an interested listener on this list!
-- 
George D M Ross MSc PhD CEng MBCS CITP, University of Edinburgh,
School of Informatics, 10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH8 9AB
Mail: gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk   Voice: 0131 650 5147   Fax: 0131 650 6899
PGP: 1024D/AD758CC5  B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A  426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

[TUHS] A decision

[Kurt H Maier]

On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 08:20:06AM -0400, William Corcoran wrote:
> 
> Also, having a policy in place would allow for progressive discipline to be implemented: first a warning, then privileges suspended and finally privileges revoked. 
> 

But that is what happened.  

khm

[TUHS] A decision

[Larry McVoy]

On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 08:09:01AM -0700, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 08:20:06AM -0400, William Corcoran wrote:
> > 
> > Also, having a policy in place would allow for progressive discipline to be implemented: first a warning, then privileges suspended and finally privileges revoked. 
> > 
> 
> But that is what happened.  
> 
> khm

Indeed.  Perhaps I shouldn't comment, since I had some conflicts with
Joerg, but just this one observation.  To this day, I struggle with my
own lack of tact, I'm just not good at coming across well.  That's my
problem, noone taught me that, noone encourages me to be impolite,
it's mine, and I own it.  If I don't keep it under control then I lose
access to mailing lists, forums, what have you.

Joerg was warned and sadly couldn't or wouldn't tone down his interactions
on the list.  It's a bummer, because he does have things to add to the
conversation.  But some of his contributions caused people to leave the
list.  Keep that in mind, we lost people and that's never good.

I'm not sure how any formal process would have had a different outcome
and, as khm says, the informal process was identical to the proposed
formal process.

--lm

[TUHS] A decision

[ron minnich]

I agree with Warren's decision, but I think out of respect for Joerg this
discussion ought to be taken off list.

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 8:23 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 08:09:01AM -0700, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 08:20:06AM -0400, William Corcoran wrote:
> > >
> > > Also, having a policy in place would allow for progressive discipline
> to be implemented: first a warning, then privileges suspended and finally
> privileges revoked.
> > >
> >
> > But that is what happened.
> >
> > khm
>
> Indeed.  Perhaps I shouldn't comment, since I had some conflicts with
> Joerg, but just this one observation.  To this day, I struggle with my
> own lack of tact, I'm just not good at coming across well.  That's my
> problem, noone taught me that, noone encourages me to be impolite,
> it's mine, and I own it.  If I don't keep it under control then I lose
> access to mailing lists, forums, what have you.
>
> Joerg was warned and sadly couldn't or wouldn't tone down his interactions
> on the list.  It's a bummer, because he does have things to add to the
> conversation.  But some of his contributions caused people to leave the
> list.  Keep that in mind, we lost people and that's never good.
>
> I'm not sure how any formal process would have had a different outcome
> and, as khm says, the informal process was identical to the proposed
> formal process.
>
> --lm
>
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[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Alec Muffett]

On 7 April 2017 at 11:24, Alec Muffett <alec.muffett at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7 April 2017 at 10:32, Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>>
>
> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
> it, somewhere.
>

I've posted a few images at https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714

Username "iy7" spattered around the text, was Alan Cox.

I suppose the most notable thing is use of asterisk, where C coders would
expect backslash?  And the lack of types.

    -a

-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
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[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Robert Swierczek]

>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>
>
> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
> it, somewhere.

That would be wonderful, but I would really like to bring that
software back to life again.  Does anyone know of an inexpensive and
non-labor intensive solution to this?  I imagine a fanfold printout
should be fairly easy to scan given the proper scanner.  I don't know
how or if the scanner should be taken to Alec's printout or
visa-versa.

I apologize if I sound too eager, but I feel these windows of
opportunity open rarely and then close quick and often permanently.

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Toby Thain]

On 2017-04-07 1:57 PM, Robert Swierczek wrote:
>>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>>
>>
>> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
>> it, somewhere.
>
> That would be wonderful, but I would really like to bring that
> software back to life again.  Does anyone know of an inexpensive and
> non-labor intensive solution to this?  I imagine a fanfold printout
> should be fairly easy to scan given the proper scanner.  I don't know
> how or if the scanner should be taken to Alec's printout or
> visa-versa.

Yes, a full duplex ADF scanner, like the Fujitsu fi-4530 I own, can do 
it, but you would need to guillotine off the perforations (take it 
around to your local printer, who has the right guillotine).

--Toby


>
> I apologize if I sound too eager, but I feel these windows of
> opportunity open rarely and then close quick and often permanently.
>

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Dave Horsfall]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> The problem is that some of them are still alive :-)

Oh, OK; I'll leave out the names...  This is the story of the Great Root 
Password Disaster.

Way back at UNSW (University of New South Wales for the Aussie-bereft), 
the major Unix players decided to use a common root password (yes, 
really!) so that they could access each others' systems.  I was working 
for the CSU (Computing Services Unit for the UNSW-bereft) and I thought it 
was a stupid idea, and refused to join.

Well, the obvious happened...  The password must've been leaked (as 
passwords do) because every box got hacked, except mine.  Naturally, I got 
blamed for it; here's a chrome-plated hint: never blame me for something 
that I did not do...  And I still don't know what their shared root 
password was.

More stories as I dredge them up from my addled memory.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Robert Swierczek]

>>>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>>>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>>>
>>> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
>>> it, somewhere.
>>
>> That would be wonderful, but I would really like to bring that
>> software back to life again.  Does anyone know of an inexpensive and
>> non-labor intensive solution to this?  I imagine a fanfold printout
>> should be fairly easy to scan given the proper scanner.  I don't know
>> how or if the scanner should be taken to Alec's printout or
>> visa-versa.
>
> Yes, a full duplex ADF scanner, like the Fujitsu fi-4530 I own, can do it,
> but you would need to guillotine off the perforations (take it around to
> your local printer, who has the right guillotine).

Heck, I would settle for a decent camera on a tripod and a well lit
flat surface you can drape the printout over, then take a video as the
source scrolls by.
OK, maybe that is worst case, but isn't there an easy solution that
does not include cutting anything (those fanfold binder covers can be
easily dis/re-assembled.)

[TUHS] A decision

[Josh Good]

On 2017 Apr  7, 15:25, ron minnich wrote:
> I agree with Warren's decision, but I think out of respect for Joerg this
> discussion ought to be taken off list.

I agree with that. Past this point, as Joerg has no access to refute
anything, nothing negative should be said here publicly about him.

Regards,

-- 
Josh Good

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Toby Thain]

On 2017-04-07 4:23 PM, Robert Swierczek wrote:
>>>>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>>>>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>>>>
>>>> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
>>>> it, somewhere.
>>>
>>> That would be wonderful, but I would really like to bring that
>>> software back to life again.  Does anyone know of an inexpensive and
>>> non-labor intensive solution to this?  I imagine a fanfold printout
>>> should be fairly easy to scan given the proper scanner.  I don't know
>>> how or if the scanner should be taken to Alec's printout or
>>> visa-versa.
>>
>> Yes, a full duplex ADF scanner, like the Fujitsu fi-4530 I own, can do it,
>> but you would need to guillotine off the perforations (take it around to
>> your local printer, who has the right guillotine).
>
> Heck, I would settle for a decent camera on a tripod and a well lit
> flat surface you can drape the printout over, then take a video as the
> source scrolls by.
> OK, maybe that is worst case, but isn't there an easy solution that
> does not include cutting anything (those fanfold binder covers can be
> easily dis/re-assembled.)
>

Yes, there's always SOME way to avoid it, but obviously significantly 
more work. Just depends what the priorities are... Preserving fanfold 
seems like a strange priority, wouldn't it be more practical bound 
book-like anyway?

Or, similar to your suggestion, load it into a compatible printer (so 
that it can be sprocket fed), with some kind of takeup spool, then form 
feed pages through, snapping each one between feeds.

--T

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Robert Swierczek]

>
> Yes, there's always SOME way to avoid it, but obviously significantly more
> work. Just depends what the priorities are... Preserving fanfold seems like
> a strange priority, wouldn't it be more practical bound book-like anyway?
>
> Or, similar to your suggestion, load it into a compatible printer (so that
> it can be sprocket fed), with some kind of takeup spool, then form feed
> pages through, snapping each one between feeds.
>

Fully agree!  If there is anything I can do to help get that online
(in whatever form) let me know.

Are there any other surviving examples of B code from that era in this
ballpark of complexity?

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Alec Muffett]

Before we get all complicated, I will go ask some people if they have the
source.  :-)

I was the first person to die on AberMUD, and that particular story is told
here:

  https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/alecm/abermud/README_HISTORY.HTML

...along with a walk-through of the room descriptions from that era, respun
as simple navigation through clickable room descriptions.

I didn't go into the topic of this because it seemed a little far off the
topic of "Unix", but if Warren will permit me a brief digression, some of
which many of you will be completely aware, but this is for posterity:

Over here in Europe the Internet was not king; instead the UK universities
were linked by X.25 networks, the hostnames were bigendian, and the
services often literally chargeable.

The UK academia network was JANET (Joint Academic NETwork) and - since
systems could not communicate with each other unless a godlike "Network
Manager" waved dead chickens over them in arcane ceremonies - the students
wrote, and then advertised, samizdat style, the addresses and login
credentials for various "Bulletin Boards" which they would log into and
share messages.

Onesuch was University College London (UCL) "Bullet", run by myself, Rob
Newsom, and Steve Usher, at UCL.

Steve keeps a copy of Bullet running even today, the history and details
are at: https://www.earth.ox.ac.uk/~steve/bullet.html

At Aberystwyth - where I got a job after graduation, having hacked it
quietly but extensively - was Honeyboard, running on the previously
mentioned L66 under GCOS-3.  Authors: Alan Cox (of Linux fame)

Both Bullet & Honeyboard had "message boards" (cf: single-host USENET) and
"talkers" (group chat & private messaging) - the irony was that Bullet was
meant to be a MUD but turned into a Bulletin board, whereas Honeyboard was
a bulletin board which turned into a MUD - AberMUD.

In the latter case: "descriptions" (flat files, named by channel number)
were added as augmentation to numbered "talker channels", and the files
were given annotations ("#DEATH" - kills people on entry, logs them out) in
rooms with special features; then a basic action parser was hacked into the
chat system; the rest of *that* story is in the README_HISTORY.HTML link,
above.

Honeyboard became AberMUD, got enhanced with a lot of cleanup, then got
shared, and - this is where I get hazy - Rich $alz got a copy, reworked a
bunch of code (ported to C at this point? Or maybe earlier) and it got
posted to USENET... and the rest is more well-known history.

I'll send this now, and then forward the e-mail around some friends to see
if the source is extant.

    - alec


* footnote: we shared addresses of BBSes samizdat style amongst friends;
one very popular place to do that was Essex MUD, the source code for which
is upstream.  A TOPS-10 system, it permitted access to players from (IIRC)
2am until 7am on weekdays, plus extensions on weekends.  I lost a lot of
sleep that way.
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[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Steve Johnson]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2195 bytes --]

At AT&T, the evolution from B to C was quite smooth, as was the
evolution of C itself.   Most B programs were converted to "nb" (the
first C incarnation) by hacking on the character strings and putting
in some types where needed.   It wasn't a big deal.  So I'd be
surprised if there were substantial B programs that survived.

One lesson learned that I've never forgotten is how smooth it is to
evolve a language using the following process:

	* Announce that the change is coming and explain why
	* Change the compiler to accept both the old and new syntax
	* Produce a simple warning message when the old syntax was used, but
make it still work
	* Produce a more complicated, verbose message, but still make it work
	* Produce a message that says "After date xxxx, the old stuff won't
work any more"
	* On the date, change the warning to fatal, but keep recognizing the
old syntax and emit "Error: You used the old xxx, change to the new
one"
	* Eventually, stop recognizing the old syntax and remove the message.

	Dennis was a master at this strategy, so things like the otherwise
painful evolution of changing =+ to += went well.
Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Swierczek" <rmswierczek@gmail.com>
To:"Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
Cc:<tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent:Fri, 7 Apr 2017 17:51:03 -0400
Subject:Re: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

 >
 > Yes, there's always SOME way to avoid it, but obviously
significantly more
 > work. Just depends what the priorities are... Preserving fanfold
seems like
 > a strange priority, wouldn't it be more practical bound book-like
anyway?
 >
 > Or, similar to your suggestion, load it into a compatible printer
(so that
 > it can be sprocket fed), with some kind of takeup spool, then form
feed
 > pages through, snapping each one between feeds.
 >

 Fully agree! If there is anything I can do to help get that online
 (in whatever form) let me know.

 Are there any other surviving examples of B code from that era in
this
 ballpark of complexity?

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[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Larry McVoy]

On Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 03:08:48PM -0700, Steve Johnson wrote:
> One lesson learned that I've never forgotten is how smooth it is to
> evolve a language using the following process:
> 
> 	* Announce that the change is coming and explain why
> 	* Change the compiler to accept both the old and new syntax
> 	* Produce a simple warning message when the old syntax was used, but
> make it still work
> 	* Produce a more complicated, verbose message, but still make it work
> 	* Produce a message that says "After date xxxx, the old stuff won't
> work any more"
> 	* On the date, change the warning to fatal, but keep recognizing the
> old syntax and emit "Error: You used the old xxx, change to the new
> one"
> 	* Eventually, stop recognizing the old syntax and remove the message.
> 
> 	Dennis was a master at this strategy, so things like the otherwise
> painful evolution of changing =+ to += went well.

That's interesting that that sort of thing dates back (at least) to the 
Labs.  

We did a distributed source management system which has

	- a file format (I can think of 3 different major versions)
	- a network protocol (also had major revisions)
	- various per repository features

All that started back in 1998 and we were extremely good about backwards
compatibility.

That said, we eventually had too many things to be compat with and we
took the approach of supporting 

	- our original ascii file format which was SCCS compat plus extensions
	- our original (once stable) network protocol
and
	- our latest and greatest stuff

Every version of the software supports a 

	bk clone --downgrade repo repo.old

which gets you back to the old ascii format, and then there is a

	bk clone --upgrade repo.old repo

which gets you to the latest and greatest.

What did this buy us?  We only had two targets, the original (not moving)
formats and the latest and greatest.  If you had some halfway repo you 
could use the old release to clone it down to the old format and the new
release to clone it forward to the latest and greatest.

It worked really, really well.  

Sort of off topic but thought I'd share, I wish someone had told me this
picture when we started, especially the feature bit idea (which was that
if a repo uses some optional feature you stuck that on disk.  If all 
versions of the software know to read in the feature bits, see if they
know all of them, if not, spit out "This repo uses feature XYZ which is
not understood by this version of BitKeeper".  We called them bits, they
were actually strings, but internally they were bits).

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Lawrence Stewart]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2258 bytes --]


> On 2017, Apr 7, at 4:53 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> 
> On 2017-04-07 4:23 PM, Robert Swierczek wrote:
>>>>>> Yes!  I am very much interesting in getting my eyes on that early B
>>>>>> version of AberMUD (and any other B code for that matter.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's a few inches thick, I'll dig it out and post sample code photos from
>>>>> it, somewhere.
>>>> 
>>>> That would be wonderful, but I would really like to bring that
>>>> software back to life again.  Does anyone know of an inexpensive and
>>>> non-labor intensive solution to this?  I imagine a fanfold printout
>>>> should be fairly easy to scan given the proper scanner.  I don't know
>>>> how or if the scanner should be taken to Alec's printout or
>>>> visa-versa.
>>> 
>>> Yes, a full duplex ADF scanner, like the Fujitsu fi-4530 I own, can do it,
>>> but you would need to guillotine off the perforations (take it around to
>>> your local printer, who has the right guillotine).
>> 
>> Heck, I would settle for a decent camera on a tripod and a well lit
>> flat surface you can drape the printout over, then take a video as the
>> source scrolls by.
>> OK, maybe that is worst case, but isn't there an easy solution that
>> does not include cutting anything (those fanfold binder covers can be
>> easily dis/re-assembled.)
>> 
> 
> Yes, there's always SOME way to avoid it, but obviously significantly more work. Just depends what the priorities are... Preserving fanfold seems like a strange priority, wouldn't it be more practical bound book-like anyway?
> 
> Or, similar to your suggestion, load it into a compatible printer (so that it can be sprocket fed), with some kind of takeup spool, then form feed pages through, snapping each one between feeds.
> 
> —T

Adapt the panorama mode of a camera to work when you pull the paper past its view?

This reminds me of a tale.  At my MIT lab around 1975 we had a Xerox 3100 (maybe?) copier we used to copy 11x17 hardware schematics.  It pulled the original and output paper, slightly offset, past opposite sides of the image drum.  I don’t know what possessed me to try it, but I found it would continuously copy fad-fold printer output onto fan-fanold paper, while advancing the copy counter only once.

-L

[TUHS] A decision

[Michaelian Ennis]

Thanks for bringing that up, Ron. Warren, thank you for maintaining this list.

Ian

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Random832]

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017, at 12:09, Alec Muffett wrote:
> I've posted a few images at https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714
> 
> Username "iy7" spattered around the text, was Alan Cox.
> 
> I suppose the most notable thing is use of asterisk, where C coders would
> expect backslash?  And the lack of types.

Are those BASIC-style line numbers?

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Alec Muffett]

On 9 April 2017 at 07:34, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:

> > I've posted a few images at https://dropsafe.crypticide.co
> m/article/12714
> > Username "iy7" spattered around the text, was Alan Cox.
> >
> > I suppose the most notable thing is use of asterisk, where C coders would
> > expect backslash?  And the lack of types.
>
> Are those BASIC-style line numbers?
>

I honestly can't remember; I think it was the Aberystwyth sysadmin (Rob
Ash) who write a B prettifier (the cited BTIDY) but I can't remember
whether B as a language used/ignored line numbers, or if this was just a
prettyprint thing.

There are mentions of line numbers in https://www.bell-labs.com/
usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf so perhaps they are a compiler convenience for
diagnostics?

    -a
-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
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[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Toby Thain]

On 2017-04-09 7:03 AM, Alec Muffett wrote:
>
> On 9 April 2017 at 07:34, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com
> <mailto:random832 at fastmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     > I've posted a few images at https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714
>     <https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714>
>     > Username "iy7" spattered around the text, was Alan Cox.
>     >
>     > I suppose the most notable thing is use of asterisk, where C coders would
>     > expect backslash?  And the lack of types.
>
>     Are those BASIC-style line numbers?
>
>
> I honestly can't remember; I think it was the Aberystwyth sysadmin (Rob
> Ash) who write a B prettifier (the cited BTIDY) but I can't remember
> whether B as a language used/ignored line numbers, or if this was just a
> prettyprint thing.

Looks like something added in printing and not in the source. 
Mercifully, B doesn't use line numbers.

--T

>
> There are mentions of line numbers
> in https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf
> <https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf> so perhaps they are a
> compiler convenience for diagnostics?
>
>     -a
> --
> http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm
> <http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm>

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Random832]

On Sun, Apr 9, 2017, at 12:57, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2017-04-09 7:03 AM, Alec Muffett wrote:
> > I honestly can't remember; I think it was the Aberystwyth sysadmin (Rob
> > Ash) who write a B prettifier (the cited BTIDY) but I can't remember
> > whether B as a language used/ignored line numbers, or if this was just a
> > prettyprint thing.
> 
> Looks like something added in printing and not in the source. 
> Mercifully, B doesn't use line numbers.

The fact that they're not on every line and increment by 10 is what made
me think of BASIC.

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Steve Johnson]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2137 bytes --]

My memory is clearly that B did not use line numbers.   However, it
did report line numbers for errors.  The 'ed' command had an 'n'
command that would number the lines of the file -- I think this was a
result of an early customer for Unix being the patent department -- at
the time, patents had to have exactly 50 lines on each page with no
blanks and the lines had to be numbered...   When writing about a
program, it was handy to include line numbers so the document could
refer more easily to lines in the program, but they weren't fed to the
compiler.

Steve

(Funny how this conversation makes me feel like one of a few surviving
members of a tribe speaking a soon to be dead language...)
  

----- Original Message -----
From:
 "Alec Muffett" <alec.muffett at gmail.com>

To:
"Random832" <random832 at fastmail.com>
Cc:
<tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent:
Sun, 9 Apr 2017 12:03:13 +0100
Subject:
Re: [TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

On 9 April 2017 at 07:34, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com [1]>
 wrote:
> I've posted a few images at
https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714 [2]
> Username "iy7" spattered around the text, was Alan Cox.
 >
 > I suppose the most notable thing is use of asterisk, where C coders
would
 > expect backslash?  And the lack of types.

Are those BASIC-style line numbers?

I honestly can't remember; I think it was the Aberystwyth sysadmin
(Rob Ash) who write a B prettifier (the cited BTIDY) but I can't
remember whether B as a language used/ignored line numbers, or if this
was just a prettyprint thing.

There are mentions of line numbers
in https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf [3] so perhaps they
are a compiler convenience for diagnostics?

    -a
-- 
http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm [4]

 

Links:
------
[1] mailto:random832 at fastmail.com
[2] https://dropsafe.crypticide.com/article/12714
[3] https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf
[4] http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm

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[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Robert Swierczek]

> (Funny how this conversation makes me feel like one of a few surviving
> members of a tribe speaking a soon to be dead language...)

I think there is a beautiful simplicity to B code as a high level
assembler or universal machine language.  The lack of types is closer
to the machine since a CPU generally does not enforce types on memory
or register cells.

Adding types to B (to create C) was an excellent design choice,
however another choice would have been to keep it type-less.  Operator
forms would explicitly encode the appropriate type (such as unsigned
right shift >>> in Java, or floating point add #+ in BCPL.)

Pointer dereference and increment symbols would also need size
annotation (perhaps char and word forms would suffice.)

It is interesting to ponder such a language as a universal target for
higher level language compilers, or as a specialized language for OS
and device driver development.<div
id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
	<tr>
        <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon"
target="_blank"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" /></a></td>
		<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
		</td>
	</tr>
</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1"></a></div>

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 9 Apr 2017, at 17:57, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> 
> Looks like something added in printing and not in the source. Mercifully, B doesn't use line numbers.

I think people perhaps forget how important line numbers were in hardcopy: in a world where you did a lot of work on a program by printing it out, then taking the printout to your desk, reading it and writing notes and new code on it (which was how almost everyone worked since terminals were a scarce resource), the line numbers on the printout where how you communicated the changes you wanted to make to yourself later on: if you'd changed line 53 on the printout you told the editor to go to line 53 and changed it.  If you didn't have line numbers on the printout then it was almost useless.

[TUHS] Non-US Unix Activities

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 10 Apr 2017, at 06:40, Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The lack of types is closer
> to the machine

It's not: it's further.  Languages like BCPL and B were fine for word-addressed machines which had really one type in the hardware, but modern machines are a seething mass of types: four or more integral types, two or more float types, at least.