* [TUHS] Typesetter C compiler @ 2023-02-02 19:02 Noel Chiappa 2023-02-02 21:57 ` [TUHS] " Jonathan Gray 2023-02-02 22:36 ` [TUHS] Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) Dan Cross 0 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Noel Chiappa @ 2023-02-02 19:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs; +Cc: jnc There was recent discussion here about the Typesetter C compiler; I don't have the energy to look through the tons of opinion posts about recent programming styles, to find the posts about actual Unix history which related to that compiler, but I seem to recall that there was interest in locating the source for it? I had strted to look, but then got distracted by some other high-pri stuff; here are a few notes that I had accumulated to reply - I hope they aren't too out-of-date by now. I have a copy of it, from the dump of the CSR machine (I can't make the whole dump public, sorry; it has personal material from a bunch of people mixed in). I was pretty sure the C compiler from Mini-Unix, here: https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=Mini-Unix/usr/source/c was from the right timeframe to be the Typesetter C, but a quick check of c0.h, shows that it's not; that one seems to be more like the V6 one. (Ditto for LSX.) The PWB1 one: https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=PWB1/sys/c/c seems, from a very quick look at c0.h (using that nice side-by-side compare feature on the TUHS archive - thanks, Warren!), to be somewhat close to the Typesetter C. It would be interesting to compare that one to the CSR one (which definitely is) to be sure. Also, the V7 C compiler (not pcc, but the PDP-11 one) seems to be a fairly close relative, too. Noel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Typesetter C compiler 2023-02-02 19:02 [TUHS] Typesetter C compiler Noel Chiappa @ 2023-02-02 21:57 ` Jonathan Gray 2023-02-03 0:43 ` Jonathan Gray 2023-02-02 22:36 ` [TUHS] Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) Dan Cross 1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Gray @ 2023-02-02 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: tuhs On Thu, Feb 02, 2023 at 02:02:32PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > There was recent discussion here about the Typesetter C compiler; I don't > have the energy to look through the tons of opinion posts about recent > programming styles, to find the posts about actual Unix history which related > to that compiler, but I seem to recall that there was interest in locating > the source for it? I had strted to look, but then got distracted by some > other high-pri stuff; here are a few notes that I had accumulated to reply - > I hope they aren't too out-of-date by now. > > I have a copy of it, from the dump of the CSR machine (I can't make the whole > dump public, sorry; it has personal material from a bunch of people mixed in). discussed in https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2023-January/027393.html The best case would be a copy of the tape that was licensed and distributed externally. With nroff/troff/ar/stdio. > > I was pretty sure the C compiler from Mini-Unix, here: > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=Mini-Unix/usr/source/c > > was from the right timeframe to be the Typesetter C, but a quick check of > c0.h, shows that it's not; that one seems to be more like the V6 one. (Ditto > for LSX.) > > The PWB1 one: > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=PWB1/sys/c/c > > seems, from a very quick look at c0.h (using that nice side-by-side compare > feature on the TUHS archive - thanks, Warren!), to be somewhat close to the > Typesetter C. It would be interesting to compare that one to the CSR one > (which definitely is) to be sure. Yes, PWB/UNIX 1.0, AUSAM where READ_ME includes: "the 'C' compiler contained herein is not merely a local abheration of 'C' but is in fact a version from bell labs via indirect means the lanuage accepted by this 'C' would is identical to that accepted by the 'C' compiler distributed with PWB/UNIX also corresponds to syntax given in Kernigan and Plaugher's book on 'C'" the Interdata 7/32 tree in modified form and binaries in Tim_Shoppa_v6/unix_v6.rl02.gz as you described in http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/ImprovingV6.html Compared to v6 the phototypesetter compiler adds: unsigned union typedef. The v7 compiler included enums and structure assignment described in "Recent Changes to C" November 15, 1978 https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/cchanges.pdf 2bsd includes diffs for it upgrade/c/READ_ME: "Mon Apr 16 23:33:04 PST 1979 The C compiler modifications here given as diffs will change a phototypesetter C compiler to have a larger symbol table (change to c0.h) and to generate switch code in I space (c11.c). We install the changed C compiler as -t0 and -t1; see the source for cc.c. You need make a modified C compiler only if you intend to recompile ex (-t0) or if you wish to compile with smaller data spaces per user; all code will work fine without -t1, and all programs but ex will compile with normal symbol table size." and refers to it in src/ex: /* * Since the phototypesetter v7-epsilon * C compiler doesn't have structure assignment... */ /* * Would like to use structured assignment but early * v7 compiler (released with phototypesetter for v6) * can't hack it. */ > > Also, the V7 C compiler (not pcc, but the PDP-11 one) seems to be a fairly > close relative, too. > > Noel > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Typesetter C compiler 2023-02-02 21:57 ` [TUHS] " Jonathan Gray @ 2023-02-03 0:43 ` Jonathan Gray 0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Jonathan Gray @ 2023-02-03 0:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: tuhs On Fri, Feb 03, 2023 at 08:57:14AM +1100, Jonathan Gray wrote: > On Thu, Feb 02, 2023 at 02:02:32PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > > There was recent discussion here about the Typesetter C compiler; I don't > > have the energy to look through the tons of opinion posts about recent > > programming styles, to find the posts about actual Unix history which related > > to that compiler, but I seem to recall that there was interest in locating > > the source for it? I had strted to look, but then got distracted by some > > other high-pri stuff; here are a few notes that I had accumulated to reply - > > I hope they aren't too out-of-date by now. > > > > I have a copy of it, from the dump of the CSR machine (I can't make the whole > > dump public, sorry; it has personal material from a bunch of people mixed in). > > discussed in > https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2023-January/027393.html > > The best case would be a copy of the tape that was licensed and > distributed externally. With nroff/troff/ar/stdio. > > > > > I was pretty sure the C compiler from Mini-Unix, here: > > > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=Mini-Unix/usr/source/c > > > > was from the right timeframe to be the Typesetter C, but a quick check of > > c0.h, shows that it's not; that one seems to be more like the V6 one. (Ditto > > for LSX.) > > > > The PWB1 one: > > > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=PWB1/sys/c/c > > > > seems, from a very quick look at c0.h (using that nice side-by-side compare > > feature on the TUHS archive - thanks, Warren!), to be somewhat close to the > > Typesetter C. It would be interesting to compare that one to the CSR one > > (which definitely is) to be sure. > > Yes, PWB/UNIX 1.0, AUSAM where READ_ME includes: > "the 'C' compiler contained herein is > not merely a local abheration of > 'C' but is in fact a version from bell > labs via indirect means > the lanuage accepted by this 'C' > would is identical to that accepted by the 'C' > compiler distributed with PWB/UNIX > also corresponds to syntax given in > Kernigan and Plaugher's book on 'C'" > > the Interdata 7/32 tree in modified form > > and binaries in Tim_Shoppa_v6/unix_v6.rl02.gz as you described in > http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/ImprovingV6.html > > Compared to v6 the phototypesetter compiler adds: > unsigned union typedef. > > The v7 compiler included enums and structure assignment > described in "Recent Changes to C" November 15, 1978 > https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/cchanges.pdf As you mentioned in https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2014-October/006834.html there is also a (Miller modified?) "New C Compiler Features" document https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=Interdata732/usr/doc/cdoc/newstuff.nr a different, earlier? version of this is "C Changes" https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=AUSAM/source/c_compiler/newstuff.doc another version of "C Changes" in https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=32V/usr/doc/ctour/newstuff the C Reference Manual, May 1, 1977 in Documents for the PWB/UNIX Time-Sharing System, Edition 1.0 https://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/unix/PWB_UNIX/Documents_for_the_PWB_UNIX_Time-Sharing_System_Edition_1.0_197710.pdf (44M) notes: "Warning: The data type name short is not recognized by the version of the C compiler that is distributed as part of PWB/UNIX Edition 1.0." but otherwise seems quite close to the C Reference Manual text in tuhs/Documentation/Books/Draft-KandR-C-Book.pdf ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-02 19:02 [TUHS] Typesetter C compiler Noel Chiappa 2023-02-02 21:57 ` [TUHS] " Jonathan Gray @ 2023-02-02 22:36 ` Dan Cross 2023-02-02 22:41 ` [TUHS] " Larry McVoy ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2023-02-02 22:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: TUHS On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 2:02 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote: > [snip] I don't > have the energy to look through the tons of opinion posts about recent > programming styles, to find the posts about actual Unix history which related > to that compiler, > [snip] On a semi-related note.... I have found TUHS a valuable resource, not just for discussing Unix history, but for gaining a deeper understanding of systems which informs my present and that I imagine will influence my future work as well. However, lately it has become clear that this is not always a welcome use of the list. I don't think COFF is universally appropriate for that either. So, the question becomes: what _is_ that forum, if such a thing exists at all? - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-02 22:36 ` [TUHS] Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) Dan Cross @ 2023-02-02 22:41 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-02 22:47 ` Jim Capp 2023-02-03 1:44 ` Dave Horsfall 2023-02-03 6:36 ` [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) Lars Brinkhoff 2 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-02 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: Noel Chiappa, TUHS On Thu, Feb 02, 2023 at 05:36:44PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 2:02 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote: > > [snip] I don't > > have the energy to look through the tons of opinion posts about recent > > programming styles, to find the posts about actual Unix history which related > > to that compiler, > > [snip] > > On a semi-related note.... > > I have found TUHS a valuable resource, not just for discussing Unix > history, but for gaining a deeper understanding of systems which > informs my present and that I imagine will influence my future work as > well. > > However, lately it has become clear that this is not always a welcome > use of the list. I don't think COFF is universally appropriate for > that either. COFF lacks critical mass. It's a common problem, you have a mailing list with enough people that it is interesting and it gets too noisy so the admin creates a more chatty list and only a small subset of the people pick that up. I don't know how to fix that. > So, the question becomes: what _is_ that forum, if such a thing exists at all? Well, Hacker News was supposed to be really system-y. I tried it for a while, there was some good stuff there but it was drowned out by wannabe hackers talking about trivial stuff as if it were interesting. So I gave up. If you find a Unix/Systems sort of forum, that actually has something to say, let us know. -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-02 22:41 ` [TUHS] " Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-02 22:47 ` Jim Capp 0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Jim Capp @ 2023-02-02 22:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: Noel Chiappa, TUHS I love the topics and people on TUHS. But I also subscribed to COFF so I could pick up on interesting scraps not suitable for TUHS. > On Feb 2, 2023, at 5:41 PM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 02, 2023 at 05:36:44PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: >>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 2:02 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote: >>> [snip] I don't >>> have the energy to look through the tons of opinion posts about recent >>> programming styles, to find the posts about actual Unix history which related >>> to that compiler, >>> [snip] >> >> On a semi-related note.... >> >> I have found TUHS a valuable resource, not just for discussing Unix >> history, but for gaining a deeper understanding of systems which >> informs my present and that I imagine will influence my future work as >> well. >> >> However, lately it has become clear that this is not always a welcome >> use of the list. I don't think COFF is universally appropriate for >> that either. > > COFF lacks critical mass. It's a common problem, you have a mailing list > with enough people that it is interesting and it gets too noisy so the > admin creates a more chatty list and only a small subset of the people > pick that up. I don't know how to fix that. > >> So, the question becomes: what _is_ that forum, if such a thing exists at all? > > Well, Hacker News was supposed to be really system-y. I tried it for a while, > there was some good stuff there but it was drowned out by wannabe hackers > talking about trivial stuff as if it were interesting. So I gave up. > > If you find a Unix/Systems sort of forum, that actually has something to > say, let us know. > -- > --- > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-02 22:36 ` [TUHS] Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) Dan Cross 2023-02-02 22:41 ` [TUHS] " Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-03 1:44 ` Dave Horsfall 2023-02-03 13:17 ` Alan D. Salewski 2023-02-03 14:11 ` Chet Ramey 2023-02-03 6:36 ` [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) Lars Brinkhoff 2 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Dave Horsfall @ 2023-02-03 1:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Thu, 2 Feb 2023, Dan Cross wrote: [...] > However, lately it has become clear that this is not always a welcome > use of the list. I don't think COFF is universally appropriate for that > either. As the perp responsible for the name "COFF", could I mayhaps suggest: Computer Retro Admin Perps ? Best I could do on the spur of the moment... > So, the question becomes: what _is_ that forum, if such a thing exists > at all? A new list? Social media is for the birds; Usenet is dead, film at 11. -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 1:44 ` Dave Horsfall @ 2023-02-03 13:17 ` Alan D. Salewski 2023-02-03 13:55 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-03 14:11 ` Chet Ramey 1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Alan D. Salewski @ 2023-02-03 13:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS (The Unix Heritage Society) On Thu, Feb 2, 2023, at 20:44, Dave Horsfall wrote: [...] > A new list? Social media is for the birds; Usenet is dead, film at 11. > > -- Dave Usenet is dead. Long live Usenet! -- a l a n d. s a l e w s k i ads@salewski.email salewski@att.net https://github.com/salewski ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 13:17 ` Alan D. Salewski @ 2023-02-03 13:55 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-06 20:02 ` Chris Hanson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-03 13:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alan D. Salewski; +Cc: TUHS (The Unix Heritage Society) On Fri, Feb 03, 2023 at 08:17:24AM -0500, Alan D. Salewski wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2023, at 20:44, Dave Horsfall wrote: > [...] > > A new list? Social media is for the birds; Usenet is dead, film at 11. > > > > -- Dave > > Usenet is dead. Long live Usenet! I do miss comp.* - that was pleasant, a bunch of technical places divided by topic. I had many a fine discussion in comp.arch. -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 13:55 ` Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-06 20:02 ` Chris Hanson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Chris Hanson @ 2023-02-06 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: Alan D. Salewski, TUHS (The Unix Heritage Society) On Feb 3, 2023, at 5:55 AM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > > I do miss comp.* - that was pleasant, a bunch of technical places divided > by topic. I had many a fine discussion in comp.arch. I still skim Usenet a few times a month, via eternal-september.org <http://eternal-september.org/>. There are still people posting to comp.* and related alt.* groups though not nearly as many as there once were. -- Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 1:44 ` Dave Horsfall 2023-02-03 13:17 ` Alan D. Salewski @ 2023-02-03 14:11 ` Chet Ramey 2023-02-03 14:15 ` Larry McVoy 1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Chet Ramey @ 2023-02-03 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Horsfall, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On 2/2/23 8:44 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote: >> So, the question becomes: what _is_ that forum, if such a thing exists >> at all? > > A new list? Social media is for the birds; Usenet is dead, film at 11. A new list, if it serves its purpose of providing interesting content, will eventually undergo the same thing. It's always going end up being some variant of Yogi Berra's famous "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 14:11 ` Chet Ramey @ 2023-02-03 14:15 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-03 16:39 ` Dan Cross 0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-03 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chet Ramey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Fri, Feb 03, 2023 at 09:11:35AM -0500, Chet Ramey wrote: > On 2/2/23 8:44 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote: > > >>So, the question becomes: what _is_ that forum, if such a thing exists > >>at all? > > > >A new list? Social media is for the birds; Usenet is dead, film at 11. > > A new list, if it serves its purpose of providing interesting content, will > eventually undergo the same thing. It's always going end up being some > variant of Yogi Berra's famous "nobody goes there anymore, it's too > crowded." In my opinion, Warren has been threading the needle nicely. He lets stuff go into the weeds a bit but has a pretty good sense of when it is annoying people that we all want to keep around. He's very understated about it all but he keeps this list pretty sane. If you haven't joined COFF, maybe consider it, if that got big enough then the other stuff could be done over there. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 14:15 ` Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-03 16:39 ` Dan Cross 2023-02-03 16:54 ` Larry McVoy ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2023-02-03 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 9:16 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > On Fri, Feb 03, 2023 at 09:11:35AM -0500, Chet Ramey wrote: > > On 2/2/23 8:44 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote: > > >>So, the question becomes: what _is_ that forum, if such a thing exists > > >>at all? > > > > > >A new list? Social media is for the birds; Usenet is dead, film at 11. > > > > A new list, if it serves its purpose of providing interesting content, will > > eventually undergo the same thing. It's always going end up being some > > variant of Yogi Berra's famous "nobody goes there anymore, it's too > > crowded." > > In my opinion, Warren has been threading the needle nicely. He lets stuff > go into the weeds a bit but has a pretty good sense of when it is annoying > people that we all want to keep around. He's very understated about it > all but he keeps this list pretty sane. > > If you haven't joined COFF, maybe consider it, if that got big enough > then the other stuff could be done over there. Some folks have given good suggestions, which I appreciate, but perhaps it would help to explain exactly what I'm looking for. I think that new system designs remain important, but without a historical perspective, they run the risk of repeating old mistakes, ignoring prior art, etc. Something I appreciate about TUHS is how one has access to so many of the key players in Unix as well as other systems: the perspective those people bring to the discussion is illuminating. But TUHS is clearly meant to be a Unix history list, not a "list about new systems where we can ask about history because that helps us build those new systems". In that sense, I'm not looking for COFF or a retro or classic computer list, either, but for something explicitly modern yet informed by history. I don't believe such a thing actually exists. - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 16:39 ` Dan Cross @ 2023-02-03 16:54 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-03 17:08 ` Dan Cross 2023-02-03 17:11 ` Steve Nickolas 2023-02-03 17:45 ` [TUHS] " Bakul Shah 2023-02-04 8:03 ` [TUHS] A List for New Systems Influenced by History. (Was: Proper use of TUHS) Ralph Corderoy 2 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-03 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Fri, Feb 03, 2023 at 11:39:38AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 9:16 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 03, 2023 at 09:11:35AM -0500, Chet Ramey wrote: > > > On 2/2/23 8:44 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote: > > > >>So, the question becomes: what _is_ that forum, if such a thing exists > > > >>at all? > > > > > > > >A new list? Social media is for the birds; Usenet is dead, film at 11. > > > > > > A new list, if it serves its purpose of providing interesting content, will > > > eventually undergo the same thing. It's always going end up being some > > > variant of Yogi Berra's famous "nobody goes there anymore, it's too > > > crowded." > > > > In my opinion, Warren has been threading the needle nicely. He lets stuff > > go into the weeds a bit but has a pretty good sense of when it is annoying > > people that we all want to keep around. He's very understated about it > > all but he keeps this list pretty sane. > > > > If you haven't joined COFF, maybe consider it, if that got big enough > > then the other stuff could be done over there. > > Some folks have given good suggestions, which I appreciate, but > perhaps it would help to explain exactly what I'm looking for. > > I think that new system designs remain important, but without a > historical perspective, they run the risk of repeating old mistakes, > ignoring prior art, etc. Something I appreciate about TUHS is how one > has access to so many of the key players in Unix as well as other > systems: the perspective those people bring to the discussion is > illuminating. > > But TUHS is clearly meant to be a Unix history list, not a "list about > new systems where we can ask about history because that helps us build > those new systems". In that sense, I'm not looking for COFF or a retro > or classic computer list, either, but for something explicitly modern > yet informed by history. Well, be careful listening to gray beards too much. Much of my knowledge comes from working with rotating disks and all of those instincts are wrong when you can get a 1TB SSD (Samsun no less) for $104 at Best Buy. The old guys who held sway in some of the jobs I had, fell into the trap of "we tried that and it didn't work". Well, yeah, trying to write AI programs in Prolog in 1985, yeah, that didn't work, the CPUs were nowhere near fast enough. Today we have machine learning that seems to work, self driving cars that sort of work, ChatGPT that literally scares me, the old rules don't apply. Some things will never go away, like keep your fingers off of my L1 cache lines. I think it's mostly lost because of huge memories, but one of the things I love about early Unix is how small everything was. Most people don't care, but if you want to go really fast, there is no replacement for small. Personally, I'm fine with some amount of "list about new systems where we can ask about history because that helps us build those new systems". Might be just me, I love systems discussions. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 16:54 ` Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-03 17:08 ` Dan Cross 2023-02-03 17:11 ` Steve Nickolas 1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2023-02-03 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 11:54 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > Well, be careful listening to gray beards too much. Hey now, my own beard has more grey than brown at this point. > [snip] > the old rules don't apply. That's precisely why I think it's important to think about new directions in systems. But there's so much reinvention of the square wheel, it at least makes sense to be _aware_ of the history. > [snip] > Personally, I'm fine with some amount of "list about new systems where > we can ask about history because that helps us build those new systems". > Might be just me, I love systems discussions. Agreed. But TUHS is not that list, I don't think. - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 16:54 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-03 17:08 ` Dan Cross @ 2023-02-03 17:11 ` Steve Nickolas 2023-02-03 17:26 ` [TUHS] move to COFF " Will Senn 1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Steve Nickolas @ 2023-02-03 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Fri, 3 Feb 2023, Larry McVoy wrote: > Some things will never go away, like keep your fingers off of my L1 > cache lines. I think it's mostly lost because of huge memories, but > one of the things I love about early Unix is how small everything was. > Most people don't care, but if you want to go really fast, there is no > replacement for small. > > Personally, I'm fine with some amount of "list about new systems where > we can ask about history because that helps us build those new systems". > Might be just me, I love systems discussions. I find a lot of my own stuff is like this - kindasorta fits and kindasorta doesn't for similar reasons. (Since a lot of what I've been doing lately is creating a SysV-flavored rewrite of Unix from my own perspective as a 40-something who actually got most of my experience coding for 16-bits and MS-DOS, and speaks fluent but non-native C. I'm sure it comes out in my coding style.) -uso. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] move to COFF Re: Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 17:11 ` Steve Nickolas @ 2023-02-03 17:26 ` Will Senn 2023-02-03 17:31 ` [TUHS] " Will Senn 0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Will Senn @ 2023-02-03 17:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs, COFF We're in COFF territory again. I am enjoying the conversation, but let's self monitor. Perhaps, a workflow for this is that when we drift off into non-unix history discussion, we cc: COFF and tell folks to continue there? As a test I cced it on this email, don't reply all to this list. Just let's talk about it over in coff. If you aren't on coff join it. If you aren't sure or think most folks on the list want to discuss it. Post it on COFF, if you don't get any traction, reference the COFF thread and tease it in TUHS. This isn't at all a gripe - I heart all of our discussions, but I agree that it's hard to keep it history related here with no outlet for tangential discussion - so, let's put coff to good use and try it for those related, but not quite discussions. Remember, don't reply to TUHS on this email :)! - will On 2/3/23 11:11 AM, Steve Nickolas wrote: > On Fri, 3 Feb 2023, Larry McVoy wrote: > >> Some things will never go away, like keep your fingers off of my L1 >> cache lines. I think it's mostly lost because of huge memories, but >> one of the things I love about early Unix is how small everything was. >> Most people don't care, but if you want to go really fast, there is no >> replacement for small. >> >> Personally, I'm fine with some amount of "list about new systems where >> we can ask about history because that helps us build those new systems". >> Might be just me, I love systems discussions. > > I find a lot of my own stuff is like this - kindasorta fits and > kindasorta doesn't for similar reasons. > > (Since a lot of what I've been doing lately is creating a > SysV-flavored rewrite of Unix from my own perspective as a > 40-something who actually got most of my experience coding for 16-bits > and MS-DOS, and speaks fluent but non-native C. I'm sure it comes out > in my coding style.) > > -uso. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: move to COFF Re: Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 17:26 ` [TUHS] move to COFF " Will Senn @ 2023-02-03 17:31 ` Will Senn 0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Will Senn @ 2023-02-03 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs, coff Oh, and of course I would cc the old address! Reply on the correct COFF address <coff@tuhs.org> Sheesh. On 2/3/23 11:26 AM, Will Senn wrote: > We're in COFF territory again. I am enjoying the conversation, but > let's self monitor. Perhaps, a workflow for this is that when we drift > off into non-unix history discussion, we cc: COFF and tell folks to > continue there? As a test I cced it on this email, don't reply all to > this list. Just let's talk about it over in coff. If you aren't on > coff join it. > > If you aren't sure or think most folks on the list want to discuss it. > Post it on COFF, if you don't get any traction, reference the COFF > thread and tease it in TUHS. > > This isn't at all a gripe - I heart all of our discussions, but I > agree that it's hard to keep it history related here with no outlet > for tangential discussion - so, let's put coff to good use and try it > for those related, but not quite discussions. > > Remember, don't reply to TUHS on this email :)! > > - will > > On 2/3/23 11:11 AM, Steve Nickolas wrote: >> On Fri, 3 Feb 2023, Larry McVoy wrote: >> >>> Some things will never go away, like keep your fingers off of my L1 >>> cache lines. I think it's mostly lost because of huge memories, but >>> one of the things I love about early Unix is how small everything was. >>> Most people don't care, but if you want to go really fast, there is no >>> replacement for small. >>> >>> Personally, I'm fine with some amount of "list about new systems where >>> we can ask about history because that helps us build those new >>> systems". >>> Might be just me, I love systems discussions. >> >> I find a lot of my own stuff is like this - kindasorta fits and >> kindasorta doesn't for similar reasons. >> >> (Since a lot of what I've been doing lately is creating a >> SysV-flavored rewrite of Unix from my own perspective as a >> 40-something who actually got most of my experience coding for >> 16-bits and MS-DOS, and speaks fluent but non-native C. I'm sure it >> comes out in my coding style.) >> >> -uso. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 16:39 ` Dan Cross 2023-02-03 16:54 ` Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-03 17:45 ` Bakul Shah 2023-02-05 10:42 ` steve jenkin 2023-02-04 8:03 ` [TUHS] A List for New Systems Influenced by History. (Was: Proper use of TUHS) Ralph Corderoy 2 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Bakul Shah @ 2023-02-03 17:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society On Feb 3, 2023, at 8:41 AM, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > > But TUHS is clearly meant to be a Unix history list, not a "list about > new systems where we can ask about history because that helps us build > those new systems". In that sense, I'm not looking for COFF or a retro > or classic computer list, either, but for something explicitly modern > yet informed by history. > > I don't believe such a thing actually exists. I’m not aware of one. May be comp.arch comes close. Any new list will have difficulty attracting the right kind of people. TUHS, COFF are rather unix oriented. If you mean *software systems*, I suspect the field is still too green to have a proper systematic analysis or established engineering principles. We still seem to be in the “Cambrian explosion” phase where every new complex system is a new species. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 17:45 ` [TUHS] " Bakul Shah @ 2023-02-05 10:42 ` steve jenkin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: steve jenkin @ 2023-02-05 10:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS; +Cc: Bakul Shah > On 4 Feb 2023, at 04:45, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > > We still seem to be in the “Cambrian explosion” phase > where every new complex system is a new species. You just perfectly described the computing world before 1965 & IBM’s 360. A range with 10x - 20x (? recall failure) of compatible models. This was repeated with microprocessors - at each ‘process step’, one clock frequency option for many years. Can’t recall who invented the range of CPU options we now have: server, desktop, laptop, tablet and ‘embedded’ Might’ve been two variants of 486, can’t recall. There was a tower of babel with Networking for decades, first the physical layer, then the packet layer, then network / protocol layer. We ended up with cat-5/6 twisted pair as the most common physical layer (with RJ-45’), async packets framed with Ethernet, running IP protocols over the network layer. “Internetwork” is a give away in the name “I.P.”. This, despite IBM & Microsoft’s (& others) considerable efforts otherwise. Mature markets require “Standard” parts / services, so consumers can mix-n-match as they wish. Standards facilitate “substitutes” & competition necessary to generate low-margin, high-volume commodity markets. By definition, commodity markets trade “fungible goods” destined for consumers. So many of these, hard to list. Standards - where manufacturers agree on common designs - only appear when manufacturers agree they’ve a common interest in building “volume”, not locking customers in. This happened very early with bipolar TTL logic. Smart phones are mostly Linux / Android, with Apple still able to sell non-commodity designs at premium prices. Remember Microsoft’s foray, via Nokia, into Mobiles? “Pocket PC” and “Windows Mobile” / Windows Phone: Crashed and burned. Even Nokia, then largest phone seller, with the proven Symbian O/S, failed against Android. -- Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] A List for New Systems Influenced by History. (Was: Proper use of TUHS) 2023-02-03 16:39 ` Dan Cross 2023-02-03 16:54 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-03 17:45 ` [TUHS] " Bakul Shah @ 2023-02-04 8:03 ` Ralph Corderoy 2023-02-04 13:56 ` [TUHS] " Larry McVoy 2 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Ralph Corderoy @ 2023-02-04 8:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Hi Dan, > a "list about new systems where we can ask about history because that > helps us build those new systems". https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff says The Computer Old Farts Forum provides a place for people to discuss the history of computers and their future. That seems to align well to me. Yet another list seems a bad idea; the interested parties would be spread more thinly. Just as a worldwide Usenet group was weakened when anyone could start a forum on a topic and many did. -- Cheers, Ralph. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: A List for New Systems Influenced by History. (Was: Proper use of TUHS) 2023-02-04 8:03 ` [TUHS] A List for New Systems Influenced by History. (Was: Proper use of TUHS) Ralph Corderoy @ 2023-02-04 13:56 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-04 17:31 ` [TUHS] Re: A List for New Systems Influenced by History Angel M Alganza 0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-04 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ralph Corderoy; +Cc: tuhs On Sat, Feb 04, 2023 at 08:03:20AM +0000, Ralph Corderoy wrote: > Hi Dan, > > > a "list about new systems where we can ask about history because that > > helps us build those new systems". > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff says > > The Computer Old Farts Forum provides a place for people to discuss > the history of computers and their future. > > That seems to align well to me. > > Yet another list seems a bad idea; the interested parties would be > spread more thinly. Just as a worldwide Usenet group was weakened when > anyone could start a forum on a topic and many did. Seems like the rest of the world, well, the good parts, need to learn about COFF. We need as much mass as we can get from tuhs and then we advertise on stackoverflow and hacker news and ? -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: A List for New Systems Influenced by History. 2023-02-04 13:56 ` [TUHS] " Larry McVoy @ 2023-02-04 17:31 ` Angel M Alganza 0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Angel M Alganza @ 2023-02-04 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 2023-02-04 14:56, Larry McVoy wrote: > We need as much mass as we can get from tuhs and then we > advertise on stackoverflow and hacker news and ? On nostr, maybe? There are tons of technical people there celebrating how cool it's having the same feelings they had 25-30 years ago when they discovered the Internet first, when it was still full of hope of being decentralized and free. I think tuhs and, probably even more, coff might be the perfect fit for them. Cheers, Ángel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-02 22:36 ` [TUHS] Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) Dan Cross 2023-02-02 22:41 ` [TUHS] " Larry McVoy 2023-02-03 1:44 ` Dave Horsfall @ 2023-02-03 6:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff 2023-02-04 22:38 ` Tomasz Rola 2 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2023-02-03 6:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: Noel Chiappa, TUHS Dan Cross wrote: > So, the question becomes: what _is_ that forum, if such a thing > exists at all? Some options: - Cctalk email list. - ClassicCMP Discord. - Retrocomputingforum.com. - Various Facebook groups. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) 2023-02-03 6:36 ` [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) Lars Brinkhoff @ 2023-02-04 22:38 ` Tomasz Rola 0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Tomasz Rola @ 2023-02-04 22:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS; +Cc: coff On Fri, Feb 03, 2023 at 06:36:34AM +0000, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Dan Cross wrote: > > So, the question becomes: what _is_ that forum, if such a thing > > exists at all? > > Some options: > > - Cctalk email list. (cc-ed to coff, of coffse...) I use to hang out on IBM-MAIN mailing list, too. While they are, mostly, dealing with modern mainframes and current problems, they also occasionally mention old story or two. Actually, since mainframe is such a living fossil thing, the whole talk sometimes feels as if it was about something upgraded continuously from the 1960-ties. Most of it is uncomprehensible to me (never had proper mainframe training, or unproper one, and they deal with stuff in unique way, have their own acronyms for things, there are some intro books but there is not enough time*energy), but also a bit educating - a bit today, a bit next week etc. > - ClassicCMP Discord. > - Retrocomputingforum.com. > - Various Facebook groups. Web stuff, requiring Javascript to work, ugh, ugh-oh. Mostly, it boils down to the fact that one cannot easily curl the text from those other places (AFAICT). So it is hard to awk this text into mbox format and read it comfortably. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com ** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-02-06 20:02 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 25+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2023-02-02 19:02 [TUHS] Typesetter C compiler Noel Chiappa 2023-02-02 21:57 ` [TUHS] " Jonathan Gray 2023-02-03 0:43 ` Jonathan Gray 2023-02-02 22:36 ` [TUHS] Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) Dan Cross 2023-02-02 22:41 ` [TUHS] " Larry McVoy 2023-02-02 22:47 ` Jim Capp 2023-02-03 1:44 ` Dave Horsfall 2023-02-03 13:17 ` Alan D. Salewski 2023-02-03 13:55 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-06 20:02 ` Chris Hanson 2023-02-03 14:11 ` Chet Ramey 2023-02-03 14:15 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-03 16:39 ` Dan Cross 2023-02-03 16:54 ` Larry McVoy 2023-02-03 17:08 ` Dan Cross 2023-02-03 17:11 ` Steve Nickolas 2023-02-03 17:26 ` [TUHS] move to COFF " Will Senn 2023-02-03 17:31 ` [TUHS] " Will Senn 2023-02-03 17:45 ` [TUHS] " Bakul Shah 2023-02-05 10:42 ` steve jenkin 2023-02-04 8:03 ` [TUHS] A List for New Systems Influenced by History. (Was: Proper use of TUHS) Ralph Corderoy 2023-02-04 13:56 ` [TUHS] " Larry McVoy 2023-02-04 17:31 ` [TUHS] Re: A List for New Systems Influenced by History Angel M Alganza 2023-02-03 6:36 ` [TUHS] Re: Proper use of TUHS (was Re: Typesetter C compiler) Lars Brinkhoff 2023-02-04 22:38 ` Tomasz Rola
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