[9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Ryan Gonzalez]

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https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b

I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and found it interesting.

I found this part particularly neat:

> We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be very difficult to have.

-- 
Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[steve]

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not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?

if so does gcc run under Harvey?

does gcc run under plan9 now?

Steve




> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
> 
> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and found it interesting.
> 
> I found this part particularly neat:
> 
> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be very difficult to have.
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Ryan Gonzalez]

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No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.

On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT, "steve@quintile.net" <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
>not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
>
>if so does gcc run under Harvey?
>
>does gcc run under plan9 now?
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>
>https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>> 
>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
>found it interesting.
>> 
>> I found this part particularly neat:
>> 
>> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
>tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
>modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be
>very difficult to have.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

-- 
Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Axel Belinfante]

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I couldn’t resist looking, and found in http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699 <http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699>

	"Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and clang”.

So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9.

More details, including the feature list below, are at http://harvey-os.org <http://harvey-os.org/>
	
	Features

	• AMD 64 bit
	• Modern, simplified syscall system
	• GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!)
	• Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to change anything else
	• Fast compilation of the whole system
	• All Plan9 userland apps available
	• Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new fileserver, native toolchain and more

I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to change anything else” —
I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey?

The team list contains names well-known on this list...

I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out.

Axel.

> On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.
> 
> On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT, "steve@quintile.net" <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
> 
> if so does gcc run under Harvey?
> 
> does gcc run under plan9 now?
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com <mailto:rymg19@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b <https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b>
>> 
>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and found it interesting.
>> 
>> I found this part particularly neat:
>> 
>> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be very difficult to have.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Rob Pike]

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The appearance of frogs in
https://github.com/Harvey-OS/harvey/blob/master/sys/src/9/port/chan.c makes
it clear this is a port.

-rob


On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Axel Belinfante <axel.belinfante@utwente.nl
> wrote:

> I couldn’t resist looking, and found in
> http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699
>
> "Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and clang”.
>
> So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9.
>
> More details, including the feature list below, are at
> http://harvey-os.org
>
> Features
>
> • AMD 64 bit
> • Modern, simplified syscall system
> • GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!)
> • Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to
> change anything else
> • Fast compilation of the whole system
> • All Plan9 userland apps available
> • Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new fileserver,
> native toolchain and more
>
> I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no need
> to change anything else” —
> I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey?
>
> The team list contains names well-known on this list...
>
> I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out.
>
> Axel.
>
> On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.
>
> On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT, "steve@quintile.net" <steve@quintile.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
>>
>> if so does gcc run under Harvey?
>>
>> does gcc run under plan9 now?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>>
>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
>> found it interesting.
>>
>> I found this part particularly neat:
>>
>> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
>> tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
>> modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be very
>> difficult to have.
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Prof Brucee]

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I hope it's not junk. It is a bit a wiffy.

brucee

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Axel Belinfante <axel.belinfante@utwente.nl
> wrote:

> I couldn’t resist looking, and found in
> http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699
>
> "Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and clang”.
>
> So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9.
>
> More details, including the feature list below, are at
> http://harvey-os.org
>
> Features
>
> • AMD 64 bit
> • Modern, simplified syscall system
> • GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!)
> • Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to
> change anything else
> • Fast compilation of the whole system
> • All Plan9 userland apps available
> • Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new fileserver,
> native toolchain and more
>
> I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no need
> to change anything else” —
> I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey?
>
> The team list contains names well-known on this list...
>
> I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out.
>
> Axel.
>
> On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.
>
> On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT, "steve@quintile.net" <steve@quintile.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
>>
>> if so does gcc run under Harvey?
>>
>> does gcc run under plan9 now?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>>
>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
>> found it interesting.
>>
>> I found this part particularly neat:
>>
>> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
>> tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
>> modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be very
>> difficult to have.
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[a.regenfuss]

Hm, that looks interesting. I like what that they are trying to make plan 9 a bit
more accessible by using familiar programs and closing the gap between modern unix
and the plan 9 ideas. However, I think I'll rather keep vanilla plan 9 or 9front
(rio is still better than X11, sorry).
But nontheless, it's a great idea and I hope they keep up the great work.

adrian
 

Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. Juli 2015 um 00:15 Uhr
Von: "Axel Belinfante" <axel.belinfante@utwente.nl>
An: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@9fans.net>
Betreff: Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

I couldn’t resist looking, and found in http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699

"Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and clang”.

So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9.
More details, including the feature list below, are at http://harvey-os.org[http://harvey-os.org]

Features

• AMD 64 bit
• Modern, simplified syscall system
• GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!)
• Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to change anything else
• Fast compilation of the whole system
• All Plan9 userland apps available
• Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new fileserver, native toolchain and more

I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to change anything else” —
I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey?

The team list contains names well-known on this list...

I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out.

Axel.
 

On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com[rymg19@gmail.com]> wrote: 

No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.
 
On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT, "steve@quintile.net[steve@quintile.net]" <steve@quintile.net[steve@quintile.net]> wrote:
not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
 
if so does gcc run under Harvey?

does gcc run under plan9 now?
 
Steve
 
 
 
On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com[rymg19@gmail.com]> wrote:
 
https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b[https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b]

I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and found it interesting.

I found this part particularly neat:

> We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be very difficult to have.

--
Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
--
Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[steve]

if there was a way to run apt-get on plan9 and run standard Linux tools, like Firefox and thunderbird, and gcc then I would be a very happy old programmer.

I did some work on extending cinap's amazing linuxemu some years ago but modern Linux has evolved to the point where even this becomes very painful. a bsdemu might be easier, but I haven't looked into that.

just being able to run gcc in arm/thumb cross mode would be great. I know kenc will build arm but I need to keep source compatibility with the rest of the team, who use gcc - on windows!

it is still a battle to keep plan9 running at work, though so far, even if I haven't won, I haven't lost either.

-Steve




> On 26 Jul 2015, at 10:35, a.regenfuss@gmx.de wrote:
> 
> 
> Hm, that looks interesting. I like what that they are trying to make plan 9 a bit
> more accessible by using familiar programs and closing the gap between modern unix
> and the plan 9 ideas. However, I think I'll rather keep vanilla plan 9 or 9front
> (rio is still better than X11, sorry).
> But nontheless, it's a great idea and I hope they keep up the great work.
> 
> adrian
>  
> 
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. Juli 2015 um 00:15 Uhr
> Von: "Axel Belinfante" <axel.belinfante@utwente.nl>
> An: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@9fans.net>
> Betreff: Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9
> 
> I couldn’t resist looking, and found in http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699
> 
> "Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and clang”.
> 
> So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9.
> More details, including the feature list below, are at http://harvey-os.org[http://harvey-os.org]
> 
> Features
> 
> • AMD 64 bit
> • Modern, simplified syscall system
> • GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!)
> • Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to change anything else
> • Fast compilation of the whole system
> • All Plan9 userland apps available
> • Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new fileserver, native toolchain and more
> 
> I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to change anything else” —
> I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey?
> 
> The team list contains names well-known on this list...
> 
> I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out.
> 
> Axel.
>  
> 
> On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com[rymg19@gmail.com]> wrote: 
> 
> No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.
>  
> On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT, "steve@quintile.net[steve@quintile.net]" <steve@quintile.net[steve@quintile.net]> wrote:
> not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
>  
> if so does gcc run under Harvey?
> 
> does gcc run under plan9 now?
>  
> Steve
>  
>  
>  
> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com[rymg19@gmail.com]> wrote:
>  
> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b[https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b]
> 
> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and found it interesting.
> 
> I found this part particularly neat:
> 
>> We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be very difficult to have.
> 
> --
> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> --
> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Prof Brucee]

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i was gonna suggest as per rob's post that chan.c was a good place to check
for gcc introduced code. anyone actually going to diff the code or is it
all going to be speculation?

brucee

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 9:01 PM, steve@quintile.net <steve@quintile.net>
wrote:

>
> if there was a way to run apt-get on plan9 and run standard Linux tools,
> like Firefox and thunderbird, and gcc then I would be a very happy old
> programmer.
>
> I did some work on extending cinap's amazing linuxemu some years ago but
> modern Linux has evolved to the point where even this becomes very painful.
> a bsdemu might be easier, but I haven't looked into that.
>
> just being able to run gcc in arm/thumb cross mode would be great. I know
> kenc will build arm but I need to keep source compatibility with the rest
> of the team, who use gcc - on windows!
>
> it is still a battle to keep plan9 running at work, though so far, even if
> I haven't won, I haven't lost either.
>
> -Steve
>
>
>
>
> > On 26 Jul 2015, at 10:35, a.regenfuss@gmx.de wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hm, that looks interesting. I like what that they are trying to make
> plan 9 a bit
> > more accessible by using familiar programs and closing the gap between
> modern unix
> > and the plan 9 ideas. However, I think I'll rather keep vanilla plan 9
> or 9front
> > (rio is still better than X11, sorry).
> > But nontheless, it's a great idea and I hope they keep up the great work.
> >
> > adrian
> >
> >
> > Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. Juli 2015 um 00:15 Uhr
> > Von: "Axel Belinfante" <axel.belinfante@utwente.nl>
> > An: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@9fans.net>
> > Betreff: Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9
> >
> > I couldn’t resist looking, and found in
> http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699
> >
> > "Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and clang”.
> >
> > So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9.
> > More details, including the feature list below, are at
> http://harvey-os.org[http://harvey-os.org]
> >
> > Features
> >
> > • AMD 64 bit
> > • Modern, simplified syscall system
> > • GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!)
> > • Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to
> change anything else
> > • Fast compilation of the whole system
> > • All Plan9 userland apps available
> > • Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new
> fileserver, native toolchain and more
> >
> > I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no need
> to change anything else” —
> > I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey?
> >
> > The team list contains names well-known on this list...
> >
> > I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out.
> >
> > Axel.
> >
> >
> > On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com[
> rymg19@gmail.com]> wrote:
> >
> > No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.
> >
> > On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT, "steve@quintile.net[steve@quintile.net]"
> <steve@quintile.net[steve@quintile.net]> wrote:
> > not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
> >
> > if so does gcc run under Harvey?
> >
> > does gcc run under plan9 now?
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com[
> rymg19@gmail.com]> wrote:
> >
> >
> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b[https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b]
> >
> > I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
> found it interesting.
> >
> > I found this part particularly neat:
> >
> >> We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
> tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
> modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be very
> difficult to have.
> >
> > --
> > Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> > --
> > Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Anthony Martin]

Prof Brucee <prof.brucee@gmail.com> once said:
> i was gonna suggest as per rob's post that chan.c was a good place to check
> for gcc introduced code. anyone actually going to diff the code or is it
> all going to be speculation?

I looked. The diff is basically s/uvlong/uint64_t/; s/MOVL/movl/ and the
addition of some gopher droppings.

  Anthony

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[erik quanstrom]

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[hiro]

Who claimed fast compilation was a motive?
>From what I understand this is all about being able to use gdb for debugging.

It makes sense to me, but it might still be subjective.
If you care I will explain my experience:

Some longer time ago I tried gdb for disassembling some secret binary,
but quickly gave up cause of the complex interface and reverted to
objdump instead. I wasted a lot of time and that made me hate gdb a
lot.

Now, much later I started using gdb again, cause as long as it has
access to the source analyzing coredumps is very easy. It's a better
workflow than my printf() debugging, because the Makefiles of the
project I'm working on are so complex and broken that everybody avoids
compiling (takes too long).
I have seen many complaints in Ron's commit logs about makefiles, too.
I'm fairly certain that for Harvey and Akaros they're pretty much
forced just like me into a coredump-driven development workflow.

tldr: gcc is needed so that we can use gdb so that we don't have to
compile as often so that we can fix bugs faster.

On 7/26/15, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> just speaking for myself, I found the fact that plan 9 was a self contained
> thing to be a must have.  i don't consider the gcc toolchain to be a
> feature.
>
> if "fast compilation" is a feature over plan 9, I'd like to see some
> numbers.
>
> - erik
>
> On Jul 25, 2015 3:15 PM, Axel Belinfante
> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=axel.belinfante@utwente.nl]axel.belinfante@utwente.nl>
> wrote:
>>
>> I couldn’t resist looking, and found
>> in [http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.osnews.com%2Fcomments%2F28699&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGHKFWanYoFNYbSy6In7LAXtMi-tg]http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699
>>
>> "Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and clang”.
>>
>> So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9.
>>
>> More details, including the feature list below, are
>> at [http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fharvey-os.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNErZ4XfGFvsgbhV-uqEiG8K2pSdYQ]http://harvey-os.org
>>
>> Features
>>
>> • AMD 64 bit
>> • Modern, simplified syscall system
>> • GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!)
>> • Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to
>> change anything else
>> • Fast compilation of the whole system
>> • All Plan9 userland apps available
>> • Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new fileserver,
>> native toolchain and more
>>
>> I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no need
>> to change anything else” —
>> I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey?
>>
>> The team list contains names well-known on this list...
>>
>> I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out.
>>
>> Axel.
>>
>>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez
>>> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=rymg19@gmail.com]rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>> No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.
>>
>> On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT,
>> "[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=steve@quintile.net]steve@quintile.net"
>> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=steve@quintile.net]steve@quintile.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
>>>
>>> if so does gcc run under Harvey?
>>>
>>> does gcc run under plan9 now?
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez
>>> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=rymg19@gmail.com]rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2Fthis-is-not-a-monad-tutorial%2Fharvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFKZSymwu8nNoZ6I7kp6PyVvp9A1g]https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>>>>
>>>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
>>>> found it interesting.
>>>>
>>>> I found this part particularly neat:
>>>>
>>>> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
>>>> > tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
>>>> > modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be
>>>> > very difficult to have.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Charles Forsyth]

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On 26 July 2015 at 18:33, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> if "fast compilation" is a feature over plan 9, I'd like to see some
> numbers.


That wasn't the point, I think. The mention of speed was rather that on
fast enough hardware the speed with gcc isn't that bad,
so you can use that. (That misses another point, but that's not relevant
here.)

The aim in using gcc wasn't the speed, but to produce an environment that
was compatible with all the existing software
(not POSIX -- although it says that -- being "POSIX" is both too little and
too much).

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Ryan Gonzalez]

You forgot about my favorite use of gdb:

$ gdb --args a b c
gdb> run
# wait for segfault
gdb> bt
...
gdb> quit


On July 26, 2015 12:54:34 PM CDT, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>Who claimed fast compilation was a motive?
>>From what I understand this is all about being able to use gdb for
>debugging.
>
>It makes sense to me, but it might still be subjective.
>If you care I will explain my experience:
>
>Some longer time ago I tried gdb for disassembling some secret binary,
>but quickly gave up cause of the complex interface and reverted to
>objdump instead. I wasted a lot of time and that made me hate gdb a
>lot.
>
>Now, much later I started using gdb again, cause as long as it has
>access to the source analyzing coredumps is very easy. It's a better
>workflow than my printf() debugging, because the Makefiles of the
>project I'm working on are so complex and broken that everybody avoids
>compiling (takes too long).
>I have seen many complaints in Ron's commit logs about makefiles, too.
>I'm fairly certain that for Harvey and Akaros they're pretty much
>forced just like me into a coredump-driven development workflow.
>
>tldr: gcc is needed so that we can use gdb so that we don't have to
>compile as often so that we can fix bugs faster.
>
>On 7/26/15, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>> just speaking for myself, I found the fact that plan 9 was a self
>contained
>> thing to be a must have.  i don't consider the gcc toolchain to be a
>> feature.
>>
>> if "fast compilation" is a feature over plan 9, I'd like to see some
>> numbers.
>>
>> - erik
>>
>> On Jul 25, 2015 3:15 PM, Axel Belinfante
>>
><[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=axel.belinfante@utwente.nl]axel.belinfante@utwente.nl>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I couldn’t resist looking, and found
>>>
>in [http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.osnews.com%2Fcomments%2F28699&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGHKFWanYoFNYbSy6In7LAXtMi-tg]http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699
>>>
>>> "Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and
>clang”.
>>>
>>> So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9.
>>>
>>> More details, including the feature list below, are
>>>
>at [http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fharvey-os.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNErZ4XfGFvsgbhV-uqEiG8K2pSdYQ]http://harvey-os.org
>>>
>>> Features
>>>
>>> • AMD 64 bit
>>> • Modern, simplified syscall system
>>> • GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!)
>>> • Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need
>to
>>> change anything else
>>> • Fast compilation of the whole system
>>> • All Plan9 userland apps available
>>> • Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new
>fileserver,
>>> native toolchain and more
>>>
>>> I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no
>need
>>> to change anything else” —
>>> I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey?
>>>
>>> The team list contains names well-known on this list...
>>>
>>> I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out.
>>>
>>> Axel.
>>>
>>>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez
>>>> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=rymg19@gmail.com]rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>> No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.
>>>
>>> On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT,
>>> "[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=steve@quintile.net]steve@quintile.net"
>>> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=steve@quintile.net]steve@quintile.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
>>>>
>>>> if so does gcc run under Harvey?
>>>>
>>>> does gcc run under plan9 now?
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez
>>>> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=rymg19@gmail.com]rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>[https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2Fthis-is-not-a-monad-tutorial%2Fharvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFKZSymwu8nNoZ6I7kp6PyVvp9A1g]https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit
>and
>>>>> found it interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> I found this part particularly neat:
>>>>>
>>>>> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well
>known
>>>>> > tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have
>in a
>>>>> > modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9
>would be
>>>>> > very difficult to have.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>

-- 
Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Charles Forsyth]

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On 26 July 2015 at 18:58, Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com> wrote:

> an environment that was compatible with all the existing software


although that's rapidly becoming incompatible with itself. for instance, in
an unrelated forum, someone observes:

"clang provides __attribute__((overloadable)), which enables a limited
version of C++-style name-mangling based polymorphism, so that you don't
have to write a _Generic wrapper for each function."

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[erik quanstrom]

hmm.  neither db nor acid work for you?  I've found acid to be much easier to use than gdb, but on my plan 9 projects a few prints are quicker for me than messing with a debugger.

unless harvey has added core dumps to plan 9, then post trap debugging would be via broken processes not core dumps.

why are you forced into core dump driven development.  that makes it should like the environment isn't an effective on for development.

- erik


On Jul 26, 2015 10:54 AM, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Who claimed fast compilation was a motive? 
> From what I understand this is all about being able to use gdb for debugging. 
>
> It makes sense to me, but it might still be subjective. 
> If you care I will explain my experience: 
>
> Some longer time ago I tried gdb for disassembling some secret binary, 
> but quickly gave up cause of the complex interface and reverted to 
> objdump instead. I wasted a lot of time and that made me hate gdb a 
> lot. 
>
> Now, much later I started using gdb again, cause as long as it has 
> access to the source analyzing coredumps is very easy. It's a better 
> workflow than my printf() debugging, because the Makefiles of the 
> project I'm working on are so complex and broken that everybody avoids 
> compiling (takes too long). 
> I have seen many complaints in Ron's commit logs about makefiles, too. 
> I'm fairly certain that for Harvey and Akaros they're pretty much 
> forced just like me into a coredump-driven development workflow. 
>
> tldr: gcc is needed so that we can use gdb so that we don't have to 
> compile as often so that we can fix bugs faster. 
>
> On 7/26/15, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: 
> > just speaking for myself, I found the fact that plan 9 was a self contained 
> > thing to be a must have.  i don't consider the gcc toolchain to be a 
> > feature. 
> > 
> > if "fast compilation" is a feature over plan 9, I'd like to see some 
> > numbers. 
> > 
> > - erik 
> > 
> > On Jul 25, 2015 3:15 PM, Axel Belinfante 
> > <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=axel.belinfante@utwente.nl]axel.belinfante@utwente.nl> 
> > wrote: 
> >> 
> >> I couldn’t resist looking, and found 
> >> in [http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.osnews.com%2Fcomments%2F28699&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGHKFWanYoFNYbSy6In7LAXtMi-tg]http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699 
> >> 
> >> "Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and clang”. 
> >> 
> >> So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9. 
> >> 
> >> More details, including the feature list below, are 
> >> at [http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fharvey-os.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNErZ4XfGFvsgbhV-uqEiG8K2pSdYQ]http://harvey-os.org 
> >> 
> >> Features 
> >> 
> >> • AMD 64 bit 
> >> • Modern, simplified syscall system 
> >> • GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!) 
> >> • Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to 
> >> change anything else 
> >> • Fast compilation of the whole system 
> >> • All Plan9 userland apps available 
> >> • Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new fileserver, 
> >> native toolchain and more 
> >> 
> >> I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no need 
> >> to change anything else” — 
> >> I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey? 
> >> 
> >> The team list contains names well-known on this list... 
> >> 
> >> I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out. 
> >> 
> >> Axel. 
> >> 
> >>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez 
> >>> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=rymg19@gmail.com]rymg19@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>> 
> >> No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9. 
> >> 
> >> On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT, 
> >> "[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=steve@quintile.net]steve@quintile.net" 
> >> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=steve@quintile.net]steve@quintile.net> wrote: 
> >>> 
> >>> not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc? 
> >>> 
> >>> if so does gcc run under Harvey? 
> >>> 
> >>> does gcc run under plan9 now? 
> >>> 
> >>> Steve 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez 
> >>> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=rymg19@gmail.com]rymg19@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>> 
> >>>> [https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2Fthis-is-not-a-monad-tutorial%2Fharvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFKZSymwu8nNoZ6I7kp6PyVvp9A1g]https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b 
> >>>> 
> >>>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and 
> >>>> found it interesting. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> I found this part particularly neat: 
> >>>> 
> >>>> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known 
> >>>> > tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a 
> >>>> > modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be 
> >>>> > very difficult to have. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> -- 
> >>>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. 
> >> 
> > 
>
>

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Prof Brucee]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5800 bytes --]

I've never understood the fascination with gdb. To me it's just turgid.

I like saying "acid has always worked for me" because it's a fun thing to
say but not only is it painlessly useful it is programmable. stk and leak
are pretty neat.

brucee

On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 5:52 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>
wrote:

> hmm.  neither db nor acid work for you?  I've found acid to be much easier
> to use than gdb, but on my plan 9 projects a few prints are quicker for me
> than messing with a debugger.
>
> unless harvey has added core dumps to plan 9, then post trap debugging
> would be via broken processes not core dumps.
>
> why are you forced into core dump driven development.  that makes it
> should like the environment isn't an effective on for development.
>
> - erik
>
>
> On Jul 26, 2015 10:54 AM, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Who claimed fast compilation was a motive?
> > From what I understand this is all about being able to use gdb for
> debugging.
> >
> > It makes sense to me, but it might still be subjective.
> > If you care I will explain my experience:
> >
> > Some longer time ago I tried gdb for disassembling some secret binary,
> > but quickly gave up cause of the complex interface and reverted to
> > objdump instead. I wasted a lot of time and that made me hate gdb a
> > lot.
> >
> > Now, much later I started using gdb again, cause as long as it has
> > access to the source analyzing coredumps is very easy. It's a better
> > workflow than my printf() debugging, because the Makefiles of the
> > project I'm working on are so complex and broken that everybody avoids
> > compiling (takes too long).
> > I have seen many complaints in Ron's commit logs about makefiles, too.
> > I'm fairly certain that for Harvey and Akaros they're pretty much
> > forced just like me into a coredump-driven development workflow.
> >
> > tldr: gcc is needed so that we can use gdb so that we don't have to
> > compile as often so that we can fix bugs faster.
> >
> > On 7/26/15, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> > > just speaking for myself, I found the fact that plan 9 was a self
> contained
> > > thing to be a must have.  i don't consider the gcc toolchain to be a
> > > feature.
> > >
> > > if "fast compilation" is a feature over plan 9, I'd like to see some
> > > numbers.
> > >
> > > - erik
> > >
> > > On Jul 25, 2015 3:15 PM, Axel Belinfante
> > > <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=axel.belinfante@utwente.nl]axel.belinfante@utwente.nl
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I couldn’t resist looking, and found
> > >> in [
> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.osnews.com%2Fcomments%2F28699&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGHKFWanYoFNYbSy6In7LAXtMi-tg]http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699
> > >>
> > >> "Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and
> clang”.
> > >>
> > >> So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9.
> > >>
> > >> More details, including the feature list below, are
> > >> at [
> http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fharvey-os.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNErZ4XfGFvsgbhV-uqEiG8K2pSdYQ]http://harvey-os.org
> > >>
> > >> Features
> > >>
> > >> • AMD 64 bit
> > >> • Modern, simplified syscall system
> > >> • GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!)
> > >> • Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to
> > >> change anything else
> > >> • Fast compilation of the whole system
> > >> • All Plan9 userland apps available
> > >> • Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new
> fileserver,
> > >> native toolchain and more
> > >>
> > >> I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no
> need
> > >> to change anything else” —
> > >> I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey?
> > >>
> > >> The team list contains names well-known on this list...
> > >>
> > >> I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out.
> > >>
> > >> Axel.
> > >>
> > >>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez
> > >>> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=rymg19@gmail.com]rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >> No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.
> > >>
> > >> On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT,
> > >> "[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=steve@quintile.net]steve@quintile.net"
> > >> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=steve@quintile.net]steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
> > >>>
> > >>> if so does gcc run under Harvey?
> > >>>
> > >>> does gcc run under plan9 now?
> > >>>
> > >>> Steve
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez
> > >>> <[?&cs=wh&v=b&to=rymg19@gmail.com]rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> [
> https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2Fthis-is-not-a-monad-tutorial%2Fharvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFKZSymwu8nNoZ6I7kp6PyVvp9A1g]https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
> > >>>> found it interesting.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I found this part particularly neat:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well
> known
> > >>>> > tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have
> in a
> > >>>> > modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would
> be
> > >>>> > very difficult to have.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
>

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[steve]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2919 bytes --]

don't get me wrong, I don't want gcc, but my employer requires it, and I would rather develop on plan even if I cannot develop for plan9.

I do this at present, my main machine is a pi2, and my gcc, Firefox, and outlook co-processor is a windows laptop. it works, but I resent carting a laptop around.

-Steve




> On 26 Jul 2015, at 18:33, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> 
> just speaking for myself, I found the fact that plan 9 was a self contained thing to be a must have.  i don't consider the gcc toolchain to be a feature. 
> 
> if "fast compilation" is a feature over plan 9, I'd like to see some numbers.
> 
> - erik
> On Jul 25, 2015 3:15 PM, Axel Belinfante <axel.belinfante@utwente.nl> wrote:
> I couldn’t resist looking, and found in http://www.osnews.com/comments/28699
> 
> 	"Harvey is an effort to get the Plan 9 code working with gcc and clang”.
> 
> So, in a way it seems to be a port of Plan 9.
> 
> More details, including the feature list below, are at http://harvey-os.org
> 	
> 	Features
> 
> 	• AMD 64 bit
> 	• Modern, simplified syscall system
> 	• GCC toolchain means you can use gdb(!)
> 	• Compile in Linux or OSX using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to change anything else
> 	• Fast compilation of the whole system
> 	• All Plan9 userland apps available
> 	• Plans to add X11 with rio-like multiplexing, tty driver, new fileserver, native toolchain and more
> 
> I’m intrigued by the “compile … using Harvey's headers and libs, no need to change anything else” —
> I guess that means that it will be easy to “port” stuff to Harvey?
> 
> The team list contains names well-known on this list...
> 
> I must say, it looks quite interesting, worth checking out.
> 
> Axel.
> 
> On 25 Jul 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No clue. I'm guessing it's heavily inspired by Plan 9.
> 
> On July 25, 2015 3:34:13 AM CDT, "steve@quintile.net" <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> not sure what Harvey is... is it just plan9 ported to build on gcc?
> 
> if so does gcc run under Harvey?
> 
> does gcc run under plan9 now?
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 25 Jul 2015, at 01:43, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
> 
> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and found it interesting.
> 
> I found this part particularly neat:
> 
> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be very difficult to have.
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> 

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[hiro]

I'm trying to argue from a Linux point of view.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[erik quanstrom]

wrong list?  ;-)

On Jul 26, 2015 1:47 PM, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to argue from a Linux point of view. 
>
>

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[hiro]

I haven't had enough time with acid yet, indeed printf was always good
enough for 9front.
I personally wouldn't try fixing firefox' memory leaks with acid. And
if you post on ubuntuforums about bugs in mainstream software I'm sure
they won't help you if you say you can only debug with acid, in the
worst case they might call the police, not understanding what acid is.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[erik quanstrom]

On Jul 26, 2015 1:59 PM, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I haven't had enough time with acid yet, indeed printf was always good 
> enough for 9front. 
> I personally wouldn't try fixing firefox' memory leaks with acid

why not?

> if you post on ubuntuforums about bugs in mainstream software I'm sure 
> they won't help you if you say you can only debug with acid, in the 
> worst case they might call the police, not understanding what acid is. 

when i need to run Linux programs, i run linux.

what is the benefit of running firefox on a p9 like system, rather than on linux? p9p does a good job of bringing some p9 goodness to linux. the opposite is also likely to draw blank stares if mentioned in a bug report.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[hiro]

>> I personally wouldn't try fixing firefox' memory leaks with acid
>
> why not?

Same reason you're stating below. I agree with you.

> when i need to run Linux programs, i run linux.

> what is the benefit of running firefox on a p9 like system, rather than on
> linux? p9p does a good job of bringing some p9 goodness to linux. the
> opposite is also likely to draw blank stares if mentioned in a bug report.

I also agree with your question. I guess it's not just me whose mind
is baffled after all.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Aram Hăvărneanu]

GCC is not a very slow C compiler in term of compiled LOC/s (although
the difference in speed between -O0 and -O3 is embarrassing). What
makes compiling Unix software so slow, is the way source code is
organised, headers which include headers, cpp having to generate lots
of code, and all the other Unix crap.

Once I investigated why a 15MLOC project took over an hour to build.
Apparently, on average, each file was processed over 2,000 times;
precompiled headers helped somewhat, but even with precompiled
headers, each header was still individually compiled over 200 times.

I'd expect GCC compiling Plan 9 at a speed reasonably comparable to kencc.

I will refrain making comments on how wise that is, however.

-- 
Aram Hăvărneanu

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Charles Forsyth]

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On 27 July 2015 at 13:08, Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:

> 'd expect GCC compiling Plan 9 at a speed reasonably comparable to kencc.


I used gcc for one of my own OS projects years ago, without all the
#include crud.
It is slow. For one thing, it still(!) produces textual assembly code
(because the PDP-11 compiler did that)
which must then be assembled.

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Charles Forsyth]

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On 27 July 2015 at 14:44, Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com> wrote:

> It is slow.


But it doesn't matter anyway if your aim is to compile a ton of stuff that
only gcc can compile.

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Anthony Sorace]

> erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> 
> when i need to run Linux programs, i run linux.

Yeah, but then you’ve got linux. Now you’ve got two
problems (hah! if only…).

> what is the benefit of running firefox on a p9 like system,
> rather than on linux?

The theory, anyway, is that you could then not have a linux
(or whatever) system. If the emulation bit could be self-
contained enough, a plan9 system with linuxemu would
have a significantly lower maintenance burden than a plan9
system plus a linux system. In theory.

I’ve never understood why the emulation effort picked
linux, though. It seems like the worst possible thing to be
emulating, and I don’t imagine the software support for the
sort of things we’re talking about (for many, it’s pretty
much just a browser) is all that different between Linux and,
say, FreeBSD. Are there a bunch of linux-only apps people
would like to have?

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Charles Forsyth]

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On 27 July 2015 at 15:19, Anthony Sorace <a@9srv.net> wrote:

> (for many, it’s pretty
> much just a browser)
>

One of the reasons mere POSIX isn't enough is that there are many non-POSIX
tendrils that have worked their way throughout the system,
notably d-bus and now systemd, but there are many others, and the "just a
browser" has started to interact with all of them.
https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=388628

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Ryan Gonzalez]

On July 27, 2015 9:19:47 AM CDT, Anthony Sorace <a@9srv.net> wrote:
>> erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>> 
>> when i need to run Linux programs, i run linux.
>
>Yeah, but then you’ve got linux. Now you’ve got two
>problems (hah! if only…).
>
>> what is the benefit of running firefox on a p9 like system,
>> rather than on linux?
>
>The theory, anyway, is that you could then not have a linux
>(or whatever) system. If the emulation bit could be self-
>contained enough, a plan9 system with linuxemu would
>have a significantly lower maintenance burden than a plan9
>system plus a linux system. In theory.
>
>I’ve never understood why the emulation effort picked
>linux, though. It seems like the worst possible thing to be
>emulating, and I don’t imagine the software support for the
>sort of things we’re talking about (for many, it’s pretty
>much just a browser) is all that different between Linux and,
>say, FreeBSD. Are there a bunch of linux-only apps people
>would like to have?

I always thought is was that emulating an open-source application platform is easier than emulating a black box like Wine does, as you can see how things are done and the internal APIs and stuff.


-- 
Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Stanley Lieber]

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in some cases, plan 9's coincidental inability to run modern programs that do unpredictable and undesirable things is a useful feature. mothra, for example, doesn't even handle many html tags, but it also doesn't execute unknown server-supplied code on my terminal. how can i be sure? because the program is small enough to read and understand, and, having done so, i can be reasonably certain that it contains no code to do so. quite aside from having the functions accidentally or surreptitiously enabled, the functions simply don't exist. with most modern "useful" programs (and their dependencies), understanding the code isn't a valid approach to security, because your lifetime is too short a span to read -- much less comprehend -- the contents of the source directory. this is compounded by numerous and constant revisions to already unreadably massive piles of code.

what does a given useful program do? who can really say?

harvey seems interesting, but its main objective seems inextricably tied to throwing the strength of plan 9's simplicity and relative isolation out the window.

sl



On Jul 27, 2015, 10:34 AM, at 10:34 AM, Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 27 July 2015 at 15:19, Anthony Sorace <a@9srv.net> wrote:
>
>> (for many, it’s pretty
>> much just a browser)
>>
>
>One of the reasons mere POSIX isn't enough is that there are many
>non-POSIX
>tendrils that have worked their way throughout the system,
>notably d-bus and now systemd, but there are many others, and the "just
>a
>browser" has started to interact with all of them.
>https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=388628

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Daniel Valio]

Am I the only one that is really bothered by the name?

It doesn't quite bring good things to mind.

On 24.07.15 21:43, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>
> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
> found it interesting.
>
> I found this part particularly neat:
>
> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
> tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
> modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be
> very difficult to have.
>
> --
> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[lucio]

> It doesn't quite bring good things to mind.

Are you suggesting that there are bad things out there with a similar
name?  If so, I hope I'm not the only one who doesn't know about them.

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Ryan Gonzalez]

On July 27, 2015 10:24:37 AM CDT, Daniel Valio <notzmv@gmail.com> wrote:
>Am I the only one that is really bothered by the name?
>
>It doesn't quite bring good things to mind.

What?? The Batman character??

>
>On 24.07.15 21:43, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
>>
>https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>>
>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and 
>> found it interesting.
>>
>> I found this part particularly neat:
>>
>> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
>
>> tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
>
>> modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be 
>> very difficult to have.
>>
>> -- 
>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. 

-- 
Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Nicolas Bercher]

On 27/07/2015 17:03, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
> I always thought is was that emulating an open-source application
> platform is easier than emulating a black box like Wine does, as you
> can see how things are done and the internal APIs and stuff.

Yeah, but you know that Wine Is Not an Emulator! ;-)

https://www.winehq.org/about/

Nicolas

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Daniel Valio]

Lee Harvey Oswald comes to mind to me at least.

In fact, when I was typing "harvey os" into my search bar, "harvey
oswald" was the first autocomplete suggestion.

On 27.07.15 13:48, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
>
> On July 27, 2015 10:24:37 AM CDT, Daniel Valio <notzmv@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Am I the only one that is really bothered by the name?
>>
>> It doesn't quite bring good things to mind.
> What?? The Batman character??
>
>> On 24.07.15 21:43, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
>> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
>>> found it interesting.
>>>
>>> I found this part particularly neat:
>>>
>>>> We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
>>> tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
>>> modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be
>>> very difficult to have.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Skip Tavakkolian]

you are aware of the 9fans' fetish for movies

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042546/

> Lee Harvey Oswald comes to mind to me at least.
>
> In fact, when I was typing "harvey os" into my search bar, "harvey
> oswald" was the first autocomplete suggestion.
>
> On 27.07.15 13:48, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
>>
>> On July 27, 2015 10:24:37 AM CDT, Daniel Valio <notzmv@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Am I the only one that is really bothered by the name?
>>>
>>> It doesn't quite bring good things to mind.
>> What?? The Batman character??
>>
>>> On 24.07.15 21:43, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
>>> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-system-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>>>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
>>>> found it interesting.
>>>>
>>>> I found this part particularly neat:
>>>>
>>>>> We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
>>>> tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
>>>> modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be
>>>> very difficult to have.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Skip Tavakkolian]

and rabbits

> you are aware of the 9fans' fetish for movies
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042546/

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Giacomo Tesio]

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Il 27/Lug/2015 23:47, "Skip Tavakkolian" <9nut@9netics.com> ha scritto:
>
> > you are aware of the 9fans' fetish for movies
>
> and rabbits

...and feticists. ;-)

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Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Mauro Rezzonico]

On 07/27/2015 11:42 PM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> you are aware of the 9fans' fetish for movies
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042546/

         "My mother used to say to me, "Elwood" - she always called me
          Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh-so smart, or
          oh-so pleasant." For years I was smart. I recommend pleasant,
          and you may quote me."
         -- Elwood P. Dowd (portrayed by James Stewart) in Harvey,

Well ... maybe ... this offers a new insight into the matter ...

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_(film)
2. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Harvey_(film)
3. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Harvey_(film)#Elwood_P._Dowd

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Daniel Valio]

I do realize that, of course. It's merely a rather unfortunate
association I can't shake off.

On 27.07.15 22:49, Daryl M wrote:
> I may be showing my age, but Harvey was a 6' tall invisible rabbit.
> "Harvey", 1950, starring James Stewart, Josephine Hull, Peggy Dow
> Due to his insistence that he has an invisible six-foot rabbit for a best
> friend, a whimsical middle-aged man is thought by his family to be insane -
> but he may be wiser than anyone knows.
>
> The description on the Harvey OS web site implies that this is the source of
> the name.
>
> Daryl
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> On July 27, 2015 10:24:37 AM CDT, Daniel Valio <notzmv@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Am I the only one that is really bothered by the name?
>>
>> It doesn't quite bring good things to mind.
> What?? The Batman character??
>
>> On 24.07.15 21:43, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
>> https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-sys
>> tem-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
>>> found it interesting.
>>>
>>> I found this part particularly neat:
>>>
>>>> We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
>>> tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
>>> modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be
>>> very difficult to have.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> --
> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[lucio]

> My mouse on the windows 7 desktop is connected via USB and has no outages.

I still own, but not use - I really ought to - some serial
three-button mice.  I have noi doubt that I would get no outage from
them, too.

And, on a different sidetrack: why is it inconceivable for GCC (or
Clang, for that matter) to be able to bootstrap itself, the way GCC
used to?  Why was it thought sensible to sever that continuity?

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[lucio]

> In general my computer does about exactly what i envisioned 15 years
> ago whilst it was not possible yet.

I should now go into a tirade about the price we pay for the features
the marketing departments are foisting on us, but of course, it is not
all bad (I'm not sure if I can call my Galaxy S5 a cloud or the silver
lining) and what is very good is very, very advanced.

Precisely why we don't want it to become, as it is certainly going to
become "indistinguishable from magic".  If that does not worry you and
you are OK with children who won't even know that there is such a
thing as a machine-dependent "assembler", then no further conversation
is possible.

To me, moving science out of technology (how does it work?) is beyond
dangerous.  Where you can no longer predict the behaviour of
non-deterministic programs, you find yourself in a place far too
similar to Nature, where only the strong survive.

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[Daryl M]

I may be showing my age, but Harvey was a 6' tall invisible rabbit.
"Harvey", 1950, starring James Stewart, Josephine Hull, Peggy Dow
Due to his insistence that he has an invisible six-foot rabbit for a best
friend, a whimsical middle-aged man is thought by his family to be insane -
but he may be wiser than anyone knows.

The description on the Harvey OS web site implies that this is the source of
the name.

Daryl


-----Original Message-----
On July 27, 2015 10:24:37 AM CDT, Daniel Valio <notzmv@gmail.com> wrote:
>Am I the only one that is really bothered by the name?
>
>It doesn't quite bring good things to mind.

What?? The Batman character??

>
>On 24.07.15 21:43, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
>>
>https://medium.com/this-is-not-a-monad-tutorial/harvey-an-operating-sys
>tem-with-plan-9-s-shadow-3081414e5f0b
>>
>> I'm not affiliated with this whatsoever; I just saw it on Reddit and
>> found it interesting.
>>
>> I found this part particularly neat:
>>
>> > We are working in ANSI POSIX environment to have most of well known
>
>> tools and programs that programmers or end users expects to have in a
>
>> modern operating system. Things that for traditional Plan 9 would be
>> very difficult to have.
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

--
Sent from my Nexus 5 with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[hiro]

>> pro tip: only use stable interfaces.
>
> Like what?  W3C, or USB or CPU instruction sets?

This sounds so despairing I'm sorry for you. But to answer your
question, it depends on how you use it:
My mouse on the windows 7 desktop is connected via USB and has no outages.
Subsets of HTML 3/4 are still viewable on every browser I have ever used.
Windows 98 still works on my computer.
So, yes.

In general my computer does about exactly what i envisioned 15 years
ago whilst it was not possible yet.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[lucio]

> open source software is often a moving target.

Amen.

> pro tip: only use stable interfaces.

Like what?  W3C, or USB or CPU instruction sets?

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[hiro]

open source software is often a moving target.
pro tip: only use stable interfaces.

Re: [9fans] Harvey OS: A new OS inspired heavily by Plan 9

[lucio]

> I always thought is was that emulating an open-source application platform is easier than emulating a black box like Wine does, as you can see how things are done and the internal APIs and stuff.

You're right on that score, but emulating continually-changing bloat
isn't really any easier, in both cases the prognosis is infinitely
remote.

Lucio.