Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[quanstro]

isn't this the "i don't trust new software" argument resurrected?
let's all install V7 from mag tape on our pdp-11s. ;-)

sorry. i couldn't resist.

- erik

On Fri Feb 10 16:54:45 CST 2006, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> > Would you pick
> > XML or ASN.1 if those were the only two options?  If the pointy-haired
> > powers that be are mandating one or the other and, ``neither'' isn't in
> > the range of possible solutions?
> 
> What are the alternatives?  My pick is ASN.1, any time.  You can call
> the ITU-T by as many ugly names as you like, but their standards are
> considerably more firm than more recent publications.
> 
> ++L
> 

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[jmk]

Many years ago now, a good friend of mine remarked that
if we actually made all those whining about the state of things
now compared to the "good old days" go back to using v7 Unix,
they would quickly realise that times had actually moved
forward and there were things they were used to that it didn't
have and that they really needed. I used v[567] and I've
ported v7, and I wouldn't go back. From what I understand,
Plan 9 was an attempt to build on that by saying "this got
us so far, but times are changing and it won't cut it with
networks, bitmapped displays, SMP etc, we need a better base".
That was a long time ago and no one has, to my limited
non- computer science knowledge, attempted anything similar,
they're all still working on copying 30 year old technology.

I don't have an iPod, my mobile phone is 5 years old and I
turn it on about 4 hours a week and there are many things
about the 21st century that make me grumpy. But you can't go
back. You should, however, be careful about how how you
go forward.

--jim

On Fri Feb 10 19:12:00 EST 2006, quanstro@quanstro.net wrote:
> isn't this the "i don't trust new software" argument resurrected?
> let's all install V7 from mag tape on our pdp-11s. ;-)
> 
> sorry. i couldn't resist.
> 
> - erik
> 
> On Fri Feb 10 16:54:45 CST 2006, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> > > Would you pick
> > > XML or ASN.1 if those were the only two options?  If the pointy-haired
> > > powers that be are mandating one or the other and, ``neither'' isn't in
> > > the range of possible solutions?
> > 
> > What are the alternatives?  My pick is ASN.1, any time.  You can call
> > the ITU-T by as many ugly names as you like, but their standards are
> > considerably more firm than more recent publications.
> > 
> > ++L
> > 

ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[lucio]

> isn't this the "i don't trust new software" argument resurrected?
> let's all install V7 from mag tape on our pdp-11s. ;-)
> 
> sorry. i couldn't resist.

You're welcome, but I think you're off the mark.  X.680 is less than
100 pages and is written in that peculiar jargon that CCITT/ITU-T have
evolved to make sure that the real niggly faults are well hidden where
they can only be discovered in the most painful fashion.

Perhaps it is seriously flawed, but I have only a single paper by Carl
Ellison entitled ASN.1 Misuse (September 15, 1995) to back that
argument:

	"The ASN.1 standard (Abstract Syntax Notation 1) is
	proliferating, in spite of cries of anguish by computer
	professionals who are faced with implementing to those
	standards.  The standard is flawed.  Some of those flaws come
	from its complexity and ambiguity - a product most likely of
	having started down the wrong path and been subject to
	corrections by various interested parties along the way.  It
	has acquired various warts and is apparently the result of a
	committee effort.  Other flaws come from its misuse, and those
	are the one addressed in this paper."

I note I'm missing pages 5 to 6 (of 6 :-).  Thing is, XML is not 100
pages long, is nothing like less "complex or ambiguous" and is still
work in progress.  How much can one add to such a beast before its
camel back breaks?

And my question remains: "What is a better option for the conveying of
platform-independent data than ASN.1 or XML?"

++L

Re: ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[geoff]

> "What is a better option for the conveying of platform-independent
> data than ASN.1 or XML?"

A somewhat-flippant answer would be text strings and numbers expressed
as strings.  But what ASN.1 (or BER) and XML seem to be trying to do
is to permit the export and later import of essentially arbitrary C
structs in a manner that will be portable across processor
architectures.  /sys/src/libsec/port/x509.c seems to be mostly
concerned with ASN1 and it's 2,559 lines long, and that's short
compared with the openssl ASN1 routines, which total 16,071 lines in
my copy.  So why not /lib/ndb format: textual attribute=value pairs
with grouping?

Re: ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[Skip Tavakkolian]

i think any committee that comes up with a proposed standard should
individually be responsible for implementing it.  note that this would
work for large or small efforts.  if the committee is able to
implement it and it works, then it would be adopted.

specific to the question, i like the S-expression approach I've not
used it for anything so my advice is as good as the random committee
member.

> And my question remains: "What is a better option for the conveying of
> platform-independent data than ASN.1 or XML?"

Re: ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[geoff]

> i think any committee that comes up with a proposed standard should
> individually be responsible for implementing it.

That's not how PTTs do things!  How do you think they came up with
crap like OSI (X.400, X.500)?  Sheesh, get real, kid!  ☺

Re: ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[lucio]

> That's not how PTTs do things!  How do you think they came up with
> crap like OSI (X.400, X.500)?  Sheesh, get real, kid!  ☺

Come, come, Geoff!  They did precisely as they needed to.  It probably
has a lot in common with the urethra doubling back into the prostrate
gland.  Has anyone produced a better mouse trap yet?  I note with
horror that internationalisation is creeping into LDAP.

++L

Re: ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> i think any committee that comes up with a proposed standard should
>> individually be responsible for implementing it.
> 
> That's not how PTTs do things!  How do you think they came up with
> crap like OSI (X.400, X.500)?  Sheesh, get real, kid!  ☺

what i meant to say was "if i was philosopher-king in charge of the world i
would make any committee ..."

Re: ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[lucio]

> So why not /lib/ndb format: textual attribute=value pairs
> with grouping?

Because (a) they are language/alphabet specific and (b) they are
inefficient.

Before you jump down my throat, I am aware that the inefficiencies
smack of premature optimisation, but in ASN.1 days they were mere
failures of vision.  And I do maintain that saving processor cycles
and storage is not a futile quest.  The corollary to Moore's Law is
"Software bloat exceeds any gains in processor performance even before
such gains can be exploited".

It also strikes me as remarkable that you'd think ASN.1 is intended to
represent C structures.  I would think the intent was to be a message
format on the wire and the internal representation was left as a
matter of implementation.  The latter, of course, is where it all fell
apart because (a) there were issues that could not be finalised
without conflict and (b) there were mistakes that were only discovered
once different implementations could not interoperate.

In the latter case, I have to concede that the IETF is better geared
for the laying down of standards.  Skip is right in that standards
ought not to be accepted until there has been an implementation, but
of course that sword has two edges, too.

++L

Re: ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[geoff]

Hmm, the old language-specific argument.  The usual solution to this
is to use a binary encoding, the theory being that by avoiding words,
you avoid chauvinism.  I'd still rather have a textual format, even if
the attribute names have to be translated for speakers of other
languages (they'd have to translate a binary encoding into their own
language anyway).  If we wanted to inconvenience everyone equally, the
attribute names could be gibberish.

I'm not convinced that the slight inefficiency matters, particular for
a message format.  We do build indices in /lib/ndb to speed searches,
but that's for searching, not just encoding for transmission.  If
you're thinking of binary-decimal conversion overheads, one could
insist upon using octal representation (as tar does), which can be
converted more quickly than decimal, though that does make it a little
less human-friendly.

There has to be mapping between message format and something like a C
struct (some internal representation).  ASN.1 attempts to describe
both, as I understand it, to facilitate conversion between the two.

Re: ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[Steve Simon]

> So why not /lib/ndb format: textual attribute=value pairs
> with grouping?

Vote 1 for Geoff.

Seriously I tried this for a project, but got loads of flak for not
using The Standard (XML) so when I "threw one away" last year I reworked
the system using XML.

To be honest the pain was short lived - writing the parser, and since
then I don't see much difference. There are some of XMLs stranger rules
and all those [<>/] which look a mess to my C trained eyes but I try
not to look too often.

(Before anyone jumps doen my throat I wrote a parser because I am on a
small embedded system)

-Steve

Re: ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[Bruce Ellis]

I implemented both in ozinferno.  ASN is almost ludicrous.
XML was remarkably easy but ruthless.  anyhow my XML
parser does parse the XML spec (written in XML) and i'm
yet to find a commercial product that does.

brucee

On 2/11/06, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> > So why not /lib/ndb format: textual attribute=value pairs
> > with grouping?
>
> Vote 1 for Geoff.
>
> Seriously I tried this for a project, but got loads of flak for not
> using The Standard (XML) so when I "threw one away" last year I reworked
> the system using XML.
>
> To be honest the pain was short lived - writing the parser, and since
> then I don't see much difference. There are some of XMLs stranger rules
> and all those [<>/] which look a mess to my C trained eyes but I try
> not to look too often.
>
> (Before anyone jumps doen my throat I wrote a parser because I am on a
> small embedded system)
>
> -Steve
>

Re: ASN.1 (Was: [9fans] More 'Sam I am')

[lucio]

> If we wanted to inconvenience everyone equally, the
> attribute names could be gibberish.
> 
Or binary.  Even your argument goes full circle.  And because we're
talking about information on the wire, why not stick to what the end
points process best?

Not that ASN.1 should be defended, but your argument needs its holes
poked :-)

> If
> you're thinking of binary-decimal conversion overheads, one could
> insist upon using octal representation (as tar does), which can be
> converted more quickly than decimal, though that does make it a little
> less human-friendly.
> 
The human-friendly bit is a chimera, It's data on the wire, it was
never the intent of CCITT (I presume) to treat it as anything else.
Much as you can't detect the magnetic properties of core to decide
what is in memory, you need some sort of translator to inspect the
data on the wire.  In CCITT terms, that isn't a problem as cost was
never a consideration when investing in projects with 30- to 50-year
life spans.  It's the urgency of new technology that forces costs all
the way down and deprives R&D departments of multi-digit budgets.

> There has to be mapping between message format and something like a C
> struct (some internal representation).  ASN.1 attempts to describe
> both, as I understand it, to facilitate conversion between the two.

I'm not an ASN.1 guru, never will be.  But I think ASN.1 is intended
to be the permanent representation, with ephemeral internal formats as
dictated by processing.  I'm not sure where in the ITU-T
recommendations I'd have to look to contradict you, however.

It is perfectly possible for the ITU-T committee to have decided to
intrude where they did not belong.  They certainly mirrored the
computer architectures of the time, with various predefined integer
sizes as well as a variable length alternative, so they are guilty of
parochial thinking.

++L

[9fans] asn.1 alternatives

[Charles Forsyth]

>> > What are the alternatives?  My pick is ASN.1, any time.  You can call
>> > the ITU-T by as many ugly names as you like, but their standards are
>> > considerably more firm than more recent publications.

when i need to represent more than simple text or values, or attribute value pairs, which isn't all that often,
more and more i use Rivest S-expressions, as i did on wednesday.
they are unambiguous (unlike both ASN.1 and XML),
easy to read and write, that can represent binary directly where that's appropriate,
with an `advanced textual form' (like it!) that people can read without suffering eye strain,
but with a well-defined canonical form (always helpful when comparing or signing things).

i keep intending to try armstrong's ubf, but haven't, yet.
it's perhaps more in the XML-RPC or ASN.1 realm.
it has some good ideas, anyhow.

simple text or values, or attribute value pairs are often adequate,
require little code to read or write, and are often more efficient when all
costs are taken into account.   if you're lacking a `standard' for something
you'd like to use, and you need that extra justification,
just write an RFC, and then say ``i'm following an existing RFC''.

on the other hand, if you're trying to talk certain existing protocols, you need some
quantity of ASN.1; if you're trying to interpret certain existing data, you might need some XML.
just remember, though, that no one needs `Web Services', the os/360 for
the 21st century, and the upas tree of distributed systems.
whenever it comes up, just hack round it, and even that is more than it deserves.

also, in my experience, managers (pointy-head or not) are rarely overly
caught up by the technical details.  they just want such-and-such a problem to go away.
they usually don't really care how you do it, especially if it works well
and they never ever have to cut short a trip to the golf course because of it.

Re: [9fans] asn.1 alternatives

[Sape Mullender]

>>> > What are the alternatives?  My pick is ASN.1, any time.

Ha.  I'm working on a UMTS base station (another, interesting tale
of hard real time in Plan 9) and we're using an ASN.1 compiler that
typically takes 30-bytes ASN.1 packed messages and decompresses
them into 5 megabyte (yes, MEGA byte) C structs.  Amazing.
In the defense of ASN.1 I must say that this is not so much caused by
ASN.1 as by the incredible amount of configurational possibilities in
UMTS connections (almost none of which are or will be  implemented
by anybody), and by the insistence of the comiler to code anything that
has a known maximum length by a static array of that length.

	Sape

Re: [9fans] asn.1 alternatives

[lucio]

> also, in my experience, managers (pointy-head or not) are rarely overly
> caught up by the technical details.  they just want such-and-such a problem to go away.
> they usually don't really care how you do it, especially if it works well
> and they never ever have to cut short a trip to the golf course because of it.

I don't share your luck and I think few do, although this forum may be
more fortunate in that respect.  I am heading to Cape Town tomorrow
morning to install MS Exchange in what will probably still be a NetBSD
shop for a year or so.  Me, when I have no idea what Exchange actually
look like!

This is what comes of bucking the trend successfully.  IT management
there believe it will cost them less to entrust the installation to me
than to bring in an MCSE (by whatever the current label may be) that
will install herself permanently behind the Exchange keyboard at a
formidable monthly salary.  What will in fact happen, sadly, is that
I'll be blamed for all the things that will go wrong with MS Exchange,
irrespective of the real responsibility, more things will go wrong
than usual because I'll insist in front-ending Exchange with the
existing Sendmail installation, modified in haste to deliver to
Exchange instead of the local mailboxes.  All sorts of extremely fancy
features of Exchange will be used and the reliability of the existing
system will soon will be forgotten.

My shoulders aren't wide enough to carry that load, but I can't afford
to charge them what would be market related fees for my experience
because it is not what they and their colleagues perceive to be the
mainstream, so I'll have to sneak away from under their system very
slowly and very surreptitiously as soon as I can find an alternative
position.  They will not, of course, discuss this, as they do not want
to be encumbered with the necessary and unpleasant reality.

Sigh!

++L

PS: If you have a broad-spectrum position at Vitanuova that involves
vision rather than productivity, I'm your man :-)

Re: [9fans] asn.1 alternatives

[lucio]

> and by the insistence of the comiler to code anything that
> has a known maximum length by a static array of that length.

I've never seen any of these mythical monsters, what do they really
look like?  Looking at the innumerable implementations of ASN.1
libraries, one is tempted to believe that enough effort has been
deployed in that direction.  Does any of the Open Source stuff
(Heimdal, OpenLDAP, OpenSSL, rdesktop, to name but a few) actually
ever re-use someone else's ASN.1 libraries?

++L

Re: [9fans] asn.1 alternatives

[Dan Cross]

On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 02:29:19PM +0000, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> also, in my experience, managers (pointy-head or not) are rarely overly
> caught up by the technical details.  they just want such-and-such a problem
> to go away.  they usually don't really care how you do it, especially if it
> works well and they never ever have to cut short a trip to the golf course
> because of it.

I think, perhaps, that this is less true than it once was.  In particular,
they need to answer to marketting and ensure that the product is sufficiently
buzzword compliant.  But my point in bringing up the managerial team in the
first place was just to demonstrate that sometimes the person doing the
implementation doesn't *really* have all that much control over the choices
made for the implementation.  An extreme example would be, say, if I were
writing a Windows application.  I probably don't have much ability to write
it for another system (Unix, Plan 9, whatever) instead because I'd prefer
that.

As for ASN.1 alternatives....  When you have a choice, I would agree that
S expressions are compelling.  Another option is YAML, which is becoming
popular in the scripting language world, and is fairly reasonable, even for
representing complex hierarchical objects.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] asn.1 alternatives

[Charles Forsyth]

> made for the implementation.  An extreme example would be, say, if I were
> writing a Windows application.  I probably don't have much ability to write
> it for another system (Unix, Plan 9, whatever) instead because I'd prefer
> that.

that isn't quite what i was suggesting (it was fairly carefully worded): in such a case you
probably wouldn't have made `a problem go away', but rather introduced a new one
because your solution was quite possibly fine but for a different environment.

as a small concrete example, some of our grid users run existing Windows
binaries for which source is unavailable, so the application does need to
run on Windows (or perhaps a close emulation of it), and trying to
convert it (say) to Limbo isn't particularly helpful; on the other hand,
that still doesn't stop us using Inferno to build the grid infrastructure well
and pleasantly (and without using XML or web services anywhere, as it happens),
within the Windows environment.

i wasn't suggesting one had carte blanche, just that it's often possible to
find more freedom than one might initially expect in providing the solution;
i also pointed out that anything off-beat might need to work really well
to keep them happy [on the golf course] (but then, if it doesn't, why use it?)

one point i didn't make, but ought to have done, is that it can be a little
trickier when one is in competition for work, but even there it can be done.

Re: [9fans] asn.1 alternatives

[Skip Tavakkolian]

i wonder if this is an entropy  phenomenon.  when an ABSTRACT
notation is made CONCRETE, something has to give.  it is as if instead
of just translating a message in English to one in French, one sent
a polyglot along with the message.

>>>> > What are the alternatives?  My pick is ASN.1, any time.
> 
> Ha.  I'm working on a UMTS base station (another, interesting tale
> of hard real time in Plan 9) and we're using an ASN.1 compiler that
> typically takes 30-bytes ASN.1 packed messages and decompresses
> them into 5 megabyte (yes, MEGA byte) C structs.  Amazing.

Re: [9fans] asn.1 alternatives

[Marina Brown]

lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:

>>also, in my experience, managers (pointy-head or not) are rarely overly
>>caught up by the technical details.  they just want such-and-such a problem to go away.
>>they usually don't really care how you do it, especially if it works well
>>and they never ever have to cut short a trip to the golf course because of it.
>>    
>>
>
>I don't share your luck and I think few do, although this forum may be
>more fortunate in that respect.  I am heading to Cape Town tomorrow
>morning to install MS Exchange in what will probably still be a NetBSD
>shop for a year or so.  Me, when I have no idea what Exchange actually
>look like!
>
>This is what comes of bucking the trend successfully.  IT management
>there believe it will cost them less to entrust the installation to me
>than to bring in an MCSE (by whatever the current label may be) that
>will install herself permanently behind the Exchange keyboard at a
>formidable monthly salary.  What will in fact happen, sadly, is that
>I'll be blamed for all the things that will go wrong with MS Exchange,
>irrespective of the real responsibility, more things will go wrong
>than usual because I'll insist in front-ending Exchange with the
>existing Sendmail installation, modified in haste to deliver to
>Exchange instead of the local mailboxes.  All sorts of extremely fancy
>features of Exchange will be used and the reliability of the existing
>system will soon will be forgotten.
>
>  
>
Reminds me of last weekend - i got a paniced call from one of the sales
execs - one with a clue - to get him OFF the exchange server because of
the problems. Now he is happy to have his mail forwarded to a linux 
virtserver
where he uses procmail and pine. I am ever so greatfull i am not responsible
for the exchange. I warned them against it and they went with a hosted 
solution
which gives people 150MB of mailbox space.... About the volume i dispose of
after a long weekend.

Good Luck...

-- Marina Brown

Re: [9fans] asn.1 alternatives

[Brantley Coile]

> I think, perhaps, that this is less true than it once was.  In particular,
> they need to answer to marketting and ensure that the product is sufficiently
> buzzword compliant.  But my point in bringing up the managerial team in the
> first place was just to demonstrate that sometimes the person doing the
> implementation doesn't *really* have all that much control over the choices
> made for the implementation.  An extreme example would be, say, if I were

I find the most pressure on technical design to be one's peers.
Entrenched technology carries a lot of weight.  Pressure from
co-workers to use the popular technology is also strong.  A lot of it
is just fashion; a lot is the `teach what industry wants, use what
universities teach' cycle.

Just look for every place you can strech things a bit.  If you're
talking to a SNMP client, you've got to use BER.  If a web site is
going to force XML at you, just do it.  But when possible, from my
experience, just use text.

ASN1 reminds me of something that happened a few years ago.  I ported
V7 to an embedded application where my co-workers were developing the
rest of the system on Sun4s.  I warned them that my port was going to
be 32 bit and that structure members would align to 4 bytes, not 2, as
SunOS did in those days.  They said that wasn't a problem, since they
were marshalling the data into and out of the messages.  Turns out
that their marshalling code was full of structure alignment
assumptions and they spend two weeks geting the library to work.

Re: [9fans] asn.1 alternatives

[Harri Haataja]

On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 02:29:19PM +0000, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> when i need to represent more than simple text or values, or attribute
> value pairs, which isn't all that often, more and more i use Rivest
> S-expressions, as i did on wednesday.
> they are unambiguous (unlike both ASN.1 and XML), easy to read and
> write, that can represent binary directly where that's appropriate,
> with an `advanced textual form' (like it!) that people can read
> without suffering eye strain, but with a well-defined canonical form
> (always helpful when comparing or signing things).

Sexprs would get my humble vote as well.

BTW, re XML, there's also SXML that may or may not be interesting.
http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/SXML.html

-- 
The memory management on the PowerPC can be used to frighten small children.
		-- Linus Torvalds

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Serge Gagnon]

>>>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2006, "Lucio" == Lucio De Re wrote:

  +> i can't find a current version of this on the net.

  Lucio> Alistair Crooks is package-master for NetBSD, his "ssam" is
  Lucio> extremely likely to be part of the NetBSD "packages" collection.
  Lucio> Try "netbsd.org", navigating to the packages is straightforward.

> There is also a FreeBSD port but it is not yet commited in the ports tree.
> Just for now, you can go to
> http://quenix2.dyndns.org:8080/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/ssam/?cvsroot=Ports
> and click on the Download_tarball in order to fetch the ports.

ssam have been officialy integrated into the FreeBSD ports tree.
http://www.freshports.org/editors/ssam

--
GAGNON serge <serge.gagnon@b2b2c.ca>
PGP KEY-ID: 0xBBC1478F
PGP Fingerprint: B48B 4633 28F5 28F6 7A62 5650 69C8 E293 BBC1 478F
PPG Key: http://quenix2.dyndns.org:7777 | telnet quenix2.dyndns.org 7777



--
GAGNON serge <serge.gagnon@b2b2c.ca>
PGP KEY-ID: 0xBBC1478F
PGP Fingerprint: B48B 4633 28F5 28F6 7A62 5650 69C8 E293 BBC1 478F
PPG Key: http://quenix2.dyndns.org:7777 | telnet quenix2.dyndns.org 7777
Cvsdadm: Tool for CVSd pserver user administration
http://quenix2.dyndns.org:8080/Unix-soft/cvsdadm.html

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Serge Gagnon]

>>>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2006, "Lucio" == Lucio De Re wrote:

  +> i can't find a current version of this on the net.

  Lucio> Alistair Crooks is package-master for NetBSD, his "ssam" is
  Lucio> extremely likely to be part of the NetBSD "packages" collection.
  Lucio> Try "netbsd.org", navigating to the packages is straightforward.

There is also a FreeBSD port but it is not yet commited in the ports tree.
Just for now, you can go to
http://quenix2.dyndns.org:8080/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/ssam/?cvsroot=Ports
and click on the Download_tarball in order to fetch the ports.
-- 
GAGNON serge <serge.gagnon@b2b2c.ca>
PGP KEY-ID: 0xBBC1478F
PGP Fingerprint: B48B 4633 28F5 28F6 7A62 5650 69C8 E293 BBC1 478F
PPG Key: http://quenix2.dyndns.org:7777 | telnet quenix2.dyndns.org 7777

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Gabriel Ivanes]

On 2/24/06, Anselm R. Garbe <garbeam@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 07:36:06AM -0600, quanstro@quanstro.net wrote:
> > i found "larswm" (http://home.earthlink.net/~lab1701/larswm/)
> > when poking around.
> >
> > it appears to incorporate acme layout features into a wm similar
> > to 9wm. i haven't tried it yet.
>
> Rather old news, anyway, larswm is based on 9wm, but quite different
> and much more improved. Though you can consider next wmii-3
> release which will be available in April as option as well,
> which provides a 9P interface which can be used with 9p(1) from
> plan9port or v9fs/9p2000.ko, and comes with a much more
> acme-alike column layout beside tagbars and a very similiar
> event-file approach like in acme. You can already checkout the
> developer version from hg repository at wmii.de (the 9P
> interface is done through a tiny 9P client/server library called
> libixp I wrote recently, it is included in the wmii source as
> well).
>
> Regards,
> --
>  Anselm R. Garbe  ><><  www.ebrag.de  ><><  GPG key: 0D73F361
>

Larswm is light, convenient and stable.

--

La capacité d'apprendre est un don
La faculté d'apprendre est un talent
La volonté d'apprendre est un choix.

Frank Herbert

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Anselm R. Garbe]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 07:36:06AM -0600, quanstro@quanstro.net wrote:
> i found "larswm" (http://home.earthlink.net/~lab1701/larswm/)
> when poking around.
> 
> it appears to incorporate acme layout features into a wm similar
> to 9wm. i haven't tried it yet.

Rather old news, anyway, larswm is based on 9wm, but quite different
and much more improved. Though you can consider next wmii-3
release which will be available in April as option as well,
which provides a 9P interface which can be used with 9p(1) from
plan9port or v9fs/9p2000.ko, and comes with a much more
acme-alike column layout beside tagbars and a very similiar
event-file approach like in acme. You can already checkout the
developer version from hg repository at wmii.de (the 9P
interface is done through a tiny 9P client/server library called
libixp I wrote recently, it is included in the wmii source as
well).

Regards,
-- 
 Anselm R. Garbe  ><><  www.ebrag.de  ><><  GPG key: 0D73F361

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[quanstro]

thanks.

i found "larswm" (http://home.earthlink.net/~lab1701/larswm/)
when poking around.

it appears to incorporate acme layout features into a wm similar
to 9wm. i haven't tried it yet.

- erik

On Thu Feb 23 22:56:45 CST 2006, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> > i can't find a current version of this on the net.
> 
> Alistair Crooks is package-master for NetBSD, his "ssam" is extremely
> likely to be part of the NetBSD "packages" collection.  Try
> "netbsd.org", navigating to the packages is straightforward.
> 
> ++L
> 

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Lucio De Re]

> i can't find a current version of this on the net.

Alistair Crooks is package-master for NetBSD, his "ssam" is extremely
likely to be part of the NetBSD "packages" collection.  Try
"netbsd.org", navigating to the packages is straightforward.

++L

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[yard-ape]

quanstro@quanstro.net wrote:

> yes, there is a stream sam (ssam) written for 9tools:
>
> AUTHOR
>        Conceived  and  written  by  Alistair  Crooks  (agc@uts.amdahl.com,  or
>        agc@westley.demon.co.uk).  I've since found  out  that  Byron  Rakitzis
>        wrote  a similar program, with less functionality, called ss, which was
>        based on Henry Spencer's regular expression code.
>
> i can't find a current version of this on the net.
>
> - erik

Here's his 1.9 at any rate:

http://www.westley.demon.co.uk/software.html

-Derek

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[quanstro]

yes, there is a stream sam (ssam) written for 9tools:

AUTHOR
       Conceived  and  written  by  Alistair  Crooks  (agc@uts.amdahl.com,  or
       agc@westley.demon.co.uk).  I've since found  out  that  Byron  Rakitzis
       wrote  a similar program, with less functionality, called ss, which was
       based on Henry Spencer's regular expression code.

i can't find a current version of this on the net.

- erik

On Thu Feb 23 16:49:40 CST 2006, vir@comtv.ru wrote:
> >
> Are there implementations of "stream sam" and "structural awk" mentioned 
> in Rob Pike's paper?
> --
> Victor
> 

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Victor Nazarov]

Steve Simon wrote:

>>Possibly of interest is the xmlgawk project:
>>    
>>
>
>Sounds to me like an application for these:
>
>	Rob Pike, Structural Regular Expressions
>	http://netlib.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/doc/87/3-se.ps.gz
>
>-Steve
>
>  
>
Are there implementations of "stream sam" and "structural awk" mentioned 
in Rob Pike's paper?
--
Victor

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Bruce Ellis]

trust jim.

brucee

On 2/11/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> don't do that, then. ;-)
>
> On Fri Feb 10 22:37:29 CST 2006, marina@surferz.net wrote:
> > When i complain that the application is poorly designed i often get flak
> > from one of the
> > project managers who manages the team that maintains that mosterpiece.
> >
> > ---- Marina Brown

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[lucio]

> For whatever
> reason, it doesn't matter now, it's all gone pear-shaped
> and the wheels are about to fall off.

Yeah, I don't see a world war coming along to rescue it all any time
soon.

++L

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[jmk]

On Fri Feb 10 09:04:57 EST 2006, wes@village.com wrote:
> ...
> But once in a while something happens that shows that it doesn't have to 
> be that way. Read _Action This Day_ about how WWII was really won by the 
> very smart folks at what is now Britain's GCHQ, including many from 
> allied countries. The thing is, somewhere there has to be a Churchill 
> directing people to be led by people who are smarter than themselves.
> ...

Yes. This has come up in many conversations recently.
The people who are smart and should know better about
computery thingies really dropped the ball and didn't
step up to say the direction was misguided. For whatever
reason, it doesn't matter now, it's all gone pear-shaped
and the wheels are about to fall off.

--jim

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[quanstro]

don't do that, then. ;-)

On Fri Feb 10 22:37:29 CST 2006, marina@surferz.net wrote:
> When i complain that the application is poorly designed i often get flak 
> from one of the
> project managers who manages the team that maintains that mosterpiece.
> 
> ---- Marina Brown

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Feb 10, 2006, at 8:36 PM, Marina Brown wrote:

> When i complain that the application is poorly designed i often get  
> flak from one of the
> project managers who manages the team that maintains that mosterpiece.

Welcome aboard.

Don't ask for stock options :-(

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Marina Brown]

Wes Kussmaul wrote:

> Dave Lukes wrote:
>
>> Aharon Robbins wrote:
>
>
>>  >     When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.
>>
>> Bogus analogy.  Complete the following "saw":
>>    When life hands you a bucket of stale pus, make ... ?
>
>
> ...a petri dish culture that you can study.
>
> It's easy to dismiss Aharon's observation, as it comes from the 
> Montaigne view of life:
>
> "The thing of it is, we must live with the living."
>
> The IT infrastructure has been designed and deployed by people with a 
> median IQ of 121.4 (trust me, I have all the data) because of course 
> it's developed by people smart enough to have a vague idea of what's 
> needed. Not smart enough to do it well, not smart enough to keep it 
> simple -- and not smart enough to understand that doing a job well 
> delivers more satisfaction than does fudding your way into a few extra 
> dollars or a bigger title.
>
> Not making any claims about being smart myself, I can make the 
> following observation: the people on this list are much smarter than 
> those who are responsible for today's pervasive common IT infrastructure.
>
> Smart people will usually be at the alienated right extreme of the 
> bell curve, praised for being smart but not actually listened to.
>
> But once in a while something happens that shows that it doesn't have 
> to be that way. Read _Action This Day_ about how WWII was really won 
> by the very smart folks at what is now Britain's GCHQ, including many 
> from allied countries. The thing is, somewhere there has to be a 
> Churchill directing people to be led by people who are smarter than 
> themselves.
>


Good observations ...  They are really to the point in my life here. I 
spent much of the
day installing windows XP on qemu to avoid using windows at all because 
my company
has a corporate web-app thing that has a combination of flash, 
javascript and activeX
that only seems to run on Internet explorer with the security levels zero'd.

When i complain that the application is poorly designed i often get flak 
from one of the
project managers who manages the team that maintains that mosterpiece.

---- Marina Brown

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[quanstro]

i don't miss the vaxen i used to work on with h29 2400 baud "stonet"
terminals and often a 1+ minute login time. 2400 baud is slow enough
that i used to use ^s/^q as a pager

mt xinu 4.3bvd (sic).

- erik

On Fri Feb 10 21:03:01 CST 2006, jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> Many years ago now, a good friend of mine remarked that
> if we actually made all those whining about the state of things
> now compared to the "good old days" go back to using v7 Unix,
> they would quickly realise that times had actually moved
> forward and there were things they were used to that it didn't
> have and that they really needed. I used v[567] and I've
> ported v7, and I wouldn't go back. From what I understand,
> Plan 9 was an attempt to build on that by saying "this got
> us so far, but times are changing and it won't cut it with
> networks, bitmapped displays, SMP etc, we need a better base".
> That was a long time ago and no one has, to my limited
> non- computer science knowledge, attempted anything similar,
> they're all still working on copying 30 year old technology.
> 
> I don't have an iPod, my mobile phone is 5 years old and I
> turn it on about 4 hours a week and there are many things
> about the 21st century that make me grumpy. But you can't go
> back. You should, however, be careful about how how you
> go forward.
> 
> --jim

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[lucio]

> Would you pick
> XML or ASN.1 if those were the only two options?  If the pointy-haired
> powers that be are mandating one or the other and, ``neither'' isn't in
> the range of possible solutions?

What are the alternatives?  My pick is ASN.1, any time.  You can call
the ITU-T by as many ugly names as you like, but their standards are
considerably more firm than more recent publications.

++L

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> So we're back to an appreciation for simplicity, which I do think
> correlates with that elusive thing we call smarts.

Smarts alone are not enough.  Smarts + experience seems to be the magic 
combinarion.

> Hm, given the clutter in my office, what does that say about... never
> mind.

After being on the receiving end of a snarky comment from a co-worker, a 
sign appeared over my desk:

	If a cluttered workspace is the sign of a cluttered mind,
	What does an empty workspace signify?

BTW, thanks quanstro and Bruce for the scripting hints.  It was the 'X' 
bit I was missing.  Anyway, I finally solved the problem through the use 
of mouse-2 send and tiny bit of awk (without xml!).  I'm still getting 
used to being able to edit in-place and then 'send'ing.  Now that I've 
switched over to using 9term full time this is quickly becoming my 
natural mode of operation.

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Wes Kussmaul]

Skip Tavakkolian wrote:

> the more complex the software, the more support it
> needs.  so the support organism needs the software complexity as its
> reason to exist, or even thrive.  the support organism that also has
> the propensity to invite in more complexity will get bigger - which in
> some corporate structures means more powerful.  

So we're back to an appreciation for simplicity, which I do think 
correlates with that elusive thing we call smarts.

Hm, given the clutter in my office, what does that say about... never mind.


-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the 
serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people 
collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the 
same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the 
serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a 
bit obscure.

                          P.K. Iggy
                          _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                            (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                            and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Bakul Shah]

Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com> writes:
> > From: uriel@cat-v.org
> > Subject: Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'
> > To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> >
> > > to process XML type data in the more traditional Unixy fashion.
> > Oxymoron.
> >
> > uriel
> 
> Not at all.  As the old saw goes,
> 
> 	When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.

Hey, don't knock lemons!  You need vitaminc C a lot more than
all that sugar.  We have to thank the "other" Linus for
helping us see the virtue of this "other" C.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> Some have all those attributes plus some integrity, some don't. Lots of 
> lousy design is the result of deliberate attempts by perhaps "smart" 
> people to control mindshare and lock in customers regardless of whether 
> it makes their lives more difficult.

it could be the product of deliberate action, but i think it can
happen naturally.  the more complex the software, the more support it
needs.  so the support organism needs the software complexity as its
reason to exist, or even thrive.  the support organism that also has
the propensity to invite in more complexity will get bigger - which in
some corporate structures means more powerful.  it's a vicious cycle
until the host dies, or a competitor does slightly better.  squaring
this hypothesis against reality, it seems to match.  it's not
"intelligent design" but a random natural process.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Wes Kussmaul]

Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> I don't think it is only a function of the smarts.  It also has to do
> with "judgement" or "a sense of beauty" or "good taste", or whatever
> describes the sense one innately has or develops through
> experience that says of all the possible ways this is best, and it
> is proven right.

Fair enough. I use "smarts" as a catchword.

Some have all those attributes plus some integrity, some don't. Lots of 
lousy design is the result of deliberate attempts by perhaps "smart" 
people to control mindshare and lock in customers regardless of whether 
it makes their lives more difficult.

My point is that that can change.

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the 
serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people 
collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the 
same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the 
serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a 
bit obscure.

                          P.K. Iggy
                          _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                            (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                            and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[quanstro]

what i originally posted was clear and correct.

i do not think your postings clarified anything.

- erik

On Fri Feb 10 08:21:00 CST 2006, bruce.ellis@gmail.com wrote:
> well if i was doing the echo i would do
> 
>     echo 'X/''/w'
> 
> yes it's 4 but clearer.
> 
> brucee
> 
> On 2/11/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> > if you want to write only the changed files with an rc
> > script, you really do need 4 single quotes in a row.
> >
> > i use the change times on files, so writing only the changed files
> > is important to me.
> >
> > - erik
> >
> > On Fri Feb 10 07:58:51 CST 2006, bruce.ellis@gmail.com wrote:
> > > X w
> > > or
> > > X/'/w
> > >
> > > will suffice
> > > brucee
> > >
> > > On 2/11/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> > > > i'm replying to the wrong message. but to answer the original problem,
> > > > you /can/ script sam -d like this:
> > > >
> > > >        {
> > > >                echo $script
> > > >                echo X:'''':w
> > > >                echo q
> > > >        } | sam -d $filelist
> >

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Skip Tavakkolian]

I don't think it is only a function of the smarts.  It also has to do
with "judgement" or "a sense of beauty" or "good taste", or whatever
describes the sense one innately has or develops through
experience that says of all the possible ways this is best, and it
is proven right.

> The IT infrastructure has been designed and deployed by people with a 
> median IQ of 121.4 (trust me, I have all the data) because of course 
> it's developed by people smart enough to have a vague idea of what's 
> needed. Not smart enough to do it well, not smart enough to keep it 
> simple -- and not smart enough to understand that doing a job well 
> delivers more satisfaction than does fudding your way into a few extra 
> dollars or a bigger title.
> 
> Not making any claims about being smart myself, I can make the following 
> observation: the people on this list are much smarter than those who are 
> responsible for today's pervasive common IT infrastructure.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[quanstro]

important to me. i expect things like "ls -ltr" to give me some idea
of what's changed and when.

On Fri Feb 10 09:19:22 CST 2006, stalker@maths.tcd.ie wrote:
> 
> > i use the change times on files, so writing only the changed files
> > is important to me.
> 
> Important to you or to mk?  Not that I recommend this as a solution
> to the problem of writing only changed files, but I tend to write
> mk recipes like

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[uriel]

>> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:05:55 +0100
>> From: uriel@cat-v.org
>> Subject: Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'
>> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
>>
>> > to process XML type data in the more traditional Unixy fashion.
>> Oxymoron.
>>
>> uriel
> 
> Not at all.  As the old saw goes,
> 
> 	When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.
> 
> Those of us who live in The Real World (tm) sometimes have no choice as to the

"Beware of "the real world".  A speaker's apeal to it is always an
invitation not to challenge his tacit assumptions."
    -- Edsger W. Dijkstr

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[John Stalker]

> i use the change times on files, so writing only the changed files
> is important to me.

Important to you or to mk?  Not that I recommend this as a solution
to the problem of writing only changed files, but I tend to write
mk recipes like

%.dvi:DP false: %.tex %.aux
        touch md5/$target
        md5 $prereq >junk/$target
        while
                ! cmp -s junk/$target md5/$target
        do
                latex $stem.tex </dev/null
                mv junk/$target md5/$target
                md5 $prereq >junk/$target
        done
        rm junk/$target

so that the target is rebuilt if the prerequites have really changed
rather than if their timestamps have.  In the example of LaTeX this
is needed for a variety of reasons stemming from the innate stupidity
of the program, but I've started doing it for pretty much everything.
It's very helpful if, for example, you want to rebuild an old version
of the target.  The md5 and cmp overhead is tolerable for small
projects, but I admit that it scales badly.

ps Sorry for giving the p9p version rather the native.
--
John Stalker
University of Dublin, Trinity College
School of Mathematics

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Dan Cross]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 10:45:34AM +0000, Steve Simon wrote:
> Sounds to me like an application for these:
> 
> 	Rob Pike, Structural Regular Expressions
> 	http://netlib.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/doc/87/3-se.ps.gz

That's part of the story, but again, I don't think it's sufficient.  Don't
get me wrong; you can do a lot with hierarchical data using SRE's, but it
may not be sufficient.  Then again, it may.  It all depends on the problem
at hand.

As for Smart People, XML, Corporate IT, and all the rest....  It's really
true that sometimes you're handed things that you have no control over.
Sometimes you're forced to pick the lesser of two evils.  Would you pick
XML or ASN.1 if those were the only two options?  If the pointy-haired
powers that be are mandating one or the other and, ``neither'' isn't in
the range of possible solutions?  Sometimes, it's not worth fighting those
battles....

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Bruce Ellis]

well if i was doing the echo i would do

    echo 'X/''/w'

yes it's 4 but clearer.

brucee

On 2/11/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> if you want to write only the changed files with an rc
> script, you really do need 4 single quotes in a row.
>
> i use the change times on files, so writing only the changed files
> is important to me.
>
> - erik
>
> On Fri Feb 10 07:58:51 CST 2006, bruce.ellis@gmail.com wrote:
> > X w
> > or
> > X/'/w
> >
> > will suffice
> > brucee
> >
> > On 2/11/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> > > i'm replying to the wrong message. but to answer the original problem,
> > > you /can/ script sam -d like this:
> > >
> > >        {
> > >                echo $script
> > >                echo X:'''':w
> > >                echo q
> > >        } | sam -d $filelist
>

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[quanstro]

if you want to write only the changed files with an rc
script, you really do need 4 single quotes in a row.

i use the change times on files, so writing only the changed files
is important to me.

- erik

On Fri Feb 10 07:58:51 CST 2006, bruce.ellis@gmail.com wrote:
> X w
> or
> X/'/w
> 
> will suffice
> brucee
> 
> On 2/11/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> > i'm replying to the wrong message. but to answer the original problem,
> > you /can/ script sam -d like this:
> >
> >        {
> >                echo $script
> >                echo X:'''':w
> >                echo q
> >        } | sam -d $filelist

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Wes Kussmaul]

Dave Lukes wrote:
> Aharon Robbins wrote:

>  >     When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.
> 
> Bogus analogy.  Complete the following "saw":
>    When life hands you a bucket of stale pus, make ... ?

...a petri dish culture that you can study.

It's easy to dismiss Aharon's observation, as it comes from the 
Montaigne view of life:

"The thing of it is, we must live with the living."

The IT infrastructure has been designed and deployed by people with a 
median IQ of 121.4 (trust me, I have all the data) because of course 
it's developed by people smart enough to have a vague idea of what's 
needed. Not smart enough to do it well, not smart enough to keep it 
simple -- and not smart enough to understand that doing a job well 
delivers more satisfaction than does fudding your way into a few extra 
dollars or a bigger title.

Not making any claims about being smart myself, I can make the following 
observation: the people on this list are much smarter than those who are 
responsible for today's pervasive common IT infrastructure.

Smart people will usually be at the alienated right extreme of the bell 
curve, praised for being smart but not actually listened to.

But once in a while something happens that shows that it doesn't have to 
be that way. Read _Action This Day_ about how WWII was really won by the 
very smart folks at what is now Britain's GCHQ, including many from 
allied countries. The thing is, somewhere there has to be a Churchill 
directing people to be led by people who are smarter than themselves.

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the 
serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people 
collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the 
same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the 
serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a 
bit obscure.

                          P.K. Iggy
                          _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                            (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                            and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Bruce Ellis]

X w
or
X/'/w

will suffice
brucee

On 2/11/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> i'm replying to the wrong message. but to answer the original problem,
> you /can/ script sam -d like this:
>
>        {
>                echo $script
>                echo X:'''':w
>                echo q
>        } | sam -d $filelist
>
> On 2/10/06, Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
> > In article <20060208212850.GK1620@augusta.math.psu.edu> you write:
> > >On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 10:14:53AM -0800, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> > >> The problem with this is the data I want is interspersed with data that
> > >> I don't want.  And the bits I don't want are variable length
> > >> inconsistent multi-line text that is a bitch to filter out of the
> > >> rendered output stream.  It turns out that sam (against the raw HTML)
> > >> was the only tool that was able to do the job.  I just wish I could wrap
> > >> it in a shell script that I could throw at the directory containing all
> > >> the .html files.
> > >
>

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[quanstro]

i'm replying to the wrong message. but to answer the original problem,
you /can/ script sam -d like this:

	{
		echo $script
		echo X:'''':w
		echo q
	} | sam -d $filelist

On 2/10/06, Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
> In article <20060208212850.GK1620@augusta.math.psu.edu> you write:
> >On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 10:14:53AM -0800, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> >> The problem with this is the data I want is interspersed with data that
> >> I don't want.  And the bits I don't want are variable length
> >> inconsistent multi-line text that is a bitch to filter out of the
> >> rendered output stream.  It turns out that sam (against the raw HTML)
> >> was the only tool that was able to do the job.  I just wish I could wrap
> >> it in a shell script that I could throw at the directory containing all
> >> the .html files.
> >

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Bruce Ellis]

yuk

On 2/10/06, Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
> In article <20060208212850.GK1620@augusta.math.psu.edu> you write:
> >On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 10:14:53AM -0800, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> >> The problem with this is the data I want is interspersed with data that
> >> I don't want.  And the bits I don't want are variable length
> >> inconsistent multi-line text that is a bitch to filter out of the
> >> rendered output stream.  It turns out that sam (against the raw HTML)
> >> was the only tool that was able to do the job.  I just wish I could wrap
> >> it in a shell script that I could throw at the directory containing all
> >> the .html files.
> >
> >I'm not talking about rendering, just parsing.  Well, ultimately,
> >what's important is that you get what you need out of the solution, I
> >guess.  Still, regular expressions alone give you part of the story,
> >but not the whole thing.  I submit that the power to actually parse
> >the tokens in the data as opposed to just matching them (even if the
> >regular expression language you're using is powerful enough to match
> >the structure of the document) is more powerful.  But hey, if sam
> >floats your boat, fish on that river!
> >
> >       - Dan C.
>
> Possibly of interest is the xmlgawk project:
>
>        http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/xmlgawk
>
> This is an extended version of GNU Awk with an XML parser module add-on.
> The idea that instead of reading lines, you get XML tokens (tags, fields
> in the tags, and marked-up data).  I am not directly involved in it, but
> it looks like a rather promising alternative for people who would like
> to process XML type data in the more traditional Unixy fashion.
>
> Arnold
> --
> Aharon (Arnold) Robbins --- Pioneer Consulting Ltd.     arnold AT skeeve DOT com
> P.O. Box 354            Home Phone: +972  8 979-0381    Fax: +1 206 350 8765
> Nof Ayalon              Cell Phone: +972 50  729-7545
> D.N. Shimshon 99785     ISRAEL
>

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Dave Lukes]

Aharon Robbins wrote:
 > Not at all.  As the old saw goes,
 >
 >     When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.

Bogus analogy.  Complete the following "saw":
    When life hands you a bucket of stale pus, make ... ?

DaveL

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Aharon Robbins]

> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:05:55 +0100
> From: uriel@cat-v.org
> Subject: Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'
> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
>
> > to process XML type data in the more traditional Unixy fashion.
> Oxymoron.
>
> uriel

Not at all.  As the old saw goes,

	When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.

Those of us who live in The Real World (tm) sometimes have no choice as to the
format the data we must process is received in, or alternatively, the format
in which it must be delivered.  In such a case, I'd rather have a tool that
makes said format palatable to work with.

I happen to agree with rob's view of the whole XML thing.  But if I find myself
in a situation where I have no choice but to work in some kind of XML, then
I'd sure rather turn to an awk-based solution than some gosh-awful mutant
buzzword hybrid.

Arnold

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[uriel]

> to process XML type data in the more traditional Unixy fashion.
Oxymoron.

uriel

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Steve Simon]

> Possibly of interest is the xmlgawk project:

Sounds to me like an application for these:

	Rob Pike, Structural Regular Expressions
	http://netlib.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/doc/87/3-se.ps.gz

-Steve

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Aharon Robbins]

In article <20060208212850.GK1620@augusta.math.psu.edu> you write:
>On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 10:14:53AM -0800, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
>> The problem with this is the data I want is interspersed with data that 
>> I don't want.  And the bits I don't want are variable length 
>> inconsistent multi-line text that is a bitch to filter out of the 
>> rendered output stream.  It turns out that sam (against the raw HTML) 
>> was the only tool that was able to do the job.  I just wish I could wrap 
>> it in a shell script that I could throw at the directory containing all 
>> the .html files.
>
>I'm not talking about rendering, just parsing.  Well, ultimately,
>what's important is that you get what you need out of the solution, I
>guess.  Still, regular expressions alone give you part of the story,
>but not the whole thing.  I submit that the power to actually parse
>the tokens in the data as opposed to just matching them (even if the
>regular expression language you're using is powerful enough to match
>the structure of the document) is more powerful.  But hey, if sam
>floats your boat, fish on that river!
>
>	- Dan C.

Possibly of interest is the xmlgawk project:

        http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/xmlgawk

This is an extended version of GNU Awk with an XML parser module add-on.
The idea that instead of reading lines, you get XML tokens (tags, fields
in the tags, and marked-up data).  I am not directly involved in it, but
it looks like a rather promising alternative for people who would like
to process XML type data in the more traditional Unixy fashion.

Arnold
-- 
Aharon (Arnold) Robbins --- Pioneer Consulting Ltd.	arnold AT skeeve DOT com
P.O. Box 354		Home Phone: +972  8 979-0381	Fax: +1 206 350 8765
Nof Ayalon		Cell Phone: +972 50  729-7545
D.N. Shimshon 99785	ISRAEL

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Micah Stetson]

> boots up in a game.  May be a new game where "scrolls" are
> hints on how to use various OS components.  The user finds
> them, reads them and applies them to solve puzzles.  May be
> a cross between rogue and Physicus and Lego Mindstorm....

How about a version of DROD (http://www.caravelgames.com) with Glenda
instead of Beethro and penguins instead of roaches?  One lone Glenda
with a really big sword outmaneuvering an army of mindless penguins. 
Making the alternate graphics and a hold with Plan 9 tips in the
scrolls/dialogue wouldn't be that hard, we just need to convince
Caravel to port it.

Micah

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Bakul Shah]

Marina Brown <marina@surferz.net> writes:
> I do admit to booting up plan9 under qemu to run sokoban
> and mahjongg. I have played many versions of mahjongg and
> i happen to like the plan9 implementation the most ;-)
> 
> Perhaps the games should be added to the startup for a default
> user to make the OS more appealing to newbies like me ;-)

Perhaps it should be one of the bootup choices of the install
CD.  If the user doesn't type anything for a while the system
boots up in a game.  May be a new game where "scrolls" are
hints on how to use various OS components.  The user finds
them, reads them and applies them to solve puzzles.  May be
a cross between rogue and Physicus and Lego Mindstorm....

And you thought you were joking.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Marina Brown]

Dave Eckhardt wrote:

>>I'm a way out of practice programmer but when i have time
>>i pick at porting some of my favorite games.
>>    
>>
>
>Some games would be great!
>
>Last January I was wearing my Plan 9 t-shirt when we had people
>over for Chinese New Year.  One of my wife's co-workers asked me
>why I was wearing a shirt commemorating a dead OS.
>
>At this year's party he was a little bored, so I let him play
>Andrey's sokoban...  after he was solidly hooked I asked him which
>OS he thought he was using.  That was *much* more persuasive than
>my verbal assurances of the year before that Plan 9 is still a
>going concern.
>
>Two which would be cool:  there's an open-source re-implementation
>of Sid Meier's Civilization; also, an Empire client might be fun.
>
>Dave Eckhardt
>
>  
>
I do admit to booting up plan9 under qemu to run sokoban
and mahjongg. I have played many versions of mahjongg and
i happen to like the plan9 implementation the most ;-)

Perhaps the games should be added to the startup for a default
user to make the OS more appealing to newbies like me ;-)

--- Marina Brown

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Ronald G Minnich]

Federico Benavento wrote:
> On 2/8/06, Marina Brown <marina@surferz.net> wrote:
> 
>>I think the idea of a wish list on the plan9 web page is excellent.
>>I'm a way out of practice programmer but when i have time i pick
>>at porting some of my favorite games.
>>
> 
> 
> see:
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/TODO/index.html

Sorry guys, I forgot this existed.

That idea of mine was entirely well-intentioned, sorry it was not clear.

thanks

ron

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Dave Eckhardt]

> I'm a way out of practice programmer but when i have time
> i pick at porting some of my favorite games.

Some games would be great!

Last January I was wearing my Plan 9 t-shirt when we had people
over for Chinese New Year.  One of my wife's co-workers asked me
why I was wearing a shirt commemorating a dead OS.

At this year's party he was a little bored, so I let him play
Andrey's sokoban...  after he was solidly hooked I asked him which
OS he thought he was using.  That was *much* more persuasive than
my verbal assurances of the year before that Plan 9 is still a
going concern.

Two which would be cool:  there's an open-source re-implementation
of Sid Meier's Civilization; also, an Empire client might be fun.

Dave Eckhardt

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[LiteStar numnums]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 914 bytes --]

>I'd like native limbo.
This and a FFI to and from C with a consistent (read: normal Plan9 style)
api would be
sweet.
Now if I wasn't so busy attempting to get info for the Minix crap at school
& the business at home,
i'd have a project.
--
Nietzsche's first step is to accept what he knows. Atheism for him goes
without saying and is "contructive and
radical". Nietzsche's supreme vocation, so he says, is to provoke a kind of
crisis and a final decision about the
problem of atheism. The world continues on its course at random and there is
nothing final about it. Thus God
is useless, since He wants nothing in particular. If he wanted something --
and here we recognize the traditional
forumlation of the problem of evil -- He would have to assume responsiblity
for "a sum total of pain and inconsistency
which would debase the entire value of being born."
-- Albert Camus, L'Homme révolté

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 973 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Bruce Ellis]

an easy way to get credibility is to write something good
that users like and use.  do it twice.  then you are hooked.

brucee

On 2/9/06, Federico Benavento <benavento@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/8/06, Marina Brown <marina@surferz.net> wrote:
> > I think the idea of a wish list on the plan9 web page is excellent.
> > I'm a way out of practice programmer but when i have time i pick
> > at porting some of my favorite games.
> >
>
> see:
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/TODO/index.html
>
>
> --
> Federico G. Benavento
>

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Federico Benavento]

On 2/8/06, Marina Brown <marina@surferz.net> wrote:
> I think the idea of a wish list on the plan9 web page is excellent.
> I'm a way out of practice programmer but when i have time i pick
> at porting some of my favorite games.
>

see:
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/TODO/index.html


--
Federico G. Benavento

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Marina Brown]

andrey mirtchovski wrote:

>this is perfectly normal. there's a ladder to climb in all open source
>projects and nobody starts at the top. if you go to theo and tell him
>"i want to help", you'll most likely be delegated to the ports tree
>until you prove you're worthy.
>
>
>  
>
I think the idea of a wish list on the plan9 web page is excellent.
I'm a way out of practice programmer but when i have time i pick
at porting some of my favorite games.

----  Marina Brown

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Christoph Lohmann]

Good evening.

Am Wed, 8 Feb 2006 18:11:44 -0700
schrieb andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com>:

> i don't think ron was referring to anybody in specific and i don't
> believe he has seen the TODO list either. the rift you assume exists
> between plan9 developers is largely in your imagination and there have
> been solutions proposed for removing this imaginary barrier, mostly,
> just ask! crying "you didn't see my web page, how dare you!" instead
> of simply pointing towards it is not one of them.

Who cried? The critic was about what some imaginary group of people
should propose, as hints to some people, so they climb up some imagi-
nary ladder, that is seen as natural, but isn't.

It was an overreaction. Next time I will try to ignore at minimum
six useless threads about E-Mail applications, Linux technology or how
acme could save your life, when you are stuck in deep snow, before I
post some critics.

Yes, Sir!

Sincerely,

Christoph

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[andrey mirtchovski]

this is perfectly normal. there's a ladder to climb in all open source
projects and nobody starts at the top. if you go to theo and tell him
"i want to help", you'll most likely be delegated to the ports tree
until you prove you're worthy.

i don't think ron was referring to anybody in specific and i don't
believe he has seen the TODO list either. the rift you assume exists
between plan9 developers is largely in your imagination and there have
been solutions proposed for removing this imaginary barrier, mostly,
just ask! crying "you didn't see my web page, how dare you!" instead
of simply pointing towards it is not one of them.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Christoph Lohmann]

Good day.

Am Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:26:05 -0500
schrieb Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu>:

> Uhh, he didn't mention a ``higher class.''

Read closer.

Sincerely,

Christoph

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Dan Cross]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 01:17:51AM +0100, Christoph Lohmann wrote:
> Not himself, but the 'higher class' he talks about. It does not exist.
> There is already a TODO list and having an elderly regulars' table of
> those, who 'know better', is also not a solution.

Uhh, he didn't mention a ``higher class.''

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Christoph Lohmann]

Good day.

Am Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:03:17 -0500
schrieb Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu>:

> Ron has already sent quite a few patches over the years.  I don't think
> he needs to prove himself to anybody here.

Not himself, but the 'higher class' he talks about. It does not exist.
There is already a TODO list and having an elderly regulars' table of
those, who 'know better', is also not a solution.

Sincerely,

Christoph

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Dan Cross]

On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 11:57:05PM +0100, Christoph Lohmann wrote:
> Send the patch, if you want it.

Ron has already sent quite a few patches over the years.  I don't think
he needs to prove himself to anybody here.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> Maybe we ought to put up some 'street cred' projects for people who
> genuinely want to earn their stripes, but may not know where to
> start. People don't always know what is needed, and what would be a
> good challenge, and would earn some respect. I'm perfectly serious
> here.


Ron, why don't you create a wish list on the Wiki?  When someone picks 
off a project they can annotate the entry with its current status.  I 
think this would be very useful.

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Christoph Lohmann]

Good day.

Am Wed, 08 Feb 2006 14:43:34 -0700
schrieb Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>:

> Maybe we ought to put up some 'street cred' projects for people who 
> genuinely want to earn their stripes, but may not know where to start. 
> People don't always know what is needed, and what would be a good 
> challenge, and would earn some respect. I'm perfectly serious here.

"Sugar for the lower class."

> I'd like an atheros driver. I'd like a way to be able to put data on 
> google maps (I have no idea how this works). I'd like native limbo. Are 
> these good enough?

Send the patch, if you want it.

Sincerely,

Christoph

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Ronald G Minnich]

Dan Cross wrote:

> You need to work on your street cred, son.  Working on some web pages
> and doing some easy ports to Plan 9 or writing a few scripts don't make
> you a guru.  Yet, you're the one consistently posting the snarky little
> replies as if you were one.

Maybe we ought to put up some 'street cred' projects for people who 
genuinely want to earn their stripes, but may not know where to start. 
People don't always know what is needed, and what would be a good 
challenge, and would earn some respect. I'm perfectly serious here.

What qualifies?

I'd like an atheros driver. I'd like a way to be able to put data on 
google maps (I have no idea how this works). I'd like native limbo. Are 
these good enough?

anything else?

ron

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Dan Cross]

On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 07:20:38PM +0100, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> I think sam is a much safer bet than some hideous lib that pretends to
> be capable of parsing (pseudo)HTML.
> 
> Years ago some people tried to write a web browser in python...  some
> years later they gave up, all they had produced was a spec for an XML
> format to store bookmarks.  Quoting boyd: "hysterical."

And I think that you're probably not qualified to make that judgement.

You need to work on your street cred, son.  Working on some web pages
and doing some easy ports to Plan 9 or writing a few scripts don't make
you a guru.  Yet, you're the one consistently posting the snarky little
replies as if you were one.

Please, do us all a favor and stop.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Dan Cross]

On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 10:14:53AM -0800, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> The problem with this is the data I want is interspersed with data that 
> I don't want.  And the bits I don't want are variable length 
> inconsistent multi-line text that is a bitch to filter out of the 
> rendered output stream.  It turns out that sam (against the raw HTML) 
> was the only tool that was able to do the job.  I just wish I could wrap 
> it in a shell script that I could throw at the directory containing all 
> the .html files.

I'm not talking about rendering, just parsing.  Well, ultimately,
what's important is that you get what you need out of the solution, I
guess.  Still, regular expressions alone give you part of the story,
but not the whole thing.  I submit that the power to actually parse
the tokens in the data as opposed to just matching them (even if the
regular expression language you're using is powerful enough to match
the structure of the document) is more powerful.  But hey, if sam
floats your boat, fish on that river!

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Bruce Ellis]

I heard an anecdote many years ago about Bill Joy claiming
he was "gonna right a fortran compiler tonight" and nothing
was ever heard of it again.  Is this story scrambled or can
anyone confirm or deny this?

brucee

On 2/9/06, uriel@cat-v.org <uriel@cat-v.org> wrote:
> http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/language.pdf
>
> I think sam is a much safer bet than some hideous lib that pretends to
> be capable of parsing (pseudo)HTML.
>
> Years ago some people tried to write a web browser in python...  some
> years later they gave up, all they had produced was a spec for an XML
> format to store bookmarks.  Quoting boyd: "hysterical."
>
> uriel
>
> > On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 10:50:22PM -0800, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> >> So I thought, but something's not right.  I can't demonstrate more
> >> until I get to work in the morning.
> >
> > Hmm.  I'm going to make an unpopular but pragmatic suggestion: Don't use
> > sed or sam, but instead, use a language with an HTML parser available.
> > There are some jobs for which regular expressions aren't the best tool;
> > I personally think this is one of them.  Here's a script I posted to
> > USENET years ago to extract data from a table.
> >
> > #!/usr/local/bin/python
> >
> > import sys
> > import htmllib
> > import formatter
> >
> > class MyParser(htmllib.HTMLParser):
> >         def __init__(self, format):
> >                 htmllib.HTMLParser.__init__(self, format)
> >                 self.state = 0
> >
> >         def do_tr(self, data):
> >                 if self.state:
> >                         print htmllib.HTMLParser.save_end(self)
> >                         self.state = 0
> >
> >         def do_td(self, data):
> >                 if self.state:
> >                         print "%s, " % htmllib.HTMLParser.save_end(self),
> >                 self.state = 1
> >                 htmllib.HTMLParser.save_bgn(self)
> >
> > parse = MyParser(formatter.NullFormatter())
> > for file in sys.argv[1:]:
> >         parse.feed(open(sys.argv[1],"r").read())
> > parse.close()
> >
> > I wonder if this even still works.....
> >
> >       - Dan C.
>
>

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[uriel]

http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/language.pdf

I think sam is a much safer bet than some hideous lib that pretends to
be capable of parsing (pseudo)HTML.

Years ago some people tried to write a web browser in python...  some
years later they gave up, all they had produced was a spec for an XML
format to store bookmarks.  Quoting boyd: "hysterical."

uriel

> On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 10:50:22PM -0800, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
>> So I thought, but something's not right.  I can't demonstrate more  
>> until I get to work in the morning.
> 
> Hmm.  I'm going to make an unpopular but pragmatic suggestion: Don't use
> sed or sam, but instead, use a language with an HTML parser available.
> There are some jobs for which regular expressions aren't the best tool;
> I personally think this is one of them.  Here's a script I posted to
> USENET years ago to extract data from a table.
> 
> #!/usr/local/bin/python
> 
> import sys
> import htmllib
> import formatter
> 
> class MyParser(htmllib.HTMLParser):
>         def __init__(self, format):
>                 htmllib.HTMLParser.__init__(self, format)
>                 self.state = 0
> 
>         def do_tr(self, data):
>                 if self.state:
>                         print htmllib.HTMLParser.save_end(self)
>                         self.state = 0
> 
>         def do_td(self, data):
>                 if self.state:
>                         print "%s, " % htmllib.HTMLParser.save_end(self),
>                 self.state = 1
>                 htmllib.HTMLParser.save_bgn(self)
> 
> parse = MyParser(formatter.NullFormatter())
> for file in sys.argv[1:]:
>         parse.feed(open(sys.argv[1],"r").read())
> parse.close()
> 
> I wonder if this even still works.....
> 
> 	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> Hmm.  I'm going to make an unpopular but pragmatic suggestion: Don't use
> sed or sam, but instead, use a language with an HTML parser available.
> There are some jobs for which regular expressions aren't the best tool;
> I personally think this is one of them.  Here's a script I posted to
> USENET years ago to extract data from a table.

The problem with this is the data I want is interspersed with data that 
I don't want.  And the bits I don't want are variable length 
inconsistent multi-line text that is a bitch to filter out of the 
rendered output stream.  It turns out that sam (against the raw HTML) 
was the only tool that was able to do the job.  I just wish I could wrap 
it in a shell script that I could throw at the directory containing all 
the .html files.

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Dan Cross]

On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 10:50:22PM -0800, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> So I thought, but something's not right.  I can't demonstrate more  
> until I get to work in the morning.

Hmm.  I'm going to make an unpopular but pragmatic suggestion: Don't use
sed or sam, but instead, use a language with an HTML parser available.
There are some jobs for which regular expressions aren't the best tool;
I personally think this is one of them.  Here's a script I posted to
USENET years ago to extract data from a table.

#!/usr/local/bin/python

import sys
import htmllib
import formatter

class MyParser(htmllib.HTMLParser):
        def __init__(self, format):
                htmllib.HTMLParser.__init__(self, format)
                self.state = 0

        def do_tr(self, data):
                if self.state:
                        print htmllib.HTMLParser.save_end(self)
                        self.state = 0

        def do_td(self, data):
                if self.state:
                        print "%s, " % htmllib.HTMLParser.save_end(self),
                self.state = 1
                htmllib.HTMLParser.save_bgn(self)

parse = MyParser(formatter.NullFormatter())
for file in sys.argv[1:]:
        parse.feed(open(sys.argv[1],"r").read())
parse.close()

I wonder if this even still works.....

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Feb 7, 2006, at 10:46 PM, geoff@collyer.net wrote:

> Yes, you can drive sam -d non-interactively.  You can also give it
> more than one file name, so you could do

So I thought, but something's not right.  I can't demonstrate more  
until I get to work in the morning.

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[geoff]

Yes, you can drive sam -d non-interactively.  You can also give it
more than one file name, so you could do

	sam -d *.html <<'!'
	X/./ {
	... sam commands to munge the files ...
	}
	!

(modulo `changes out of order' complaints; in that case, issue
multiple X commands).

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

I apologize.

> would make for a modern-day version of ed(1) on Itaniums?

Meant: can I feed commands to sam on stdin (in this post-PDP11 age)?

> I suppose in your second message you might mean 'X' as
> in the X Window System, but I don't see why that would
> fix anything.  If sam -d doesn't work, running samterm (the
> X interface) won't make it start working.

'X' as "in iterate over a list of file names,  as in 'I need to batch  
process a large amount of HTML puke split across several files."

> Completely lost...

Sorry ;-)

Someone generated for me a whole lot of <foo>.html that contain  
benchmark results.  I don't want to cut-n-paste each of the data  
points from the HTML pages.  The only sane alternative needs REs that  
cross \n.  I.e. sam.  Preferably in batch mode, as I have more than a  
few of these files to deal with.  Now that I have fixed my RE and 'x'  
stupidity, I need to solve interactive mode.

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Russ Cox]

> Was there ever any intention that
>
>        sam -d foo < sam.cmds
>
> would make for a modern-day version of ed(1) on Itaniums?
>
> > there are various 64-bit fixes to sam that are
> > in plan 9 but not yet in the p9p code.
>
> It's late, and my brain is off.  I guess this means 'X' is the
> answer.  I suppose I've been looking for an excuse to use it.

Okay, I give up.  I have no idea what you meant
in your first message.  I thought you were asking about
sam not working on Itanium (64-bit) processors.

I suppose in your second message you might mean 'X' as
in the X Window System, but I don't see why that would
fix anything.  If sam -d doesn't work, running samterm (the
X interface) won't make it start working.

Completely lost...
Russ

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Feb 7, 2006, at 9:29 PM, Russ Cox wrote:

> there are various 64-bit fixes to sam that are
> in plan 9 but not yet in the p9p code.

It's late, and my brain is off.  I guess this means 'X' is the  
answer.  I suppose I've been looking for an excuse to use it.

But now that I've had to seriously use sam's command language, I'm  
ready to ditch sed.

--lyndon

P.S.  And this is a pity.  I first used sam on one of the AT&T DMDish  
terminals (hanging off a 3Bxxxx) in the late 80s. I was too caught up  
in emacs at the time to appreciate what I was bitching at.  Live and  
learn I suppose.

Re: [9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Russ Cox]

> Was there ever any intention that
>
>         sam -d foo < sam.cmds
>
> would make for a modern-day version of ed(1) on Itaniums?

there are various 64-bit fixes to sam that are
in plan 9 but not yet in the p9p code.

russ

[9fans] More 'Sam I am'

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

Was there ever any intention that

	sam -d foo < sam.cmds

would make for a modern-day version of ed(1) on Itaniums?

--lyndon

P.S.  (once again, on Unix if it matters)