* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9
@ 2004-07-06 8:11 YAMANASHI Takeshi
2004-07-06 11:21 ` bituman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread
From: YAMANASHI Takeshi @ 2004-07-06 8:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> > 1) make a new GUI standard for Plan 9
> What do you missing (most)?
need Sun Looking Glass or something?
http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html
Don't you want to break a looking glass, do you?
--
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 8:11 [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 YAMANASHI Takeshi @ 2004-07-06 11:21 ` bituman 2004-07-06 11:52 ` gabriel diaz 2004-07-06 13:14 ` andrey mirtchovski 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: bituman @ 2004-07-06 11:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs >>1) make a new GUI standard for Plan 9 >> >> > > >>What do you missing (most)? >> >> > >need Sun Looking Glass or something? >http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html > >Don't you want to break a looking glass, do you? > > i checked out the video :) nice.. it'd be fine to have for plan9 all i want to add to this todo list: X) web browser. i know there's ip/httpd. but where can i find a lynx links clone? (maybe im just blind and its already somewhere ;) ) PS: one small question: ip/pppd supports gprs? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 11:21 ` bituman @ 2004-07-06 11:52 ` gabriel diaz 2004-07-06 12:14 ` Matthias Teege 2004-07-06 15:20 ` matt 2004-07-06 13:14 ` andrey mirtchovski 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: gabriel diaz @ 2004-07-06 11:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs i think the web browser and graphics toolkit topic have been discussed in the past. iirc the conclusion was that an acme based webbrowser was the desired tool. at the moment i think everybody who want web browsing are using other machines with windows/lunix. gtk?!?!? i don´t think that would fit well on plan9, may be updating libcontrol with more controls is the option and making rio, acme, etc, to work using that lib the way to make the "desktop" (don´t know if that word is correct here) looking more uniform. but all of that sounds a bit big to the busy people of the plan9 community, isn't it? is there anybody with enought force ( or strength?) and time to do things like that? :) gabi On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:21:18 +0200, bituman <bituman@enerla.net> wrote: > >>> 1) make a new GUI standard for Plan 9 >>> >> >>> What do you missing (most)? >>> >> >> need Sun Looking Glass or something? >> http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html >> >> Don't you want to break a looking glass, do you? >> > i checked out the video :) nice.. it'd be fine to have for plan9 > > all i want to add to this todo list: > > X) web browser. i know there's ip/httpd. but where can i find a lynx > links clone? (maybe im just blind and its already somewhere ;) ) > > PS: one small question: ip/pppd supports gprs? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 11:52 ` gabriel diaz @ 2004-07-06 12:14 ` Matthias Teege 2004-07-06 12:23 ` lucio 2004-07-06 15:20 ` matt 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Matthias Teege @ 2004-07-06 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue Jul 6 12:00:02 GMT 2004, gdiaz@ipsoluciones.com wrote: > is there anybody with enought force ( or strength?) and time to do > things like that? :) Hmm, I have the time but my C knowledge is nearly nonexistent. ;-) Matthias ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 12:14 ` Matthias Teege @ 2004-07-06 12:23 ` lucio 2004-07-06 12:33 ` boyd, rounin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-07-06 12:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Hmm, I have the time but my C knowledge is nearly > nonexistent. ;-) No, I don't think you have the time. Learning C is the trivial portion. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 12:23 ` lucio @ 2004-07-06 12:33 ` boyd, rounin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-06 12:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > No, I don't think you have the time. i think you'll run out of sanity before you run out of time. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 11:52 ` gabriel diaz 2004-07-06 12:14 ` Matthias Teege @ 2004-07-06 15:20 ` matt 2004-07-06 15:20 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: matt @ 2004-07-06 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans browser : too complex, waste of time gtk : too complex, waste of time my desires : bluetooth for my 3COM bluetooth dongle more audio devices / different audio subsystem dual monitor support m ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 15:20 ` matt @ 2004-07-06 15:20 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-07 9:11 ` Dave Lukes 2004-07-06 15:39 ` ron minnich 2004-07-07 21:30 ` Nicholas Waples 2 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-06 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > browser : too complex, waste of time > gtk : too complex, waste of time ... > more audio devices / different audio subsystem > dual monitor support And you say a browser is complicated?. Vga and audio... good luck. G. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 15:20 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-07 9:11 ` Dave Lukes 2004-07-07 10:57 ` matt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Dave Lukes @ 2004-07-07 9:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > more audio devices / different audio subsystem<> I haven't looked at the audio stuff yet: I was under the impression that it was basically soundblaster: what do you want that isn't there at the moment, Matt? > dual monitor support Well ... once you've done the dual-head case, you might as well generalise to an NxM matrix (seriously!), so you can define the physical layout (I might want one above the other to save desk space). > And you say a browser is complicated?. It is! Also, a browser is dependent on lots of other stuff. > Vga and audio... If you're careful, you avoid actual <>vga and soundblaster stuff and do it at a level above that<>. e.g. I can imagine a cons type "device" that spreads stuff across multiple screens. You can also simplify things by, for instance, insisting on identical resolutions/depths on all screens. > good luck. Gorka: we _all_ need good luck dealing with all the crazy h/w and s/w that's out there!:-) DaveL. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 9:11 ` Dave Lukes @ 2004-07-07 10:57 ` matt 2004-07-07 16:22 ` Dave Lukes 2004-07-08 23:26 ` vdharani 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: matt @ 2004-07-07 10:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I was under the impression that it was basically soundblaster: > what do you want that isn't there at the moment, Matt? PCI Soundblasters are hens teeth and I've never gotten AC97 to work in soundblaster mode USB audio doesn't always work I have to have a separate machine switched on to play mp3s is all dual monitor - can't ever have enough screen both same resolution would be a bit duff though I do like the NxM approach, be great to have arbitrary monitors plonked around the place I would say that a browser is at least a magnitude of complexity greater as there is too much out of your own control. I wouldn't even mind being forced into a single brand of sound card so long as I could actualyl buy the things m ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 10:57 ` matt @ 2004-07-07 16:22 ` Dave Lukes 2004-07-07 16:58 ` jmk 2004-07-07 21:49 ` matt 2004-07-08 23:26 ` vdharani 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Dave Lukes @ 2004-07-07 16:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > PCI Soundblasters are hens teeth and I've never gotten AC97 to work in soundblaster mode Ahhh: that sounds reason enough! > USB audio doesn't always work Do we know whether it's buggy driver(s) or dodgy h/w? > dual monitor - can't ever have enough screen Dunno about that (have you ever been on a bank trading floor:-), but a second is always useful. The question is: do we treat them as separate screens or as one huge screen? I much prefer the latter, since otherwise you can't have huge windows BUT ... > both same resolution would be a bit duff though If you don't have both screens the same resolution (and colour depth!), then the shenanigans needed to tessellate the screens become tedious. For example, if you slide a big window across the join onto a lower res. screen, you have to either lose some part of the window, or scale it (yuk!). Similarly moving the mouse and drawing windows across the join both become problematical (to say nothing of eyestrain inducing). > I do like the NxM approach, be great to have arbitrary monitors plonked around the place Exactly: when you've got enough width and height in your workplace, you can have 2x2 arrays of 19 inch screens: I've seen that done with X on a Sun, and it's WAAAAAY cool. (Also, if you gotta join them side-by-side, the extra work to do it up-down is not a lot). Dave. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 16:22 ` Dave Lukes @ 2004-07-07 16:58 ` jmk 2004-07-08 10:12 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-07 21:49 ` matt 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: jmk @ 2004-07-07 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > dual monitor - can't ever have enough screen A summer student did dual monitor support about 10 years ago. It was for a previous Plan 9 graphics model. It was done on the Carrera using the Carrera's own framebuffer and an ISA VGA card plugged in to the EISA bus (I think it was a Tseng ET4000 -based card); the framebuffer and VGA card had different resolutions but the same depth. It appeared as one large virtual screen. I saw it demonstrated but don't remember much more about it than that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 16:58 ` jmk @ 2004-07-08 10:12 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-08 11:35 ` boyd, rounin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-08 10:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > A summer student did dual monitor support about 10 years ago. > It was for a previous Plan 9 graphics model. It was done on the My own naive analysis :-). The problem with current graphic model is that it has to be done directly at the level of VGA driver (if I understand it well) or really high level using libdraw and sharing video rectangles and mouse and keyboard events between multiple machines over the net. There are to ways of doing it using hardware. Using a VGA bridge or different cards. Using a bridge means one has to contend with the different ways VGAs use VGA bridges, in which some resources are shared (DAC, registers, resolutions) and some not it is normally limited to the number of video bridges/outputs of the card. That is easy to do for one card model, but difficult in general. It has the advantage of being able to use it with a laptop which is what I use as terminal now :-). I don't know how difficult it is to use multiple VGA cards (even if they are equal). Sharing resources across the net means using more than one CPU and using the net which is costly in money and fan noise. What path would you choose and why?. G. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-08 10:12 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-08 11:35 ` boyd, rounin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-08 11:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > Sharing resources across the net means using more than one CPU and using the net > which is costly in money and fan noise. i agree with andrey. each monitor+vga should be a seperate device and they can be imported like anything else that talks 9P. to group them together as one virtual display should be done by abstraction. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 16:22 ` Dave Lukes 2004-07-07 16:58 ` jmk @ 2004-07-07 21:49 ` matt 2004-07-07 21:53 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-07 22:12 ` andrey mirtchovski 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: matt @ 2004-07-07 21:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> USB audio doesn't always work >Do we know whether it's buggy driver(s) or dodgy h/w? for me it's that USB doesn't even work on the motherboard I use as my terminal I have had audio come out of it with plan9 on a compliant motherboard I seem to recall multi monitor - My expectation would be that each display is a view on to a 2d bitmap and if you want me to shhot for the moon : I should be able to choose the zoom, scale, orientation and rotation of the viewport independently for each display, even if they overlap and at any time where I put my windows and the strain on my eyes should be my concern I never expect it to be done, really it should be the VGA card doing it. I wonder the the matrox parnhelion (sp?) works in plan9, it has 3 VGA outs and iirc pretends in Windows to be one big wide screen I want one anyway so we may yet find out matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 21:49 ` matt @ 2004-07-07 21:53 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-08 2:40 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-07-07 22:12 ` andrey mirtchovski 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Charles Forsyth @ 2004-07-07 21:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >>for me it's that USB doesn't even work on the motherboard I use as my terminal if it's UHCI it might be enough to add the vendor and device IDs to the driver. if it's OHCI it might be enough to do a fair bit of work ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 21:53 ` Charles Forsyth @ 2004-07-08 2:40 ` Kenji Okamoto 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Kenji Okamoto @ 2004-07-08 2:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >>>for me it's that USB doesn't even work on the motherboard I use as my terminal > > if it's OHCI it might be enough to do a fair bit of work I tried once, and gave up, because I did find I had to read thick manual... Kenji ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 21:49 ` matt 2004-07-07 21:53 ` Charles Forsyth @ 2004-07-07 22:12 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:01 ` Jack Johnson 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-07 22:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I never expect it to be done, really it should be the VGA card doing it. > generalize it over several /dev/{draw,mouse,cons} so that you can import another machines' aux/vga-served files and build a random-sized desktop out of however many you've got, not having to depend on dual-head vga cards... i've always wanted to do it, just never had the time/guts :) okay, maybe just /dev/draw, unless you want one of those 'multiple users/single desktop' groupware thingamajigs. andrey ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 22:12 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-07 23:01 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-07 23:12 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:25 ` andrey mirtchovski 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jack Johnson @ 2004-07-07 23:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:12:32 -0600, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> wrote: > okay, maybe just /dev/draw, unless you want one of those 'multiple > users/single desktop' groupware thingamajigs. Somewhere there's an interesting groupware project that does just that. Each user can have his/her own viewport on a single virtual screen, or can organize shared workspace with his/her "neighbors". The workspace can be zoomed out so that the group's work can be seen in a larger context, or windows can be moved into another user's workspace. There's also a similar project somewhere with a large videogame-style table where windows can be passed across/around the table and they orient themselves correctly to the table's edge. -Jack P.S. Made myself chuckle with the "his/her", wondering if there are actually any female Plan 9 users (not counting embedded devices). Any guesses how many Plan 9 users there are? Accounts on sources x 2? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 23:01 ` Jack Johnson @ 2004-07-07 23:12 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:25 ` andrey mirtchovski 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-07 23:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Any guesses how many Plan 9 users there are? Accounts on sources x 2? the actual number is irrelevant since we, as a group, already worship a female deity -- glenda :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 23:01 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-07 23:12 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-07 23:25 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:54 ` jmk ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-07 23:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Jack Johnson wrote: > Any guesses how many Plan 9 users there are? Accounts on sources x 2? > i'd say the number of accounts on sources overestimates the active Plan 9 population by about [ does `{9fs sources; wc -l /n/sources/adm/users} ] a 1300 :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 23:25 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-07 23:54 ` jmk 2004-07-08 7:01 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-08 7:28 ` lucio 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: jmk @ 2004-07-07 23:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Jack Johnson wrote: > Any guesses how many Plan 9 users there are? Accounts on sources x 2? > We usually refer to them as the 9 fans. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 23:25 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:54 ` jmk @ 2004-07-08 7:01 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-08 7:28 ` lucio 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Fco. J. Ballesteros @ 2004-07-08 7:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 106 bytes --] There are users here that don't have sources accounts. Perhaps the same might happen at other sites :-) [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2935 bytes --] From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:25:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.0407071720100.26995@fbsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Jack Johnson wrote: > Any guesses how many Plan 9 users there are? Accounts on sources x 2? > i'd say the number of accounts on sources overestimates the active Plan 9 population by about [ does `{9fs sources; wc -l /n/sources/adm/users} ] a 1300 :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 23:25 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:54 ` jmk 2004-07-08 7:01 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros @ 2004-07-08 7:28 ` lucio 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-07-08 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > i'd say the number of accounts on sources overestimates the active Plan 9 > population by about [ does `{9fs sources; wc -l /n/sources/adm/users} ] > a 1300 :) Yep, they ought to have an expiry date and an e-mail notification. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 10:57 ` matt 2004-07-07 16:22 ` Dave Lukes @ 2004-07-08 23:26 ` vdharani 2004-07-08 18:25 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz ` (3 more replies) 1 sibling, 4 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: vdharani @ 2004-07-08 23:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs >> I was under the impression that it was basically soundblaster: >> what do you want that isn't there at the moment, Matt? > > PCI Soundblasters are hens teeth and I've never gotten AC97 to work in > soundblaster mode > USB audio doesn't always work i recently tried with many audio cards/devices but most of my efforts failed. after carefully going thru the mailing lists, i bought some audio devices. - the first one i tried was USB Sound Blaster (MP3+) Go USB device. plan 9 didnt recognize it. win2k recognized it and was able to play audio through it without any additionaly software. - the second one i tried is Xitel Pro Hifi-Link. plan 9 seemed to recognize it although not consistently. it complained that it cannot set the volume (but i could see /dev/audio and /dev/volume, etc). when i tried to play some audio, i couldnt hear anything. not sure where the problem is. again, this one worked well with win2k without any additional software. - frustrated, i tried with an old soundblaster card (really old full size ISA card) that i had used it earlier. this one played like half-music/half-noise. not sure if i should have tried other options but i didnt proceed further. - next, i used a half size ISA soundblaster card. luckily, i noticed that the bios(?) displayed the irq and dma channels. i configured accordingly and it worked fine. - next, i used another old half size PCI soundblaster (i think it is SB16 PCI) card. this just didnt work. after going thru the details, i realized that this is ENSONIQ PCI sound card actually (ensoniq was bought by creative?) that i have had troubles with earlier also. yes, getting the audio to work in plan 9 is very troublesome. if someone knows how to get the USB audio working in plan 9, please let me know. thanks dharani ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-08 23:26 ` vdharani @ 2004-07-08 18:25 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-08 23:43 ` vdharani 2004-07-08 18:34 ` Sape Mullender ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-08 18:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > > if someone knows how to get the USB audio working in plan 9, please let me > know. We are using here Genius usb speakers. Nemo did work on the driver (I think mainly to be able to recognize the buttons they have for the volume), though I don't know if the changes reached sources. G. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-08 18:25 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-08 23:43 ` vdharani 2004-07-08 18:43 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: vdharani @ 2004-07-08 23:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > >> >> if someone knows how to get the USB audio working in plan 9, please let >> me >> know. > > We are using here Genius usb speakers. Nemo did work on the driver (I > think mainly to be > able to recognize the buttons they have for the volume), though I don't > know if the changes > reached sources. can you tell me the model no. and any other details with it? thanks dharani ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-08 23:43 ` vdharani @ 2004-07-08 18:43 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-08 18:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> >>> >>> if someone knows how to get the USB audio working in plan 9, please let >>> me >>> know. >> >> We are using here Genius usb speakers. Nemo did work on the driver (I >> think mainly to be >> able to recognize the buttons they have for the volume), though I don't >> know if the changes >> reached sources. > > can you tell me the model no. and any other details with it? > The model is SP-M06U they are Genius USB speakers. I have made a diff with our usb directory and they are the same. So any change nemo made must be on sources. G. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-08 23:26 ` vdharani 2004-07-08 18:25 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-08 18:34 ` Sape Mullender 2004-07-09 5:19 ` lucio 2004-07-10 2:43 ` vdharani 3 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Sape Mullender @ 2004-07-08 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > if someone knows how to get the USB audio working in plan 9, please let me > know. I wrote the first cut at the USB audio driver. There is a standard for USB audio that some devices obey. Our driver implements a subset of that standard. The standard specifies a bunch of audio components inside a USB audio device. There are USB inputs and outputs, speakers, microphones, line-in, line-out, and other ports, volume controls, treble/bass controls, switches, mixers, equalizers and so on. The list is endless. Each component connects to other components. When starting up, you need to read the `descriptors' for each of the components, find out the interconnections and discover the internal topology (if you want to know which volume control controls playback volume, you've got to study the topology). Buttons on a USB device are usually just buttons that you can read. You have to find out what the buttons mean by reading more descriptors. Writing a generic USB audio driver that can tackle arbitrary USB devices is not a trivial task, especially if you only have one or two devices to try out on. I can successfully drive Philips Model DSS 370/17 USB speakers, the Xitel AN-1, Xitel MD and Edirol UA-3. I tried a Roland device that turnen out to be completely non standard, haven't tried anything else. Sape ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-08 23:26 ` vdharani 2004-07-08 18:25 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-08 18:34 ` Sape Mullender @ 2004-07-09 5:19 ` lucio 2004-07-09 5:48 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 8:45 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-10 2:43 ` vdharani 3 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-07-09 5:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > - the first one i tried was USB Sound Blaster (MP3+) Go USB device. plan 9 > didnt recognize it. win2k recognized it and was able to play audio through > it without any additionaly software. Is anyone else interested in the USB side of Plan 9? Well, forsyth and jmk excluded, I have little doubt they are. I believe a good case can be made to concentrate on USB as the preferred interface for Plan 9 (yes, I know that vendors break the standard more often than not, but I believe they will document the breakage if properly persuaded :-) and that we have the skills and interests here to make progress in that direction. And Plan 9 is as close to ideal for the task as one can get. In fact, in the light of rminnich's suggestions, it would make sense to define a mini-OS for USB off the Plan 9 base and I'd be interested in spawning a separate mailing list (member posts only, while we're at it) to investigate this. Somehow, I feel that the main 9fans list would dilute the effort (it's also a cynic's paradise and that is not constructive, for all the entertainment value). Anyone else feels this way? Then 9usb would seem an appropriate name and OHCI and EHCI would be amongst the objectives. Lobbying the USB org and the vendors would also be a useful goal, I think. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 5:19 ` lucio @ 2004-07-09 5:48 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 6:05 ` lucio 2004-07-09 12:45 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 8:45 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Geoff Collyer @ 2004-07-09 5:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I'm not sure that a mini-OS makes sense; I'd rather just see the standard USB support improve. A good first step would be to gather together all the available USB documentation, starting with the actual on-the-bus protocols and programming the host interfaces (OHCI, UHCI, etc.). That will be a fearsome pile, alas. The first obstacle to using USB for storage devices is that USB 1 is slow and USB 2 (the original USB 2, not the USB 1 that has been renamed to USB 2) is fast enough but requires new code to run OHCI interfaces (yes, that's redundant). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 5:48 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-07-09 6:05 ` lucio 2004-07-09 9:15 ` Geoff Collyer ` (2 more replies) 2004-07-09 12:45 ` ron minnich 1 sibling, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-07-09 6:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I'm not sure that a mini-OS makes sense; I'd rather just see the > standard USB support improve. A good first step would be to gather > together all the available USB documentation, starting with the actual > on-the-bus protocols and programming the host interfaces (OHCI, UHCI, > etc.). That will be a fearsome pile, alas. I have such a thing, the paper version is not even luggable. > The first obstacle to using USB for storage devices is that USB 1 is > slow and USB 2 (the original USB 2, not the USB 1 that has been > renamed to USB 2) is fast enough but requires new code to run OHCI > interfaces (yes, that's redundant). Huh?! You are not serious, are you? I was under the impression that matching the 480Mhz bus speed of 2.1 would be hard to do, what with the need to poll devices. But I am not speaking form a position of knowledge, most of what I know is very superficial. What I did figure out, is that 2.1 uses EHCI and falls back to OHCI for the slower speeds. It makes it look like OHCI suffices, but then the speed is nowhere near as fast as the real thing. Good enough for a suprprising number of products, but one feels a little cheated. I know NetBSD is still developing EHCI but seem to have a working version of OHCI (and UHCI, of course). I don't know where Linux is at, or Windows, for that matter. BTW, the Bluetooth spec (for comparison purposes) is 1200 pages, which is not trivial. Fortunately, that includes details the average developers won't need, but it is still a bit much, specially when my immediate interest is to drive a USB/Bluetooth device :-( As for the mini-OS, it is a very vague idea, but it caught my imagination. My foggy image is of a xen-like thing at the core of things and the guest OSes knowing how to talk to each other in a 9P fashion. Is that totally absurd? ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 6:05 ` lucio @ 2004-07-09 9:15 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 9:25 ` lucio 2004-07-09 22:51 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-09 12:46 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 16:57 ` Jack Johnson 2 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Geoff Collyer @ 2004-07-09 9:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I'm afraid that I am serious about USB 2 needing OCHI code (unless the OCHI interface is compatible with the UCHI interface, but I can't believe we'd be so lucky with PC hardware). I haven't been tracking USB recently, so I hadn't heard about 2.1 and ECHI, but my understanding is that UHCI can only drive USB 1 devices, and that USB 2 devices require OHCI interfaces to get the increased speed (480Mb/s for 2.0 also). I suppose one could look at the *BSDs to see how different the various USB interfaces are. The USB folks haven't quite got around to re-inventing IBM 360 channel programs, as far as I know, but they're getting there. I suppose somebody will eventually have the clever idea of a simple, direct I/O interface addressed as though it were memory. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 9:15 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-07-09 9:25 ` lucio 2004-07-09 10:11 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 22:51 ` Charles Forsyth 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-07-09 9:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I'm afraid that I am serious about USB 2 needing OCHI code (unless the > OCHI interface is compatible with the UCHI interface, but I can't > believe we'd be so lucky with PC hardware). I haven't been tracking > USB recently, so I hadn't heard about 2.1 and ECHI, but my > understanding is that UHCI can only drive USB 1 devices, and that USB > 2 devices require OHCI interfaces to get the increased speed (480Mb/s > for 2.0 also). I suppose one could look at the *BSDs to see how > different the various USB interfaces are. As I read the spec, a 2.0/2.1 (maybe I got this last one wrong - in fact, it is USB 1.1 and USB 2.0) controller has to be able to address 1.1 devices and it seems that implementations do this by providing a 1.1 controller (OHCI seems to be the norm, I don't think it is superior to UHCI) as well as a 2.0 controller. The latter is apparently EHCI exclusively. I have only encountered this on PCI buses where it seems to me that the OHCI device stands independently of the EHCI one. As for getting clever, I think the desire to spawn new industries dovetails too well with the idea of standardising everything and the kitchen sink into a single norm. Thus simplicity is not the objective. At least not until the economics change. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 9:25 ` lucio @ 2004-07-09 10:11 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 10:26 ` [9fans] A Discipline of Programming lucio 2004-07-09 10:34 ` [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 lucio 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Geoff Collyer @ 2004-07-09 10:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Too many acronyms and it's been a while since I read USB docs. I think OHCI and UHCI were competing USB 1 interfaces. One was from Intel and appears on lots of motherboards; I'm guessing that that's UHCI, since that's what Plan 9 currently supports. EHCI must be the USB 2 interface I was thinking of. I started a proposal for sane software interfaces to hardware. I don't understand the fetish for software controller and bus interfaces. From my perspective, that's all peripheral hardware overhead and not of much real interest to software, at least in the common case. I'd like to have essentially the same interface to a disk drive, whether it's reached via ISA and IDE or PCI and SCSI or PCI and USB. And I really don't care who makes the SCSI card. All the stuff between the OS and the device is just plumbing. If we built household plumbing the way we build computer systems, you'd have to know the intimate details of every elbow joint between the sewer and your toilet in order to flush it. On another topic, A Discipline of Programming isn't that old; its copyright date is 1976. I inherited my copy from a friend who found it impenetrable. I didn't get very far with it either. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* [9fans] A Discipline of Programming 2004-07-09 10:11 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-07-09 10:26 ` lucio 2004-07-09 16:11 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-09 10:34 ` [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 lucio 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-07-09 10:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > On another topic, A Discipline of Programming isn't that old; its > copyright date is 1976. I inherited my copy from a friend who found > it impenetrable. I didn't get very far with it either. Could this be a New World/Old World issue? I found the book hard to assimilate, but the individual topics (I no longer have my copy) extremely interesting. I assumed I did not have sufficient theoretical background to make the most of it. The more pragmatic New World approach to programming, epitomised by the C language, is much more approachable, but has its own drawbacks (I suspect that Perl is precisely where that road leads). No doubt there is a middle road, but it is not in widespread use yet (Limbo?). ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A Discipline of Programming 2004-07-09 10:26 ` [9fans] A Discipline of Programming lucio @ 2004-07-09 16:11 ` Jack Johnson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jack Johnson @ 2004-07-09 16:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lucio, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:26:31 +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote: > No doubt there is a middle road, but it is not in widespread use yet > (Limbo?). It's a stretch of the imagination to call me a programmer, and I'm not familiar with the book, but I think there are good examples out there of the middle of the road, and Limbo is one. I used to program in Oberon (which is less popular in the New World, especially back when I was doing it), and certain aspects of using it that I always enjoyed I find in Java and Limbo and a handful of other languages now, and even languages like Python bring an interesting flavor to the mix. It's not so much the middle of the road, but that so much lands firmly either in the practical or the theorhetical that when you find something well done *and* handy it's a novelty. I think the C represented in Plan 9 is not the C you find elsewhere (or at least anymore), and the Plan 9 folk (philosophy?) has done a nice job of striking that balance. Even some of the earlier trash-talking around the Links web browser code comes back to this subjective idea of what C is and should be. Unfortunately, the practicality of the New World also means that we don't always value history, because next week it'll be Visual Basic 2008 and GTK++ with all of it's inherited baggage, and a thousand otherwise bright programmers will either reinvent the wheel to avoid the horrors (or the history), or slap another patch on the middens of the previous generation to keep the wheel turning. -Jack ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 10:11 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 10:26 ` [9fans] A Discipline of Programming lucio @ 2004-07-09 10:34 ` lucio 2004-07-09 11:19 ` Nigel Roles 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-07-09 10:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I think OHCI and UHCI were competing USB 1 interfaces. One was from > Intel and appears on lots of motherboards; I'm guessing that that's > UHCI, since that's what Plan 9 currently supports. EHCI must be the > USB 2 interface I was thinking of. I'm sure there are others whose knowledge is greater than mine, but they must be asleep as no one has shouted at me yet :-) I have both UHCI and OHCI specs (and EHCI, believe or not). I haven't yet been able to read both (either, really, I only superficially read the UHCI one) and so I don't know how they differ: Universal (Intel) and Open (Compaq, of all names, but all USB designers at the time seem to have had a hand in this one). I have a feeling that OHCI has superseded UHCI in practice, possibly because of its appearance in all EHCI implementations. But I'm guessing and my experience is not very broad. As for EHCI, by volume the specification does not seem much greater than OHCI, but I'm sure there lurks some serious complication somewhere in its innards. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 10:34 ` [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 lucio @ 2004-07-09 11:19 ` Nigel Roles 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Nigel Roles @ 2004-07-09 11:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote: >>I think OHCI and UHCI were competing USB 1 interfaces. One was from >>Intel and appears on lots of motherboards; I'm guessing that that's >>UHCI, since that's what Plan 9 currently supports. EHCI must be the >>USB 2 interface I was thinking of. >> >> > >I'm sure there are others whose knowledge is greater than mine, but >they must be asleep as no one has shouted at me yet :-) > >I have both UHCI and OHCI specs (and EHCI, believe or not). I haven't >yet been able to read both (either, really, I only superficially read >the UHCI one) and so I don't know how they differ: Universal (Intel) >and Open (Compaq, of all names, but all USB designers at the time seem >to have had a hand in this one). I have a feeling that OHCI has >superseded UHCI in practice, possibly because of its appearance in all >EHCI implementations. But I'm guessing and my experience is not very >broad. > >As for EHCI, by volume the specification does not seem much greater >than OHCI, but I'm sure there lurks some serious complication >somewhere in its innards. > > > OHCI has not superceded UHCI. It's simply that UHCI came first and was designed by Intel so appeared in the chipsets first. OHCI came later, and took longer to make silicon. VIA in particular made OHCI based chips, so bit by bit OHCI took off. It is a better specification, requiring less activity in the interrupt handlers to decide what to do. Also, bandwidth limiting (if you want to get into that) is easier to do with OHCI. Or, rather, UHCI is missing a level of sophistication compared to OHCI, so the first step in writing a UHCI driver is to introduce some OHCI-like structures to make up the deficit. There is no fundamental reason why UHCI style silicon could not support USB 2.0, if you turn the clock speed up. I imagine, though I don't know, that those organisations keen to promote USB 2.0 just preferred to develop OHCI because the already had silicon IP in that style. I've not looked at EHCI, though I doubt there is much which changes things. I've written an OHCI driver for non PCI (i.e. embedded) silicon for an operating system not unlike Plan 9; it's not mine to give away. The first thing I would lay my hands on is a USB bus analyser. Really, honestly, you will save an order of magnitude in development time and your sanity. Despite the bad impression early drivers gave (i.e. Win95), USB is easy. It does what is says on the tin, and there are few gotchas. The bus just works. However handling hot plugging, and attachment of device specific drivers in a manner which is bomb-proof is harder. Unless things have changed recently, the Plan 9 approach with the namespace and usbd is too simplistic on account of having been developed in the early days of USB when things were very clean. Choosing which of the multiple interfaces and configurations available to use is unfortunately unavoidable, so I have felt for a time that a new driver architecture is required, whether or not the underlying hardware is UHCI, OHCI, EHCI, or just ICKY. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 9:15 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 9:25 ` lucio @ 2004-07-09 22:51 ` Charles Forsyth 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Charles Forsyth @ 2004-07-09 22:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 925 bytes --] >>I'm afraid that I am serious about USB 2 needing OCHI code (unless the >>OCHI interface is compatible with the UCHI interface, but I can't >>believe we'd be so lucky with PC hardware). OHCI is significantly different from UHCI. both do slightly odd things. you get over it, in time. >>USB 2.0, if you turn the clock speed up. I imagine, though I don't >>know, that those organisations keen to promote USB 2.0 just preferred >>to develop OHCI because the already had silicon IP in that style. i suspect the problem with using UHCI is the patents/licence, in other words the deal from Intel for all those nasty clone makers, hence the O for Open in OHCI. that's what i remember, but it might be wrong. >>I've written an OHCI driver for non PCI (i.e. embedded) silicon for an >>operating system not unlike Plan 9; it's not mine to give away. The first i'll see if i can. could save some time if so. [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2886 bytes --] From: Geoff Collyer <geoff@collyer.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:15:55 -0700 Message-ID: <a5b7387715fe312d3bc8aca750a89758@collyer.net> I'm afraid that I am serious about USB 2 needing OCHI code (unless the OCHI interface is compatible with the UCHI interface, but I can't believe we'd be so lucky with PC hardware). I haven't been tracking USB recently, so I hadn't heard about 2.1 and ECHI, but my understanding is that UHCI can only drive USB 1 devices, and that USB 2 devices require OHCI interfaces to get the increased speed (480Mb/s for 2.0 also). I suppose one could look at the *BSDs to see how different the various USB interfaces are. The USB folks haven't quite got around to re-inventing IBM 360 channel programs, as far as I know, but they're getting there. I suppose somebody will eventually have the clever idea of a simple, direct I/O interface addressed as though it were memory. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 6:05 ` lucio 2004-07-09 9:15 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-07-09 12:46 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 16:57 ` Jack Johnson 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2004-07-09 12:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lucio, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote: > As for the mini-OS, it is a very vague idea, but it caught my > imagination. My foggy image is of a xen-like thing at the core of > things and the guest OSes knowing how to talk to each other in a 9P > fashion. Is that totally absurd? that's the idea, and I think it is quite intriguing. I'm hoping to have the Xen port done but Xen 2.0 is coming out, interfaces are changing, so I have some rework to do. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 6:05 ` lucio 2004-07-09 9:15 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 12:46 ` ron minnich @ 2004-07-09 16:57 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-09 20:39 ` ron minnich 2004-07-10 2:30 ` vdharani 2 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jack Johnson @ 2004-07-09 16:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lucio, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:05:52 +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote: > What I did figure out, is that 2.1 uses EHCI and falls back to OHCI > for the slower speeds. It makes it look like OHCI suffices, but then > the speed is nowhere near as fast as the real thing. Good enough for > a suprprising number of products, but one feels a little cheated. I > know NetBSD is still developing EHCI but seem to have a working > version of OHCI (and UHCI, of course). I don't know where Linux is > at, or Windows, for that matter. > > BTW, the Bluetooth spec (for comparison purposes) is 1200 pages, which > is not trivial. Fortunately, that includes details the average > developers won't need, but it is still a bit much, specially when my > immediate interest is to drive a USB/Bluetooth device :-( > > As for the mini-OS, it is a very vague idea, but it caught my > imagination. My foggy image is of a xen-like thing at the core of > things and the guest OSes knowing how to talk to each other in a 9P > fashion. Is that totally absurd? There's an interesting interview with one of the Apple engineers that mentions some of his ideas surrounding Rendezvous / zeroconf and the idea that 10Mbit Ethernet chipsets are cheaper than USB controllers and easier to program. Rather than having USB, he thinks it would be nice to have another Ethernet jack and a mini hub or switch to replace your USB hub and your keyboard, mouse, printer, etc. autoconfigure on a network local to your box, speak open protocols, and use a single cabling system. In that kind of environment, I could easily see Plan 9 or Inferno as the embedded OS for a suite of networked devices, and even that might be overkill. Though it doesn't help in the short term, I would much rather see something like a CerfCube (even running WinCE) with all my USB devices plugged into it and then imported into my Plan 9 system rather than deal with the local USB chipsets and standards. Let someone with cash deal with the mess and just end-run the problem. -Jack ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 16:57 ` Jack Johnson @ 2004-07-09 20:39 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 20:43 ` boyd, rounin ` (2 more replies) 2004-07-10 2:30 ` vdharani 1 sibling, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2004-07-09 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs; +Cc: lucio On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Jack Johnson wrote: > > There's an interesting interview with one of the Apple engineers that > mentions some of his ideas surrounding Rendezvous / zeroconf and the > idea that 10Mbit Ethernet chipsets are cheaper than USB controllers > and easier to program. Rather than having USB, he thinks it would be > nice to have another Ethernet jack and a mini hub or switch to replace > your USB hub and your keyboard, mouse, printer, etc. autoconfigure on > a network local to your box, speak open protocols, and use a single > cabling system. yes, USB is a train wreck and an unnecessary one at that. All they had to do was add power wires to enet and all would have been well. But we're stuck with USB. Look around and you can see all the junk running on it. It would be nice if Plan 9 could play. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:39 ` ron minnich @ 2004-07-09 20:43 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-09 20:49 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 20:51 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-09 20:52 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-09 21:52 ` Nigel Roles 2 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-09 20:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > yes, USB is a train wreck and an unnecessary one at that. All they had to > do was add power wires to enet and all would have been well. yup. aren't there two spare on an RJ-45 or am i thinking ISDN S/T bus? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:43 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-09 20:49 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 20:52 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-12 12:10 ` OT: " Dave Lukes 2004-07-09 20:51 ` Jack Johnson 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2004-07-09 20:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, boyd, rounin wrote: > yup. aren't there two spare on an RJ-45 or am i thinking ISDN S/T bus? yes, the trick is making it all work right with the hardware on the boards. But it was possible. Universal Serial Bus can be scrambled to spell: Hubris 'R Us. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:49 ` ron minnich @ 2004-07-09 20:52 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-12 12:10 ` OT: " Dave Lukes 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-09 20:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > yes, the trick is making it all work right with the hardware on the > boards. But it was possible. yeah, simple X-base-T hack. > Universal Serial Bus can be scrambled to spell: Hubris 'R Us. utter disaster. although i do like my USB 256Mb flash disk, but i'm ignoring that USB is involved. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* OT: Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:49 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 20:52 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-12 12:10 ` Dave Lukes 2004-07-12 14:34 ` ron minnich 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Dave Lukes @ 2004-07-12 12:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs ron minnich wrote: > Universal Serial Bus can be scrambled to spell: Hubris 'R Us. <anorak type="anagram"> No it can't: no "H":-). However "Universal Serial Bus" *is* an anagram of any of: Unreliable ass virus. Leases ruin rival bus. I err. USA sell vain bus. Rule a rival business. USA slur: "Evil Serbian". Evil: Ban USA rules, Sir! Evil USA burns Israel. Re USSR: USA be villain. USA villain buses err. Russia is vulnerable. Sir, USA is vulnerable. ... :-). </anorak> Dave. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-12 12:10 ` OT: " Dave Lukes @ 2004-07-12 14:34 ` ron minnich 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2004-07-12 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Dave Lukes wrote: > ron minnich wrote: > > > Universal Serial Bus can be scrambled to spell: Hubris 'R Us. > > <anorak type="anagram"> > No it can't: no "H":-). yes, well, I figure 'somebody' would catch my little error. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:43 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-09 20:49 ` ron minnich @ 2004-07-09 20:51 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-09 20:54 ` boyd, rounin ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jack Johnson @ 2004-07-09 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:43:45 +0200, boyd, rounin <boyd@insultant.net> wrote: > > yes, USB is a train wreck and an unnecessary one at that. All they had to > > do was add power wires to enet and all would have been well. > > yup. aren't there two spare on an RJ-45 or am i thinking ISDN S/T bus? Two spare pair, actually. And there's an official standard for power over Ethernet: IEEE802.3af -Jack ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:51 ` Jack Johnson @ 2004-07-09 20:54 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-09 21:03 ` Axel Belinfante 2004-07-09 21:42 ` Jason Gurtz 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-09 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > Two spare pair, actually. And there's an official standard for power > over Ethernet: IEEE802.3af wel, there's a niche market. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:51 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-09 20:54 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-09 21:03 ` Axel Belinfante 2004-07-10 0:30 ` Dan Cross 2004-07-10 2:23 ` vdharani 2004-07-09 21:42 ` Jason Gurtz 2 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Axel Belinfante @ 2004-07-09 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > > > yes, USB is a train wreck and an unnecessary one at that. All they had to > > > do was add power wires to enet and all would have been well. > > > > yup. aren't there two spare on an RJ-45 or am i thinking ISDN S/T bus? > > Two spare pair, actually. And there's an official standard for power > over Ethernet: IEEE802.3af For what it's worth: the wireless access points on our campus somehow get power over the ethernet cable. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 21:03 ` Axel Belinfante @ 2004-07-10 0:30 ` Dan Cross 2004-07-10 2:23 ` vdharani 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2004-07-10 0:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Axel Belinfante <Axel.Belinfante@cs.utwente.nl> writes: > > Two spare pair, actually. And there's an official standard for power > > over Ethernet: IEEE802.3af > > For what it's worth: the wireless access points on our campus > somehow get power over the ethernet cable. So do a lot of IP phones. - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 21:03 ` Axel Belinfante 2004-07-10 0:30 ` Dan Cross @ 2004-07-10 2:23 ` vdharani 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: vdharani @ 2004-07-10 2:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs >> > > yes, USB is a train wreck and an unnecessary one at that. All they >> had to >> > > do was add power wires to enet and all would have been well. >> > >> > yup. aren't there two spare on an RJ-45 or am i thinking ISDN S/T >> bus? >> >> Two spare pair, actually. And there's an official standard for power >> over Ethernet: IEEE802.3af > > For what it's worth: the wireless access points on our campus > somehow get power over the ethernet cable. ---^----- basically, still the access point will have some kind of power adapter except that the DC wires are connected to the unused wires in ethernet cable. the advantages are the access point need not have, say, AC outlet closer to its location and there is only one wire going to the box. thanks dharani ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:51 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-09 20:54 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-09 21:03 ` Axel Belinfante @ 2004-07-09 21:42 ` Jason Gurtz 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Jason Gurtz @ 2004-07-09 21:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 7/9/2004 16:51, Jack Johnson wrote: > On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:43:45 +0200, boyd, rounin <boyd@insultant.net> wrote: >> yup. aren't there two spare on an RJ-45 or am i thinking ISDN S/T bus? > > Two spare pair, actually. And there's an official standard for power > over Ethernet: IEEE802.3af Excepting 1000Base-T which uses all 4 pair for data. Guess the af thingy won't work there. ~Jason -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:39 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 20:43 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-09 20:52 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-09 20:54 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-11 14:04 ` matt 2004-07-09 21:52 ` Nigel Roles 2 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-09 20:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Look around and you can see all the junk running on it. sometimes the things running on it are just too weird: http://www.raymondsnest.com/flick/archives/tooth1-thumb.jpg wonder why the dependency on USB? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:52 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-09 20:54 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-11 14:04 ` matt 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-09 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > wonder why the dependency on USB? warm-ish (sic) swap? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:52 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-09 20:54 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-11 14:04 ` matt 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: matt @ 2004-07-11 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > wonder why the dependency on USB? It's common practice ship USB connectors for charging batteries USB connectors on computers are semi-ubiquitous whereas shipping a rechargable toothbrush with one can plug in to an electricty outlet anywhere in the world would be more of a challenge. I have 2 phones, bluetooth headset & a PDA here that use USB for charging. m ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* RE: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 20:39 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 20:43 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-09 20:52 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-09 21:52 ` Nigel Roles 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Nigel Roles @ 2004-07-09 21:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > yes, USB is a train wreck and an unnecessary one at that. All they > had to do was add power wires to enet and all would have been well. > > But we're stuck with USB. Look around and you can see all the > junk running > on it. It would be nice if Plan 9 could play. > > ron Ethernet interfaces still cost more than usb interfaces all this time later. CF cards for my camera have USB built in; that simply would not happen if ethernet was used. At the time, the 1.2mbps interface was available on 8051 silicon for free. USB could address many devices through very low cost hubs, at a time when ethernet hubs were very costly. Now, USB 2.0 offers 480mbps from $20 host controllers. How much for the equivalent gigabit ethernet interface and switch? You might regard it as a train wreck, but the technical requirement and demand was and still is there. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 16:57 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-09 20:39 ` ron minnich @ 2004-07-10 2:30 ` vdharani 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: vdharani @ 2004-07-10 2:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > There's an interesting interview with one of the Apple engineers that > mentions some of his ideas surrounding Rendezvous / zeroconf and the > idea that 10Mbit Ethernet chipsets are cheaper than USB controllers > and easier to program. Rather than having USB, he thinks it would be > nice to have another Ethernet jack and a mini hub or switch to replace > your USB hub and your keyboard, mouse, printer, etc. autoconfigure on > a network local to your box, speak open protocols, and use a single > cabling system. I used to think even serial port should be replaced with ethernet port. It would be the usual ethernet port except that it will be a seperate circuit (like RS232) in the box and its utility is debugging/monitoring, etc. The ethernet device itself could be specific to the purpose (that is simpler than the robust ones) and a simple, seperate driver could drive it. That way one need not hunt for the right cables for the serial port, go thru the configuration hassle, or worry about speed. May be it is already in practice. I dont know. thanks dharani ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 5:48 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 6:05 ` lucio @ 2004-07-09 12:45 ` ron minnich 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2004-07-09 12:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Geoff Collyer wrote: > I'm not sure that a mini-OS makes sense; I'd rather just see the > standard USB support improve. it was more of a "now that you have virtual machines you could do this" idea. I have no idea if it makes sense. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 5:19 ` lucio 2004-07-09 5:48 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-07-09 8:45 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-09 9:09 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-07-09 9:30 ` lucio 1 sibling, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Fco. J. Ballesteros @ 2004-07-09 8:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lucio, 9fans > Is anyone else interested in the USB side of Plan 9? Well, forsyth > and jmk excluded, I have little doubt they are. I am. We have a student proyect to write an initial version for a usb bt device. We have included some HID devices, including processing for a touch screen, a little bit of improvement for usb mouse devices and usb keyboards. I think I sent it all to sources. In any case, I'll be writting drivers as I need them. If anyone else is going that way, I'm willing to help depending on my time availability. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 8:45 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros @ 2004-07-09 9:09 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-07-09 9:12 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-09 9:30 ` lucio 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Kenji Okamoto @ 2004-07-09 9:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > for a usb bt device. What is this device? I've thought you are in diving this summer, too. Kenji ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 9:09 ` Kenji Okamoto @ 2004-07-09 9:12 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-09 10:01 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-09 9:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> for a usb bt device. > > What is this device? > > I've thought you are in diving this summer, too. Bluetooth dongle. G. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 9:12 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-09 10:01 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-09 11:16 ` boyd, rounin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Fco. J. Ballesteros @ 2004-07-09 10:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> I've thought you are in diving this summer, too. You can bet. I'll become a divemaster this summer :-) Sadly, my aladdin does not run Plan 9, so this might be off topic. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 10:01 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros @ 2004-07-09 11:16 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-09 16:45 ` Skip Tavakkolian 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-09 11:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > Sadly, my aladdin does not run Plan 9, so this might > be off topic. i did hear that intel put a wireless web brower thing in a surfboard. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 11:16 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-09 16:45 ` Skip Tavakkolian 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2004-07-09 16:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> Sadly, my aladdin does not run Plan 9, so this might >> be off topic. > > i did hear that intel put a wireless web brower thing in a surfboard. is it prone to wipe out? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 8:45 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-09 9:09 ` Kenji Okamoto @ 2004-07-09 9:30 ` lucio 2004-07-09 9:59 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-07-09 9:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I am. We have a student proyect to write an initial version > for a usb bt device. We have included some HID devices, including > processing for a touch screen, a little bit of improvement for usb mouse > devices and usb keyboards. I think I sent it all to sources. > In any case, I'll be writting drivers as I need them. If anyone else > is going that way, I'm willing to help depending on my time availability. What I would dearly like to see is a forum where USB+Plan 9 related issues are discussed as they arise so that interested parties do not go about reinventing USB wheels. The final product is great, but the learning that goes into it oughtn't to be lost. Mind you, I'm only repeating what EJ Dijkstra suggested in 1969 or thereabouts ("A Discipline of Programming"). But I certainly would appreciate an archived mailing list as a record of developments. I'm assuming that the Plan 9 developers would find little solace in any existing USB mailing lists. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 9:30 ` lucio @ 2004-07-09 9:59 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Fco. J. Ballesteros @ 2004-07-09 9:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lucio, 9fans > What I would dearly like to see is a forum where USB+Plan 9 related > issues are discussed as they arise so that interested parties do not > go about reinventing USB wheels. The final product is great, but the > learning that goes into it oughtn't to be lost. Go ahead, I think that this list can be used for that. It's a 9fans issue, isn't it? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-08 23:26 ` vdharani ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2004-07-09 5:19 ` lucio @ 2004-07-10 2:43 ` vdharani 2004-07-09 22:41 ` Charles Forsyth 3 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: vdharani @ 2004-07-10 2:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs btw, does anyone know of a good book on USB. preferably, it should introduce the concept well and also be useful for working on the USB driver. any help appreciated. thanks dharani ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-10 2:43 ` vdharani @ 2004-07-09 22:41 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-09 22:43 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-10 4:25 ` ron minnich 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Charles Forsyth @ 2004-07-09 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 982 bytes --] i found the standards themselves fine for all that. i did look at a book but it didn't notice the ambiguity in the endpoint definition either, and the book won't help you write the code for OHCI. it might even mislead: as with PCMCIA, there's a peculiar terminology and assumed structure to device interfaces that doesn't necessarily match the way the software might choose to see it. it's a bit like books that tell you that BSD sockets are the only way to do networking. it's not as bad as books that told you that OSI was any way to do networking. i think my main moans about USB would be that the raw protocol and interfaces are tolerable, but neither UHCI nor OHCI are the way i'd choose to see those, for different reasons; also that the device description and manufacturer-independent driver approach didn't work out in the end. perhaps the latter has improved since i last dealt with it. in any case, it's there, growing, and needs to be dealt with. [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2986 bytes --] From: vdharani@infernopark.com To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:43:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <32593.192.11.226.116.1089427413.squirrel@www.infernopark.com> btw, does anyone know of a good book on USB. preferably, it should introduce the concept well and also be useful for working on the USB driver. any help appreciated. thanks dharani ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 22:41 ` Charles Forsyth @ 2004-07-09 22:43 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-10 4:25 ` ron minnich 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Charles Forsyth @ 2004-07-09 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 31 bytes --] sorry, i forgot to list EHCI. [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 6465 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 982 bytes --] i found the standards themselves fine for all that. i did look at a book but it didn't notice the ambiguity in the endpoint definition either, and the book won't help you write the code for OHCI. it might even mislead: as with PCMCIA, there's a peculiar terminology and assumed structure to device interfaces that doesn't necessarily match the way the software might choose to see it. it's a bit like books that tell you that BSD sockets are the only way to do networking. it's not as bad as books that told you that OSI was any way to do networking. i think my main moans about USB would be that the raw protocol and interfaces are tolerable, but neither UHCI nor OHCI are the way i'd choose to see those, for different reasons; also that the device description and manufacturer-independent driver approach didn't work out in the end. perhaps the latter has improved since i last dealt with it. in any case, it's there, growing, and needs to be dealt with. [-- Attachment #2.1.2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2986 bytes --] From: vdharani@infernopark.com To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:43:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <32593.192.11.226.116.1089427413.squirrel@www.infernopark.com> btw, does anyone know of a good book on USB. preferably, it should introduce the concept well and also be useful for working on the USB driver. any help appreciated. thanks dharani ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-09 22:41 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-09 22:43 ` Charles Forsyth @ 2004-07-10 4:25 ` ron minnich 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2004-07-10 4:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Charles Forsyth wrote: > in any case, it's there, growing, and needs to be dealt with. sounds like a case of ringworm. ron p.s. sorry, too hard to resist. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 15:20 ` matt 2004-07-06 15:20 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz @ 2004-07-06 15:39 ` ron minnich 2004-07-06 15:41 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-07 21:30 ` Nicholas Waples 2 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2004-07-06 15:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 matt@proweb.co.uk wrote: > my desires : > bluetooth for my 3COM bluetooth dongle > more audio devices / different audio subsystem > dual monitor support seems like we will need some sort of modules sometime. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 15:39 ` ron minnich @ 2004-07-06 15:41 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-06 15:44 ` ron minnich 2004-07-07 5:46 ` lucio 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-06 15:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > seems like we will need some sort of modules sometime. hmm, dunno. i think brucee said, at some point, that research inferno had 'em. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 15:41 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-07-06 15:44 ` ron minnich 2004-07-06 16:19 ` C H Forsyth 2004-07-07 5:46 ` lucio 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2004-07-06 15:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, boyd, rounin wrote: > > seems like we will need some sort of modules sometime. > > hmm, dunno. > > i think brucee said, at some point, that research inferno had 'em. which brings up another issue. How come (he said naively) we still have the inferno/plan 9 split? I never did figure that one out. I was pretty clueless about the whole business, though. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 15:44 ` ron minnich @ 2004-07-06 16:19 ` C H Forsyth 0 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: C H Forsyth @ 2004-07-06 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >>How come (he said naively) we still have the inferno/plan 9 split? I never >>did figure that one out. I was pretty clueless about the whole business, >>though. although quite a lot of the kernel code is indeed the same or similar, especially now, at least on the pc, clearly related, and i/we increasingly get them to interact with fewer gateways, the upper architectures are actually rather different in principle. bits have gone back and forth between them below that, where sensible, for quite a long time, and you never know what might show up next. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 15:41 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-06 15:44 ` ron minnich @ 2004-07-07 5:46 ` lucio 2004-07-07 10:56 ` Bruce Ellis 1 sibling, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-07-07 5:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > i think brucee said, at some point, that research inferno had 'em. Yeah, we keep hearing about them, but no one is making any attempt at releasing the details so one can progress with it. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 5:46 ` lucio @ 2004-07-07 10:56 ` Bruce Ellis 2004-07-07 17:56 ` C H Forsyth 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2004-07-07 10:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lucio, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs well i have no idea what to do. my personal inferno base is derived from the original '96 beta. diff'ing it with VN code just gives me headaches. it continues to work well on many devices - the original dis files still run-anywhere. ask me ... is it fun running inferno on a ps2. answer, yes. aske me ... can i give you the code. well, if i understood either license then i'd give you a better answer. brucee lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote: >>i think brucee said, at some point, that research inferno had 'em. > > > Yeah, we keep hearing about them, but no one is making any attempt at > releasing the details so one can progress with it. > > ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 10:56 ` Bruce Ellis @ 2004-07-07 17:56 ` C H Forsyth 2004-07-07 18:09 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: C H Forsyth @ 2004-07-07 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >>well, if i understood either license >>then i'd give you a better answer. i take the usual jaundiced view of someone that with others has spent much time and treasure getting something sprung out of expensive trade-secret/product status, and spending even more time and treasure on it: yes, yes, it's not the GPL or BSD or MIT or ..., but especially when we now don't even charge for it, they should be bloody grateful they got it at all. nevertheless, each time someone complains in public or private i dutifully trot off and look again at the inferno licence(s) and frankly i see little difference in complexity between our Liberal one and any other, including Plan 9's Lucent Public one. it follows a standard licence form with with Licence Grant and Licence Restrictions/Conditions, and generally those are the key bits. 1.1 you can adapt it; 1.2 you can distribute it as source or binary provided you keep the licence and notices attached; 1.3 you can offer support etc. but that's nothing to do with us; make up your own agreement. clause 2, the Conditions, is similar in intent to parts of the GPL in requesting fair play: a recipient that uses what we provide as Free software is required to reciprocate (but only to the extent he further distributes things, as opposed to private use). its phrasing is tighter to prevent some known abuses of the GPL (dynamically-loaded binary modules, services only on a network.) there's probably a Plain English award to be had for simplifying it. i don't think we're being especially difficult. actually, there's a bigger potential glitch in this case, but it's nothing to do with Plan 9 so i'd better stop discussing it here! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 17:56 ` C H Forsyth @ 2004-07-07 18:09 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-07 18:59 ` andrey mirtchovski 0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread From: Fco. J. Ballesteros @ 2004-07-07 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > especially when we now don't even charge for it, they should be bloody grateful > they got it at all We all are. That's for sure. But there will always be people paying more attention to licensing issues than to the system or the code itself. I suspect that's because they're not capable of understand or rework the latter two. I only ask myself why they did not become lawyers instead of engineers... (Hmm, perhaps they did ;-) ). I'd suggest just to skip this kind of comments, since they are mostly noise in the list, and just keep up the good work. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 18:09 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros @ 2004-07-07 18:59 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:30 ` Bruce Ellis 2004-07-08 7:16 ` lucio 0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-07 18:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I'd suggest just to skip this kind of comments, since they are > mostly noise in the list, and just keep up the good work. will brucee release his sources? i want to see the good work he's kept up for so long :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 18:59 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-07 23:30 ` Bruce Ellis 2004-07-08 7:16 ` lucio 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2004-07-07 23:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I will try and find time to put together a distribution. I'm rather busy at the moment but it should be done. brucee andrey mirtchovski wrote: >>I'd suggest just to skip this kind of comments, since they are >>mostly noise in the list, and just keep up the good work. > > > will brucee release his sources? > > i want to see the good work he's kept up for so long :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-07 18:59 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:30 ` Bruce Ellis @ 2004-07-08 7:16 ` lucio 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-07-08 7:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > will brucee release his sources? > > i want to see the good work he's kept up for so long :) Maybe he should just release the diffs relative to the then release of whatever (I haven't even figured out if it's Inferno or Plan 9, but the VN reference suggests Inferno) and shut us all up. Then we'll see what mettle the mailing list harbours. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 15:20 ` matt 2004-07-06 15:20 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-06 15:39 ` ron minnich @ 2004-07-07 21:30 ` Nicholas Waples 2 siblings, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: Nicholas Waples @ 2004-07-07 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > dual monitor support Im currently having a go at this on the nvidia cards. Each head has its own view of the framebuffer, so it shouldnt be too hard. I can get either head working separately (as well as panning), so its just a matter of doing both at the same time now. Nick. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 2004-07-06 11:21 ` bituman 2004-07-06 11:52 ` gabriel diaz @ 2004-07-06 13:14 ` andrey mirtchovski 1 sibling, 0 replies; 85+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2004-07-06 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > X) web browser. i know there's ip/httpd. but where can i find a lynx > links clone? (maybe im just blind and its already somewhere ;) ) http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/links/ andrey ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2004-07-12 14:34 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 85+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2004-07-06 8:11 [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 YAMANASHI Takeshi 2004-07-06 11:21 ` bituman 2004-07-06 11:52 ` gabriel diaz 2004-07-06 12:14 ` Matthias Teege 2004-07-06 12:23 ` lucio 2004-07-06 12:33 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-06 15:20 ` matt 2004-07-06 15:20 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-07 9:11 ` Dave Lukes 2004-07-07 10:57 ` matt 2004-07-07 16:22 ` Dave Lukes 2004-07-07 16:58 ` jmk 2004-07-08 10:12 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-08 11:35 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-07 21:49 ` matt 2004-07-07 21:53 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-08 2:40 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-07-07 22:12 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:01 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-07 23:12 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:25 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:54 ` jmk 2004-07-08 7:01 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-08 7:28 ` lucio 2004-07-08 23:26 ` vdharani 2004-07-08 18:25 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-08 23:43 ` vdharani 2004-07-08 18:43 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-08 18:34 ` Sape Mullender 2004-07-09 5:19 ` lucio 2004-07-09 5:48 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 6:05 ` lucio 2004-07-09 9:15 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 9:25 ` lucio 2004-07-09 10:11 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-07-09 10:26 ` [9fans] A Discipline of Programming lucio 2004-07-09 16:11 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-09 10:34 ` [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9 lucio 2004-07-09 11:19 ` Nigel Roles 2004-07-09 22:51 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-09 12:46 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 16:57 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-09 20:39 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 20:43 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-09 20:49 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 20:52 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-12 12:10 ` OT: " Dave Lukes 2004-07-12 14:34 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 20:51 ` Jack Johnson 2004-07-09 20:54 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-09 21:03 ` Axel Belinfante 2004-07-10 0:30 ` Dan Cross 2004-07-10 2:23 ` vdharani 2004-07-09 21:42 ` Jason Gurtz 2004-07-09 20:52 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-09 20:54 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-11 14:04 ` matt 2004-07-09 21:52 ` Nigel Roles 2004-07-10 2:30 ` vdharani 2004-07-09 12:45 ` ron minnich 2004-07-09 8:45 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-09 9:09 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-07-09 9:12 ` Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz 2004-07-09 10:01 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-09 11:16 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-09 16:45 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2004-07-09 9:30 ` lucio 2004-07-09 9:59 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-10 2:43 ` vdharani 2004-07-09 22:41 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-09 22:43 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-07-10 4:25 ` ron minnich 2004-07-06 15:39 ` ron minnich 2004-07-06 15:41 ` boyd, rounin 2004-07-06 15:44 ` ron minnich 2004-07-06 16:19 ` C H Forsyth 2004-07-07 5:46 ` lucio 2004-07-07 10:56 ` Bruce Ellis 2004-07-07 17:56 ` C H Forsyth 2004-07-07 18:09 ` Fco. J. Ballesteros 2004-07-07 18:59 ` andrey mirtchovski 2004-07-07 23:30 ` Bruce Ellis 2004-07-08 7:16 ` lucio 2004-07-07 21:30 ` Nicholas Waples 2004-07-06 13:14 ` andrey mirtchovski
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