[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Noel Chiappa]

    > SRI, UCSD, UCLA, Utah:

Ooops, typo: UCS_B_.

       Noel

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Dave Horsfall]

The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 (anyone know their 
names?); at least one "history" site reckoned the third node was connected 
in 1977 (and I'm still waiting for a reply to my correction).  Well, I can 
believe that perhaps there were only three left by then...

Hmmm...  According to my notes, the nodes were UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and Utah.

-- Dave

Re: [TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Clem Cole]

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That's correct.  Although it was 1969.   I just sent Dave the paper from
the IEEE Annals of History of Computing:   1058-6180/15   [2015] Called
'The Production and Interpretation of APRANET Maps" by Fidler and Currie
ᐧ

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 3:45 PM Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:

> The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 (anyone know their
> names?); at least one "history" site reckoned the third node was connected
> in 1977 (and I'm still waiting for a reply to my correction).  Well, I can
> believe that perhaps there were only three left by then...
>
> Hmmm...  According to my notes, the nodes were UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and Utah.
>
> -- Dave
>

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Re: [TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Clem Cole]

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BTW:  By Sept '73 there were ~20 IMPs and ~15 TIPs The total hosts was ~45
My March '74, the numbers had doubled.
ᐧ

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 3:50 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> That's correct.  Although it was 1969.   I just sent Dave the paper from
> the IEEE Annals of History of Computing:   1058-6180/15   [2015] Called
> 'The Production and Interpretation of APRANET Maps" by Fidler and Currie
> ᐧ
>
> On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 3:45 PM Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
>
>> The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 (anyone know their
>> names?); at least one "history" site reckoned the third node was
>> connected
>> in 1977 (and I'm still waiting for a reply to my correction).  Well, I
>> can
>> believe that perhaps there were only three left by then...
>>
>> Hmmm...  According to my notes, the nodes were UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and Utah.
>>
>> -- Dave
>>
>

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Re: [TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Well, I can believe that perhaps there were only three left by then...

Certainly not.

Re: [TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Jon Forrest]

On 12/4/2018 12:44 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> Hmmm...  According to my notes, the nodes were UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and
> Utah.

I had commented on the ARPAnet's presence at UCSB on this list
earlier. Back then, being on the ARPAnet didn't mean anything
like what being on the Internet means now. Back then, only
a few research groups had access to, or even knew about, the
ARPAnet. I didn't find out about it until I was a grad student
there in the late '70s even though I had been an undergrad
from 73-75.

Jon Forrest

Re: [TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Larry McVoy]

On Tue, Dec 04, 2018 at 02:06:46PM -0800, Jon Forrest wrote:
> On 12/4/2018 12:44 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> >Hmmm...  According to my notes, the nodes were UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and
> >Utah.
> 
> I had commented on the ARPAnet's presence at UCSB on this list
> earlier. Back then, being on the ARPAnet didn't mean anything
> like what being on the Internet means now. 

Has anyone put together a list of IMPs and dates in the order they were
added to the net?
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Jon Forrest

    > LBL has never been part of UC Berkeley. It's (always?) been a
    > Department of Energy laboratory managed by the Univ.

Actually, I think if you go back far enough (1930's), it was part of UCB,
back when Lawrence first started it.

And of course the DoE didn't exist until 1977, so during the early ARPANET
era if would have been under the AEC, and then I assume the Energy Research
and Development Administration after 1974 (I assume it didn't go with the NRC
when the AEC was split up).

	Noel

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Paul Ruizendaal]

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I don’t think anybody was thinking you wilfully misrepresented things,
it is always interesting to hear about strands of history that might
have been missed earlier.

It would be helpful to better understand the time period, people
involved and the scope of work.

I’m a bit confused as to what time period you are referring to: I
think you are referring to the initial development of Arpanet, i.e.
the second half of the sixties. Is that correct?

There is a page here with some info on events in that period and it
may have missed some interesting development work done at LBL:
https://www.livinginternet.com/i/ii_roberts.htm

Paul

> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 19:46:21 -0800
> From: Deborah Scherrer <dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu>
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
> Message-ID: <8254fc85-12e6-4730-8f14-faf060ad6a70 at solar.stanford.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
> Yes, Van Jacobson was involved.  Great guy.  So sorry you feel the need 
> to think I am lying.  Why would I make up this stuff?  I was a
> teeny tiny piece of it.  Doesn't affect my career one way or other.   I 
> don't care what you believe, but this really did happen.
> 
> D

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Paul Ruizendaal]

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This page:
http://www2.lbl.gov/Publications/75th/files/exhibit.html

mentions 3 links between LBL and Arpanet:

- In 1974, the Lab’s CDC 6600 became the first online supercomputer when it was connected to ARPANET, the Internet’s predecessor.

- In 1986, when the Internet was on the verge of collapse from congestion, a Berkeley Lab researcher, Van Jacobson, co-developed the congestion control algorithms that allowed the Internet to keep growing.

- In 1995, Jacobson and Steven McCanne developed MBone, the first successful software for multiparty audio and video conferencing over the Internet.

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Jon Forrest]

Another clarification - LBL has never been part of UC Berkeley. It's
(always?) been a Department of Energy laboratory managed by the Univ.
of California. On the other hand, many people, due the close proximity
of LBL to UC Berkeley, have appointments at both places so it can
be hard to recognize which place somebody was working at when certain
research was done. For example, both Van Jacobson and Steve McCanne
had affiliations with LBL and UC Berkeley.

Jon

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[William Cheswick]

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I really wonder how the CDC link worked.  The channels were electrically strange, and certainly not easily amenable to communicating with anything other than CDC controllers or perhaps a serial line through one of the front ends.

I did hear of a proposal at NADC around 1977 to try to hook into telnet and ftp from a CDC using some hack of the serial stuff.  The idea didn’t impress me: it would have taken a lot of hacking to get a kludge working.  It always took a lot to make CDC hardware play well with others.

> On 5Dec 2017, at 3:24 AM, Paul Ruizendaal <pnr at planet.nl> wrote:
> 
> - In 1974, the Lab’s CDC 6600 became the first online supercomputer when it was connected to ARPANET, the Internet’s predecessor.

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[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Deborah Scherrer

    > I don't know about the historical record. But everything I said is true,
    > based on my own personal experience. ... I was there, this happened.  If
    > people didn't write it down, I don't know why.

FWIW, I was actually at many of those meetings. (You can find my name in a lot
of those Meeting Notes.) Nobody from LBL, or UCB in general, was involved -
and the Meeting Notes (which, you will note, are quite detailed) indicate the
same thing.

(Later on, of course, Van Jacobson of LBL did some imporant work on TCP
congestion control, but that was in '87 or so - I can't instantly lay my hands
on my copy of Van's famous e-mail, to get a more exact date - some years after
the full-scale deployment of TCP/IP in January, 1983.)

    > Why would I misrepresent?   

Perhaps you are conflating several different things in your memory? Human
memory is very fallible, which is why historians prefer contemporary documents
(and even those sometimes have errors). Here:

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/nontech/tmlotus.html

is a mildly amusing example (from a completely different arena) of all that.

   Noel

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Deborah Scherrer]

Yes, Van Jacobson was involved.  Great guy.  So sorry you feel the need 
to think I am lying.  Why would I make up this stuff?  I was a
teeny tiny piece of it.  Doesn't affect my career one way or other.   I 
don't care what you believe, but this really did happen.

D



On 12/4/17 7:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Deborah Scherrer
>
>      > I don't know about the historical record. But everything I said is true,
>      > based on my own personal experience. ... I was there, this happened.  If
>      > people didn't write it down, I don't know why.
>
> FWIW, I was actually at many of those meetings. (You can find my name in a lot
> of those Meeting Notes.) Nobody from LBL, or UCB in general, was involved -
> and the Meeting Notes (which, you will note, are quite detailed) indicate the
> same thing.
>
> (Later on, of course, Van Jacobson of LBL did some imporant work on TCP
> congestion control, but that was in '87 or so - I can't instantly lay my hands
> on my copy of Van's famous e-mail, to get a more exact date - some years after
> the full-scale deployment of TCP/IP in January, 1983.)
>
>      > Why would I misrepresent?
>
> Perhaps you are conflating several different things in your memory? Human
> memory is very fallible, which is why historians prefer contemporary documents
> (and even those sometimes have errors). Here:
>
>    http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/nontech/tmlotus.html
>
> is a mildly amusing example (from a completely different arena) of all that.
>
>     Noel

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Dan Cross]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 10:46 PM, Deborah Scherrer <
dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu> wrote:

> [...] So sorry you feel the need to think I am lying. [...]


I don't think anyone is suggesting that anyone else is lying. People can
make mistakes (one way or another) without it being a lie.

        - Dan C.
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[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Deborah Scherrer <dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu>

    >  A lot of the TCP/IP development was done at the Lab.

I think this is incorrect. The "Birth of the Internet" plaque:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/history/BirthInternetL.jpg

mentions a number of organizations, but not UCB.

Also, if you look at early TCP/IP Meeting Notes, which list all the meeting
attendees, e.g.:

  http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien3.txt
  http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien121.txt
  http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien134.txt
  http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien121.txt
  http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien160.txt
  http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien175.txt

(plus a bunch more only available in PDF form here:

  http://www.postel.org/ien/pdf
  
which I couldn't be bothered to look at, since they are huge scans which take
a while to download - see the IEN Index for the numbers) you won't find anyone
from UCB listed in any of them.

Berkeley did produce a now-common _implementation_ of TCP/IP, it's true, but
it had nothing to do with the "development" of TCP/IP.

	Noel

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Deborah Scherrer]

I don't know about the historical record.  But everything I said is 
true, based on my own personal experience.
Why would I misrepresent?   I was there, this happened.  If people 
didn't write it down, I don't know why.
D

On 12/4/17 6:52 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Deborah Scherrer <dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu>
>
>      >  A lot of the TCP/IP development was done at the Lab.
>
> I think this is incorrect. The "Birth of the Internet" plaque:
>
>    http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/history/BirthInternetL.jpg
>
> mentions a number of organizations, but not UCB.
>
> Also, if you look at early TCP/IP Meeting Notes, which list all the meeting
> attendees, e.g.:
>
>    http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien3.txt
>    http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien121.txt
>    http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien134.txt
>    http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien121.txt
>    http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien160.txt
>    http://www.postel.org/ien/txt/ien175.txt
>
> (plus a bunch more only available in PDF form here:
>
>    http://www.postel.org/ien/pdf
>    
> which I couldn't be bothered to look at, since they are huge scans which take
> a while to download - see the IEN Index for the numbers) you won't find anyone
> from UCB listed in any of them.
>
> Berkeley did produce a now-common _implementation_ of TCP/IP, it's true, but
> it had nothing to do with the "development" of TCP/IP.
>
> 	Noel

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Deborah Scherrer

    > the initial research on the arpanet was done at Lawrence Berkeley Lab

I was interested to find out more about this: I looked in Hafner, "Where
Wizards Stay Up Late" (the popular, but well-researched, book on the ARPANET)
but couldn't find 'Lawrence Berkeley' or 'LBL' in the index (although it did
have Lawrence Livermore); there were a couple of 'Californa, University of (at
Berkeley' listings, but none covered this. In Abbate, "Inventing the Internet"
(the first half of which covers the ARPANET), nothing under any of 'Lawrence
Berkeley', 'LBL', 'Berkeley' or 'California'.

In Norberg/O'Neill, "Transforming Computer Technology" (the standard ARPA
history, which has extensive coverage of the ARPANET project), there was one
entry for 'Californa, University (Berkeley)', which might be about the work
you refer to:

  "IPTO issued a contract for a 'network' project at the Berkeley campus of
  the University of California ... because of the presence at Berkeley of
  specialists in programming languages and heuristic programming".

But there's nothing about what was produced. Is there anything you can point
me at that provides more detail? Thanks!

   Noel

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Deborah Scherrer]

LBL was part of UC Berkeley.  We were funded by DOE, who was working 
with DARPA.  But we were UC employees.  LBL had a contract with
DOE/DARPA to evaluate an early version of the the arpanet.  I was just 
getting started at that time, so only slightly involved.  The people I 
remember were Dennis Hall, Joe Sventek, Carl Quong & several other guys 
in EE.  A lot of the TCP/IP development was done at the Lab.

We also worked heavily with the CS people on campus.  I think this was 
before Kirk McKusick, Bill Joy, et al.

Debbie

On 12/4/17 5:05 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Deborah Scherrer
>
>      > the initial research on the arpanet was done at Lawrence Berkeley Lab
>
> I was interested to find out more about this: I looked in Hafner, "Where
> Wizards Stay Up Late" (the popular, but well-researched, book on the ARPANET)
> but couldn't find 'Lawrence Berkeley' or 'LBL' in the index (although it did
> have Lawrence Livermore); there were a couple of 'Californa, University of (at
> Berkeley' listings, but none covered this. In Abbate, "Inventing the Internet"
> (the first half of which covers the ARPANET), nothing under any of 'Lawrence
> Berkeley', 'LBL', 'Berkeley' or 'California'.
>
> In Norberg/O'Neill, "Transforming Computer Technology" (the standard ARPA
> history, which has extensive coverage of the ARPANET project), there was one
> entry for 'Californa, University (Berkeley)', which might be about the work
> you refer to:
>
>    "IPTO issued a contract for a 'network' project at the Berkeley campus of
>    the University of California ... because of the presence at Berkeley of
>    specialists in programming languages and heuristic programming".
>
> But there's nothing about what was produced. Is there anything you can point
> me at that provides more detail? Thanks!
>
>     Noel

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Jon Forrest]

On 12/4/2017 5:05 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Deborah Scherrer
> 
>      > the initial research on the arpanet was done at Lawrence Berkeley Lab

I'm also skeptical about this claim, although it could depend on
what "initial research" means. I believe LBL did work on early TCP
implementations, the conversion from NCP to TCP, and the early "software
tools" movement. (I was there for a year in 1988 and had the office next
to Cliff Stoll when he was doing the Cookoo's Egg work, but that's
another story).

Jon

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Deborah Scherrer]

This was looooong before Cliff Stoll.  I worked at LBL for 14 years, in 
the Computer Science & Applied Math (CSAM) group.   Don't remember the 
exact dates this was happening, but something like late 60s - early 
70s.   I remember discussing with Dennis Hall the report back to DARPA 
that emphasized no value for data transfer but high value for 
communications.   (Unfortunately, Dennis is gone now.) We even had a 
"demonstration" for DARPA.  However, the nodes we needed in a couple 
places weren't in those places yet, so we "simulated" a response by 
having something in, say, San Francisco receive an internet request, 
read it with their eyes, then type in a response.  ;-)    At least DARPA 
folks were told this was a simulation.

Deborah

On 12/4/17 5:38 PM, Jon Forrest wrote:
>
>
> On 12/4/2017 5:05 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>      > From: Deborah Scherrer
>>
>>      > the initial research on the arpanet was done at Lawrence 
>> Berkeley Lab
>
> I'm also skeptical about this claim, although it could depend on
> what "initial research" means. I believe LBL did work on early TCP
> implementations, the conversion from NCP to TCP, and the early "software
> tools" movement. (I was there for a year in 1988 and had the office next
> to Cliff Stoll when he was doing the Cookoo's Egg work, but that's
> another story).
>
> Jon
>

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Dave Horsfall

    > The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 (anyone know which?)

SRI, UCSD, UCLA, Utah:

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpageo.html

All West Coast, plus Utah. Next was BBN; if you look at the IMP numbers, in
HOSTS.TXT, they were assigned in order of installation.

    > at least one "history" site reckoned the third node was connected in
    > 1977 ...  Well, I can believe that perhaps there were only three left by
    > then...

No:

   http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpalog.html

1977 was not too many years before the peak in size (with the MILNET split
coming in October, 1983). Per:

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpanet.html

"Prior to the split, in 1983, there were 113 IMPs in the ARPANET; after the
ARPANET/MILNET split, the MILNET consisted of 65 nodes, leaving the ARPANET
with 68 nodes."

     Noel

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Dave Horsfall]

The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 (anyone know which?); 
at least one "history" site reckoned the third node was connected in 1977 
(and I'm still waiting for a reply to my correction).  Well, I can believe 
that perhaps there were only three left by then...

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Jon Forrest]

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On 12/4/2017 3:06 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 (anyone know which?); 
> at least one "history" site reckoned the third node was connected in 
> 1977 (and I'm still waiting for a reply to my correction).  Well, I can 
> believe that perhaps there were only three left by then...

One of the original 4 was my Alma Mater, UC Santa Barbara. I can
say that even though it was one of the first four, its presence wasn't
well known and nobody outside a select few in EE knew it was there.

Jon Forrest

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Deborah Scherrer]

Don't know about nodes, but the initial research on the arpanet was done 
at Lawrence Berkeley Lab.  The primary goal of the project
was for scientists to share data.  But, alas, the scientists didn't want 
to share data.  And, there were so many data formats that
nobody could read each other's anyway.  So we ranked the arpanet as a 
failure for that item.  However, we found that it seemed
to be incredibly useful for communications amongst people, i.e. email...

Debbie

On 12/4/17 3:14 PM, Jon Forrest wrote:
>
>
> On 12/4/2017 3:06 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 (anyone know 
>> which?); at least one "history" site reckoned the third node was 
>> connected in 1977 (and I'm still waiting for a reply to my 
>> correction).  Well, I can believe that perhaps there were only three 
>> left by then...
>
> One of the original 4 was my Alma Mater, UC Santa Barbara. I can
> say that even though it was one of the first four, its presence wasn't
> well known and nobody outside a select few in EE knew it was there.
>
> Jon Forrest
>

[TUHS] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

[Dave Horsfall]

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 (anyone know which?) 
> [...]

Well, that sure as hell started a shit-storm; not my intention, of course.

Anyway, thanks for all the corrections; I don't want to be a party to 
spreading misinformation (I see enough of it as it is).

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."