* Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released @ 1998-11-15 1:01 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-15 21:49 ` Graham Murray 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-15 1:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Bugfix. Get it from <URL:http://www.gnus.org/pgnus.tar.gz> or "/ftp@ftp.gnus.org:/pub/emacs/gnus/". The patch is available as <URL:http://www.gnus.org/patches/pgnus-0.45-0.46.diff.gz>. ChangeLog since last release: Sun Nov 15 02:01:31 1998 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@menja.ifi.uio.no> * gnus.el: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released. 1998-11-15 01:54:40 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> * message.el (message-encode-message-body): Insert headers at the right spot. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-15 1:01 Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-15 21:49 ` Graham Murray 1998-11-16 8:18 ` Graham Murray 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Graham Murray @ 1998-11-15 21:49 UTC (permalink / raw) A couple of observations. I don't know if 0.47 has cured these. 1) The Mime-Version header is repeated. 2) There seems to be a large number of blank lines between the header and the start of the body. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-15 21:49 ` Graham Murray @ 1998-11-16 8:18 ` Graham Murray 1998-11-17 23:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Graham Murray @ 1998-11-16 8:18 UTC (permalink / raw) Graham Murray <graham@barnowl.demon.co.uk> writes: > A couple of observations. I don't know if 0.47 has cured these. > > 1) The Mime-Version header is repeated. > 2) There seems to be a large number of blank lines between the header > and the start of the body. I posted too soon, 0.47 seems to have fixed these. - Sorry. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-16 8:18 ` Graham Murray @ 1998-11-17 23:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 3:17 ` Alexandre Oliva 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-17 23:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Graham Murray <graham@barnowl.demon.co.uk> writes: > > 2) There seems to be a large number of blank lines between the header > > and the start of the body. > > I posted too soon, 0.47 seems to have fixed these. - Sorry. There were still too many blank lines in 0.49, but I've now whittled them down a bit. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-17 23:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-18 3:17 ` Alexandre Oliva 1998-11-18 6:36 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 1998-11-18 3:17 UTC (permalink / raw) On Nov 17, 1998, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: > Graham Murray <graham@barnowl.demon.co.uk> writes: >> > 2) There seems to be a large number of blank lines between the header >> > and the start of the body. >> >> I posted too soon, 0.47 seems to have fixed these. - Sorry. > There were still too many blank lines in 0.49, but I've now whittled > them down a bit. It would also be nice if gnus wouldn't spend two lines just to tell me that the message contains a single plain-text part. I'd prefer to have the `[1. text]' line ommitted. And how 'bout decoding the ugly `=?ISO...?=' encodings that appear in headers of some messages, particularly ones posted with TM/SEMI? Another interesting issue I noticed: can anyone think of a reason why several MIME type options appear duplicated for me if I hit TAB when gnus asks me for the `MIME type for /some/file'? Some types appear up to 6 times! Not that it's wrong, it just seems strange... -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~oliva aoliva@{acm.org} oliva@{dcc.unicamp.br,gnu.org,egcs.cygnus.com,samba.org.au} Universidade Estadual de Campinas, SP, Brasil ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-18 3:17 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 1998-11-18 6:36 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 6:53 ` Alexandre Oliva ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-18 6:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Alexandre Oliva <oliva@dcc.unicamp.br> writes: > It would also be nice if gnus wouldn't spend two lines just to tell me > that the message contains a single plain-text part. I'd prefer to > have the `[1. text]' line ommitted. You only get buttons in multipart messages. Is it common to send multipart messages that only contain a single part? Why would people do that? (Except me, of course, over the past few days. :-) > And how 'bout decoding the ugly `=?ISO...?=' encodings that appear in > headers of some messages, particularly ones posted with TM/SEMI? I haven't seen any Q encodings of headers in eons. Could you give us an example? > Another interesting issue I noticed: can anyone think of a reason why > several MIME type options appear duplicated for me if I hit TAB when > gnus asks me for the `MIME type for /some/file'? Some types appear up > to 6 times! Not that it's wrong, it just seems strange... Gnus should probably whittle those down a bit; yes... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-18 6:36 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-18 6:53 ` Alexandre Oliva 1998-11-18 7:27 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 8:22 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-18 21:57 ` François Pinard 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 1998-11-18 6:53 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1090 bytes --] On Nov 18, 1998, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: > Alexandre Oliva <oliva@dcc.unicamp.br> writes: >> It would also be nice if gnus wouldn't spend two lines just to tell me >> that the message contains a single plain-text part. I'd prefer to >> have the `[1. text]' line ommitted. > You only get buttons in multipart messages. Is it common to send > multipart messages that only contain a single part? Why would people > do that? (Except me, of course, over the past few days. :-) We're on the same boat :-) I'm not sure this is common, but we could make it a special case if gnus will keep posting such messages. I don't think there's any reason not to post them like this... >> And how 'bout decoding the ugly `=?ISO...?=' encodings that appear in >> headers of some messages, particularly ones posted with TM/SEMI? > I haven't seen any Q encodings of headers in eons. Could you give us > an example? I'd like to have attached a message containing such encodings, but I couldn't find any way to do it. Here's a file containing such a message, anyway... [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 4762 bytes --] X-From-Line: tm-en-return-1912-oliva=dcc.unicamp.br@chamonix.jaist.ac.jp Mon Nov 16 05:21 EDT 1998 Received: from grande.dcc.unicamp.br (grande.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.7.8]) by amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA02527 for <oliva@amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br>; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 05:21:54 -0200 (EDT) Received: from chamonix.jaist.ac.jp (chamonix.jaist.ac.jp [150.65.194.23]) by grande.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA03783 for <oliva@dcc.unicamp.br>; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 05:21:30 -0200 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11701 invoked by uid 6); 16 Nov 1998 16:23:28 +0900 Received: (qmail 11695 invoked from network); 16 Nov 1998 16:23:27 +0900 Received: from mail.jaist.ac.jp (150.65.38.20) by chamonix.jaist.ac.jp with ESMTP; 16 Nov 1998 16:23:26 +0900 Received: from mousai.jaist.ac.jp (mousai [150.65.41.143]) by mail.jaist.ac.jp (3.7W-jaist_mail) with ESMTP id QAA29852; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:23:25 +0900 (JST) Mailing-List: contact tm-en-help@chamonix.jaist.ac.jp; run by ezmlm-idx X-Ml-Name: tm(en) / tm ML (English Version) Precedence: bulk Delivered-To: mailing list tm-en@chamonix.jaist.ac.jp X-Ml-Count: 1912 Sender: morioka@mousai.jaist.ac.jp To: tm-en@chamonix.jaist.ac.jp Subject: SEMI 1.11.0 (Kanazawa) Organization: Japan Advanced Institute of Science and Technology, Hokuriku From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCPGkyLBsoQiAbJEJDTkknGyhC?= (MORIOKA Tomohiko) <morioka@jaist.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.11.0 - "Kanazawa") Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: 16 Nov 1998 16:23:26 +0900 Message-ID: <s1clnlcm781.fsf@mousai.jaist.ac.jp> User-Agent: Chao-gnus/6.12.4 SEMI/1.11.0 (Kanazawa) FLIM/1.12.0 (Amagatsuji) MULE XEmacs/21.0 (Norwegian) (i586-pc-linux) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart_Mon_Nov_16_16:23:25_1998-2" X-Content-Length: 2911 Lines: 105 Xref: araguaia.dcc.unicamp.br tm:62 --Multipart_Mon_Nov_16_16:23:25_1998-2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII [Status] beta [Required Environment] APEL: 9.11 or later FLIM: 1.12.0 or later [Changes] 1998-11-16 MORIOKA Tomohiko <morioka@jaist.ac.jp> * SEMI: Version 1.11.0 (Kanazawa) released. * README.ja, README.en (Required environment): Modify for APEL 9.11 and FLIM 1.12.0. 1998-11-12 Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka@jpl.org> * mime-edit.el (mime-edit-split-ignored-field-regexp): Add "^". 1998-11-08 MORIOKA Tomohiko <morioka@jaist.ac.jp> * mime-bbdb.el (mime-bbdb/update-record): Use `mime-decode-field-body' instead of `eword-decode-structured-field-body'. 1998-10-31 MORIOKA Tomohiko <morioka@jaist.ac.jp> * mime-edit.el (mime-edit-decode-message-in-buffer): Delete fields match with `mime-edit-again-ignored-field-regexp' then call `mime-decode-header-in-buffer'. (mime-edit-again): Delete header filter. 1998-10-31 MORIOKA Tomohiko <morioka@jaist.ac.jp> * mime-edit.el (mime-edit-decode-multipart-in-buffer): Change interface. (mime-edit-decode-single-part-in-buffer): New function. (mime-edit-decode-message-in-buffer): Swap arguments; use function `mime-edit-decode-single-part-in-buffer'. (mime-edit-again): Modify for `mime-edit-decode-message-in-buffer'. 1998-10-31 MORIOKA Tomohiko <morioka@jaist.ac.jp> * mime-edit.el (mime-edit-decode-multipart-in-buffer): New function. (mime-edit-decode-message-in-buffer): Add new optional argument `default-content-type'; use function `mime-edit-decode-multipart-in-buffer'; add autoload cookie. (mime-edit-again): Add autoload cookie. * mime-edit.el (mime-edit-decode-message-in-buffer): Renamed from `mime-edit-decode-buffer'; change `not-decode-text' to optional argument. --Multipart_Mon_Nov_16_16:23:25_1998-2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Multipart_Mon_Nov_16_16:23:25_1998-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Multipart_Mon_Nov_16_16:23:25_1998-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It is available from ftp://ftp.jaist.ac.jp/pub/GNU/elisp/semi/ --Multipart_Mon_Nov_16_16:23:25_1998-1 Content-Type: message/external-body; access-type=anon-ftp; site="ftp.jaist.ac.jp"; directory="/pub/GNU/elisp/semi"; name="semi-1.11.0.tar.gz"; mode=image Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="semi-1.11.0.tar.gz"; type=tar; conversions=gzip --Multipart_Mon_Nov_16_16:23:25_1998-1-- --Multipart_Mon_Nov_16_16:23:25_1998-2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -- = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MORIOKA Tomohiko <morioka@jaist.ac.jp> Japan advanced Institute of Science and Technology, Hokuriku Asahi-dai, Tatsu-no-kuchi ch=F4, Nomi, Ishikawa, Japan ------------------------------------------ Frisch, Frei, Fr=F6hlich! --- --Multipart_Mon_Nov_16_16:23:25_1998-2-- [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 180 bytes --] -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~oliva aoliva@{acm.org} oliva@{dcc.unicamp.br,gnu.org,egcs.cygnus.com,samba.org.au} Universidade Estadual de Campinas, SP, Brasil ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-18 6:53 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 1998-11-18 7:27 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 7:36 ` Alexandre Oliva 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-18 7:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Alexandre Oliva <oliva@dcc.unicamp.br> writes: > I'm not sure this is common, but we could make it a special case if > gnus will keep posting such messages. I don't think there's any > reason not to post them like this... Multiparts are ugly. There's no reason to post multiparts unless one has to. > Here's a file containing such a message, anyway... It decoded perfetcly for me. What's your `gnus-article-decode-hook'? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-18 7:27 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-18 7:36 ` Alexandre Oliva 1998-11-18 8:12 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 1998-11-18 7:36 UTC (permalink / raw) On Nov 18, 1998, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: >> Here's a file containing such a message, anyway... > It decoded perfetcly for me. Good to know. > What's your `gnus-article-decode-hook'? Value: (article-decode-charset article-decode-encoded-words) Maybe it's just because I'm running the ``ancient'' pgnus 0.48, and you're running 0.51... ;-) -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~oliva aoliva@{acm.org} oliva@{dcc.unicamp.br,gnu.org,egcs.cygnus.com,samba.org.au} Universidade Estadual de Campinas, SP, Brasil ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-18 7:36 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 1998-11-18 8:12 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-18 8:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Alexandre Oliva <oliva@dcc.unicamp.br> writes: > > What's your `gnus-article-decode-hook'? > > Value: (article-decode-charset article-decode-encoded-words) That's ok. > Maybe it's just because I'm running the ``ancient'' pgnus 0.48, and > you're running 0.51... ;-) Get with the times! Groove on up! :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-18 6:36 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 6:53 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 1998-11-18 8:22 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-18 8:42 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 21:57 ` François Pinard 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-18 8:22 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > You only get buttons in multipart messages. No. See the following message: ,----- | X-From-Line: Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE Wed Nov 18 09:19:55 1998 | Received: from amaunet.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (amaunet [129.217.20.113]) | by marcy.informatik.uni-dortmund.de id JAA06980; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:19:54 +0100 | Received: from ramses.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (ramses [129.217.20.180]) | by amaunet.informatik.uni-dortmund.de id JAA01053; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:19:53 +0100 | Received: (grossjoh@localhost) | by ramses.informatik.uni-dortmund.de id JAA22322; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:19:52 +0100 | To: Kai Grossjohann <grossjohann@ls6.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> | Subject: mime-test | Mime-Version: 1.0 | Content-type: text/html | Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit | From: Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE | Date: 18 Nov 1998 09:19:50 +0100 | Message-ID: <vaf7lwt76qh.fsf@ramses.cs.uni-dortmund.de> | User-Agent: Gnus/5.070048 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.48) Emacs/20.3 | Mime-Version: 1.0 | X-Content-Length: 80 | Lines: 10 | Xref: ramses.cs.uni-dortmund.de inbox:42334 | | | | <html> | This is <em>html</em>. | | kai | -- | Life is hard and then you die. | </html> | `----- When displaying this message in 0.49, a [1. text/html] button is shown. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-18 8:22 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-18 8:42 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-18 8:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > > You only get buttons in multipart messages. > > No. See the following message: Ah; yes -- only singlepart text/plain messages are buttonless. Which makes sense to me, I think. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-18 6:36 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 6:53 ` Alexandre Oliva 1998-11-18 8:22 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-18 21:57 ` François Pinard 1998-11-19 5:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1998-11-18 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Is it common to send multipart messages that only contain a single part? Not really common, yet I remember having (softly :-) complained to a few of my correspondents who were always doing that. > Why would people do that? Presumably because they do not have full control over their MUAs? > > And how 'bout decoding the ugly `=?ISO...?=' encodings that appear in > > headers of some messages, particularly ones posted with TM/SEMI? > I haven't seen any Q encodings of headers in eons. Could you give us > an example? Do you mean RFC1522 (now RFC2070, if not mistaken)? Even if ugly, these address a real need. Of course, you'll more likely see B for messages showing Asian names, but for Latin languages sharing many letters with the English alphabet, Q is still likely to occur. -- François Pinard mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca Join the free Translation Project! http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-18 21:57 ` François Pinard @ 1998-11-19 5:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-19 11:31 ` Hrvoje Niksic ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-19 5:57 UTC (permalink / raw) François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: > > Is it common to send multipart messages that only contain a single part? > > Not really common, yet I remember having (softly :-) complained to a few > of my correspondents who were always doing that. Yup. Anyway, perhaps we should just drop the buttons for all the text/plain parts totally? It's not like anyone wants to toggle those parts... although I guess people might want to save them separately and stuff. Hm. > > I haven't seen any Q encodings of headers in eons. Could you give us > > an example? > > Do you mean RFC1522 (now RFC2070, if not mistaken)? > > Even if ugly, these address a real need. Of course, you'll more likely > see B for messages showing Asian names, but for Latin languages sharing > many letters with the English alphabet, Q is still likely to occur. Yes, but I meant that I haven't seen them, since Gnus decodes them automatically now. :-) (Both Q and B encodings.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-19 5:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-19 11:31 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-19 11:46 ` Lee Willis 1998-11-19 16:23 ` François Pinard 1998-11-20 12:12 ` Kai.Grossjohann 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1998-11-19 11:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Anyway, perhaps we should just drop the buttons for all the text/plain > parts totally? Please don't drop the buttons. Yes, I would like to toggle them -- if they are sent as multipart, I assume there must be a reason for that. The separate saving is also an issue. -- Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia --------------------------------+-------------------------------- Latest O'Reilly edition: Database Management with POSTSCRIPT ("The Flying Fish Book") ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-19 11:31 ` Hrvoje Niksic @ 1998-11-19 11:46 ` Lee Willis 1998-11-19 11:50 ` Hrvoje Niksic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Lee Willis @ 1998-11-19 11:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > Please don't drop the buttons. Yes, I would like to toggle them -- if > they are sent as multipart, I assume there must be a reason for that. > The separate saving is also an issue. Can we have it perhaps as an option as I don't want to toggle them and therefore I'd prefer not to see them. Maybe gnus-article-show-text-button ? Lee. -- I was doing object-oriented assembly at 1 year old ... For some reason my mom insists on calling it "Playing with blocks" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-19 11:46 ` Lee Willis @ 1998-11-19 11:50 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-20 1:51 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1998-11-19 11:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Lee Willis <lee@gbdirect.co.uk> writes: > Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > > > Please don't drop the buttons. Yes, I would like to toggle them -- if > > they are sent as multipart, I assume there must be a reason for that. > > The separate saving is also an issue. > > Can we have it perhaps as an option as I don't want to toggle them > and therefore I'd prefer not to see them. Maybe > gnus-article-show-text-button ? Or, even better, a more general way of telling Gnus which types you want to have buttons for, and which types you don't. Of course, there should also be a function to buttonize everything. -- Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia --------------------------------+-------------------------------- Q: What's an IBM man-year? A: 730 people trying to get a project done before noon. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-19 11:50 ` Hrvoje Niksic @ 1998-11-20 1:51 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-20 1:51 UTC (permalink / raw) Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > Or, even better, a more general way of telling Gnus which types you > want to have buttons for, and which types you don't. I've now added `gnus-unbuttonized-mime-types'. > Of course, there should also be a function to buttonize everything. Which brings us back to which keymap all MIME commands should be put under, which we didn't really resolve last time. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-19 5:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-19 11:31 ` Hrvoje Niksic @ 1998-11-19 16:23 ` François Pinard 1998-11-19 21:01 ` Edward J. Sabol 1998-11-20 12:19 ` Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-20 12:12 ` Kai.Grossjohann 2 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1998-11-19 16:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> écrit: > Anyway, perhaps we should just drop the buttons for all the text/plain > parts totally? Yes. They are noisy, and not useful. > It's not like anyone wants to toggle those parts... although I guess > people might want to save them separately and stuff. Hm. I really think we should try to see MIME and HTML as two different ways (the old and the new) to produce _unified_ multimedia presentations. In some case, extraction of parts is related to the presentation, like for file transmission types, but in other cases, like text or image types, they are not. It would not come to mind to have heavy mechanics and buttons in an HTML browser to extract substrings of the overall page. The same spirit should apply to MIME in Gnus. It is only normal that one should resort to special unusual devices to extract substrings, like calling for the HTML sources and using an editor, or the overall cut-an-paste mechanics of the window system. In Gnus, if one wants to really fiddle with MIME internals, one can use either `C-u g', possibly combined with `C-d', to access internals, or intimate parts of a MIME message. MIME usually have heavy user interface implementations. Gnus could try to do better, and have something lightier by default. I would hope from a good MUA that it hides MIME complexities from me, instead of revealing them, the same as good HTML browsers do. The constant goal might be that MIME is not much heavier than HTML, everywhere it is reasonable that it stays light. Handling textual parts separately, with buttons and such, is overkill in the default presentation. Moreover, I do not think it really fits the original intent of MIME. When it's more of an internal/binary/dissection matter, then it should be kept out of the way. `C-d' only exists as a way to resolve in advance some accessory, less important needs, *so* that a MIME-viewer could later be tackled with a more free design, not to be uncumbered with things not really meant to be there. I've not yet seen a MIME-viewer that reaches the unified presentation intent of Nathaniel Boreinstein, yet it's true I'm far from having seen them all :-). I would surely like that Gnus avoids the usual mere-bag-of-tricks approach to MIME, and rather become a real good MIME viewer. -- François Pinard mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca Join the free Translation Project! http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-19 16:23 ` François Pinard @ 1998-11-19 21:01 ` Edward J. Sabol 1998-11-19 22:29 ` François Pinard 1998-11-20 12:19 ` Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Edward J. Sabol @ 1998-11-19 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: LMI> Anyway, perhaps we should just drop the buttons for all the text/plain LMI> parts totally? Francois Pinard <pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA> wrote: FP> Yes. They are noisy, and not useful. I agree completely. (By the way, your argument against them was very well presented.) I think the only time there should be a button for a text/* part (not just text/plain, but anything text) is if it's in a multipart/alternative grouping. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-19 21:01 ` Edward J. Sabol @ 1998-11-19 22:29 ` François Pinard 1998-11-20 1:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1998-11-19 22:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Gnus Mailing List "Edward J. Sabol" <sabol@alderaan.gsfc.nasa.gov> writes: > I think the only time there should be a button for a text/* part (not > just text/plain, but anything text) is if it's in a multipart/alternative > grouping. Even then, I would think that alternatives were mainly invented to cope with situations where there are limitations in the presentation devices (no sound, no bitmaps) and such things. A bit like Lynx which is able to use an alternative label to an image, which label is part of the HTML image tag, and which has been invented for situations where images may not be displayed. Alternatives were not meant as menus for users, no more that one would expect a menu in an HTML bitmapped browser besides each image, to know if you want the image or the tag. Oh, one may argue that we have global options to tell the browser to do _as if_ it was unable to display images, or to delay their loading, but this is more a change in the description of the overall environment, than the intent of a per-image menu. In the HTML case, the decision is taken by the browser, and this is the clever way to do it. MIME should not be different. I would expect that an intelligent MUA would be able to plainly and silently make the proper choice when given alternatives, given some prior knowledge about my overall environment, and just not bother me with buttons and unneeded devices. Of course, in the development process, one needs to study how MIME works internally, and there is even some fun to click. But if we look beyond, the real goal is to present a MIME message almost as simply as it is done for non-MIME messages. If one can readily say, just looking at the multiplication of artifacts in the Article buffer, that here is a MIME message, or that this one is not, I think we will have missed the goal. -- François Pinard mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca Join the free Translation Project! http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-19 22:29 ` François Pinard @ 1998-11-20 1:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-20 10:25 ` No more buttons by default? Hrvoje Niksic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-20 1:57 UTC (permalink / raw) François Pinard <pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes: > Of course, in the development process, one needs to study how MIME works > internally, and there is even some fun to click. But if we look beyond, > the real goal is to present a MIME message almost as simply as it is > done for non-MIME messages. If one can readily say, just looking at the > multiplication of artifacts in the Article buffer, that here is a MIME > message, or that this one is not, I think we will have missed the goal. I agree with you totally. The only bits that really makes sense in handling separately (by default) are attachments, really. Everything else is meant to be viewed as one complete, whole document -- just like HTML. So I'm defaulting gnus-unbuttonized-mime-types to (".*/.*"), which means that only the things that aren't displayed by default (either because they are attachments or because Gnus doesn't know how to display them) will be buttonized in 0.52. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 1:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-20 10:25 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-20 13:15 ` Steinar Bang ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1998-11-20 10:25 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Everything else is meant to be viewed as one complete, whole > document -- just like HTML. So I'm defaulting > gnus-unbuttonized-mime-types to (".*/.*"), which means that only the > things that aren't displayed by default (either because they are > attachments or because Gnus doesn't know how to display them) will > be buttonized in 0.52. Are you saying that, from now on, there will be no way of saving an image found in the article buffer, without fiddling with `gnus-unbuttonized-mime-types'? Or of hiding the image from the buffer? Or of saving the textual types that happen not to be attachments? All this is bad news. I don't really buy into this equivalence of MIME and HTML that you people so like to stress. MIME simply provides a clean way of merging all these formats and a clean way of specifying how you want them shown; it is by no means the equivalent of a markup language. Saying "MIME is like HTML" is IMO missing the point of MIME. I agree that MIME should be seemlessly integrated into the Article buffer. But I don't see anything wrong with the current buttonized approach, especially if it were accompanied with a decent Summary-based viewing mode. -- Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia --------------------------------+-------------------------------- Mix 2 table spoons sugar with 1 spoon salt. Put it in a bottle and stick a fuse into it. Say "Shit!" when it doesn't detonate. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 10:25 ` No more buttons by default? Hrvoje Niksic @ 1998-11-20 13:15 ` Steinar Bang 1998-11-20 15:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-20 15:13 ` François Pinard 1998-11-20 15:28 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Steinar Bang @ 1998-11-20 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr>: > All this is bad news. I don't really buy into this equivalence of > MIME and HTML that you people so like to stress. MIME simply > provides a clean way of merging all these formats and a clean way of > specifying how you want them shown; it is by no means the equivalent > of a markup language. Saying "MIME is like HTML" is IMO missing the > point of MIME. I'm not sure what to think. I think the proponents of MIME/HTML equivalence are correct in that this is closer to the original MIME idea. But I worry that this behaviour will make us incompatible with other MUAs that don't use the content-disposition header to tell us whether this is an inline mime type or an attachment. I think MIME-as markup may be workable, or maybe even the best behaviour if we have Content-Disposition: inline in the message parts. But I think Gnus should default to attachment behaviour, in the absense of content-disposition headers, because that's probably closer to what the composing MUA expects. IMHO, of course! - Steinar ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 13:15 ` Steinar Bang @ 1998-11-20 15:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-20 17:30 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1998-11-20 17:45 ` Steinar Bang 0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-20 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> writes: > But I worry that this behaviour will make us incompatible with other > MUAs that don't use the content-disposition header to tell us whether > this is an inline mime type or an attachment. > > I think MIME-as markup may be workable, or maybe even the best > behaviour if we have > Content-Disposition: inline > in the message parts. > > But I think Gnus should default to attachment behaviour, in the > absense of content-disposition headers, because that's probably closer > to what the composing MUA expects. "Attachment" behavior means not displaying the part at all, according to RFC2183. The user should be notified that the part exists, but it should not be automatically displayed. Not that I think we should look too much at what other MIME readers do, but this might be nice to know how others do it. So here's today's assignment: 1) Find a MIME mail/newsreader, and 2) See how it displays the next two messages I'm going to send. These are called "MIME Test One" and "MIME Test Two". 3) Do screenshots. 4) Post URLs to these screenshots. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 15:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-20 17:30 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1998-11-20 17:45 ` Steinar Bang 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1998-11-20 17:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > "Attachment" behavior means not displaying the part at all, according > to RFC2183. The user should be notified that the part exists, but it > should not be automatically displayed. > 1) Find a MIME mail/newsreader, and > 2) See how it displays the next two messages I'm going to send. These > are called "MIME Test One" and "MIME Test Two". > 3) Do screenshots. > 4) Post URLs to these screenshots. The word "ewwwww" comes to mind... For a minimalist approach, I just fed each message to metamail. Metamail works on One fine, showing the parts in sequence. 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* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 15:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-20 17:30 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 1998-11-20 17:45 ` Steinar Bang 1998-11-20 17:48 ` Steinar Bang 1998-11-21 4:29 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Steinar Bang @ 1998-11-20 17:45 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>: > Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> writes: >> But I think Gnus should default to attachment behaviour, in the >> absense of content-disposition headers, because that's probably >> closer to what the composing MUA expects. > "Attachment" behavior means not displaying the part at all, > according to RFC2183. The user should be notified that the part > exists, but it should not be automatically displayed. Hm... one thing I've done a lot, is to send stuff like eg. compilation errors as text/plain parts with c-d disposition of attachment. The idea has been that the receipient would see the text to read inline in the message, but would be provided with buttons to make it easy for him to save it to a file. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 17:45 ` Steinar Bang @ 1998-11-20 17:48 ` Steinar Bang 1998-11-21 4:29 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Steinar Bang @ 1998-11-20 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no>: >>>>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>: >> Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> writes: >>> But I think Gnus should default to attachment behaviour, in the >>> absense of content-disposition headers, because that's probably >>> closer to what the composing MUA expects. >> "Attachment" behavior means not displaying the part at all, >> according to RFC2183. The user should be notified that the part >> exists, but it should not be automatically displayed. > Hm... one thing I've done a lot, is to send stuff like eg. compilation > errors as text/plain parts with c-d disposition of attachment. Add "perl scripts, C- and C++-source code files" to "compilation errors". > The idea has been that the receipient would see the text to read > inline in the message, but would be provided with buttons to make it > easy for him to save it to a file. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 17:45 ` Steinar Bang 1998-11-20 17:48 ` Steinar Bang @ 1998-11-21 4:29 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-21 8:12 ` Dale Hagglund 1998-11-21 18:14 ` Matt Armstrong 1 sibling, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-21 4:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> writes: > Hm... one thing I've done a lot, is to send stuff like eg. compilation > errors as text/plain parts with c-d disposition of attachment. > > The idea has been that the receipient would see the text to read > inline in the message, but would be provided with buttons to make it > easy for him to save it to a file. Right. But that's not what the RFCs say that the reader should do. Anyway -- even though I don't like the buttons much, there may be an argument that it should be easy to handle MIME parts independently. One way would be to have commands like `o' and `|' (in the article buffer) work on the part under point -- if you place point on an image, it's fairly clear that you want to save that image; if you place point somewhere in the compilation error, you may want to save just the part that contains the compilation errors. However, the user must (I think) be given some visual clue as to where each parts starts (and stops). The buttons are too heavy, but can anyone come up with some other clue that would be less intrusive? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-21 4:29 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-21 8:12 ` Dale Hagglund 1998-11-21 8:49 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-21 18:14 ` Matt Armstrong 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Dale Hagglund @ 1998-11-21 8:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> writes: > > The idea has been that the receipient would see the text to read > > inline in the message, but would be provided with buttons to make it > > easy for him to save it to a file. > Right. But that's not what the RFCs say that the reader should do. I'm curious where you find this in the RFCs? I've been browsing RFCs 2045 and 2046, and I haven't noticed anything that obviously implies this, at least to me. > Anyway -- even though I don't like the buttons much, there may be an > argument that it should be easy to handle MIME parts independently. In general, I don't buy the claim of equivalence between HTML and MIME. In HTML, the internal structure is hidden by the displayer because the document is in some sense a unified whole. To me, MIME is more of a transport mechanism for carrying multiple loosely-coupled pieces. The structure is important, and should be displayed to the user. > However, the user must (I think) be given some visual clue as to where > each parts starts (and stops). The buttons are too heavy, but can > anyone come up with some other clue that would be less intrusive? I agree that the current buttons takes up a lot of space, and aren't the prettiest things imaginable. But, I'd rather have buttons as they are than no demarcation of the various body parts at all. The only alternative I can think of is some sort of alternating background color between for alternating background parts, ie, white, light grey, white, light grey. However, with this, I loose the ability to easily identify the part number for commands like `2 b' from the summary buffer. Dale. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-21 8:12 ` Dale Hagglund @ 1998-11-21 8:49 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-21 9:19 ` Dale Hagglund 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-21 8:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Dale Hagglund <rdh@best.com> writes: > I'm curious where you find this in the RFCs? I've been browsing RFCs > 2045 and 2046, and I haven't noticed anything that obviously implies > this, at least to me. RFC2183. > The only alternative I can think of is some sort of alternating > background color between for alternating background parts, ie, white, > light grey, white, light grey. However, with this, I loose the > ability to easily identify the part number for commands like `2 b' > from the summary buffer. But why would you want to `2 b' a part that's already displayed? It's fun to `b' a multipart/alternative and see it cycle through all the alternatives, but surely that novelty wears off after a while... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-21 8:49 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-21 9:19 ` Dale Hagglund 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Dale Hagglund @ 1998-11-21 9:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > But why would you want to `2 b' a part that's already displayed? Whoops! I was confusing displaying a part with saving a part to a file, which is something I'd also like to do without leaving the summary buffer. > It's fun to `b' a multipart/alternative and see it cycle through all > the alternatives, but surely that novelty wears off after a while... Wasn't aware of this one. Sound's cool . . . Dale. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-21 4:29 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-21 8:12 ` Dale Hagglund @ 1998-11-21 18:14 ` Matt Armstrong 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 1998-11-21 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > > Anyway -- even though I don't like the buttons much, there may be an > argument that it should be easy to handle MIME parts independently. > One way would be to have commands like `o' and `|' (in the article > buffer) work on the part under point -- if you place point on an > image, it's fairly clear that you want to save that image; if you > place point somewhere in the compilation error, you may want to save > just the part that contains the compilation errors. I like the idea of a separate "deal with attachment" buffer that pops up a list of the parts and lets you choose which one to save/delete, etc. I'm thinking of the PC-Pine interface (screen shots at http://www.best.com/~mattdav/mime/). Something bothers me about having to click around in the article buffer. > However, the user must (I think) be given some visual clue as to where > each parts starts (and stops). The buttons are too heavy, but can > anyone come up with some other clue that would be less intrusive? Something like an HTML <hr> would look nice. Maybe Xemacs can do that kind of thing. For FSF Emacs, maybe just a single line in a different background color. On a terminal, just a "--------------------------" might work. This is the way Netscape splits up the parts visually, and I've always liked it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 10:25 ` No more buttons by default? Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-20 13:15 ` Steinar Bang @ 1998-11-20 15:13 ` François Pinard 1998-11-22 12:06 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-20 15:28 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1998-11-20 15:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > > Everything else is meant to be viewed as one complete, whole > > document -- just like HTML. > Are you saying that, from now on, there will be no way of saving an > image found in the article buffer, without fiddling with > `gnus-unbuttonized-mime-types'? There are always ways! But saving an image found in article buffer is no different from saving an image found in an HTML page, and this is not something which has to be a bold part of the MIME article viewer. What you ask for is dissecting, with a scalpel, the intimate structure of a MIME message, for removing or copying one constituent of the overall presentation of the message. Use `C-d' for that, combined with saving commands. I even guess Lars chose `C-d' because of the first letter of the word "dissection". The problem is that we are so uncomfortable with MIME that we desperately want control over everything. In my opinion, the uncomfort might come from the fact we do not have many good MIME readers. With a real good reader, I do not think that the urge would be so great. Intimate operations on the MIME structural entities should be something driven from aside, and not encumber the reader. > Or of hiding the image from the buffer? Or of saving the textual types > that happen not to be attachments? When using an HTML browser, do you ask for hiding images from the display? There is no such strong reason to do so. Do you ask for saving substrings on the page? You just cust and paste them elsewhere, but you do not ask the browser to have special provisions. Just think the same. > Saying "MIME is like HTML" is IMO missing the point of MIME. Maybe we are not missing it that much, after all. Yet, there are indeed a few MIME aspects which are widely different, for instance, like part reassembly of a file split in many messages. MIME attempts to be many things at once, and this throw some confusion. But surely, it is a rather frequent use of MIME to produce multimedia messages meant for unified presentation. One cannot expect that a single paradigm will cover everything at once that MIME tries to be. Maybe that some of the weakness of many MIME readers comes from trying to build on too few paradigms. Better use many paradigms as needed, and implement each of them very well. It looks likely to me that an intelligent reader could determine, from the structure of a MIME message, what is its intent, and choose a suitable paradigm for that intent. > But I don't see anything wrong with the current buttonized approach, > especially if it were accompanied with a decent Summary-based viewing mode. Hiding images or not, or saving images or text fragments on disk, is not fundamentally what one would expect from a unified presentation. If I was hard debugging an HTML browser, year after year, maybe I would add a great deal of buttons to trigger and untrigger things, to help me in my job. I always had the sad impression that most MIME readers are kind of never ending debugging versions. Even if fun, buttons may be close to noise. If the "decent Summary-based viewing mode" was giving access to the intimate structure of the MIME message, it would still be a debugging tool. MIME was surely not meant to be dissected all the time. There is something inherently not healthy in the concept of constant surgery. :-) -- François Pinard mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca Join the free Translation Project! http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 15:13 ` François Pinard @ 1998-11-22 12:06 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-24 9:29 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1998-11-22 12:06 UTC (permalink / raw) François Pinard <pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes: > There are always ways! But saving an image found in article buffer > is no different from saving an image found in an HTML page, and this > is not something which has to be a bold part of the MIME article > viewer. Why not? In the browsers I use, it is possible to save the image without ever seeing the HTML source. > > Or of hiding the image from the buffer? Or of saving the textual types > > that happen not to be attachments? > > When using an HTML browser, do you ask for hiding images from the > display? Emacs is not an HTML browser. The browsers I use handle inline images much better than XEmacs does, so yes, I do want to hide images. > There is no such strong reason to do so. Do you ask for saving substrings > on the page? Here you assume the equivalence of MIME and HTML, which I disagree with. "Saving substrings on the page" is not a meaningful request, but "saving a MIME part is". Sprinkle IMHO's where appropriate. > If the "decent Summary-based viewing mode" was giving access to the > intimate structure of the MIME message, it would still be a > debugging tool. I meant something like `C-d', but that worked better. We've already discussed that. -- Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia --------------------------------+-------------------------------- Your lucky number today is 29842924728. Look for it everywhere. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-22 12:06 ` Hrvoje Niksic @ 1998-11-24 9:29 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-24 9:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > Why not? In the browsers I use, it is possible to save the image > without ever seeing the HTML source. I think that should be possible in Gnus as well -- by, for instance, placing point over the image and pressing `o', or by using the pop-up menu over the image. > Emacs is not an HTML browser. Well, if you have w3 installed, it is. > The browsers I use handle inline images much better than XEmacs > does, so yes, I do want to hide images. Hidden images (as all other hidden parts) are still buttonized. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 10:25 ` No more buttons by default? Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-20 13:15 ` Steinar Bang 1998-11-20 15:13 ` François Pinard @ 1998-11-20 15:28 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-20 17:56 ` Raja R Harinath 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-20 15:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > Are you saying that, from now on, there will be no way of saving an > image found in the article buffer, without fiddling with > `gnus-unbuttonized-mime-types'? Or of hiding the image from the > buffer? Or of saving the textual types that happen not to be > attachments? There will be a command to display the article buffer fully buttonized (when we come up with a MIME keymap prefix -- I'm tempted to go with `K'), but I've been running unbuttonized for half a day now, and I think things look nicer without buttons, so I think Gnus should default to not buttonize. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 15:28 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-20 17:56 ` Raja R Harinath 1998-11-20 18:07 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-21 4:31 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Raja R Harinath @ 1998-11-20 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > > Are you saying that, from now on, there will be no way of saving an > > image found in the article buffer, without fiddling with > > `gnus-unbuttonized-mime-types'? Or of hiding the image from the > > buffer? Or of saving the textual types that happen not to be > > attachments? > > There will be a command to display the article buffer fully buttonized > (when we come up with a MIME keymap prefix -- I'm tempted to go with > `K'), but I've been running unbuttonized for half a day now, and I > think things look nicer without buttons, so I think Gnus should > default to not buttonize. What about overloading `t' (`toggle-headers' I think)? It gives more details about the message without being as bad as `C-u g'. And, somehow, it was the first thing I hit to see the buttons (though I realized immediately that it wouldn't work). I don't think people who want to look at some `Recieved:' headers would mind seeing the buttons (or vice versa). IMHO, lets not have too many presentation modes. These should serve: normal article display t detailed article display `t' to "undo" C-u g raw article display 'g' to "undo" C-d article dissection 'q' to "undo" Stuff like just showing buttons or just showing headers may be banished to a prefixed keymap. - Hari -- Raja R Harinath ------------------------------ harinath@cs.umn.edu "When all else fails, read the instructions." -- Cahn's Axiom "Our policy is, when in doubt, do the right thing." -- Roy L Ash ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 17:56 ` Raja R Harinath @ 1998-11-20 18:07 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-21 4:31 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-20 18:07 UTC (permalink / raw) Raja R Harinath <harinath@cs.umn.edu> writes: > What about overloading `t' (`toggle-headers' I think)? It gives more > details about the message without being as bad as `C-u g'. And, > somehow, it was the first thing I hit to see the buttons (though I > realized immediately that it wouldn't work). M-t is still free in the summary buffer. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: No more buttons by default? 1998-11-20 17:56 ` Raja R Harinath 1998-11-20 18:07 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-21 4:31 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1998-11-21 4:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Raja R Harinath <harinath@cs.umn.edu> writes: > I don't think people who want to look at some `Recieved:' headers would > mind seeing the buttons (or vice versa). IMHO, lets not have too many > presentation modes. I've added `K b' to show a fully buttonized view in 0.52. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-19 16:23 ` François Pinard 1998-11-19 21:01 ` Edward J. Sabol @ 1998-11-20 12:19 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-20 12:35 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-20 12:19 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 238 bytes --] François Pinard <pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes: > Handling textual parts separately, with buttons and such, is > overkill in the default presentation. Hm. I always thought of MIME parts as a way to write the following: ,----- | [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 64 bytes --] | I have written a README file which explains the foo thing. | [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 2 bytes --] | [-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 32 bytes --] | (text of README goes here) | [-- Attachment #5: Type: text/plain, Size: 2 bytes --] | [-- Attachment #6: Type: text/plain, Size: 30 bytes --] | What do you think of it? | [-- Attachment #7: Type: text/plain, Size: 271 bytes --] `----- As you can see, this message also has this structure, but I used `|' and `-' to delineate the middle part, in the assumption that readers don't have MIME. Is this a wrong way to use MIME? What should I have done instead? kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-20 12:19 ` Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-20 12:35 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-20 15:26 ` François Pinard 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-20 12:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > François Pinard <pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes: > > > Handling textual parts separately, with buttons and such, is > > overkill in the default presentation. > > Hm. I always thought of MIME parts as a way to write the following: Eek. Destroyed my message. Should have writte #!part not #part... Hm. I'm trying again. ,----- | <part type=text/plain> | See the README about the foo thing. | </part> | | <part type=text/plain> | (README goes here) | </part> | | <part type=text/plain> | Did I forget anything? | </part> `----- kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-20 12:35 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-20 15:26 ` François Pinard 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1998-11-20 15:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE écrit: > ,----- > | <part type=text/plain> > | See the README about the foo thing. > | </part> > | > | <part type=text/plain> > | (README goes here) > | </part> > | > | <part type=text/plain> > | Did I forget anything? > | </part> > `----- Suppose I write: To check if you C compiler is working, put: main () { printf ("Hello, world!\n"); } in a file `hello.c' and do: make hello && ./hello Of course, I expect you to either copy, or cut and paste, the two code lines quoted above. I could also, using older methods, have put them there shared or uuencoded, so you may extract them exactly, say, or at least, force you to realize that I was sending files. I would be tempted to say that if the sender wants to really attach file README, then s/he should do it that way. If s/he merely quotes README as text, then it should be nothing more than that. -- François Pinard mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca Join the free Translation Project! http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-19 5:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-19 11:31 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-19 16:23 ` François Pinard @ 1998-11-20 12:12 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-20 15:17 ` François Pinard 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-20 12:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Anyway, perhaps we should just drop the buttons for all the > text/plain parts totally? I don't think that's a good idea. It should be possible to see the boundary between parts. At least as a user option. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released 1998-11-20 12:12 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1998-11-20 15:17 ` François Pinard 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1998-11-20 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > It should be possible to see the boundary between parts. At least as > a user option. Like the "View Source" menu selection in Netscape, say, to see HTML tags. You at least have `C-u g' available at any time if you want to view full MIME source. On average, seeing boundaries should not be anymore necessary than looking at HTML tags. It is a kind of debugging information that you should not encumber normal displays. -- François Pinard mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca Join the free Translation Project! http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1998-11-24 9:29 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 45+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1998-11-15 1:01 Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-15 21:49 ` Graham Murray 1998-11-16 8:18 ` Graham Murray 1998-11-17 23:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 3:17 ` Alexandre Oliva 1998-11-18 6:36 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 6:53 ` Alexandre Oliva 1998-11-18 7:27 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 7:36 ` Alexandre Oliva 1998-11-18 8:12 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 8:22 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-18 8:42 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-18 21:57 ` François Pinard 1998-11-19 5:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-19 11:31 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-19 11:46 ` Lee Willis 1998-11-19 11:50 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-20 1:51 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-19 16:23 ` François Pinard 1998-11-19 21:01 ` Edward J. Sabol 1998-11-19 22:29 ` François Pinard 1998-11-20 1:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-20 10:25 ` No more buttons by default? Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-20 13:15 ` Steinar Bang 1998-11-20 15:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-20 17:30 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1998-11-20 17:45 ` Steinar Bang 1998-11-20 17:48 ` Steinar Bang 1998-11-21 4:29 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-21 8:12 ` Dale Hagglund 1998-11-21 8:49 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-21 9:19 ` Dale Hagglund 1998-11-21 18:14 ` Matt Armstrong 1998-11-20 15:13 ` François Pinard 1998-11-22 12:06 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1998-11-24 9:29 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-20 15:28 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-20 17:56 ` Raja R Harinath 1998-11-20 18:07 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-21 4:31 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1998-11-20 12:19 ` Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46 is released Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-20 12:35 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-20 15:26 ` François Pinard 1998-11-20 12:12 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1998-11-20 15:17 ` François Pinard
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