RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Tiit Lankots]

>eventually, in 3rd year i started to use vi and read/hacked
>some of the code -- the horror, the horror ...

mm, i've heard before that vi' source code is <your favorite expletive>.
it (vi) must've made a world of difference back then, tho.
who wrote it, anyway?

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Stephen Wynne]

Bill Joy wrote vi, of course. And the C-shell. 'Nuff said.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[splite]

On Thu, Oct 02, 2003 at 12:49:57AM -0700, Stephen Wynne wrote:
> Bill Joy wrote vi, of course. And the C-shell. 'Nuff said.

Him?  He's harmless.  Back in the '70s he was part of the CSRG at Berkeley;
I think he did a little too much LDS.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[David Lukes]

>Him?  He's harmless.  Back in the '70s he was part of the CSRG at Berkeley;
>I think he did a little too much LDS.
>
>
Bill Joy was a Mormon?

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd, rounin]

> Bill Joy was a Mormon?

s/rm/r/

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[David Presotto]

Bill was/is many things but moron is not one of them.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boydomatic]

On Thu, Oct 02, 2003 at 05:06:54PM -0400, David Presotto wrote:
> Bill was/is many things but moron is not one of them.

anyone who goes around unarmed is a moron

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd, rounin]

> anyone who goes around unarmed is a moron

since when did boyd or his 'boydomatic' go around armed?

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd, rounin]

> anyone who goes around unarmed is a moron

anyone who goes around armed is a moron, or leaves their weapons
lying around is a moron.  this is not virginia, toto.

the 'cooling off period here' is _at least_ a year, after belonging
to a range, passing a test (in french), 6 month wait, 3 month application
period and any firearm must be kept in a safe; mine has a key/token
and a code.

not only is it the the LAW, it's not a bad idea.

btw: part of the 3 months is checking around the psych hospitals
to verify that you've spent no time in one.

bbtw.  this is way OT, but you _do not_ fuck around with firearms.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd, rounin]

> Bill was/is many things but moron is not one of them.

perhaps, but when you write a 'C shell' and get the mc carthy (sp?)
and/or ops 'round the wrong way, well ...

give me duff's rc.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[jmk]

On Thu Oct  2 12:40:56 EDT 2003, splite@purdue.edu wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 02, 2003 at 12:49:57AM -0700, Stephen Wynne wrote:
> > Bill Joy wrote vi, of course. And the C-shell. 'Nuff said.
>
> Him?  He's harmless.  Back in the '70s he was part of the CSRG at Berkeley;
> I think he did a little too much LDS.

When Joy announced last month that he was leaving Sun, the following
2 articles from The Register lovefest give you an idea of how he is
regarded, and what he gets credit for, in some circles (but not by anyone
I know).

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32732.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32780.html

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[ron minnich]

Joy was one of the first Rock Star OS guys. At 1982 or so Usenix they were
handing out 'The Joy of Unix' badges.

Now it's Linus. Wonder who's next?

ron

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd, rounin]

> Joy was one of the first Rock Star OS guys. At 1982 or so Usenix they were
> handing out 'The Joy of Unix' badges.

ahh yes, i remember a usenix (in SFO) where i could here this voice
flaming this guy to death.  it was honeyman -- we had a fun time.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[kim kubik]

rminnich@lanl.gov (ron minnich) wrote in message 

> Joy was one of the first Rock Star OS guys. At 1982 or so Usenix they were 
> handing out 'The Joy of Unix' badges. 
> 
 my admittedly weak memory is that the badges read
'The Joy of SUN', being handed out at to announce
 that he had joined the new company.

 Lore around this time as well was that HP had given
Joy a large sum of cash to port Unix to a 32-bit
microprocessor they had developed, the thing sat in
a chunk of solid gold the size of a kitchen tile,
necessary as a heat sink. A workstation based on it
may have actually shipped a couple of units.

 Anyhow, all this supposedly kept him from getting back 
across the Bay to UCB to complete his PhD.

 - k

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

gold sounds bad.  copper or silver are better heat conductors, right?

but the gold may have been there for other purposes ...

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, kim kubik wrote:

>  Lore around this time as well was that HP had given
> Joy a large sum of cash to port Unix to a 32-bit
> microprocessor they had developed, the thing sat in
> a chunk of solid gold the size of a kitchen tile,
> necessary as a heat sink. A workstation based on it
> may have actually shipped a couple of units.
>

Bulgaria, who was destined by its government to become the microelectronics
technology center of the Warsaw Pact countries, also used gold as the
connectors of the circuit boards it made. Reverse engineered Apple IIs...

I don't know if that was common practice in the west at the time, maybe 20
years earlier :)

Part of our high-school 'hands-on' education involved electronics. In grade
6 and 7 part of the curriculum involved learning how to use a soldering iron
and taking the gold (very gently) off the old circuit boards and into a cup...

andrey

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[david presotto]

gold was very common as pad wires.  AT&T used to require gold (or at least
gold plating)
on all board contacts.

A gold stratum for a chip would have been odd, not sure what it would be
good for.

Bill could have finished his thesis while he was at UCB if he had a mind to.
He
didn't.  Sun was pretty much after he'ld given up on it.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[david presotto]

Looked at the original message and saw that it said gold hat sink.   There
were a lot of gold 'plated' heat sinks floating around (still are some).
Don't
believe I ever saw any that were solid gold.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Dan Cross]

> Looked at the original message and saw that it said gold hat sink.   There
> were a lot of gold 'plated' heat sinks floating around (still are some).
> Don't believe I ever saw any that were solid gold.

I don't know about you, but if *I* saw a solid gold heat sink, I'd
buy it, take it home, melt it down, and sell it at a bank, and then
replace it with something made out of some other metal.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Dan Cross]

> I don't know about you, but if *I* saw a solid gold heat sink, I'd
> buy it, take it home, melt it down, and sell it at a bank, and then
> replace it with something made out of some other metal.

Err, make that STEAL it.  I guess my fundamentally honest nature led
to a Freudian slip.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[David Presotto]

Maybe that's why I never saw them; Dan has a pile of gold bullion in his
closet.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Dan Cross wrote:

> I don't know about you, but if *I* saw a solid gold heat sink, I'd
> buy it, take it home, melt it down, and sell it at a bank, and then
> replace it with something made out of some other metal.

I worked at HP as in intern in the good old (gold) days when many HP divs
made their own boards. There was a room in it with lotsa gold bars for the
boards.

I still have a PC board with a huge HP logo on it from those days.

ron

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[kim kubik]

rminnich@lanl.gov (ron minnich) wrote in message 
> On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Dan Cross wrote:
> 
 > > I don't know about you, but if *I* saw a solid gold heat sink, I'd
 > > buy it, take it home, melt it down, and sell it at a bank, and then
 > > replace it with something made out of some other metal.

> I worked at HP as in intern in the good old (gold) days when many HP divs 
> made their own boards. There was a room in it with lotsa gold bars for the 
> boards. 

Alright, I checked best I could, it seems to have been a large chunk of
copper (no wonder I don't have any money: "Wow, you'll give me ALL those
pennies for this little handful of gold coins?").  

But I still remember the badges reading, "The Joy of SUN",  part of the 
company's nascant marketing effort. Too bad they can't do anything now.
----------------------------------------------
First some info on the original HP 9000 series and cpu:

www.gaby.de/e9ktxt.htm
www.openpa.net/history.html

and two postings from people with functioning brain cells:
===============================
A little bit of HP 9000 history:
The 500 series, announced 12/1982:
  Deep down inside they ran an OS called SunOS, before Sun Microsystems
existed. On top of that they ran either HP-UX or HP Basic. These were based on
HP's own 32bit 1.um NMOS CPU, it was the first 32bit microprocessor. 1.um might
not sound that much, but the company I worked for at the time had just got
there 5.um technology out of the labs and sent it to production, and we weren't
that far behind the big boys.
  The HP9000 model 520 was a workstation, before the name existed. It had so
many fans in it that if you put one on a trolly it would move around the lab.
  Heat was such a problem on these chips, that the whole of the MB was a
large copper heat sink.
==========================================
Newsgroups: net.works
Date: 1982-12-12
                 HP's SuperDesktop System, the HP9000
Today  in Palo Alto, Hewlett Packard presented a seminar highlighting
Computer  Aided   Engineering  applications  of  its  small  computer
products.   
  The  HP9000  is  obviously  HP's  new  pride and  joy. One  of  the
presentations  had  been  a  glossy  video taped  presentation  which
recounted   some   of   the   history  of  the  9000.  HP's   primary
representative, Mike Radisich of HP Ft. Collins CO (the  home  of the
9000), introduced the video tape.
  The  9000  is described by HP as a real technological breakthrough.   
              The HP processor chips  are  not mounted in ceramic or
plastic casings to be attached  to boards.  Rather, the little (1/4")
chips themselves are mounted  directly  on  the  teflon coated copper
boards.  Using this  technique,  the 9000 boards pack a great deal of
power into a small area.   For  example,  the  memory  boards support
256KB of  memory  in  an  area of approximately 30 square inches.  In
that  area  are mounted, 16  memory  chips  as  well  as  some  other
interface and integrity support chips.  The  copper substratum of the
boards is required to help dissipate heat.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

not the 9000, please ...

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> I don't know about you, but if *I* saw a solid gold heat sink, I'd
> buy it, take it home, melt it down, and sell it at a bank, and then
> replace it with something made out of some other metal.

- Dan "Jack Handy" Cross

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

LOL.  i'm with you captain, ...

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

trouble with 'pure' [24 carat] gold is that it's very maleable, a bit too much.

it's early so '24 carat' maybe totally bogus.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

oh yeah pad wires, sure.  otherwise heavy, thick ... :)

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

what joy?  the tape copier?

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd, rounin]

     What happened is that Ken Thompson came to Berkeley and
     brought this broken Pascal system, and we got this summer job
     to fix it. While we were fixing it, we got frustrated with the editor
     we were using which was named ed. ed is certainly frustrating.

err yes, i remember doing assignments in 'pi' and hacking in procedures
(etc ...) that were basically threads.  not all my work.  strangely enough
one of the guys who did a lot of the work was killed in 9/11.

another one of those (somewhat less annoying) australians.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[vdharani]

Hi,

I happened to read an article in Fortune magazine. Thought of sharing it to
you:
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/technology/articles/0,15114,490598-1,00.html

Regards
dharani

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd, rounin]

> it (vi) must've made a world of difference back then, tho.
> who wrote it, anyway?

pretty sure joy smashed 'ex' into horton's curses (how aptly
named).  ask any vi fan how ~ was implemented.

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[a]

and on-the-job training as an admin, was vi. for years that's all i
ever used. then one day at work i had to use ed on a system with 
something busted with the console. an older unix type had to show
me where to start, but learning the regexp stuff was amaxing. i
still used vi regularly, but the stuff i learned in ed made me much
more productive there. and that's saying nothing of the tons of
other places the regexp stuff shows up.

a friend of mine is currently in school for a CS degree. they
taught him vi and emacs, but without any of the regexp stuff. i
tried to get him to learn ed, but he couldn't understand why you'd
want to. i guess it'll take until he's got nothing else to understand.
ア

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[rog]

> the stuff i learned in ed made me much
> more productive there. and that's saying nothing of the tons of
> other places the regexp stuff shows up.

i'd have grave difficulty surviving without the sam command
language...

(there are a couple of annoying little things i still haven't
worked out a good way of doing though)

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[rob pike, esq.]

> (there are a couple of annoying little things i still haven't
> worked out a good way of doing though)

if they're annoying, don't do them.

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

    if they're annoying, don't do them.

good call.

[9fans] sam command language

[rog]

> > (there are a couple of annoying little things i still haven't
> > worked out a good way of doing though)
>
> if they're annoying, don't do them.

they're annoying *because* i can't do them!

for instance, suppose i've got a little sam expression that nicely
isolates particular subregions of text.  i can't work out a way to
match only characters which appear at the very beginning (or end) of
"dot".  kind of similar to ^ and $ except with respect to the
boundaries of the current selection.

e.g.  here's an expression that matches mbox entries in an acme Mail
window (tab replaced by \t):

	,x/.+\n(\t.+\n)*/y/^\(deleted\)-/g/./

it would be useful to be able to guard by message number on the
resulting message lines (without worrying about the contents of the
subject line).

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[Rob Pike]

> for instance, suppose i've got a little sam expression that nicely
> isolates particular subregions of text.  i can't work out a way to
> match only characters which appear at the very beginning (or end) of
> "dot".  kind of similar to ^ and $ except with respect to the
> boundaries of the current selection.

long ago, i considered making ^ and $ mean this in sam.  they clearly
need to mean beginning and end of line at the top level, but when we
x down, maybe they should mean beginning and end of the substring.
i think i even tried to implement it.  in any case, i decided against
it; i
think it was a combination of not liking the shift in meaning and the
fact
that ^ and $ meaning bol and eol at the top level meant that they
required
special handling already, since sam really doesn't know much about
lines, unlike ed.  if the whole file is just one long string, which is
exactly
how sam works, shouldn't ^ and $ then mean beginning of file and end
of file?  that's not very useful.

and then, in the end, i felt the need for the modified version of ^ and
$
so rarely that i don't really mind not having them. unlike in the modern
world, back then adding a feature was considered something to consider
carefully, rather than just adding it in case someone might conceivably
want it one day.

-rob

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[Jim Choate]

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Rob Pike wrote:

> long ago, i considered making ^ and $ mean this in sam.  they clearly
> need to mean beginning and end of line at the top level, but when we
> x down, maybe they should mean beginning and end of the substring.

> that ^ and $ meaning bol and eol at the top level meant that they
> required

> special handling already, since sam really doesn't know much about
> lines, unlike ed.  if the whole file is just one long string, which is
> exactly
> how sam works, shouldn't ^ and $ then mean beginning of file and end
> of file?  that's not very useful.

Isn't a line just a substring of a file. The extension  of ^ and $ from
line to sub-string is natural. Confusing it with files isn't.

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[Micah Stetson]

> lines, unlike ed.  if the whole file is just one long string, which is
> exactly
> how sam works, shouldn't ^ and $ then mean beginning of file and end
> of file?  that's not very useful.

I would tend to expect that they meant beginning and end
of selection.  Then if you want to match at the beginnings
and ends of lines, it's just ',x /^...$/', and beginning
and end of file is ',/^...$/'.  I suppose that has its
disadvantages, too, like ',x /$/i/foo/' would put foo at
the beginning of every line but the first, it's logical,
but it's a little unexpected.  Having to match '\n' when
you wanted it, wouldn't be that bad, though.

Micah

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[Rob Pike]

consistency with ed's regexes was paramount when sam was written.
it may be less so now.  i was trying to build an editor that treated the
whole file as one string yet didn't offer too many surprises when used
by someone accustomed to ed.  i think it worked out well.

-rob

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[Micah Stetson]

> by someone accustomed to ed.  i think it worked out well.

I agree.  Sam is a triumph.  I didn't mean to sound like
I was complaining.  Thanks for a tool I use almost every
day and thank God for often.

Micah

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[boyd]

    i think it worked out well.

so do i.  i've used it for some 12 years now and it only ever screws
up when i do (but i have undo) or /tmp fills up.  once you master 'x'
it's a seriously powerful tool, without all that crap you find in things
like emacs.

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[rog]

> and then, in the end, i felt the need for the modified version of ^
> and $ so rarely that i don't really mind not having them.

for me, it's been frequent enough to feel a little frustrated by it
(particularly when dealing non-line-oriented files).

i wouldn't modify the meaning of ^ and $, rooted as they are in
antiquity.  one could always take a brave leap into the almost
unsullied waters of Unicode...

for instance, one could use « (unicode 0xab) and » (unicode 0xbb) to
indicate a regex anchored to the start or end of "dot".

e.g.

,x/[a-zA-Z0-9]+/g/«A/d

would delete all alphanumeric sequences starting with
the letter 'A'; or

,y/[ \t\n]/y/«./g/./|tr 'A-Z' 'a-z'

would lowercase all but the first letter of all words.  (aside: has
anyone found a good use for the fact that "y" selects null ranges?)

or

,x/^\.TS/.,/^\.TE/y/«...\n/y/...»/x/.*\n»/g/pattern/d

would delete the last line of a tbl table if it contained "pattern".

it seems useful and quite natural to use (and the implementation looks
trivial, in acme at any rate).

BTW while on minor sam/acme gripes, is it a bug or a feature that if a
file is written, changed, and the change undone, the file is not
marked as changed?  this means that X/'/w is not guaranteed to write
out all files that have been modified from their on-disk copies, and
has bitten me more than once (i don't use that idiom any more!)

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[rob pike, esq.]

>> and then, in the end, i felt the need for the modified version of ^
>> and $ so rarely that i don't really mind not having them.
>
> for me, it's been frequent enough to feel a little frustrated by it
> (particularly when dealing non-line-oriented files).
>
> i wouldn't modify the meaning of ^ and $, rooted as they are in
> antiquity.  one could always take a brave leap into the almost
> unsullied waters of Unicode...

the waters of special characters for regex hacking are muddy
enough already.   i've been in them before and i'm nice and
clean now.  no, thanks.

> BTW while on minor sam/acme gripes, is it a bug or a feature that if a
> file is written, changed, and the change undone, the file is not
> marked as changed?  this means that X/'/w is not guaranteed to write
> out all files that have been modified from their on-disk copies, and
> has bitten me more than once (i don't use that idiom any more!)

feature.  otherwise you couldn't undo to the point it was clean.

ever do this? (probably not)
	X/'/u
send that until nothing happens and you've backed up to the last
clean instance. you can even snarf and send a bunch of them:

	X/'/u
	X/'/u
	X/'/u
	X/'/u
	X/'/u
	X/'/u
	X/'/u
	...

weird, but it works.  (to do a particular file, put more detail in the
pattern.)

-rob

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[rog]

> feature.  otherwise you couldn't undo to the point it was clean.

hmm.  "was clean" is quite different from "is clean".  (both are
useful, but they're orthogonal to one another).

perhaps the 'f' line could indicate both (e.g.  with an extra
space/backquote to indicate "is clean").

while on the subject of undo/redo, would it be terrible to have a
"Redoall" command? as when clicking repetitively on "Redo" i
invariably click one too many times (whereupon the "Redo" has replaced
itself by "Put") and write the file unintentionally, sometimes with
annoying results.

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[Jim Choate]

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 rog@vitanuova.com wrote:

> hmm.  "was clean" is quite different from "is clean".  (both are
> useful, but they're orthogonal to one another).

Actually they're not. Orthogonal means they are not related or dependent.
Cleary 'was' is related to 'is' when applied the thing what has the state
'clean'.

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[okamoto]

> Actually they're not. Orthogonal means they are not related or dependent.
> Cleary 'was' is related to 'is' when applied the thing what has the state
> 'clean'.

I know what is the difference between boyd and jchoate, that is intelligence.
Both are sometimes/many times? noisy, but boyd has great intelligence.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[rob pike, esq.]

> while on the subject of undo/redo, would it be terrible to have a
> "Redoall" command? as when clicking repetitively on "Redo" i
> invariably click one too many times (whereupon the "Redo" has replaced
> itself by "Put") and write the file unintentionally, sometimes with
> annoying results.

you're in a vale of tears these days, aren't you?

try
	u100
or some such.

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[rog]

> you're in a vale of tears these days, aren't you?

story of my life :-)

or should that be :-( ?

actually they're just things that've niggled for years but without
enough incentive to mention them or change them...

my vale of tears at the moment is more to do with the fact that some
9fans messages are taking days and days to get through (i still
haven't seen the original "some of you guys..."  post yet, for
example, or my original post in this thread).

if it's happening for 9fans, god knows how much other
stuff has been lost in the pipeline. unreliable email is a frustrating thing.

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[vdharani]

> i wouldn't modify the meaning of ^ and $, rooted as they are in
> antiquity.  one could always take a brave leap into the almost
> unsullied waters of Unicode...
>
> for instance, one could use « (unicode 0xab) and » (unicode 0xbb) to
> indicate a regex anchored to the start or end of "dot".
>
before taking a brave leap, i think we need to make sure the concept will
work on all environments. Can we enter unicode characters easily in Plan 9,
Inferno, and Sam for Windows and any other ports with Plan9/Inferno origin
(like Inferno IE plugin) using a single method and without any problem? If
not, I suggest we try something else (Is it possible to use multiple
characters instead?). It becomes easier for users to remember a single
style.

Thanks
dharani

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[Russ Cox]

just what we need -- more characters to escape in regular expressions.
if you're going to change anything, it makes more sense to sully ^ and $
even further.

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[rog]

> just what we need -- more characters to escape in regular expressions.
> if you're going to change anything, it makes more sense to sully ^ and $
> even further.

s'pose so.  seems a pity.  it seems to work quite nicely now i've
implemented it.  it's not like « and » are common characters to search
for.

one could double them, i guess: ^^ and $$.

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[Derek Fawcus]

On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 03:33:22PM +0100, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> it's not like « and » are common characters to search for.

Well I seem to recall that they are in the sam source so that one can do the
click-inside-quote and have the selection cover the whole quote.

So which (natural,  I assume) language uses those as quote characters?

DF

Re: [9fans] sam command language

[Dan Cross]

Derek Fawcus <dfawcus@cisco.com> writes:
> So which (natural,  I assume) language uses those as quote characters?

Russian.

	- Dan C.

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

as it says in one of the sam papers:

   few people use the command language

nor did i, but now i do, a lot.

with 'perfect undo', so simply implemented, you can either:

     - smash the file(s)
     - build up a meta command

if it doan work, just type 'u'.

this is 'rollback'.  buncha times i've thought of:

    do it again [SD]

but i guess i'm just being a lazy mouse-er.

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

control-meta-clusterfuck

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Tiit Lankots]

>except that for some reason that wasn't in the message as posted!

i've experienced this, too: sometimes (complete) sentences disappear.
anybody else?

Tiit

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Charles Forsyth]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 187 bytes --]

i've always supposed that, as in this case, i did write something,
then shuffled things round to change the wording, but accidentally
failed to paste in something i'd intended to say.

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From: "Tiit Lankots" <t.lankots@aprote.ee>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 13:30:47 +0300
Message-ID: <81132473206F3A46A72BD6116E1A06AE479C7F@black.aprote.com>

>except that for some reason that wasn't in the message as posted!

i've experienced this, too: sometimes (complete) sentences disappear.
anybody else?

Tiit

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Tiit Lankots]

>untrue.  they have S0-19 and a buncha cars with MP5's etc in 'em.

Completely OT, but what the hell. We're already there anyway :)

Guns present a problem tied inherently to the human nature and thus
not solvable by social rules. There are basically two approaches that
have apparently worked in the past: (1) you allow them for everyone;
and (2) you rule them out completely. (1) seems to be the preffered style
of countries where freedom is (or was) appreciated, while (2) is the
way of the big brother. Neither works for extended periods of time, but
then again, no system does because of the way human society is
fluctuating.

Maybe we need a new kind of law that is not rigid but follows the 
ups and downs of the Herd closely.

Tiit

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

i have a 3rd solution, but i do like the 2nd ammendement.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Jack Johnson]

"boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net> wrote:
> bbtw.  this is way OT, but you _do not_ fuck around with firearms.

Still OT, but well said & spoken.

As a former member, I only wish more people like you could be in charge
of the NRA.

-J

P.S.

WAY OT, I've always been pissed that concealed carry laws don't allow
chemical sprays or knives.  One could argue that concealed carry is
about the perception of security rather than true security, so allowing
a trained citizen to carry something that helps them feel secure but
disallowing arms that might have a more limited lethal range -- or be
non-lethal -- seems asinine.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

Jack Johnson wrote:
> WAY OT, I've always been pissed that concealed carry laws don't allow
> chemical sprays or knives.

Some of them do, and in many jurisdictions no license is
required for those.

>   One could argue that concealed carry is
> about the perception of security rather than true security, ...

Not really; it's about being prepared for the worst case.
When a bad guy starts shooting people do you want to be
armed with a knife?  If a bad guy pulls a knife at some
distance, probably a gun will suffice to stop him, but if
you get involved in a knife-to-knife fight, you can expect
to be hurt.

Pepper spray is too often ineffective to be one's
defensive weapon of choice.

It may be reasonable to expect police to be prepared with
a range of options for level of force employed, but it's
going to far to expect civilians to carry such an array of
equipment.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

    Pepper spray is too often ineffective to be one's
    defensive weapon of choice.

that even extends to guns.  the T may still be up for a 'while',
depending on a number of factors.

    It may be reasonable to expect police to be prepared with
    a range of options for level of force employed, but it's
    going to far to expect civilians to carry such an array of
    equipment.

you need escalation (in general).  pepper got me out of an L
shaped ambush one night -- stand off range; it wasn't amazingly
effective, but it worked [tactically].

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Charles Forsyth]

>>It may be reasonable to expect police to be prepared with
>>a range of options for level of force employed, but it's
>>going to far to expect civilians to carry such an array of
>>equipment.

our police still (for the most part) speak softly and carry a stick.
is that true anywhere else?
on the whole, it still seems to work.
``an armed constabulary is a sign of weak Law''.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

untrue.  they have S0-19 and a buncha cars with MP5's etc in 'em.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Charles Forsyth]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 215 bytes --]

that's why i wrote
	>(there are specially-trained groups when something more is needed.)
except that for some reason that wasn't in the message as posted!
in the main, though, they do indeed not carry firearms.

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From: boyd@sdgm.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 06:09:41 -0400
Message-ID: <5082e6abc5473ac9231081539df2423c@sdgm.net>

untrue.  they have S0-19 and a buncha cars with MP5's etc in 'em.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

ok, they don't carry, well SO-19 does.  but an MP5 in a car is still pretty serious.

anyway this is way off topic, but:

    1. carry a firearm
    2. wear a vest

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Brian Inglis]

On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 15:45:56 GMT in comp.os.plan9,
fragment@nas.com (Jack Johnson) wrote:

>"boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net> wrote:
>> bbtw.  this is way OT, but you _do not_ fuck around with firearms.
>
>Still OT, but well said & spoken.
>
>As a former member, I only wish more people like you could be in charge
>of the NRA.
>
>-J
>
>P.S.
>
>WAY OT, I've always been pissed that concealed carry laws don't allow
>chemical sprays or knives.  One could argue that concealed carry is
>about the perception of security rather than true security, so allowing
>a trained citizen to carry something that helps them feel secure but
>disallowing arms that might have a more limited lethal range -- or be
>non-lethal -- seems asinine.

</lurk>
wear your hiking boots and carry bear spray at all times
<lurk>

Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada
--
Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Jack Johnson]

ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> Joy was one of the first Rock Star OS guys.

The Rock Stars of Unix.  It sounds like a bad VH1 special.

Or a good VH1 special.  They do some damn good documentary work.

-J

RE: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Tiit Lankots]

>gold sounds bad.  copper or silver are better heat conductors, right?

nope. gold beats them both in all kinds of conductivities, just to be 
beaten to death in the same game by platinum.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Russ Cox]

Ed is the only non-gui editor.  Sorry.

"p" is the equivalent of "more".  Run "man man|p".
Most of the time the |p is unnecessary because
of rio's scrolling mode.

The man pages are also online at
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/man/index.html

[9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Rasputin]

I'm having trouble getting rio to start on my LifeBook
(errors about no entries in vgadb - tried
a few different colour depths, no joy).

I've limped to the end of the install, and can now login as
glenda. I figured if I could bring the box up to the latest version
I might be able to get rio up later - Google seems to think i810 is
supported(ish).


Now, I'm a total newbie, I know my BSDs but I realise I'm not in
Kansas anymore. I've looked over the wiki and install guide,
which helped, but wondered if I could get a couple of pointers
until I find my bearings:


First off I need a text editor to get ndb configured,
but sam seems to want to use a GUI (errors about $wsys)?
Anything else I can use (preferably vi-ish but i'm not fussy at the
moment as long as it's a step up from ed).

Also each time I run man I get the whole page thrown
at the terminal; should I have set a pager or something?
The manpage for man is sadly too long to fit in my terminal :)


I'm impressed with how much I can do with cat and echo, but a
little nudge in the right direction would go a long wsy.
Thanks a lot.

--
"Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?"
"Not where it counts, baby."
        -- goats
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[rog]

> First off I need a text editor to get ndb configured,
> but sam seems to want to use a GUI (errors about $wsys)?
> Anything else I can use (preferably vi-ish but i'm not fussy at the
> moment as long as it's a step up from ed).

until you've got a GUI, your only options are ed or sam -d (which is
similar in style).  plan 9 gains a lot of simplicity by leaving all
the tty emulation stuff out of the kernel and the initial console
code.

it useful to learn how to use ed anyway, for those "command-line-only
moments).

> Also each time I run man I get the whole page thrown
> at the terminal; should I have set a pager or something?
> The manpage for man is sadly too long to fit in my terminal :)

man p

hope this is the right sort of nudge!

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd, rounin]

ed(1) is the last line of defence.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, boyd, rounin wrote:

> ed(1) is the last line of defence.

as such, I think it's the first thing you should learn, esp. regex. I'm
actually grateful that I had to spend a few years with only ed, as it
continues to save my life from time to time.

ron

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd, rounin]

> > ed(1) is the last line of defence.
>
> as such, I think it's the first thing you should learn, ...

i meant that given i did most of my comp sci with ed
it's a damn useful tool/skill to have.

eventually, in 3rd year i started to use vi and read/hacked
some of the code -- the horror, the horror ...

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[mirtchov]

> I'm having trouble getting rio to start on my LifeBook
> (errors about no entries in vgadb - tried
> a few different colour depths, no joy).

what graphics card do you have?  see the archives for anyone with a
similar problem, and possibly a soluion :)

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[okamoto]

> I might be able to get rio up later - Google seems to think i810 is
> supported(ish).

I sent i81x driver, and it is included in the sources tree.
However, I don't know wheather you can get that binary version.
Some daya ago, Teege from Germany asked another vga which I
also updated, and reported it didn't work.   I was much confused
why that can be happen if he has the same ID card to mine.
Then, I sent my sources, and asked him.  Are those same to that
you have?   His answer was no.   Then, I decided I will not send
sources to them.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[okamoto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 296 bytes --]

I shoud have been more verbose on this.

I sent those drivers with the wish some new commer to Plan 9
will face hardware problem, if I don't send the drivers.   Therefore,
I expect the binaries for those drivers are also included in the
primary distribution, which may be CDROM...

Kenji

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From: okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:49:43 +0900
Message-ID: <b280a79fea9318263b88c318bad290fa@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>

> I might be able to get rio up later - Google seems to think i810 is
> supported(ish).

I sent i81x driver, and it is included in the sources tree.
However, I don't know wheather you can get that binary version.
Some daya ago, Teege from Germany asked another vga which I
also updated, and reported it didn't work.   I was much confused
why that can be happen if he has the same ID card to mine.
Then, I sent my sources, and asked him.  Are those same to that
you have?   His answer was no.   Then, I decided I will not send
sources to them.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Rasputin]

* okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> [1034 03:34]:
> I shoud have been more verbose on this.
>
> I sent those drivers with the wish some new commer to Plan 9
> will face hardware problem, if I don't send the drivers.   Therefore,
> I expect the binaries for those drivers are also included in the
> primary distribution, which may be CDROM...

> However, I don't know wheather you can get that binary version.
> Some days ago, Teege from Germany asked another vga which I
> also updated, and reported it didn't work.   I was much confused
> why that can be happen if he has the same ID card to mine.
> Then, I sent my sources, and asked him.  Are those same to that
> you have?   His answer was no.   Then, I decided I will not send
> sources to them.

I don't know whether this *should* be supported,
but NetBSD sees it as:

pchb0 at pci0 dev 0 function 0
pchb0: Intel 82830MP CPU to I/O Bridge 1 (rev. 0x04)
agp0 at pchb0: detected 8060k stolen memory
agp0: aperture size is 128M
agp0: aperture at 0xe8000000, size 0x8000000
vga1 at pci0 dev 2 function 0: Intel 82830MP Integrated Video (rev. 0x04)
wsdisplay0 at vga1 kbdmux 1: console (80x25, vt100 emulation)
wsmux1: connecting to wsdisplay0
Intel 82830MP Integrated Video (miscellaneous display) at pci0 dev 2 function 1
not configured

- anyone know if that might work with the latest sources?

I'll try get online using ed - it's just vi through a letterbox, isn't
it - at least I can read docs now.....

Cheers for all replies, anyway.



--
If God had intended Man to Walk, He would have given him Feet.
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[jmk]

On Fri Oct  3 09:13:51 EDT 2003, rasputin@idoru.mine.nu wrote:
> ...
> I don't know whether this *should* be supported,
> but NetBSD sees it as:
> ...
> Intel 82830MP Integrated Video
> ...

If the PCI device ID of that function is 0x3577 then it is in
the current driver.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Rasputin]

* jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com <jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com> [1033 15:33]:
> On Fri Oct  3 09:13:51 EDT 2003, rasputin@idoru.mine.nu wrote:
> > ...
> > I don't know whether this *should* be supported,
> > but NetBSD sees it as:
> > ...
> > Intel 82830MP Integrated Video
> > ...
>
> If the PCI device ID of that function is 0x3577 then it is in
> the current driver.

According to NetBSDs pcidevs.h, that's the fella.
So if I can get up to the latest driver, I'm set, right?

[ Sorry if that's a stupid question, I'm not sure if by
'current driver' you mean the 4th ed. release, or if I need to upgrade. ]

Last stupid question (err, of the night ;] ) - is the data on

http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Staying_up_to_date/index.html

up to date?

Thanks again for all the help, hopefully next time I post it'll be
from a Plan9 system.

--
Life may have no meaning -- or even worse, it may have a meaning of
which I disapprove.
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[jmk]

On Fri Oct  3 15:04:53 EDT 2003, rasputin@idoru.mine.nu wrote:
> ...
> So if I can get up to the latest driver, I'm set, right?
>
> [ Sorry if that's a stupid question, I'm not sure if by
> 'current driver' you mean the 4th ed. release, or if I need to upgrade. ]
> ...

I'm not sure if it was in the 4th Ed. or not, but it should be
in the current downloads (Intel i81x).

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[Rasputin]

* jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com <jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com> [1022 20:22]:
> On Fri Oct  3 15:04:53 EDT 2003, rasputin@idoru.mine.nu wrote:
> > ...
> > So if I can get up to the latest driver, I'm set, right?
> >
> > [ Sorry if that's a stupid question, I'm not sure if by
> > 'current driver' you mean the 4th ed. release, or if I need to upgrade. ]
> > ...
>
> I'm not sure if it was in the 4th Ed. or not, but it should be
> in the current downloads (Intel i81x).

Ah, thanks - since my last post I found the plan9-new source
snapshot ISO, and that's helped.

The installer now inits the graphics card , but only wants to
use the first dozen rows of the display (jokes about ed being
vi through a letterboux jump up and bite me on the ass once more).

I'll try random variations on res/colour depth tonight unless
this rings bells with anyone?
--
It's the thought, if any, that counts!
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[boyd]

start with the lowest colour depth and then go higher.

Re: [9fans] Newbie: life without rio

[okamoto]

> The installer now inits the graphics card , but only wants to
> use the first dozen rows of the display (jokes about ed being
> vi through a letterboux jump up and bite me on the ass once more).

i830 device was used by dhog only for his LCD in notebook.
If you were using LCD, it may be my fault to make it unwork.
Please let me know personally the details of your situation, dump list of
vga driver etc.

Kenji