Critical Editions?

Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

I just started switching after long years of typesetting with  
La-/Omega-/pdfTeX to Context and was exploring the capabilities of the  
program for typesetting critical editions. So I was
wondering whether there is any updated information on how to produce  
critical editions?


Details:
I was able to find the article "Ediciones críticas con ConTeXt" (is  
this in use?) as well as a
plan of and a remark concerning critTeXt: "As I learned from a thread  
on NTG-context from early 2010 we shouldn't expect a dedicated  
package, but that ConTeXt will eventually incorporate the needed  
functionalities."  What is the status of that?


I also found out that for simple editions context already works. For  
critical editions in my
field we need both footnote references based on linenumbers (for  
prose), but also references to
verse number, which can be entered manually. The main problem for me  
was to find the command \linenote :)

%  Setup of \linenote
\setupnotation[linenote]  
[alternative=serried,width=broad,distance=.5em,display=no]
\setupnote[linenote][way=bypage,paragraph=yes,rule=off]

%  \variant as a footnote without reference number
\definenote [variant] [footnote]
\setupnotation[variant][number=no]
\setupnote[variant][way=bypage,paragraph=yes,rule=off]

% Two "environments" for Sanskrit verses, one with, one without
linenumbers.

%         SANSKRIT EDITION linenumbers
\definelines[slokaed][][indenting={yes, small, even},
    
before=\startnarrower\startlinenumbering,after=\stoplinenumbering\stopnarrower]

%         SANSKRIT EDITION plain (referring to verses)
\definelines[slokaedplain][][indenting={yes, small, even},
   before=\startnarrower,after=\stopnarrower]

With this the code of the edition can be pleasently minimalistic:

\startslokaed
mano buddhir ahaṃ prāṇās tanmātrendriyajīvanam
   yaṃ dṛṣṭvā\linenote{dṛṣṭvā ] dṛṣṭva G\lohi{pc}{1}} vinivartante tam  
\linenote{tam ] tat} upāsyam upāsmahe}
\stopslokaed


\startslokaedplain
mano buddhir ahaṃ prāṇās tanmātrendriyajīvanam
yaṃ dṛṣṭvā\variant{2c dṛṣṭvā ] dṛṣṭva} vinivartante tam \variant{2d  
tam ] tat} upāsyam upāsmahe (2)
\stopslokaedplain

So far, so good. Any hints to a more sophisticated solution are highly  
welcome. (I am a simple TeX
user)
Thanks
Jürgen



---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

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Re: Critical Editions?

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

Thanks for bringing this topic up again. I'd also be highly interested in this!

Denis

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: ntg-context <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl> Im Auftrag von hanneder--
> - via ntg-context
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Dezember 2021 10:51
> An: ntg-context@ntg.nl
> Cc: hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de
> Betreff: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
> 
> 
> I just started switching after long years of typesetting with La-/Omega-
> /pdfTeX to Context and was exploring the capabilities of the program for
> typesetting critical editions. So I was wondering whether there is any
> updated information on how to produce critical editions?
> 
> 
> Details:
> I was able to find the article "Ediciones críticas con ConTeXt" (is this in use?)
> as well as a plan of and a remark concerning critTeXt: "As I learned from a
> thread on NTG-context from early 2010 we shouldn't expect a dedicated
> package, but that ConTeXt will eventually incorporate the needed
> functionalities."  What is the status of that?
> 
> 
> I also found out that for simple editions context already works. For critical
> editions in my field we need both footnote references based on
> linenumbers (for prose), but also references to verse number, which can be
> entered manually. The main problem for me was to find the command
> \linenote :)
> 
> %  Setup of \linenote
> \setupnotation[linenote]
> [alternative=serried,width=broad,distance=.5em,display=no]
> \setupnote[linenote][way=bypage,paragraph=yes,rule=off]
> 
> %  \variant as a footnote without reference number \definenote [variant]
> [footnote] \setupnotation[variant][number=no]
> \setupnote[variant][way=bypage,paragraph=yes,rule=off]
> 
> % Two "environments" for Sanskrit verses, one with, one without
> linenumbers.
> 
> %         SANSKRIT EDITION linenumbers
> \definelines[slokaed][][indenting={yes, small, even},
> 
> before=\startnarrower\startlinenumbering,after=\stoplinenumbering\stopn
> arrower]
> 
> %         SANSKRIT EDITION plain (referring to verses)
> \definelines[slokaedplain][][indenting={yes, small, even},
>    before=\startnarrower,after=\stopnarrower]
> 
> With this the code of the edition can be pleasently minimalistic:
> 
> \startslokaed
> mano buddhir ahaṃ prāṇās tanmātrendriyajīvanam
>    yaṃ dṛṣṭvā\linenote{dṛṣṭvā ] dṛṣṭva G\lohi{pc}{1}} vinivartante tam
> \linenote{tam ] tat} upāsyam upāsmahe} \stopslokaed
> 
> 
> \startslokaedplain
> mano buddhir ahaṃ prāṇās tanmātrendriyajīvanam yaṃ dṛṣṭvā\variant{2c
> dṛṣṭvā ] dṛṣṭva} vinivartante tam \variant{2d tam ] tat} upāsyam upāsmahe
> (2) \stopslokaedplain
> 
> So far, so good. Any hints to a more sophisticated solution are highly
> welcome. (I am a simple TeX
> user)
> Thanks
> Jürgen
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstr.12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de
> 
> __________________________________________________________
> _________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-
> context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive  :
> https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> __________________________________________________________
> _________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 21.12.21 um 11:06 schrieb Denis Maier via ntg-context:
> Thanks for bringing this topic up again. I'd also be highly interested in this!

Me too as a publisher in the humanities and evangelist for ConTeXt ;)

I raised the subject at previous context meetings, but the requirements 
for criticial editions differ so much that it’s hard to tell what is 
really needed.

So it’s good that Jürgen came up with his requirements and solution 
attempts.

I remember several interesting talks about big edition projects at DANTE 
conferences and online, also of course Massi’s MEO project, and since I 
also typeset a German literature magazin called “Kritische Ausgabe” I 
always wanted to publish a book on the subject of big editions from the 
editorial and technical view...

Hraban
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 12/21/2021 10:50 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
> 
> I just started switching after long years of typesetting with 
> La-/Omega-/pdfTeX to Context and was exploring the capabilities of the 
> program for typesetting critical editions. So I was
> wondering whether there is any updated information on how to produce 
> critical editions?

Maybe Idris has input because he made a partial inventory. There are all 
kind of mechanisms that support it but one needs to know where to look.

> 
> Details:
> I was able to find the article "Ediciones críticas con ConTeXt" (is this 
> in use?) as well as a
> plan of and a remark concerning critTeXt: "As I learned from a thread on 
> NTG-context from early 2010 we shouldn't expect a dedicated package, but 
> that ConTeXt will eventually incorporate the needed functionalities."  
> What is the status of that?

a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that is 
present

so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i suppose 
that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context]

> On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
> 
> a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that is present
> 
> so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i suppose that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far

I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an effort to educate myself I found this page <https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/examples.html> and thought about how those examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't take long to realise that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right with his sample code.

If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those examples and put it onto the Wiki somewhere?

The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied?

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

Dear Bruce and Hans,

thanks for you responses and I apologize for the lengthy post, which  
is just to give you an
impression of the current practice in my field (Sanskrit Studies, Indology).

For the last two decades edmac and its further developments (now  
reledmac) have become the standard
for critical editions. In my experience the basic requirements for  
typesetting critical editions
were and are:

- footnotes have to be formatted in paragraphs
- multiple footnotes layers stacked below the critical text must be possible
- automatic reference to linenumbers
- or: manual references to verse numbers
- language specific requirements (more complicated, see below)

In the last years new requirements have been added:

- some funding institutions in the academic world practically enforce  
online editions
- data have to be made available in TEI xml format

This is where a new (LuaTeX) package called ekdosis, currently being  
developed by Robert Alessi,
comes in. It produces a printed version and in the same TeX run an xml  
file. In an ongoing
editorial project we are using this method and it works very well.  
While the system is ingenious
and a great relief (for we do not have to work with xml directly), I  
am also critical about these
new demands, because they force us to use a fairly complex system for  
sometimes quite simple tasks.
I am a Sanskritist, we do not have huge budgets or a large staff, so  
efficiency is an issue. We
also do not have the resources for the long-term care for data such as  
online editions, but this is
another problem.

In a previous project, a large edition (30000 verses, 15 years), I  
tried to use the easiest
method. It turned out that edmac was not even necessary and not using  
it made the main file from
which we are working very readable and greatly simplified daily work.  
Just to give you an
impression from our input file: The first two lines in the next  
paragraph are the Sanskrit text in
transcription, \var produces a variant with reference to the verse  
number and verse quarter
(a-d). So no line numbering was even necessary. The \lem produces the  
sign that divides the
critical text and its witnesses from the variants, usually "]", the  
rest are sigla, like S1, S3
etc.

mumukṣuvyavahāroktimayāt prakaraṇād anu   \danda
athotpattiprakaraṇaṃ mayedaṃ parikathyate  \sloka{1.5}
    \var{5b}{anu \Sseven \Sft \lem \emph{param} \Sone \Sthree \Snine  
\Ntwelve \Ntw}

I used pdflatex and memoir, which has paragraphed footnotes. Here is  
the relevant section from the
preamble:

\renewcommand*{\@makefnmark}{}
\newfootnoteseries{P}
\paragraphfootstyle{P}
\renewcommand{\thefootnoteP}{}
\footmarkstyleP{}
\renewcommand{\@makefnmarkP}{\hskip-2.2pt}
\renewcommand{\footnoterule}{}
\setlength{\stockheight}{6in}
\renewcommand{\linenumberfont}{\normalfont\tiny}
\setlength{\linenumbersep}{0pt}\setlength{\linenumberwidth}{0pt}\modulolinenumbers[2]
\setlength{\footmarkwidth}{0em}
\setlength{\footmarksep}{-\footmarkwidth}
\addtolength{\skip\footins}{2mm plus 1mm}
\leftskip=.2cm            % indent of the verses
\def\var#1#2{\footnoteP{#1 #2}}  % footnotes


This is what I compiled from different examples (I am not a  
programmer), but it worked -- the
edition has produced quite a few volumes and is almost finished!

Working with this file was easy, because one could easily read the  
text.  The usual edmac code
would have required us to identify an lemma with \edtext and then  
write the variant directly into
the text. This may not matter in the case of few variants, but with  
many variants the text is
quickly rendered unreadable -- even with all tricks to make footnotes  
invisible (I use folding in
emacs). The following would be a single example verse (32 syllables,  
same size as the one quoted
above), encoded in ekdosis and with lots of manuscripts:

\begin{tlg}[hp16][]
\tl{
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{manthāna}
      \rdg[type=stemmaerror,wit={B2}]{\unm śrīmanthāna} % stemma error
      \rdg[wit={C4,L1,N5}]{manthāra}
      \rdg[wit={N13,Tü,V1,V22,Vu}]{manthāno\skp{-}}
      \rdg[wit={J2}]{mandāra}}%
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{bhairavo}
      \rdg[wit={N20}]{mairavo}
      \rdg[wit={N23}]{bhairavā}
      \rdg[wit={V26}]{bhaivarau}}
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{yogī}
      \rdg[wit={J2}]{jogī}
      \rdg[wit={C1}]{siddha}
      \rdg[wit={V5}]{siddhe}
      \rdg[wit={J15,V8}]{yogi}}
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{siddha}
       
\rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={B1,B3,C2,C3,C4pc,C6,N1,J10,J13,J17,N6,N10,N13,N17,Tü,V4,V11,V22,V26}]{śuddha} %stemma  
point
      \rdg[wit={J15}]{śruddha}
      \rdg[wit={B2,N19,V6}]{siddho\skp{-}}
      \rdg[wit={C1,V5}]{yogī} %s
      \rdg[wit={V1}]{suddha}
      \rdg[wit={J1,J3,J14,N2,N16}]{siddhi}
      \rdg[wit={J2}]{sandhi}
      \rdg[wit={N20}]{viddha}
      \rdg[wit={N22}]{sidha}
      \rdg[wit={N24}]{siddhar\skp{-}}
      \rdg[wit={V8}]{suddho}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={buddhaś  
ca}]{buddha\skp{ś-ca}}
      \rdg[wit={J2}]{tudhiś ca}
      \rdg[wit={C7}]{pādaś ca}
       
\rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={C6,J1,J3,N3,N16,N20,V2,V3,V26}]{buddhiś  
ca}%stemma point
      \rdg[wit={N22}]{nudhaś ca}
      \rdg[wit={N24}]{cuddhaś ca}
}\skm{ś-ca}
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{kanthaḍiḥ}
      \rdg[wit={B1}]{kanthariḥ}
      \rdg[wit={B2,N23}]{kanthaḍīḥ}
      \rdg[wit={C1,C6,J15,N10,N12,N20,N21,V6}]{kanthaḍī}
      \rdg[wit={C3}]{kanthaṭī}
      \rdg[wit={C4ac}]{kukuḍiḥ}
      \rdg[wit={V1,J10pc,N3}]{kanthalī}
      \rdg[wit={J10ac}]{kanhalī}
      \rdg[wit={N5}]{kaṃtharī}
      \rdg[wit={J2}]{kanthaḍi}
      \rdg[wit={J17,N6,N17,N22,V4,V11}]{kandalī} %
      \rdg[wit={V3}]{kanthaḍīṃ}
      \rdg[wit={J1}]{kanthaviḥ}
      \rdg[wit={V8}]{kandali}
      \rdg[wit={N13}]{kaṃpaṭiḥ}
      \rdg[wit={Tü}]{kaṃpaḍiḥ}
      \rdg[wit={M1}]{paddhatiḥ}
      \rdg[wit={V26}]{kānuṭiḥ}
     }/}\\
\tl{
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{pauraṇṭakaḥ }
      \rdg[wit={N22}]{pauraṃṭaka}
      \rdg[wit={N5}]{pauraṃṭhakaḥ } % group according to alphabetical order?
      \rdg[wit={B1,N1,N10,V6}]{pauraṇḍakaḥ }
      \rdg[wit={V11}]{pauraṇḍakaṃ }
      \rdg[wit={B2}]{pauraṇḍaṅka}
      \rdg[wit={C3}]{pauraṃṭaṃka}
      \rdg[wit={N16,N24}]{kauraṇṭakaḥ }
      \rdg[wit={N12}]{kauraṃṭaka}
      \rdg[wit={J14,V26}]{kauraṇḍakaḥ }
      \rdg[wit={J2}]{koraṃṭaka}
      \rdg[wit={J4,N21,N23}]{koraṃtakaḥ }
      \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={C6,N13,Tü,V22,Vu}]{koraṃṭakaḥ }% stemma point?
      \rdg[wit={N2}]{koraṇṭīkaḥ }
      \rdg[wit={N3}]{goraṃṭaka}
      \rdg[wit={M1}]{ghoraṃṭakaḥ }
      \rdg[wit={V8}]{\unm kāhapauraṇṭaka}
      \rdg[wit={Vu}]{koraṃḍīka}
      \rdg[wit={V2}]{kauraṃḍīkaḥ }
      \rdg[wit={N20}]{paura...kaḥ } %illeg
       
\rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,  
quantity=1}}}}
}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{surānandaḥ }
      \rdg[wit={B2,N12}]{sarānanda}
      \rdg[wit={C2,J2,N2,N3,V3,N22,V2}]{surānanda}
      \rdg[wit={N24}]{śurānaṃdaḥ }
      \rdg[wit={J4}]{sarānandaḥ }
       
\rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,  
quantity=1}}}}
}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{siddha}
      \rdg[wit={V1,J1,J2,N16,N24}]{siddhi}
      \rdg[wit={V8}]{siddhā}
       
\rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,  
quantity=1}}}}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={pādaś}]{pāda\skp{ś-ca}}
      \rdg[wit={N22}]{pāda}
       
\rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,  
quantity=1}}}}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={ca}]{\skm{ś-ca}}
      \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}}
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{carpaṭiḥ}
      \rdg[wit={B1,B2,N2,N17,N23,V3,V4}]{carppaṭiḥ}
      \rdg[wit={C3,J17,V6}]{carppaṭī}
      \rdg[wit={C4ac,C6,C7,V1,V2}]{carpaṭī}
      \rdg[wit={C4pc,J1,J15,N3,V8,N24}]{carpaṭi}
      \rdg[wit={J2}]{tarpaṭi}
      \rdg[wit={M1}]{parpaṭiḥ}
      \rdg[wit={N5}]{carpaṭīḥ}
      \rdg[wit={N11,V11}]{carpaṭaḥ}
       
\rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,  
quantity=1}}}}
%\note*{1.6cd is omitted in C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19.}
}//}
\end{tlg}

It is obvious that it is not possible to read the text anymore, a  
single verse does not even fit the screen. For
editing and selecting the variants one has to produce a formatted pdf version.

---------

Another disadvantage of the edmac style approach is that it expects  
European languages. Scripts are
no more the main problem, but the interaction of different scripts,  
word divisions and other minute
details make daily life of the editor complicated.

I hope the next example is more or less intelligible.
We have a Sanskrit text passage that reads in transcription as:

samyaggomaya

The word consists of two elements, samyag and gomaya, but in the  
Indian script that we use for the
critical text the "ggo" is a ligature. So in giving variants for both  
words, we cannot just
separate samyag and gomaya, for then the ligature gg is not printed  
correctly. We also want to
quote the correct word samyag in the apparatus (which is in roman!).  
Now, to make things more
complicated the xml text should contain the correct word division, so  
we have to split samyag and
gomaya. Thus, we now have to write the first "g" twice, first as  
\skp{g}, which explains to the xml
converter that this is the logical position of the g (in the word  
samyag), and \skm{g}, which tells
TeX to print this together with the next g as the ligature gg. Because  
of this mess, we need a
modified lemma, "alt={gomaya}" so that the apparatus comes out correctly.

\app{\lem[alt={samyag},wit={ceteri}]{samya\skp{g-}}
       \rdg[wit={B2}]{samyaṃ}
       \rdg[wit={J4}]{sāṃyaṃ}
       \rdg[wit={J13,V1,N2,N19,V11}]{samyak}
       \rdg[wit={N3}]{saṃ}
       \rdg[wit={V8}]{liptaṃ}
       \rdg[wit={N21}]{ramyaṃ}
       \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1}}}}
}%
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}, alt={gomaya}]{\skm{g-}gomaya}
       \rdg[wit={C4,C6,V3,V8,N13,N19,N21,N23,Tü,V4,V11}]{gomaya}
       \rdg[wit={V26}]{jogamaya}
       \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1}}}}
}

Please ignore the details, but perhaps you get my point. It is all  
becoming very ingenious and it
is a great relief that all this can be automatized. But it is also  
increasingly complicated to work
with and slowing down editing considerably.

This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical edition  
in ConTeXt. I was hoping for
something that can be kept simple.


> The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions  
> for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to  
> be copied?

Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.

Greetings
Jürgen







----- Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context  
<ntg-context@ntg.nl> ---------
      Datum: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:39:12 +0000
        Von: Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
Antwort an: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
    Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
         An: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
         Cc: Bruce Horrocks <ntg@scorecrow.com>, Idris Samawi Hamid  
<ishamid@colostate.edu>


>> On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context  
>> <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>>
>> a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that  
>> is present
>>
>> so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i  
>> suppose that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far
>
> I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an  
> effort to educate myself I found this page  
> <https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/examples.html> and thought about  
> how those examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't  
> take long to realise that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right  
> with his sample code.
>
> If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those  
> examples and put it onto the Wiki somewhere?
>
> The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions  
> for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to  
> be copied?
>
> —
> Bruce Horrocks
> Hampshire, UK
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an  
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /  
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________


----- Ende der Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context  
<ntg-context@ntg.nl> -----



---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

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I remember some discussions years ago with Pablo Rodriguez on this topic, and I have some previous discussions with a reledmac LaTeX French expert, about critical edition in the Medieval and/or Latin/Ancient Greek studies … Maybe Pablo has preserved some CTX samples ? I need to dig in my ‘archeological’ ConTeXt MWE ! But here is what would be clever to achieve with Context/Luame

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\setuplanguage[agr][patterns={agr, la}]
\mainlanguage[agr] % Greek as main language
\definefallbackfamily [mainface] [serif] [GFS Didot] [preset=range:greek]
\definefontfamily [mainface] [serif] [TeX Gyre Pagella]
\setuplayout[header=2cm, footer=2cm]
% \definemixedcolumns [columns] [balance=yes, blank={line,fixed}]
\setupnotes[compress=yes]
\setupnotations[alternative=serried]
\definelinenote[aNote]
\definelinenote[bNote][n=2]
\definelinenote[cNote][n=3]
\definelinenote[dNote][paragraph=yes]
\def\ANote#1#2{#1\aNote{#1] #2}}
\def\BNote#1#2{#1\bNote{#1] #2}}
\def\CNote#1#2{#1\cNote{#1] #2}}
\def\DNote#1#2{#1\dNote{#1] #2}}
\setupalign[hz, hanging]
\setuptolerance[strict]
\setuplinenumbering[step=5, location=inright, distance=1ex, align=center, width=0.5em]
\definemargindata[Stephanus][location=inner, distance=2ex, style=\em]
\setupbodyfont[mainface, 7.8pt]
    
\starttext
\start\fr % some text in French
Définir un apparat critique et le mettre en page avec un traitement de texte courant est un véritable casse-tête. \type{LaTeX} et \type{ConTeXt} offrent des outils d'automatisation encore assez mal connus dans la communauté des éditeurs, notamment dans l'édition savante, pour la collation et la comparaison de textes médiévaux.\par
\stop
% \unexpanded\def\setupcolumns{\setupmixedcolumns[columns]}
\dorecurse{2}{\startcolumns[n=2, balance=yes]}

\Stephanus{1a} Ὁμώνυμα λέγεται ὧν ὄνομα
    μόνον κοινόν, ὁ δὲ κατὰ τοὔνομα
    λόγος τῆς οὐσίας ἕτερος, οἷον ζῷον
    ὅ τε ἄνθρωπος καὶ τὸ γεγραμμένον·
    τούτων γὰρ ὄνομα μόνον κοινόν, ὁ δὲ
    κατὰ τοὔνομα λόγος τῆς οὐσίας
    ἕτερος· ἐὰν γὰρ ἀποδιδῷ τις τί
    ἐστιν αὐτῶν ἑκατέρῳ τὸ ζῴῳ
    εἶναι, ἴδιον ἑκατέρου λόγον ἀποδώσει.\par
    συνώνυμα δὲ λέγεται ὧν τό τε ὄνομα κοινὸν καὶ ὁ κατὰ τοὔνομα λόγος τῆς οὐσίας ὁ αὐτός, οἷον ζῷον ὅ τε ἄνθρωπος καὶ ὁ βοῦς• τούτων γὰρ ἑκάτερον κοινῷ ὀνόματι προσαγορεύεται ζῷον, καὶ ὁ λόγος δὲ τῆς οὐσίας ὁ αὐτός• ἐὰν γὰρ ἀποδιδῷ τις τὸν ἑκατέρου λόγον τί ἐστιν αὐτῶν ἑκατέρῳ τὸ ζῴῳ εἶναι, τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον ἀποδώσει.\par
    παρώνυμα δὲ λέγεται ὅσα ἀπό τινος διαφέροντα τῇ πτώσει τὴν κατὰ τοὔνομα προσηγορίαν ἔχει, οἷον ἀπὸ τῆς γραμματικῆς ὁ γραμματικὸς καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς ἀνδρείας ὁ ἀνδρεῖος. 

    \column

    \startlinenumbering[continue]
    Aequivoca dicuntur quorum \CNote{nomen}{première note} solum
    commune est, secundum nomen vero \ANote{substantiae}{seconde note}
    \ANote{ratio}{seconde note} diversa, ut animal
    \DNote{homo}{troisième note} et quod pingitur. Horum enim solum
    nomen commune est, secundum nomen vero substantiae ratio diversa;
    si enim quis assignet quid est utrique eorum quo sint animalia,
    propriam assignabit utriusque rationem.\par
    Univoca vero dicuntur quorum et nomen\CNote{nomen}{première note} commune est et secundum nomen eadem substantiae\ANote{substantiae}{seconde note} ratio\ANote{ratio}{seconde note}, ut animal homo atque bos. Communi enim nomine utrique animalia nuncupantur, et est ratio substantiae eadem; si quis enim assignet utriusque rationem, quid utrique sit quo sint animalia, eandem assignabit rationem.\par
    Denominativa vero dicuntur quaecumque ab aliquo, solo differentia casu, secundum nomen habent appellationem, ut a grammatica grammaticus et a fortitudine fortis.
    \stoplinenumbering

    \stopcolumns}
    \stoptext

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tatex (see attached files)

> Le 3 janv. 2022 à 10:43, hanneder--- via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> a écrit :
> 
> 
> Dear Bruce and Hans,
> 
> thanks for you responses and I apologize for the lengthy post, which is just to give you an
> impression of the current practice in my field (Sanskrit Studies, Indology).
> 
> For the last two decades edmac and its further developments (now reledmac) have become the standard
> for critical editions. In my experience the basic requirements for typesetting critical editions
> were and are:
> 
> - footnotes have to be formatted in paragraphs
> - multiple footnotes layers stacked below the critical text must be possible
> - automatic reference to linenumbers
> - or: manual references to verse numbers
> - language specific requirements (more complicated, see below)
> 
> In the last years new requirements have been added:
> 
> - some funding institutions in the academic world practically enforce online editions
> - data have to be made available in TEI xml format
> 
> This is where a new (LuaTeX) package called ekdosis, currently being developed by Robert Alessi,
> comes in. It produces a printed version and in the same TeX run an xml file. In an ongoing
> editorial project we are using this method and it works very well. While the system is ingenious
> and a great relief (for we do not have to work with xml directly), I am also critical about these
> new demands, because they force us to use a fairly complex system for sometimes quite simple tasks.
> I am a Sanskritist, we do not have huge budgets or a large staff, so efficiency is an issue. We
> also do not have the resources for the long-term care for data such as online editions, but this is
> another problem.
> 
> In a previous project, a large edition (30000 verses, 15 years), I tried to use the easiest
> method. It turned out that edmac was not even necessary and not using it made the main file from
> which we are working very readable and greatly simplified daily work. Just to give you an
> impression from our input file: The first two lines in the next paragraph are the Sanskrit text in
> transcription, \var produces a variant with reference to the verse number and verse quarter
> (a-d). So no line numbering was even necessary. The \lem produces the sign that divides the
> critical text and its witnesses from the variants, usually "]", the rest are sigla, like S1, S3
> etc.
> 
> mumukṣuvyavahāroktimayāt prakaraṇād anu   \danda
> athotpattiprakaraṇaṃ mayedaṃ parikathyate  \sloka{1.5}
>   \var{5b}{anu \Sseven \Sft \lem \emph{param} \Sone \Sthree \Snine \Ntwelve \Ntw}
> 
> I used pdflatex and memoir, which has paragraphed footnotes. Here is the relevant section from the
> preamble:
> 
> \renewcommand*{\@makefnmark}{}
> \newfootnoteseries{P}
> \paragraphfootstyle{P}
> \renewcommand{\thefootnoteP}{}
> \footmarkstyleP{}
> \renewcommand{\@makefnmarkP}{\hskip-2.2pt}
> \renewcommand{\footnoterule}{}
> \setlength{\stockheight}{6in}
> \renewcommand{\linenumberfont}{\normalfont\tiny}
> \setlength{\linenumbersep}{0pt}\setlength{\linenumberwidth}{0pt}\modulolinenumbers[2]
> \setlength{\footmarkwidth}{0em}
> \setlength{\footmarksep}{-\footmarkwidth}
> \addtolength{\skip\footins}{2mm plus 1mm}
> \leftskip=.2cm            % indent of the verses
> \def\var#1#2{\footnoteP{#1 #2}}  % footnotes
> 
> 
> This is what I compiled from different examples (I am not a programmer), but it worked -- the
> edition has produced quite a few volumes and is almost finished!
> 
> Working with this file was easy, because one could easily read the text.  The usual edmac code
> would have required us to identify an lemma with \edtext and then write the variant directly into
> the text. This may not matter in the case of few variants, but with many variants the text is
> quickly rendered unreadable -- even with all tricks to make footnotes invisible (I use folding in
> emacs). The following would be a single example verse (32 syllables, same size as the one quoted
> above), encoded in ekdosis and with lots of manuscripts:
> 
> \begin{tlg}[hp16][]
> \tl{
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{manthāna}
>     \rdg[type=stemmaerror,wit={B2}]{\unm śrīmanthāna} % stemma error
>     \rdg[wit={C4,L1,N5}]{manthāra}
>     \rdg[wit={N13,Tü,V1,V22,Vu}]{manthāno\skp{-}}
>     \rdg[wit={J2}]{mandāra}}%
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{bhairavo}
>     \rdg[wit={N20}]{mairavo}
>     \rdg[wit={N23}]{bhairavā}
>     \rdg[wit={V26}]{bhaivarau}}
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{yogī}
>     \rdg[wit={J2}]{jogī}
>     \rdg[wit={C1}]{siddha}
>     \rdg[wit={V5}]{siddhe}
>     \rdg[wit={J15,V8}]{yogi}}
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{siddha}
>     \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={B1,B3,C2,C3,C4pc,C6,N1,J10,J13,J17,N6,N10,N13,N17,Tü,V4,V11,V22,V26}]{śuddha} %stemma point
>     \rdg[wit={J15}]{śruddha}
>     \rdg[wit={B2,N19,V6}]{siddho\skp{-}}
>     \rdg[wit={C1,V5}]{yogī} %s
>     \rdg[wit={V1}]{suddha}
>     \rdg[wit={J1,J3,J14,N2,N16}]{siddhi}
>     \rdg[wit={J2}]{sandhi}
>     \rdg[wit={N20}]{viddha}
>     \rdg[wit={N22}]{sidha}
>     \rdg[wit={N24}]{siddhar\skp{-}}
>     \rdg[wit={V8}]{suddho}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={buddhaś ca}]{buddha\skp{ś-ca}}
>     \rdg[wit={J2}]{tudhiś ca}
>     \rdg[wit={C7}]{pādaś ca}
>     \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={C6,J1,J3,N3,N16,N20,V2,V3,V26}]{buddhiś ca}%stemma point
>     \rdg[wit={N22}]{nudhaś ca}
>     \rdg[wit={N24}]{cuddhaś ca}
> }\skm{ś-ca}
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{kanthaḍiḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={B1}]{kanthariḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={B2,N23}]{kanthaḍīḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={C1,C6,J15,N10,N12,N20,N21,V6}]{kanthaḍī}
>     \rdg[wit={C3}]{kanthaṭī}
>     \rdg[wit={C4ac}]{kukuḍiḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={V1,J10pc,N3}]{kanthalī}
>     \rdg[wit={J10ac}]{kanhalī}
>     \rdg[wit={N5}]{kaṃtharī}
>     \rdg[wit={J2}]{kanthaḍi}
>     \rdg[wit={J17,N6,N17,N22,V4,V11}]{kandalī} %
>     \rdg[wit={V3}]{kanthaḍīṃ}
>     \rdg[wit={J1}]{kanthaviḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={V8}]{kandali}
>     \rdg[wit={N13}]{kaṃpaṭiḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={Tü}]{kaṃpaḍiḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={M1}]{paddhatiḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={V26}]{kānuṭiḥ}
>    }/}\\
> \tl{
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{pauraṇṭakaḥ }
>     \rdg[wit={N22}]{pauraṃṭaka}
>     \rdg[wit={N5}]{pauraṃṭhakaḥ } % group according to alphabetical order?
>     \rdg[wit={B1,N1,N10,V6}]{pauraṇḍakaḥ }
>     \rdg[wit={V11}]{pauraṇḍakaṃ }
>     \rdg[wit={B2}]{pauraṇḍaṅka}
>     \rdg[wit={C3}]{pauraṃṭaṃka}
>     \rdg[wit={N16,N24}]{kauraṇṭakaḥ }
>     \rdg[wit={N12}]{kauraṃṭaka}
>     \rdg[wit={J14,V26}]{kauraṇḍakaḥ }
>     \rdg[wit={J2}]{koraṃṭaka}
>     \rdg[wit={J4,N21,N23}]{koraṃtakaḥ }
>     \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={C6,N13,Tü,V22,Vu}]{koraṃṭakaḥ }% stemma point?
>     \rdg[wit={N2}]{koraṇṭīkaḥ }
>     \rdg[wit={N3}]{goraṃṭaka}
>     \rdg[wit={M1}]{ghoraṃṭakaḥ }
>     \rdg[wit={V8}]{\unm kāhapauraṇṭaka}
>     \rdg[wit={Vu}]{koraṃḍīka}
>     \rdg[wit={V2}]{kauraṃḍīkaḥ }
>     \rdg[wit={N20}]{paura...kaḥ } %illeg
>     \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}
> }\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{surānandaḥ }
>     \rdg[wit={B2,N12}]{sarānanda}
>     \rdg[wit={C2,J2,N2,N3,V3,N22,V2}]{surānanda}
>     \rdg[wit={N24}]{śurānaṃdaḥ }
>     \rdg[wit={J4}]{sarānandaḥ }
>     \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}
> }\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{siddha}
>     \rdg[wit={V1,J1,J2,N16,N24}]{siddhi}
>     \rdg[wit={V8}]{siddhā}
>     \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={pādaś}]{pāda\skp{ś-ca}}
>     \rdg[wit={N22}]{pāda}
>     \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={ca}]{\skm{ś-ca}}
>     \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}}
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{carpaṭiḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={B1,B2,N2,N17,N23,V3,V4}]{carppaṭiḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={C3,J17,V6}]{carppaṭī}
>     \rdg[wit={C4ac,C6,C7,V1,V2}]{carpaṭī}
>     \rdg[wit={C4pc,J1,J15,N3,V8,N24}]{carpaṭi}
>     \rdg[wit={J2}]{tarpaṭi}
>     \rdg[wit={M1}]{parpaṭiḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={N5}]{carpaṭīḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={N11,V11}]{carpaṭaḥ}
>     \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, quantity=1}}}}
> %\note*{1.6cd is omitted in C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19.}
> }//}
> \end{tlg}
> 
> It is obvious that it is not possible to read the text anymore, a single verse does not even fit the screen. For
> editing and selecting the variants one has to produce a formatted pdf version.
> 
> ---------
> 
> Another disadvantage of the edmac style approach is that it expects European languages. Scripts are
> no more the main problem, but the interaction of different scripts, word divisions and other minute
> details make daily life of the editor complicated.
> 
> I hope the next example is more or less intelligible.
> We have a Sanskrit text passage that reads in transcription as:
> 
> samyaggomaya
> 
> The word consists of two elements, samyag and gomaya, but in the Indian script that we use for the
> critical text the "ggo" is a ligature. So in giving variants for both words, we cannot just
> separate samyag and gomaya, for then the ligature gg is not printed correctly. We also want to
> quote the correct word samyag in the apparatus (which is in roman!). Now, to make things more
> complicated the xml text should contain the correct word division, so we have to split samyag and
> gomaya. Thus, we now have to write the first "g" twice, first as \skp{g}, which explains to the xml
> converter that this is the logical position of the g (in the word samyag), and \skm{g}, which tells
> TeX to print this together with the next g as the ligature gg. Because of this mess, we need a
> modified lemma, "alt={gomaya}" so that the apparatus comes out correctly.
> 
> \app{\lem[alt={samyag},wit={ceteri}]{samya\skp{g-}}
>      \rdg[wit={B2}]{samyaṃ}
>      \rdg[wit={J4}]{sāṃyaṃ}
>      \rdg[wit={J13,V1,N2,N19,V11}]{samyak}
>      \rdg[wit={N3}]{saṃ}
>      \rdg[wit={V8}]{liptaṃ}
>      \rdg[wit={N21}]{ramyaṃ}
>      \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1}}}}
> }%
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}, alt={gomaya}]{\skm{g-}gomaya}
>      \rdg[wit={C4,C6,V3,V8,N13,N19,N21,N23,Tü,V4,V11}]{gomaya}
>      \rdg[wit={V26}]{jogamaya}
>      \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1}}}}
> }
> 
> Please ignore the details, but perhaps you get my point. It is all becoming very ingenious and it
> is a great relief that all this can be automatized. But it is also increasingly complicated to work
> with and slowing down editing considerably.
> 
> This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical edition in ConTeXt. I was hoping for
> something that can be kept simple.
> 
> 
>> The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied?
> 
> Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.
> 
> Greetings
> Jürgen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> ---------
>     Datum: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:39:12 +0000
>       Von: Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> Antwort an: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
>   Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
>        An: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
>        Cc: Bruce Horrocks <ntg@scorecrow.com>, Idris Samawi Hamid <ishamid@colostate.edu>
> 
> 
>>> On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>>> 
>>> a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that is present
>>> 
>>> so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i suppose that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far
>> 
>> I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an effort to educate myself I found this page <https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/examples.html> and thought about how those examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't take long to realise that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right with his sample code.
>> 
>> If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those examples and put it onto the Wiki somewhere?
>> 
>> The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied?
>> 
>> —
>> Bruce Horrocks
>> Hampshire, UK
>> 
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> ----- Ende der Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> -----
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstr.12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________


[-- Attachment #5: Type: text/plain, Size: 493 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

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Hello dear "critical edition" scholars !

I do remember who was the French geek on reledmac and reledpar (LaTeX) : 
he is Maieul Rouquette (please read this page 
https://github.com/maieul/ledmac).

We (Pablo Rodriguez mainly and I) have tried few years ago to somehow 
follow a possible path within CTX in order to clarify what was possible 
with critical edition, which means : 1) a main text with 2) several 
levels of footnotes showing different version of this text (mainly 
differences or alterations of the main text, mainly in  words 
occurences, specially within Medieval copies of the same text). It may 
be useful to have the original text (say : Ancient Greek or whatever) on 
the left column, with the translation on the right column (say : Latin 
or whatever), and the 'criticus apparatus' in the different level of 
footnotes. This kind of page suppose to have under the hand 
(zuhandenheit or vorhandenheit ?) some tools/commands in order to deal 
with the text extension in the column at right ...

Pablo has proposed a MWE, but since I made previously a mistake among 
files I have send to the list, I am going back with a MWE as attached 
file (I send the *.tex & *.pdf files), produced under mtx-context     | 
current version: 2020.01.30 (!).

I hope this may give some help to those who want to clarify how CTX/LMTX 
may be useful in such topic.

JP

Le 03/01/2022 à 10:43, hanneder--- via ntg-context a écrit :
>
> Dear Bruce and Hans,
>
> thanks for you responses and I apologize for the lengthy post, which 
> is just to give you an
> impression of the current practice in my field (Sanskrit Studies, 
> Indology).
>
> For the last two decades edmac and its further developments (now 
> reledmac) have become the standard
> for critical editions. In my experience the basic requirements for 
> typesetting critical editions
> were and are:
>
> - footnotes have to be formatted in paragraphs
> - multiple footnotes layers stacked below the critical text must be 
> possible
> - automatic reference to linenumbers
> - or: manual references to verse numbers
> - language specific requirements (more complicated, see below)
>
> In the last years new requirements have been added:
>
> - some funding institutions in the academic world practically enforce 
> online editions
> - data have to be made available in TEI xml format
>
> This is where a new (LuaTeX) package called ekdosis, currently being 
> developed by Robert Alessi,
> comes in. It produces a printed version and in the same TeX run an xml 
> file. In an ongoing
> editorial project we are using this method and it works very well. 
> While the system is ingenious
> and a great relief (for we do not have to work with xml directly), I 
> am also critical about these
> new demands, because they force us to use a fairly complex system for 
> sometimes quite simple tasks.
> I am a Sanskritist, we do not have huge budgets or a large staff, so 
> efficiency is an issue. We
> also do not have the resources for the long-term care for data such as 
> online editions, but this is
> another problem.
>
> In a previous project, a large edition (30000 verses, 15 years), I 
> tried to use the easiest
> method. It turned out that edmac was not even necessary and not using 
> it made the main file from
> which we are working very readable and greatly simplified daily work. 
> Just to give you an
> impression from our input file: The first two lines in the next 
> paragraph are the Sanskrit text in
> transcription, \var produces a variant with reference to the verse 
> number and verse quarter
> (a-d). So no line numbering was even necessary. The \lem produces the 
> sign that divides the
> critical text and its witnesses from the variants, usually "]", the 
> rest are sigla, like S1, S3
> etc.
>
> mumukṣuvyavahāroktimayāt prakaraṇād anu   \danda
> athotpattiprakaraṇaṃ mayedaṃ parikathyate  \sloka{1.5}
>    \var{5b}{anu \Sseven \Sft \lem \emph{param} \Sone \Sthree \Snine 
> \Ntwelve \Ntw}
>
> I used pdflatex and memoir, which has paragraphed footnotes. Here is 
> the relevant section from the
> preamble:
>
> \renewcommand*{\@makefnmark}{}
> \newfootnoteseries{P}
> \paragraphfootstyle{P}
> \renewcommand{\thefootnoteP}{}
> \footmarkstyleP{}
> \renewcommand{\@makefnmarkP}{\hskip-2.2pt}
> \renewcommand{\footnoterule}{}
> \setlength{\stockheight}{6in}
> \renewcommand{\linenumberfont}{\normalfont\tiny}
> \setlength{\linenumbersep}{0pt}\setlength{\linenumberwidth}{0pt}\modulolinenumbers[2] 
>
> \setlength{\footmarkwidth}{0em}
> \setlength{\footmarksep}{-\footmarkwidth}
> \addtolength{\skip\footins}{2mm plus 1mm}
> \leftskip=.2cm            % indent of the verses
> \def\var#1#2{\footnoteP{#1 #2}}  % footnotes
>
>
> This is what I compiled from different examples (I am not a 
> programmer), but it worked -- the
> edition has produced quite a few volumes and is almost finished!
>
> Working with this file was easy, because one could easily read the 
> text.  The usual edmac code
> would have required us to identify an lemma with \edtext and then 
> write the variant directly into
> the text. This may not matter in the case of few variants, but with 
> many variants the text is
> quickly rendered unreadable -- even with all tricks to make footnotes 
> invisible (I use folding in
> emacs). The following would be a single example verse (32 syllables, 
> same size as the one quoted
> above), encoded in ekdosis and with lots of manuscripts:
>
> \begin{tlg}[hp16][]
> \tl{
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{manthāna}
>      \rdg[type=stemmaerror,wit={B2}]{\unm śrīmanthāna} % stemma error
>      \rdg[wit={C4,L1,N5}]{manthāra}
>      \rdg[wit={N13,Tü,V1,V22,Vu}]{manthāno\skp{-}}
>      \rdg[wit={J2}]{mandāra}}%
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{bhairavo}
>      \rdg[wit={N20}]{mairavo}
>      \rdg[wit={N23}]{bhairavā}
>      \rdg[wit={V26}]{bhaivarau}}
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{yogī}
>      \rdg[wit={J2}]{jogī}
>      \rdg[wit={C1}]{siddha}
>      \rdg[wit={V5}]{siddhe}
>      \rdg[wit={J15,V8}]{yogi}}
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{siddha}
> \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={B1,B3,C2,C3,C4pc,C6,N1,J10,J13,J17,N6,N10,N13,N17,Tü,V4,V11,V22,V26}]{śuddha} 
> %stemma point
>      \rdg[wit={J15}]{śruddha}
>      \rdg[wit={B2,N19,V6}]{siddho\skp{-}}
>      \rdg[wit={C1,V5}]{yogī} %s
>      \rdg[wit={V1}]{suddha}
>      \rdg[wit={J1,J3,J14,N2,N16}]{siddhi}
>      \rdg[wit={J2}]{sandhi}
>      \rdg[wit={N20}]{viddha}
>      \rdg[wit={N22}]{sidha}
>      \rdg[wit={N24}]{siddhar\skp{-}}
>      \rdg[wit={V8}]{suddho}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={buddhaś 
> ca}]{buddha\skp{ś-ca}}
>      \rdg[wit={J2}]{tudhiś ca}
>      \rdg[wit={C7}]{pādaś ca}
> \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={C6,J1,J3,N3,N16,N20,V2,V3,V26}]{buddhiś 
> ca}%stemma point
>      \rdg[wit={N22}]{nudhaś ca}
>      \rdg[wit={N24}]{cuddhaś ca}
> }\skm{ś-ca}
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{kanthaḍiḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={B1}]{kanthariḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={B2,N23}]{kanthaḍīḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={C1,C6,J15,N10,N12,N20,N21,V6}]{kanthaḍī}
>      \rdg[wit={C3}]{kanthaṭī}
>      \rdg[wit={C4ac}]{kukuḍiḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={V1,J10pc,N3}]{kanthalī}
>      \rdg[wit={J10ac}]{kanhalī}
>      \rdg[wit={N5}]{kaṃtharī}
>      \rdg[wit={J2}]{kanthaḍi}
>      \rdg[wit={J17,N6,N17,N22,V4,V11}]{kandalī} %
>      \rdg[wit={V3}]{kanthaḍīṃ}
>      \rdg[wit={J1}]{kanthaviḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={V8}]{kandali}
>      \rdg[wit={N13}]{kaṃpaṭiḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={Tü}]{kaṃpaḍiḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={M1}]{paddhatiḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={V26}]{kānuṭiḥ}
>     }/}\\
> \tl{
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{pauraṇṭakaḥ }
>      \rdg[wit={N22}]{pauraṃṭaka}
>      \rdg[wit={N5}]{pauraṃṭhakaḥ } % group according to alphabetical 
> order?
>      \rdg[wit={B1,N1,N10,V6}]{pauraṇḍakaḥ }
>      \rdg[wit={V11}]{pauraṇḍakaṃ }
>      \rdg[wit={B2}]{pauraṇḍaṅka}
>      \rdg[wit={C3}]{pauraṃṭaṃka}
>      \rdg[wit={N16,N24}]{kauraṇṭakaḥ }
>      \rdg[wit={N12}]{kauraṃṭaka}
>      \rdg[wit={J14,V26}]{kauraṇḍakaḥ }
>      \rdg[wit={J2}]{koraṃṭaka}
>      \rdg[wit={J4,N21,N23}]{koraṃtakaḥ }
>      \rdg[type=stemmapoint,wit={C6,N13,Tü,V22,Vu}]{koraṃṭakaḥ }% 
> stemma point?
>      \rdg[wit={N2}]{koraṇṭīkaḥ }
>      \rdg[wit={N3}]{goraṃṭaka}
>      \rdg[wit={M1}]{ghoraṃṭakaḥ }
>      \rdg[wit={V8}]{\unm kāhapauraṇṭaka}
>      \rdg[wit={Vu}]{koraṃḍīka}
>      \rdg[wit={V2}]{kauraṃḍīkaḥ }
>      \rdg[wit={N20}]{paura...kaḥ } %illeg
> \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, 
> quantity=1}}}}
> }\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{surānandaḥ }
>      \rdg[wit={B2,N12}]{sarānanda}
>      \rdg[wit={C2,J2,N2,N3,V3,N22,V2}]{surānanda}
>      \rdg[wit={N24}]{śurānaṃdaḥ }
>      \rdg[wit={J4}]{sarānandaḥ }
> \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, 
> quantity=1}}}}
> }\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{siddha}
>      \rdg[wit={V1,J1,J2,N16,N24}]{siddhi}
>      \rdg[wit={V8}]{siddhā}
> \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, 
> quantity=1}}}}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={pādaś}]{pāda\skp{ś-ca}}
>      \rdg[wit={N22}]{pāda}
> \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, 
> quantity=1}}}}}\app{\lem[wit={ceteri},alt={ca}]{\skm{ś-ca}}
>      \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, 
> quantity=1}}}}}
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}]{carpaṭiḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={B1,B2,N2,N17,N23,V3,V4}]{carppaṭiḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={C3,J17,V6}]{carppaṭī}
>      \rdg[wit={C4ac,C6,C7,V1,V2}]{carpaṭī}
>      \rdg[wit={C4pc,J1,J15,N3,V8,N24}]{carpaṭi}
>      \rdg[wit={J2}]{tarpaṭi}
>      \rdg[wit={M1}]{parpaṭiḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={N5}]{carpaṭīḥ}
>      \rdg[wit={N11,V11}]{carpaṭaḥ}
> \rdg[wit={C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word, 
> quantity=1}}}}
> %\note*{1.6cd is omitted in C1,J3,L1,N11,V5,V19.}
> }//}
> \end{tlg}
>
> It is obvious that it is not possible to read the text anymore, a 
> single verse does not even fit the screen. For
> editing and selecting the variants one has to produce a formatted pdf 
> version.
>
> ---------
>
> Another disadvantage of the edmac style approach is that it expects 
> European languages. Scripts are
> no more the main problem, but the interaction of different scripts, 
> word divisions and other minute
> details make daily life of the editor complicated.
>
> I hope the next example is more or less intelligible.
> We have a Sanskrit text passage that reads in transcription as:
>
> samyaggomaya
>
> The word consists of two elements, samyag and gomaya, but in the 
> Indian script that we use for the
> critical text the "ggo" is a ligature. So in giving variants for both 
> words, we cannot just
> separate samyag and gomaya, for then the ligature gg is not printed 
> correctly. We also want to
> quote the correct word samyag in the apparatus (which is in roman!). 
> Now, to make things more
> complicated the xml text should contain the correct word division, so 
> we have to split samyag and
> gomaya. Thus, we now have to write the first "g" twice, first as 
> \skp{g}, which explains to the xml
> converter that this is the logical position of the g (in the word 
> samyag), and \skm{g}, which tells
> TeX to print this together with the next g as the ligature gg. Because 
> of this mess, we need a
> modified lemma, "alt={gomaya}" so that the apparatus comes out correctly.
>
> \app{\lem[alt={samyag},wit={ceteri}]{samya\skp{g-}}
>       \rdg[wit={B2}]{samyaṃ}
>       \rdg[wit={J4}]{sāṃyaṃ}
>       \rdg[wit={J13,V1,N2,N19,V11}]{samyak}
>       \rdg[wit={N3}]{saṃ}
>       \rdg[wit={V8}]{liptaṃ}
>       \rdg[wit={N21}]{ramyaṃ}
> \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1}}}}
> }%
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}, alt={gomaya}]{\skm{g-}gomaya}
>       \rdg[wit={C4,C6,V3,V8,N13,N19,N21,N23,Tü,V4,V11}]{gomaya}
>       \rdg[wit={V26}]{jogamaya}
> \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1}}}}
> }
>
> Please ignore the details, but perhaps you get my point. It is all 
> becoming very ingenious and it
> is a great relief that all this can be automatized. But it is also 
> increasingly complicated to work
> with and slowing down editing considerably.
>
> This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical edition 
> in ConTeXt. I was hoping for
> something that can be kept simple.
>
>
>> The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions 
>> for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to 
>> be copied?
>
> Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.
>
> Greetings
> Jürgen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context 
> <ntg-context@ntg.nl> ---------
>      Datum: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:39:12 +0000
>        Von: Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> Antwort an: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
>    Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
>         An: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
>         Cc: Bruce Horrocks <ntg@scorecrow.com>, Idris Samawi Hamid 
> <ishamid@colostate.edu>
>
>
>>> On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context 
>>> <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that 
>>> is present
>>>
>>> so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i 
>>> suppose that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far
>>
>> I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an 
>> effort to educate myself I found this page 
>> <https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/examples.html> and thought about how 
>> those examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't take 
>> long to realise that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right with 
>> his sample code.
>>
>> If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those 
>> examples and put it onto the Wiki somewhere?
>>
>> The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions 
>> for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to 
>> be copied?
>>
>> —
>> Bruce Horrocks
>> Hampshire, UK
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>>
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an 
>> entry to the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>>
>
>
> ----- Ende der Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context 
> <ntg-context@ntg.nl> -----
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstr.12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry 
> to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients&Moderns
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

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 % Le script suivant nécessite différents tests avec une manipulation des paramètres, afin de préciser ce qui convient le mieux à votre travail d'édition. Ce script offre le schéma de plusieurs possibilités d'affichage des notes en bas de page avec diverses possibilités simultanées. On peut affiner encore, en ajoutant d'autres commandes stipulant les marges, les en-têtes, le numéro des pages, etc.
 \mainlanguage[la] % Définition du latin comme langue principale du document.
 \setupbodyfontenvironment[default][em=italic]
 \setuplayout[header=2cm, footer=2cm] % Paramétrage de la page;
 \setuplinenumbering[step=2] % La sortie PDF comportera une numérotation de 5 en 5; on peut régler sur 1 (ou 10).
 \setupnotations[alternative=serried] % On définit le caractère séquentiel des notes.
 \definelinenote[aNote] % Plusieurs manières d'afficher les notes ici, notamment en une ou en plusieurs colonnes (n=2, ou n=3).
 \definelinenote[bNote][n=2]
 \definelinenote[cNote][n=3]
 \definelinenote[dNote][paragraph=yes] % Les notes se suivent sur la même ligne.
 \def\ANote#1#2{#1\aNote{#1] #2}}
 \def\BNote#1#2{#1\bNote{#1] #2}}
 \def\CNote#1#2{#1\cNote{#1] #2}}
 \def\DNote#1#2{#1\dNote{#1] #2}}
 \setupbodyfont[palatino, 7.8pt]
 \starttext
 \start\fr % On indique à ConTeXt que l'on veut ici du texte en français (ou 'en' pour l'anglais).
{\em Définir un apparat critique et le mettre en page avec un traitement de texte courant est un véritable casse-tête. \type{LaTeX} et \type{ConTeXt} offrent des outils d'automatisation encore assez mal connus dans la communauté des éditeurs, notamment dans l'édition savante, pour la collation et la comparaison de textes médiévaux}.\par
 \startlinenumbering
 \dorecurse{6}% À utiliser seulement pour répéter le paragraphe suivant, ici 8 fois.
    {Cum defensionum \CNote{laboribus}{première note} senatoriisque
    muneribus aut omnino aut magna ex parte essem aliquando liberatus,
    rettuli me, Brute, te hortante maxime ad ea studia, quae retenta
    animo, remissa temporibus, longo intervallo intermissa revocavi, et
    cum omnium artium, quae ad rectam vivendi viam pertinerent,
    \ANote{ratio}{seconde note} et disciplina studio sapientiae, quae
    philosophia dicitur, contineretur, hoc mihi Latinis litteris
    \DNote{inlustrandum}{troisième note} putavi, non quia
    \BNote{philosophia}{quatrième note} Graecis et litteris et doctoribus
    percipi non posset, sed meum semper iudicium fuit omnia nostros aut
    invenisse per se sapientius quam Graecos aut accepta ab illis
    fecisse meliora, quae quidem digna statuissent, in quibus
    elaborarent.\par}
 \stoplinenumbering
 \stoptext

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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STIX2 font issues with freshly installed FMTX

[Heinrich Paeßens via ntg-context]

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Hi there

as a newcomer in ConTeXt I installed according to 

https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installing_ConTeXt_LMTX_on_MacOS/

and using TeXShop on macos as advised.

However, I like to use STIX2-Fonts for Text and Math and hence my MWE to test which fonts are going to be embedded (CLI pdffonts):

————-
\setupbodyfont[stixtwo]
\starttext

Test ß 1lIjJuQ \% § \& ?! VERSAL-ẞ- \|> --- 1234567890 --- //

\placeformula[eqn:def-m]
\startformula
    m = \frac{m_0}{\sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}}}
\stopformula
\stoptext
————-

Unfortunately the compiler throws an error — why is there a check of STIX2-fonts versions, why is that important?

I checked and found 

/Users/hp/Library/Fonts/STIXTwoText-Regular.otf Version 2.12 b168
/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/stix2-otf/STIXTwoText-Regular.otf Version 2.11 b159

Could you please advise for a work around?

from the log:

————-
fonts           > otf loading > loading 'stixtwotext-regular.otf', hash 'stixtwotext-regular'
otf reader      > unknown version '



' in file 'stixtwotext-regular.otf'
fonts           > otf loading > loading done
fonts           > otf loading > saving 'stixtwotext-regular.otf' in cache
system          > lua > compiling '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tma' into '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tmd'
system          > lua > dumping '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tma' into '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tmd' stripped
fonts           > otf loading > loading, optimizing, packing and caching time 0.002
lua error       > lua error on line 1 in file ./Untitled.tex:

registered function call [1129]: ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:325: attempt to index a nil value (upvalue 'descriptions')
stack traceback:
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:325: in local 'prepare_ligature'
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:770: in upvalue 'addfeature'
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:899: in local 'enhancer'
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-con.lmt:1269: in upvalue 'enhance'
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-con.lmt:1291: in field 'apply'
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:263: in field 'load'
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:602: in upvalue 'otftotfm'
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:630: in function <...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:629>
	(...tail calls...)
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-def.lmt:378: in function <...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-def.lmt:366>
	(...tail calls...)
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-def.lmt:484: in field 'read'
	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-ctx.lmt:1336: in function <...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-ctx.lmt:1193>
	(...tail calls...)
 1 >>  \setupbodyfont[stixtwo]
————-

Many thanks for your support.
Kind regards

Heinrich Paeßens 
Mobile +49 1512 123 9876 <tel:+4915121239876>
Business Card <https://www.paessens.tel/img/heinrich-paessens_bc-2021-03-11_signed.pdf>


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Re: Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 12/21/21 10:50 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
>
> Details:
> I was able to find the article "Ediciones críticas con ConTeXt" (is
> this in use?)

Hi Jürgen,

if you mean http://www.ediciones-criticas.tk/pdf/criticas-context.pdf,
this is outdated. I hope to update it in a not so distant future...  😅.

> I also found out that for simple editions context already works. For
> critical editions in my field we need both footnote references based
> on linenumbers (for prose), but also references to verse number,
> which can be entered manually.
As far as I can remember linenotes are footnotes with references to line
numbers.

I don’t think it makes a difference if the line number is set
automatically by ConTeXt or the user specifies a given value.

> So far, so good. Any hints to a more sophisticated solution are highly
> welcome. (I am a simple TeX user)

I’m only a ConTeXt newbie (who has been using it for about a decade 😅).

There might be other solutions, but I’m afraid I don’t know which is
exactly the problem you are facing.

Sorry, but the text structure isn’t clear to me (this is independent
from the fact that I don’t understand a word from the language you may
be using).

BTW, I could only make your sample work in the following form:

    \starttext
    \setupnotation[linenote]
    [alternative=serried,width=broad,distance=.5em,display=no]
    \setupnote[linenote][way=bypage,paragraph=yes,rule=off]

    \definenote [variant]
    \setupnotation[variant][number=no]
    \setupnote[variant][way=bypage,paragraph=yes,rule=off]

    \definelines[slokaed][][indenting={yes, small, even},
        before={\startnarrower\startlinenumbering},
        after={\stoplinenumbering\stopnarrower}]

    \definelines[slokaedplain][][indenting={yes, small, even},
        before=\startnarrower, after=\stopnarrower]

    \startslokaed
    mano buddhir ahaṃ prāṇās tanmātrendriyajīvanam yaṃ
    dṛṣṭvā\linenote{dṛṣṭvā ] dṛṣṭva G\lohi{pc}{1}} vinivartante tam
    \linenote{tam ] tat} upāsyam upāsmahe
    \stopslokaed

    \startslokaedplain
    mano buddhir ahaṃ prāṇās tanmātrendriyajīvanam
    yaṃ dṛṣṭvā\variant{2c dṛṣṭvā ] dṛṣṭva} vinivartante tam \variant{2d
    tam ] tat} upāsyam upāsmahe (2)
    \stopslokaedplain
    \stoptext

Just in case it might help,

Pablo
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Re: Critical Editions?

[Thomas A. Schmitz via ntg-context]

> On 3. Jan 2022, at 10:43, hanneder--- via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
> 
> While the system is ingenious
> and a great relief (for we do not have to work with xml directly), I am also critical about these
> new demands, because they force us to use a fairly complex system for sometimes quite simple tasks.
> I am a Sanskritist, we do not have huge budgets or a large staff, so efficiency is an issue. 

Just for what it’s worth: I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for critical editions, for the following reasons:

1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense in 2022. This is not sustainable because no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it. You have to provide a digital edition as research data.

2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.

3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format: it is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2 (or 5 or 50) years. 

4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml. 

Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to process it. 

Thomas
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/3/22 10:43 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
> For the last two decades edmac and its further developments (now
> reledmac) have become the standard for critical editions. In my
> experience the basic requirements for typesetting critical editions
> were and are:
>
> - footnotes have to be formatted in paragraphs
> - multiple footnotes layers stacked below the critical text must be possible
> - automatic reference to linenumbers
> - or: manual references to verse numbers
> - language specific requirements (more complicated, see below)

Hi Jürgen,

not knowing which are the specific requirements for the language you
use, I think all of these may be achieved in ConTeXt LMTX.

> In the last years new requirements have been added:
>
> - some funding institutions in the academic world practically enforce
> online editions
> - data have to be made available in TEI xml format

Sorry for asking the basic question: what are online editions?

I mean, does uploading a PDF document count as an online edition?

As you may already know, ConTeXt can deal with XML sources (see
»Kritische Editionen mit TEI xml und ConTEXt« by Thomas Schmitz (2011)
[https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=72857]).

ConTeXt might also output XML. But this is much harder in practice. All
I know about it is what Hans wrote bout this.

> This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical
> edition in ConTeXt. I was hoping for something that can be kept
> simple.

Sorry, Jürgen, but from your statements it isn’t clear to me how ConTeXt
can fit in you projects: simpler and more readable input code?

> Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.

https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/sample-edition3.pdf contains line
numbers and margin notes. It can be done with ConTeXt.

https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/sample-edition2.pdf contains multiple
apparatus below critical texts. It might require \setupnote[location=text].

https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/sample-edition.pdf contains multiple
apparatus at the bottom of the page.

Just in case it might help,

Pablo
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Thomas,

You are deeply right ! But this is an issue in academic edition, not 
only because students read no more at length (specially in humanities), 
and by consequence, don't buy books, but among other reasons there is a 
general problem in publishing in academic fields, pointed by Jürgen 
Hanneder : even Universities libraries don't buy all items published by 
scholars in a specific field, but publishers themselves have leveled the 
academic criterium by commercial/economic considerations. Then, scholars 
have to gather financial funding with technical computing practice, 
which is another issue, and furthermore they have to find money in order 
to publish at expansive cost (see Brill prices, for example).

You are right about some academic tools, like those developed by Tuft 
University (like ancient greek thesaurus : http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/ 
or The Liddell-Scott-Jones online dictionary : 
http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=1), but for providing such tools 
as online digital work, there is two ways :

1. Academic courses on TEI XML given to advanced students in order to 
help them to produce well achieved projects (and provide manuals to do 
that; an example here in French  : 
http://www.bvh.univ-tours.fr/XML-TEI/ManuelWeb/Manuel_TEI_BVH.html)

2. Or, there are not so numerous nests like NTG-Context discussion list 
! How to help Jürgen (and scholars generally) who knock at the door 
looking for an analysis of their needs and questioning how ConTeXt may 
help them ?

a) They have to learn TEI XML, then

b) learn Context stylesheet !

Is it possible to gather a group of people interested by these topics ? 
Are we starting today ?

Le 04/01/2022 à 13:38, Thomas A. Schmitz via ntg-context a écrit :
>> On 3. Jan 2022, at 10:43, hanneder--- via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>>
>> While the system is ingenious
>> and a great relief (for we do not have to work with xml directly), I am also critical about these
>> new demands, because they force us to use a fairly complex system for sometimes quite simple tasks.
>> I am a Sanskritist, we do not have huge budgets or a large staff, so efficiency is an issue.
> Just for what it’s worth: I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for critical editions, for the following reasons:
>
> 1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense in 2022. This is not sustainable because no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it. You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
>
> 2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.
>
> 3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format: it is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2 (or 5 or 50) years.
>
> 4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml.
>
> Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to process it.
>
> Thomas
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Ancients&Moderns

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Thomas A. Schmitz via ntg-context]

I basically agree with everything you say, Jean-Pierre. Publishers are modern-day robber barons, and they have been stifling and exploiting scholars and scholarship for many years now. Behemoths such as Brill, de Gruyter, or Elsevier are bankrupting libraries in the entire world. However, we scholars also have some responsibility: if we could agree with each other, we could easily bypass the big publishers and have our critical editions (in a variety of formats) on our university’s websites. But we don’t do that: younger scholars need the validation of big name publications to build reputation and find a job, older scholars (myself included) are vain and/or old-fashioned and prefer a “real” book.

For your questions at the end: as you know, TEI is an insanely huge beast. Nobody will be willing and/or able to implement all of it in ConTeXt. What we need is actual use cases: scholars coming here and building up the expertise via the work they’re actually doing. Preferably in smaller installments so the developers and advanced users can slowly prepare bits and pieces of these stylesheets. No-one is going to look at a 400-page edition with all kinds of special needs in one go; we start with a chapter, a few pages, and we make our way. That’s what I expected when I wrote the wiki page on TEI xml: that it would slowly develop into something more comprehensive. Alas, it has been sitting there for 11 years… Every now and then, someone will appear on the mailing list and say: I need four apparatuses and six parallel translations and bells and whistles at every paragraph, but when you ask for real examples and specifications, they ride out into the sunset, never to be heard of again… So: I’m all for continuing in this direction, but we need some continuity. (And, not to brag, but still: I even managed to obtain some funding a couple of years ago to improve the bibliographical support in ConTeXt; if you have a real project, you can always allocate some funding for these things). As for learning TEI: I really think this is absolutely inevitable; even if new formats will be invented in the future (and TEI has serious shortcomings for many sorts of manuscript traditions), they will probably do so with TEI as a starting point.

I’m not working on a critical edition right now, but I have done some preparatory work and am willing to chip in!

All best

Thomas

> On 4. Jan 2022, at 18:54, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
> 
> Thomas,
> 
> You are deeply right ! But this is an issue in academic edition, not only because students read no more at length (specially in humanities), and by consequence, don't buy books, but among other reasons there is a general problem in publishing in academic fields, pointed by Jürgen Hanneder : even Universities libraries don't buy all items published by scholars in a specific field, but publishers themselves have leveled the academic criterium by commercial/economic considerations. Then, scholars have to gather financial funding with technical computing practice, which is another issue, and furthermore they have to find money in order to publish at expansive cost (see Brill prices, for example).
> 
> You are right about some academic tools, like those developed by Tuft University (like ancient greek thesaurus : http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/ or The Liddell-Scott-Jones online dictionary : http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=1), but for providing such tools as online digital work, there is two ways :
> 
> 1. Academic courses on TEI XML given to advanced students in order to help them to produce well achieved projects (and provide manuals to do that; an example here in French  : http://www.bvh.univ-tours.fr/XML-TEI/ManuelWeb/Manuel_TEI_BVH.html)
> 
> 2. Or, there are not so numerous nests like NTG-Context discussion list ! How to help Jürgen (and scholars generally) who knock at the door looking for an analysis of their needs and questioning how ConTeXt may help them ?
> 
> a) They have to learn TEI XML, then
> 
> b) learn Context stylesheet !
> 
> Is it possible to gather a group of people interested by these topics ? Are we starting today ?

___________________________________________________________________________________
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

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Thomas,
Even if I am an occasional user of CTX (mainly class courses for 
beginners and sophomore or by trying to write samples of what it is 
possible to achieve with it), and if I think I am aware about what can 
do CTX or what it cannot do, I didn't know that you wrote a  wiki page 
on TEI-XML with ConTeXt : even if I am interested by clever printing and 
issues with multi-languages texts topics, I ignored your precious piece 
of work. I was interested by the questions of Pr. Jürgen Hanneder, 
because even if I don't know a word of Sanskrit,  it is allways a true 
pain to begin with technical requisits when your real job is to think 
about the problematic meaning of ancients or less ancients texts. You 
precise clearly what I think about University mores, and J. Hanneder 
tell us his problems, which all of us know.
There are, for people who are working on Ancient Greek, Latin, Middle 
Age texts or Sanskrit (or whatever) some commercial tools which seem do 
the work : but technical efficiency asks allways money. I know of a 
company that works for a publisher, whose service is to code some Perl 
with text formatted in LaTeX and XML, in order to produce a display on 
screen and a printout on paper, until the page which presents the cover 
of the book and the summary of the contents, as well as its ISBN code, 
its price and the quantity of books in stock.

ConTeXt was at the very start a kind of a clever answer to the huge of 
technical abilities asked by LaTeX, and free of charge, numerous people 
interested by text editing have turned their eyes to ConTeXt.
I agree with you about reading and solving problems for a 400 pages text 
with 2 or 3 different languages and several levels of criticus apparatus 
: one needs to begin with the beginning or a kind of beginning with some 
issues given by a real and modest sample.

Best//JP

Le 04/01/2022 à 21:02, Thomas A. Schmitz via ntg-context a écrit :
> I basically agree with everything you say, Jean-Pierre. Publishers are modern-day robber barons, and they have been stifling and exploiting scholars and scholarship for many years now. Behemoths such as Brill, de Gruyter, or Elsevier are bankrupting libraries in the entire world. However, we scholars also have some responsibility: if we could agree with each other, we could easily bypass the big publishers and have our critical editions (in a variety of formats) on our university’s websites. But we don’t do that: younger scholars need the validation of big name publications to build reputation and find a job, older scholars (myself included) are vain and/or old-fashioned and prefer a “real” book.
>
> For your questions at the end: as you know, TEI is an insanely huge beast. Nobody will be willing and/or able to implement all of it in ConTeXt. What we need is actual use cases: scholars coming here and building up the expertise via the work they’re actually doing. Preferably in smaller installments so the developers and advanced users can slowly prepare bits and pieces of these stylesheets. No-one is going to look at a 400-page edition with all kinds of special needs in one go; we start with a chapter, a few pages, and we make our way. That’s what I expected when I wrote the wiki page on TEI xml: that it would slowly develop into something more comprehensive. Alas, it has been sitting there for 11 years… Every now and then, someone will appear on the mailing list and say: I need four apparatuses and six parallel translations and bells and whistles at every paragraph, but when you ask for real examples and specifications, they ride out into the sunset, never to be heard of again… So: I’m all for continuing in this direction, but we need some continuity. (And, not to brag, but still: I even managed to obtain some funding a couple of years ago to improve the bibliographical support in ConTeXt; if you have a real project, you can always allocate some funding for these things). As for learning TEI: I really think this is absolutely inevitable; even if new formats will be invented in the future (and TEI has serious shortcomings for many sorts of manuscript traditions), they will probably do so with TEI as a starting point.
>
> I’m not working on a critical edition right now, but I have done some preparatory work and am willing to chip in!
>
> All best
>
> Thomas
>
>> On 4. Jan 2022, at 18:54, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context<ntg-context@ntg.nl>  wrote:
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> You are deeply right ! But this is an issue in academic edition, not only because students read no more at length (specially in humanities), and by consequence, don't buy books, but among other reasons there is a general problem in publishing in academic fields, pointed by Jürgen Hanneder : even Universities libraries don't buy all items published by scholars in a specific field, but publishers themselves have leveled the academic criterium by commercial/economic considerations. Then, scholars have to gather financial funding with technical computing practice, which is another issue, and furthermore they have to find money in order to publish at expansive cost (see Brill prices, for example).
>>
>> You are right about some academic tools, like those developed by Tuft University (like ancient greek thesaurus :http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/  or The Liddell-Scott-Jones online dictionary :http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=1), but for providing such tools as online digital work, there is two ways :
>>
>> 1. Academic courses on TEI XML given to advanced students in order to help them to produce well achieved projects (and provide manuals to do that; an example here in French  :http://www.bvh.univ-tours.fr/XML-TEI/ManuelWeb/Manuel_TEI_BVH.html)
>>
>> 2. Or, there are not so numerous nests like NTG-Context discussion list ! How to help Jürgen (and scholars generally) who knock at the door looking for an analysis of their needs and questioning how ConTeXt may help them ?
>>
>> a) They have to learn TEI XML, then
>>
>> b) learn Context stylesheet !
>>
>> Is it possible to gather a group of people interested by these topics ? Are we starting today ?
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist :ntg-context@ntg.nl  /http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  :http://www.pragma-ade.nl  /http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  :https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     :http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Ancients&Moderns


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[luigi scarso via ntg-context]

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On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:00 AM Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context <
ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

> Thomas,
> Even if I am an occasional user of CTX (mainly class courses for beginners
> and sophomore or by trying to write samples of what it is possible to
> achieve with it), and if I think I am aware about what can do CTX or what
> it cannot do, I didn't know that you wrote a  wiki page on TEI-XML with
> ConTeXt : even if I am interested by clever printing and issues with
> multi-languages texts topics, I ignored your precious piece of work. I was
> interested by the questions of Pr. Jürgen Hanneder, because even if I don't
> know a word of Sanskrit,  it is allways a true pain to begin with technical
> requisits when your real job is to think about the problematic meaning of
> ancients or less ancients texts. You precise clearly what I think about
> University mores, and J. Hanneder tell us his problems, which all of us
> know.
> There are, for people who are working on Ancient Greek, Latin, Middle Age
> texts or Sanskrit (or whatever) some commercial tools which seem do the
> work : but technical efficiency asks allways money.  I know of a company
> that works for a publisher, whose service is to code some Perl with text
> formatted in LaTeX and XML, in order to produce a display on screen and a
> printout on paper, until the page which presents the cover of the book and
> the summary of the contents, as well as its ISBN code, its price and the
> quantity of books in stock.
>
quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

-- 
luigi

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Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

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Thank you Luigi !

"Quite old" doesn't matter. The date of the wiki page from Thomas is 
2010... And my own contribution to first steps with ConTeXt (in French 
and not for mathematics) through a Wikibook is no more valuable, full of 
errors and obsolete on many aspects 
(https://fr.wikibooks.org/wiki/ConTeXt) !

As Garulfo made a quite good job last year with his own contribution 
(https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context/tree/main/), 
it may be useful to produce a kind of "howto" with TEI-XML and LMTX-CTX.

I propose that at first time, any volunteer gather documentation on 
TEI-XML with ConTeXt to feed the wiki page on this topic, with in mind a 
real case of their choice (which may be a real academic case or an issue 
of their choice), not too tricky - or too far away of the common use, 
even if, by itself, the issues encountered in academic edition in 
humanities (or TEI-XML edition) are ... tricky and/or not very usual 
(because not it is not everybody who try to edit the work of Romanos the 
Melodist, or sanskrit poetry !).

As I saw that Thomas A. Schmitz was time to time an editor of Second 
Sophistic authors (among other things like French Renaissance poets), 
and few others Context users use to deal with CTX in order to publish 
ancients texts/poetry (like Pablo ...), I propose in a second time a 
general discussion on the topic, with in mind : What are the needs ? and 
what it is necessary to achieve at first and how ?

Thank you to share your views.

JP

Le 05/01/2022 à 09:43, luigi scarso a écrit :
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:00 AM Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context 
> <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>
>     Thomas,
>     Even if I am an occasional user of CTX (mainly class courses for
>     beginners and sophomore or by trying to write samples of what it
>     is possible to achieve with it), and if I think I am aware about
>     what can do CTX or what it cannot do, I didn't know that you wrote
>     a  wiki page on TEI-XML with ConTeXt : even if I am interested by
>     clever printing and issues with multi-languages texts topics, I
>     ignored your precious piece of work. I was interested by the
>     questions of Pr. Jürgen Hanneder, because even if I don't know a
>     word of Sanskrit,  it is allways a true pain to begin with
>     technical requisits when your real job is to think about the
>     problematic meaning of ancients or less ancients texts. You
>     precise clearly what I think about University mores, and J.
>     Hanneder tell us his problems, which all of us know.
>     There are, for people who are working on Ancient Greek, Latin,
>     Middle Age texts or Sanskrit (or whatever) some commercial tools
>     which seem do the work : but technical efficiency asks allways
>     money. I know of a company that works for a publisher, whose
>     service is to code some Perl with text formatted in LaTeX and XML,
>     in order to produce a display on screen and a printout on paper,
>     until the page which presents the cover of the book and the
>     summary of the contents, as well as its ISBN code, its price and
>     the quantity of books in stock.
>
> quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
> embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
> https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf
>
> -- 
> luigi

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients&Moderns
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

Dear critical edition experts,

the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and  
the other posts are really
answering my questions. Everything seems to be already there and if  
there were a Wiki on critical
editions I would perhaps have not even asked. Thanks a lot! If  
anything else is planned by the
experts and you need input from a Sanskrit editor, please let me know.

As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is  
needed, but since the topic is
being discussed -

> I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for  
> critical editions, for the following reasons:
> 1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense  
> in 2022. This is not sustainable because
> no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it.  
> You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
> 2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is  
> sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with  
> various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.

I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the first  
question is: Is a pdf more
sustainable, or an online edition (based on html etc.)? Time will  
tell, I guess. The same applies
to TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been  
edited by that method yet (in my
field), many projects are being worked on, but they tend not to be  
finished, when the project
ends. Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based  
say that the latter
significantly slows down the collation process.

At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone is  
talking about online
editions, data repositories etc., but the reality as I experience it  
is not up to these
expectations. One of our great paleographical online tools was almost  
lost, since there is no institutional
funding for updating those systems. Even finding a host for an online  
edition can be (and is in our
case) a nightmare. In short, my solution is: printed version as in the  
last centuries, possibly
additional online edition with a shorter life span and online  
publication of research data. This
sounds great, but actually we are talking mainly about the collation  
file, that is, the TeX-input
file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml by  
ekdosis, and that's it. The mss
scans are prohibited from online publication by German copy right (no  
Indian institution will grant
any rights).

Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new possibilities.  
I was part of an online
dictionary project (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and  
everything else, but after the
threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the  
dictionary), I have to finance
occasional updates from our normal budget (the DFG had decreed that no  
further funding for this
project was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes  
for a continuation of my
post - it might become quickly useless. As long as we have enough  
nerds who can and will do
the necessary work privately, we are safe.

> 3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format:  
> it is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2  
> (or 5 or 50) years.

Perhaps not, but I had much fun just checking out its possibilities  
and have started to use it as the default.

> 4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml.
> Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in  
> TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to  
> process it.

I am used to TeX-code, and so I'd rather stick to that and let ekdosis  
do the conversion,
if necessary. But in publication practice in my field, most of this is  
just for private
entertainment. Almost all publishers still expect a Word file, so the  
tool of choice
is pandoc to downgrade from TeX to docx. Sorry to end on this depressing note.
Best
Jürgen



---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
> [...]
> quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
> embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
> https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

Luigi,

if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.

I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group
Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).

Pablo
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Dear Jürgen,

Would you mind to test the MWE sample I've given 
(ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.tex) whith a little bit more 
information inside - in order to test furthermore ? You can change the 
text, even the \dorecurse option, in order to see what simply works and 
what does not for your purpose. There is a difficulty I've tried to 
solve some years ago : when you get two parrallel texts (for example an 
Ancient Greek text on odd page, and its translation on the even page) 
the solution seem to be in 'stream' to get a side by side text on 
different pages. If you try to do a two columns with separate texts - 
greek and its translation in my example - on the same page, it is 
working for the first page, but doesn't work for the following pages, 
that's why the 'stream' option seems a better way (see here : 
https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Columns#Examples_of_MkIV_streams).


Le 05/01/2022 à 12:52, hanneder--- via ntg-context a écrit :
>
> Dear critical edition experts,
>
> the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and 
> the other posts are really
> answering my questions. Everything seems to be already there and if 
> there were a Wiki on critical
> editions I would perhaps have not even asked. Thanks a lot! If 
> anything else is planned by the
> experts and you need input from a Sanskrit editor, please let me know.
>
> As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is 
> needed, but since the topic is
> being discussed -
>
>> I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for 
>> critical editions, for the following reasons:
>> 1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense 
>> in 2022. This is not sustainable because
>> no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it. 
>> You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
>> 2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is 
>> sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with 
>> various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.
>
> I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the first 
> question is: Is a pdf more
> sustainable, or an online edition (based on html etc.)? Time will 
> tell, I guess. The same applies
> to TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been 
> edited by that method yet (in my
> field), many projects are being worked on, but they tend not to be 
> finished, when the project
> ends. Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based 
> say that the latter
> significantly slows down the collation process.
>
> At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone is 
> talking about online
> editions, data repositories etc., but the reality as I experience it 
> is not up to these
> expectations. One of our great paleographical online tools was almost 
> lost, since there is no institutional
> funding for updating those systems. Even finding a host for an online 
> edition can be (and is in our
> case) a nightmare. In short, my solution is: printed version as in the 
> last centuries, possibly
> additional online edition with a shorter life span and online 
> publication of research data. This
> sounds great, but actually we are talking mainly about the collation 
> file, that is, the TeX-input
> file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml by 
> ekdosis, and that's it. The mss
> scans are prohibited from online publication by German copy right (no 
> Indian institution will grant
> any rights).
>
> Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new possibilities. 
> I was part of an online
> dictionary project (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and 
> everything else, but after the
> threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the 
> dictionary), I have to finance
> occasional updates from our normal budget (the DFG had decreed that no 
> further funding for this
> project was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes 
> for a continuation of my
> post - it might become quickly useless. As long as we have enough 
> nerds who can and will do
> the necessary work privately, we are safe.
>
>> 3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format: it 
>> is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2 (or 
>> 5 or 50) years.
>
> Perhaps not, but I had much fun just checking out its possibilities 
> and have started to use it as the default.
>
>> 4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml.
>> Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in TEI 
>> xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to process it.
>
> I am used to TeX-code, and so I'd rather stick to that and let ekdosis 
> do the conversion,
> if necessary. But in publication practice in my field, most of this is 
> just for private
> entertainment. Almost all publishers still expect a Word file, so the 
> tool of choice
> is pandoc to downgrade from TeX to docx. Sorry to end on this 
> depressing note.
> Best
> Jürgen
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstr.12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry 
> to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients&Moderns
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Pablo and Luigi,

Or simply add this paper to the bibliographical survey at the end of the 
wiki page made by Thomas ?

https://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml


Le 05/01/2022 à 12:54, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context a écrit :
> On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
>> [...]
>> quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
>> embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
>> https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf
> Luigi,
>
> if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
> that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.
>
> I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group
> Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).
>
> Pablo
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients&Moderns
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

I've found in NTG archives a discussion on XML analysis tool, which make 
me feel like a soldier who wants to fight after the battle ! ... 5 years 
ago....

See here : 
https://ntg-context.ntg.narkive.com/HAES9QLP/tei-to-context-xml-mappings

So, the question is (I don't want to start some troll, I am just 
considering the fact) : why the wiki documentation on the topic (TEI-XML 
with ConTeXt) is so thin ? I'm sure that we can feed this page ...

Le 05/01/2022 à 13:34, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context a écrit :
> Pablo and Luigi,
>
> Or simply add this paper to the bibliographical survey at the end of 
> the wiki page made by Thomas ?
>
> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml
>
>
> Le 05/01/2022 à 12:54, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context a écrit :
>> On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
>>> embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
>>> https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf
>> Luigi,
>>
>> if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
>> that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.
>>
>> I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group
>> Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).
>>
>> Pablo
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>>
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an 
>> entry to the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>>
>
-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients&Moderns
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: STIX2 font issues with freshly installed LMTX

[Heinrich Paeßens via ntg-context]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4465 bytes --]

Hi there

Issue solved by deleting the context-internal fonts and recurring on the system-wide installed fonts … never mind ;-)

<Untitled_Test -compressed.pdf> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/g31kwg14tcs5621/Untitled_Test%20-compressed.pdf?dl=0>

Happy New Year
Heinrich

> 
>> On 3 Jan 2022, at 21:46, Heinrich Paeßens <paessens@me.com <mailto:paessens@me.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi there
>>> 
>>> as a newcomer in ConTeXt I installed according to 
>>> 
>>> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installing_ConTeXt_LMTX_on_MacOS/ <https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installing_ConTeXt_LMTX_on_MacOS/>
>>> 
>>> and using TeXShop on macos as advised.
>>> 
>>> However, I like to use STIX2-Fonts for Text and Math and hence my MWE to test which fonts are going to be embedded (CLI pdffonts):
>>> 
>>> ————-
>>> \setupbodyfont[stixtwo]
>>> \starttext
>>> 
>>> Test ß 1lIjJuQ \% § \& ?! VERSAL-ẞ- \|> --- 1234567890 --- //
>>> 
>>> \placeformula[eqn:def-m]
>>> \startformula
>>>     m = \frac{m_0}{\sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}}}
>>> \stopformula
>>> \stoptext
>>> ————-
>>> 
>>> Unfortunately the compiler throws an error — why is there a check of STIX2-fonts versions, why is that important?
>>> 
>>> I checked and found 
>>> 
>>> /Users/hp/Library/Fonts/STIXTwoText-Regular.otf Version 2.12 b168
>>> /Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/stix2-otf/STIXTwoText-Regular.otf Version 2.11 b159
>>> 
>>> Could you please advise for a work around?
>>> 
>>> from the log:
>>> 
>>> ————-
>>> fonts           > otf loading > loading 'stixtwotext-regular.otf', hash 'stixtwotext-regular'
>>> otf reader      > unknown version '
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ' in file 'stixtwotext-regular.otf'
>>> fonts           > otf loading > loading done
>>> fonts           > otf loading > saving 'stixtwotext-regular.otf' in cache
>>> system          > lua > compiling '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tma' into '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tmd'
>>> system          > lua > dumping '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tma' into '/Users/hp/Library/context-osx-64/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache/context/5fe67e0bfe781ce0dde776fb1556f32e/fonts/otl/stixtwotext-regular.tmd' stripped
>>> fonts           > otf loading > loading, optimizing, packing and caching time 0.002
>>> lua error       > lua error on line 1 in file ./Untitled.tex:
>>> 
>>> registered function call [1129]: ...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:325: attempt to index a nil value (upvalue 'descriptions')
>>> stack traceback:
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:325: in local 'prepare_ligature'
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:770: in upvalue 'addfeature'
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/font-otc.lua:899: in local 'enhancer'
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-con.lmt:1269: in upvalue 'enhance'
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-con.lmt:1291: in field 'apply'
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:263: in field 'load'
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:602: in upvalue 'otftotfm'
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:630: in function <...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-otl.lmt:629>
>>> 	(...tail calls...)
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-def.lmt:378: in function <...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-def.lmt:366>
>>> 	(...tail calls...)
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-def.lmt:484: in field 'read'
>>> 	...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-ctx.lmt:1336: in function <...-64/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/font-ctx.lmt:1193>
>>> 	(...tail calls...)
>>>  1 >>  \setupbodyfont[stixtwo]
>>> ————-
>>> 
>>> Many thanks for your support.
>>> Kind regards
>>> 
>>> Heinrich Paeßens 
>>> Mobile +49 1512 123 9876 <tel:+4915121239876>
>>> Business Card <https://www.paessens.tel/img/heinrich-paessens_bc-2021-03-11_signed.pdf>
>>> 
>> 
> 


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 05.01.22 um 12:54 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context:
> On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
>> [...]
>> quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
>> embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
>> https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf
> 
> Luigi,
> 
> if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
> that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.
> 
> I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group
> Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).

I’m happy to receive articles for the journal!

And after all these years a talk/presentation on that matter would be 
great for the upcoming ConTeXt meeting!

Hraban (who is responsible for both)
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[luigi scarso via ntg-context]

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On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:54 PM Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <
ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

> On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
> > [...]
> > quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
> > embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
> > https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf
>
> Luigi,
>
> if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
> that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.
>

yeah, but unfortunately I have no time now.
It's for luatex with poppler -- now we have pplib --
and not lmtx, so not so useful I guess.
But you can try with
$>pdftotext -layout teitagged.pdf
and translate teitagged.txt  with google.

-- 
luigi

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Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

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Hi Luigi & Pablo,
I’ve thinking that Google translate may be provide some help. I’ll try it !

> Le 5 janv. 2022 à 17:13, luigi scarso via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> a écrit :
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:54 PM Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> wrote:
> On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
> > [...]
> > quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
> > embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
> > https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf <https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf>
> 
> Luigi,
> 
> if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
> that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.
> 
> yeah, but unfortunately I have no time now.  
> It's for luatex with poppler -- now we have pplib --
> and not lmtx, so not so useful I guess.
> But you can try with
> $>pdftotext -layout teitagged.pdf 
> and translate teitagged.txt  with google. 
> 
> -- 
> luigi
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

Dear Jean-Pierre,

I started preparing some examples, but first a quick question: Where  
can I find out the exact behaviour of a command option like aNote.

If you define a \cNote with \definelinenote[cNote][n=3] as in your  
example, then the input line

Cum defensionum \CNote{laboribus}{première note} senatoriisque

prints laboribus in the text and as the lemma! I cannot see where this is
defined (and explained).





----- Nachricht von Jean-Pierre Delange <adeimantos@free.fr> ---------
   Datum: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 13:29:20 +0100
     Von: Jean-Pierre Delange <adeimantos@free.fr>
Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
      An: ntg-context@ntg.nl
      Cc: hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de


> Dear Jürgen,
>
> Would you mind to test the MWE sample I've given  
> (ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.tex) whith a little bit more  
> information inside - in order to test furthermore ? You can change  
> the text, even the \dorecurse option, in order to see what simply  
> works and what does not for your purpose. There is a difficulty I've  
> tried to solve some years ago : when you get two parrallel texts  
> (for example an Ancient Greek text on odd page, and its translation  
> on the even page) the solution seem to be in 'stream' to get a side  
> by side text on different pages. If you try to do a two columns with  
> separate texts - greek and its translation in my example - on the  
> same page, it is working for the first page, but doesn't work for  
> the following pages, that's why the 'stream' option seems a better  
> way (see here :  
> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Columns#Examples_of_MkIV_streams).
>
>
> Le 05/01/2022 à 12:52, hanneder--- via ntg-context a écrit :
>>
>> Dear critical edition experts,
>>
>> the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and  
>> the other posts are really
>> answering my questions. Everything seems to be already there and if  
>> there were a Wiki on critical
>> editions I would perhaps have not even asked. Thanks a lot! If  
>> anything else is planned by the
>> experts and you need input from a Sanskrit editor, please let me know.
>>
>> As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is  
>> needed, but since the topic is
>> being discussed -
>>
>>> I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for  
>>> critical editions, for the following reasons:
>>> 1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no  
>>> sense in 2022. This is not sustainable because
>>> no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on  
>>> it. You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
>>> 2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is  
>>> sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with  
>>> various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.
>>
>> I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the  
>> first question is: Is a pdf more
>> sustainable, or an online edition (based on html etc.)? Time will  
>> tell, I guess. The same applies
>> to TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been  
>> edited by that method yet (in my
>> field), many projects are being worked on, but they tend not to be  
>> finished, when the project
>> ends. Some of the people actually working with both TeX and  
>> XML-based say that the latter
>> significantly slows down the collation process.
>>
>> At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone  
>> is talking about online
>> editions, data repositories etc., but the reality as I experience  
>> it is not up to these
>> expectations. One of our great paleographical online tools was  
>> almost lost, since there is no institutional
>> funding for updating those systems. Even finding a host for an  
>> online edition can be (and is in our
>> case) a nightmare. In short, my solution is: printed version as in  
>> the last centuries, possibly
>> additional online edition with a shorter life span and online  
>> publication of research data. This
>> sounds great, but actually we are talking mainly about the  
>> collation file, that is, the TeX-input
>> file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml by  
>> ekdosis, and that's it. The mss
>> scans are prohibited from online publication by German copy right  
>> (no Indian institution will grant
>> any rights).
>>
>> Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new  
>> possibilities. I was part of an online
>> dictionary project (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and  
>> everything else, but after the
>> threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the  
>> dictionary), I have to finance
>> occasional updates from our normal budget (the DFG had decreed that  
>> no further funding for this
>> project was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great  
>> hopes for a continuation of my
>> post - it might become quickly useless. As long as we have enough  
>> nerds who can and will do
>> the necessary work privately, we are safe.
>>
>>> 3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format:  
>>> it is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in  
>>> 2 (or 5 or 50) years.
>>
>> Perhaps not, but I had much fun just checking out its possibilities  
>> and have started to use it as the default.
>>
>>> 4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml.
>>> Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in  
>>> TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to  
>>> process it.
>>
>> I am used to TeX-code, and so I'd rather stick to that and let  
>> ekdosis do the conversion,
>> if necessary. But in publication practice in my field, most of this  
>> is just for private
>> entertainment. Almost all publishers still expect a Word file, so  
>> the tool of choice
>> is pandoc to downgrade from TeX to docx. Sorry to end on this  
>> depressing note.
>> Best
>> Jürgen
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
>> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
>> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
>> Deutschhausstr.12
>> 35032 Marburg
>> Germany
>> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
>> hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the  
>> Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /  
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> -- 
> Jean-Pierre Delange
> Agrégé de philosophie
> Ancients&Moderns
> "Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the  
> pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton


----- Ende der Nachricht von Jean-Pierre Delange <adeimantos@free.fr> -----



---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

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The starting point of the discussion on reledmac and other related points, has begun on May 13, 2016. See here about the way to get a ConTeXt equivalent to a LaTeX encoding : https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context@ntg.nl/msg81793.html <https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context@ntg.nl/msg81793.html> (I gave the LaTeX code).

For the question asked by Jürgen, as far as I know, you have to deal (and play) with setupnote, definenote AND setupline commands. Discussion is here : https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=ntg-context@ntg.nl&q=subject:%22Re%5C%3A+%5C%5BNTG%5C-context%5C%5D+TwoColumns+in+two+different+languages%2C+with+alternate+text+on+even+and+odd+page.%22&o=newest&f=1

> Le 5 janv. 2022 à 18:28, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> a écrit :
> 
> Hi Luigi & Pablo,
> I’ve thinking that Google translate may be provide some help. I’ll try it !
> 
>> Le 5 janv. 2022 à 17:13, luigi scarso via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:54 PM Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> wrote:
>> On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
>> > [...]
>> > quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
>> > embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
>> > https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf <https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf>
>> 
>> Luigi,
>> 
>> if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
>> that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.
>> 
>> yeah, but unfortunately I have no time now.  
>> It's for luatex with poppler -- now we have pplib --
>> and not lmtx, so not so useful I guess.
>> But you can try with
>> $>pdftotext -layout teitagged.pdf 
>> and translate teitagged.txt  with google. 
>> 
>> -- 
>> luigi
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context <http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context>
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl <http://www.pragma-ade.nl/> / http://context.aanhet.net <http://context.aanhet.net/>
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ <https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/>
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net <http://contextgarden.net/>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context]

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On Wed, 5 Jan 2022, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

> Dear Jean-Pierre,
> 
> I started preparing some examples, but first a quick question: Where  
> can I find out the exact behaviour of a command option like aNote.
> 
> If you define a \cNote with \definelinenote[cNote][n=3] as in your  
> example, then the input line
> 
> Cum defensionum \CNote{laboribus}{première note} senatoriisque
> 
> prints laboribus in the text and as the lemma! I cannot see where this is
> defined (and explained).

To get an overview of linenotes, see:

https://www.contextgarden.net/Command/_linenote
https://www.contextgarden.net/Command/setuplinenote

Aditya

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

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Hi Pablo !

Herewith the Luigi Scarso file translated into English ...

Le 05/01/2022 à 12:54, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context a écrit :
> On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
>> [...]
>> quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
>> embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
>> https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf
> Luigi,
>
> if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
> that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.
>
> I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group
> Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).
>
> Pablo
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients&Moderns
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/5/22 6:39 PM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
> Dear Jean-Pierre,
>
> I started preparing some examples, but first a quick question: Where
> can I find out the exact behaviour of a command option like aNote.
>
> If you define a \cNote with \definelinenote[cNote][n=3] as in your
> example, then the input line
>
> Cum defensionum \CNote{laboribus}{première note} senatoriisque
>
> prints laboribus in the text and as the lemma! I cannot see where this is
> defined (and explained).

Hi Jürgen,

it is a simple command definition:

  \def\CNote#1#2{#1\cNote{#1] #2}}

Just in case it might not be clear, "\CNote{laboribus}{première note}"
would be the same as typing "laboribus\cNote{laboribus] première note}".

BTW, for humans "a" = "A". For a computer, "a" ≠ "A". So "\CNote" is a
different command from "\cNote". For a basic sample is fine, but for
real documents creating commands that are too similar for humans is the
best way to make mistakes.

My apologies if the explanations are obvious to you.

I hope this might help,

Pablo
___________________________________________________________________________________
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/5/22 1:34 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:
> Pablo and Luigi,
>
> Or simply add this paper to the bibliographical survey at the end of the
> wiki page made by Thomas ?
>
> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml

Jean-Pierre,

excellent idea!

Pablo
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/5/22 12:52 PM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
>
> Dear critical edition experts,
>
> the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and
>  the other posts are really answering my questions. Everything seems
> to be already there and if there were a Wiki on critical editions I
> would perhaps have not even asked.

The wiki is a cooperative effort. Nothing prevents you from starting a
new article on critical editions at the ConTeXt Garden
(https://wiki.contextgarden.net).

If you put some samples, other users may extend you article (again, this
is a cooperative effort).

> As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is
> needed, but since the topic is being discussed -

This should be no big surprise: Knuth developed TeX as a typesetting
programming language, not mainly as an input format.

Once you get used to it, TeX (or ConTeXt) may be easier for you as input
format. But it makes sense that as input format, ConTeXt cannot be
future–proof in that way, if it is in development.

>> I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for
>> critical editions, for the following reasons:
>> 1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense
>> in 2022. This is not sustainable because
>> no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it.
>> You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
>> 2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is
>> sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with
>> various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.
>
> I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the
> first question is: Is a pdf more sustainable, or an online edition
> (based on html etc.)? Time will tell, I guess. The same applies to
> TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been
> edited by that method yet (in my field), many projects are being
> worked on, but they tend not to be finished, when the project ends.
> Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based say
> that the latter significantly slows down the collation process.

Research (Maryanne Wolf) shows that people read way better on paper. We
tend to forget way faster what we read on e–ink screens. Just in case
anyone is interested

PDF is way easier to maintain. Once you generate it, this is all to it.
XML sources need more work to get and display data (oversimplifying the
issue).

In my experience, having XML sources requires learning how to generate
PDF output from them (and how to display them online). I use Markdown
and if I had to share my document, this would be way easier than to
share ConTeXt source files containing text. That way, I could focus on
the typesetting and the team could focus on the pure content (text or
images).

TEI may be a pain to learn and to write, but it makes sense to use it as
input format. Or the alternative would be a light–weight markup
language, not TeX.

> At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone
> is talking about online editions, data repositories etc., but the
> reality as I experience it is not up to these expectations. One of
> our great paleographical online tools was almost lost, since there is
> no institutional funding for updating those systems. Even finding a
> host for an online edition can be (and is in our case) a nightmare.

Don’t universites host online archives for research projects?

> In short, my solution is: printed version as in the last centuries,
> possibly additional online edition with a shorter life span and
> online publication of research data. This sounds great, but actually
> we are talking mainly about the collation file, that is, the
> TeX-input file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml
> by ekdosis, and that's it. The mss scans are prohibited from online
> publication by German copyright (no Indian institution will grant
> any rights).

I’m interested in the copyright issue.

All I knew about German copyright law is that it protects critical
editions (I mean, not the apparatus, but the text itself.)

What is actually protected by German copyright in manuscript scans? The
photograph itself? In that case, for manuscripts and works that are in
the public domain, who is supposed to be the copyright holder?

> Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new
> possibilities. I was part of an online dictionary project
> (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and everything else, but
> after the threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the
> dictionary), I have to finance occasional updates from our normal
> budget (the DFG had decreed that no further funding for this project
> was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes for a
> continuation of my post - it might become quickly useless. As long
> as we have enough nerds who can and will do the necessary work
> privately, we are safe.

Maybe the wrong approach is that studies in humanities don’t need a
strong background in computer science (programming).

In that case, it is really hard to use computers to achieve rich and
complex goals.

>> 4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml.
>> Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in
>> TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to
>> process it.
>
> I am used to TeX-code, and so I'd rather stick to that and let
> ekdosis do the conversion, if necessary.

A light–weight markup language for critical editions would be something
to consider, in that case. (But it is something to be developed, if it
makes sense at all.)

> But in publication practice in my field, most of this is just for
> private entertainment. Almost all publishers still expect a Word
> file, so the tool of choice is pandoc to downgrade from TeX to docx.
> Sorry to end on this depressing note.

Word documents for critical editions? In that case, publishers will have
to typeset the book themselves, won’t they?

Many thanks for your insightful comments,

Pablo
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Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Le 06/01/2022 à 17:57, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context a écrit :
> On 1/5/22 12:52 PM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
>> Dear critical edition experts,
>>
>> the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and
>>   the other posts are really answering my questions. Everything seems
>> to be already there and if there were a Wiki on critical editions I
>> would perhaps have not even asked.
> The wiki is a cooperative effort. Nothing prevents you from starting a
> new article on critical editions at the ConTeXt Garden
> (https://wiki.contextgarden.net).
>
> If you put some samples, other users may extend you article (again, this
> is a cooperative effort).
>
>> As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is
>> needed, but since the topic is being discussed -
> This should be no big surprise: Knuth developed TeX as a typesetting
> programming language, not mainly as an input format.
>
> Once you get used to it, TeX (or ConTeXt) may be easier for you as input
> format. But it makes sense that as input format, ConTeXt cannot be
> future–proof in that way, if it is in development.
>
>>> I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for
>>> critical editions, for the following reasons:
>>> 1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense
>>> in 2022. This is not sustainable because
>>> no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it.
>>> You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
>>> 2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is
>>> sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with
>>> various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.
>> I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the
>> first question is: Is a pdf more sustainable, or an online edition
>> (based on html etc.)? Time will tell, I guess. The same applies to
>> TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been
>> edited by that method yet (in my field), many projects are being
>> worked on, but they tend not to be finished, when the project ends.
>> Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based say
>> that the latter significantly slows down the collation process.
> Research (Maryanne Wolf) shows that people read way better on paper. We
> tend to forget way faster what we read on e–ink screens. Just in case
> anyone is interested
>
> PDF is way easier to maintain. Once you generate it, this is all to it.
> XML sources need more work to get and display data (oversimplifying the
> issue).
>
> In my experience, having XML sources requires learning how to generate
> PDF output from them (and how to display them online). I use Markdown
> and if I had to share my document, this would be way easier than to
> share ConTeXt source files containing text. That way, I could focus on
> the typesetting and the team could focus on the pure content (text or
> images).
>
> TEI may be a pain to learn and to write, but it makes sense to use it as
> input format. Or the alternative would be a light–weight markup
> language, not TeX.
>
>> At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone
>> is talking about online editions, data repositories etc., but the
>> reality as I experience it is not up to these expectations. One of
>> our great paleographical online tools was almost lost, since there is
>> no institutional funding for updating those systems. Even finding a
>> host for an online edition can be (and is in our case) a nightmare.
> Don’t universites host online archives for research projects?
>
>> In short, my solution is: printed version as in the last centuries,
>> possibly additional online edition with a shorter life span and
>> online publication of research data. This sounds great, but actually
>> we are talking mainly about the collation file, that is, the
>> TeX-input file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml
>> by ekdosis, and that's it. The mss scans are prohibited from online
>> publication by German copyright (no Indian institution will grant
>> any rights).
> I’m interested in the copyright issue.
>
> All I knew about German copyright law is that it protects critical
> editions (I mean, not the apparatus, but the text itself.)
>
> What is actually protected by German copyright in manuscript scans? The
> photograph itself? In that case, for manuscripts and works that are in
> the public domain, who is supposed to be the copyright holder?
>
>> Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new
>> possibilities. I was part of an online dictionary project
>> (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and everything else, but
>> after the threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the
>> dictionary), I have to finance occasional updates from our normal
>> budget (the DFG had decreed that no further funding for this project
>> was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes for a
>> continuation of my post - it might become quickly useless. As long
>> as we have enough nerds who can and will do the necessary work
>> privately, we are safe.
> Maybe the wrong approach is that studies in humanities don’t need a
> strong background in computer science (programming).
>
> In that case, it is really hard to use computers to achieve rich and
> complex goals.
>
>>> 4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml.
>>> Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in
>>> TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to
>>> process it.
>> I am used to TeX-code, and so I'd rather stick to that and let
>> ekdosis do the conversion, if necessary.
> A light–weight markup language for critical editions would be something
> to consider, in that case. (But it is something to be developed, if it
> makes sense at all.)
>
>> But in publication practice in my field, most of this is just for
>> private entertainment. Almost all publishers still expect a Word
>> file, so the tool of choice is pandoc to downgrade from TeX to docx.
>> Sorry to end on this depressing note.
> Word documents for critical editions? In that case, publishers will have
> to typeset the book themselves, won’t they?

As far as I know, some publishers in Humanities in France (e.g. 
Librairie Philosophique Vrin and many others, like Dunod) prefer that 
editor/authors provide a Word processing text (even with a special style 
sheet) than a PDF ready to print ("bon à tirer"). The "Librairie 
philosophique Vrin" has his own style sheet which give a PDF output, but 
Dunod publisher has (for example) build since 15 years an external 
working flow on a distant (and private server) : the Word text is 
revised with Word tags (title, chapter, etc.) and send to a server which 
automatically apply some XML, LateX and Perl procedures. Then the output 
is in PDF (ready to print) and HTML formats. The typessetting is made by 
publisher.

But, publishing in Humanities is not, AMHO, to print a simple essay with 
6 or 12 chapters and a TOC with a backmatter bibliography. Therefore, 
even if this kind of book is rare (e.g. a text in 3 languages : Greek, 
latin, and a translation in modern language on the even page, with 
footnotes, and a commentary on the odd page, or some essay on the 
different levels of text written by Montaigne since the first edition of 
"Les essais", with the different states of text on the even page, or in 
a column, and the commentary in a parallell column or page) may be 
tricky. Pablo is right : scholars in some research fields have to learn 
computing. That's why there is sometimes a proposal to learn some 
technical language (like Tei-XML here : 
https://cesr.cnrs.fr/actualites/actualites-scientifiques/stage-initiation-%C3%A0-lencodage-xml-tei-des-textes-patrimoniaux 
and here 
http://www.bvh.univ-tours.fr/actualites/2011.01_stage_tei_CESR.pdf).

The question of funding computing tools is an issue : it is true in a 
private situation when you want to write a manuscript with versioning 
(you have to know how it works), but it is more relevant within an 
academic field of research : who wants to buy days of education for 
scholars for their learning in computing or for XML Oxygen and other tools ?

As allways, needs create tools : but it is possible in a cooperative 
spirit, as Pablo truely point it out.

> Many thanks for your insightful comments,
>
> Pablo
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients&Moderns
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/6/2022 6:47 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

> The question of funding computing tools is an issue : it is true in a 
> private situation when you want to write a manuscript with versioning 
> (you have to know how it works), but it is more relevant within an 
> academic field of research : who wants to buy days of education for 
> scholars for their learning in computing or for XML Oxygen and other 
> tools ?
there was a time when publishers did typesetting and printing themselves 
in which case they might have some interest in tools but afaik that time 
is long gone (and i admit that i never met a publisher where investing 
in know how and technology was part of the corporate identity (there 
were some but by the time context showed up most large publishers 
started outsourcing to far-far-away and those interested in technologies 
left), at least not one that invest beyond a specific product and even 
then falling back on tools like tex is a last resort ... do publisheres 
even have departments that do some kind of resaearch at all? i admire 
those working at publishers who were willing to take the risk (we dealt 
with some) but mergers, buyouts by crooky strip-down-and-lay-off 
investors etc doesn't help dedicated employees long term

using tools like tex really depends on individuals who know what they're 
dealing with and can make convincing use case examples (and then explain 
thet investing time / money beforehand pays back a lot long term (which 
is possible in non publishing contexts but publishers go for short term 
which means pay per page (every time) instead of pay per project (and 
some maintanance)

when i look at some publications i even wonder if the big ones even care 
about quality at all (folks at the newspaper that we read here figured 
out that using grayish fonts is best, that hyphenation doesn't need 
checking, that inter character spacing and extrems expansion looks 
great, or: soon we migh ditch it because it became hard to read).

so ... i suppose authors are pretty much on their own and maybe not even 
seen as (human) assets any longer by publishers ... but then, i never 
(will) publish, so who knows ...

and from the perspective of context (and development) it is therefore 
users (who of course can represent an organization) is what we focus on

Hans

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Re: Critical Editions?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 06.01.22 um 19:41 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
> there was a time when publishers did typesetting and printing themselves 
> in which case they might have some interest in tools but afaik that time 
> is long gone (and i admit that i never met a publisher where investing 
> in know how and technology was part of the corporate identity (there 
> were some but by the time context showed up most large publishers 
> started outsourcing to far-far-away and those interested in technologies 
> left), at least not one that invest beyond a specific product and even 
> then falling back on tools like tex is a last resort ...

I know one company in Leipzig that works for big publishers 
(www.le-tex.de). I talked to them a few years ago at a book fair and 
applied twice for their job offers (but they want people to work at 
their office).

For scientific publications they’re using a XML-to-LaTeX workflow, 
otherwise Word-based (->XML->LaTeX or ->InDesign). Of course they accept 
all kind of data; it looks like they’re really good in automated workflows.

But I guess there are strong competitors in the far east...

Hraban
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Re: Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar.
As I indicated, there are mostly no  budgets for book typesetting in  
Indology and
I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other  
words, the authors
have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc.  
Our publications
series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with  
LaTeX, as are my publications
with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in  
Germany. There is no institution
offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no  
commercial interest in it and I
think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts  
are used instead of transliteration).

Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use  
TeX internally, which is convenient,
but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation,  
frustrating in a way, but it also
gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own  
dilettantic designs).

Jürgen

> I know one company in Leipzig that works for big publishers  
> (www.le-tex.de). I talked to them a few years ago at a book fair and  
> applied twice for their job offers (but they want people to work at  
> their office).
>
> For scientific publications they’re using a XML-to-LaTeX workflow,  
> otherwise Word-based (->XML->LaTeX or ->InDesign). Of course they  
> accept all kind of data; it looks like they’re really good in  
> automated workflows.
>
> But I guess there are strong competitors in the far east...
>
> Hraban
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an  
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /  
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________


----- Ende der Nachricht von Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context  
<ntg-context@ntg.nl> -----



---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

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Re: Critical Editions?

[luigi scarso via ntg-context]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1314 bytes --]

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:25 PM hanneder--- via ntg-context <
ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

>
> Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar.
> As I indicated, there are mostly no  budgets for book typesetting in
> Indology and
> I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other
> words, the authors
> have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc.
> Our publications
> series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with
> LaTeX, as are my publications
> with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in
> Germany. There is no institution
> offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no
> commercial interest in it and I
> think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts
> are used instead of transliteration).
>
> Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use
> TeX internally, which is convenient,
> but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation,
> frustrating in a way, but it also
> gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own
> dilettantic designs).
>
> Jürgen
>

perhaps this can be interesting
https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/
(seen them at a context meeting years ago)


-- 
luigi

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Re: Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/7/2022 6:25 PM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
> 
> Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar.
> As I indicated, there are mostly no  budgets for book typesetting in 
> Indology and
> I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other words, 
> the authors
> have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc. 
> Our publications
> series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with LaTeX, 
> as are my publications
> with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in 
> Germany. There is no institution
> offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no 
> commercial interest in it and I
> think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts are 
> used instead of transliteration).

there was a time that publishers had some pride in offering low volume 
publications and paid for that by large volume succes stories ... but 
those were real publishers (persons, not companies)

> Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use TeX 
> internally, which is convenient,
> but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation, 
> frustrating in a way, but it also
> gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own 
> dilettantic designs).
that brings me to the question:

   what do those who are independent from publishers really
   want in a typeseting system .. not bound by what a specific
   publisher with no real interest but profit demands

i'm often puzzled by the fact that in spite of what technology (and 
thereby tex) makes possible is not used to its full extend .. (my 
favourite exmaple: why go along the troublesome accessibility path 
instead of providing plenty variants that suit specific users and 
publish the sources so that those interested in it can do it ... 
interestingly easy audio inclusion was dropped from pdf instead of 
adding means to attach that to a stretch of text) .. i think publishers 
were never really interested in those things (no reserch lab anyway)

so ... what features would make *you* happy if you didn't have to take 
publishing (which doesn't happen) and tradition (imposed by those who 
don't publish your work anyway) into account but could produce the best 
for your reader

Hans

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Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4289 bytes --]

Luigi,

Thank you for the link.

Unfortunately this site mentions some typesetting work for research on 
Stoicism (and other stuff) and on uploading the manuscripts of the 
English philosopher John Locke, but apparently some links are dead and 
the maintenance of the site seems to have stopped since ... 2011 . But 
maybe Hans knows these people?

see here : https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/projects.php?lang=en#h3

These fellows seem to work for Brepols and Oxford >University Press 
asswell as Utrecht University.

Read this curious assertion (curious because the text mention an 
invisible project) :

"Stoa Project

The Stoa Project, which is carried out by the history working group of 
the Department of philosophy <http://www.phil.uu.nl/> of Utrecht 
University, will lead to a renewed publication of text fragments of the 
early Stoa, represented by philosophers such as Zeno, Chrysippus and 
Cleanthes. Very little of our knowledge about the Stoa comes from 
primary sources; most of what we know about it has been derived from 
secondary sources. Our most important sources are other philosophers and 
doxographers, who have cited and paraphrased the learnings of the early 
Stoa. Through modern research on doxographic traditions and 
republications of many of the sources, the current publication of this 
material, J. von Arnim’s Stoicorum Veterum Fragmenta (1903-1924) has 
become outdated.

TAT Zetwerk’s role in this project is managing the FileMaker database 
that contains Stoic text fragments (mainly in ancient Greek) accompanied 
by text critical and historic-philosophical notes, an English 
translation, and meta data. As soon as the text parts in the database 
have reached their final form, we convert them into a TeX-format, so 
that we can generate a mirrored critical edition. We can then create 
indices and concordances by using the meta data from the database. 
Currently, the Stoa Project does not have its own website."

If I understand, TAT Zetwerk manage Apple FileMaker database of pieces 
of Stoicorum Fragmenta texts (von Arnim edition) in order to convert 
them in TeX form (with critical apparatus...). But they give no sample.


Le 07/01/2022 à 18:35, luigi scarso via ntg-context a écrit :
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:25 PM hanneder--- via ntg-context 
> <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>
>
>     Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar.
>     As I indicated, there are mostly no  budgets for book typesetting in
>     Indology and
>     I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other
>     words, the authors
>     have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc.
>     Our publications
>     series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with
>     LaTeX, as are my publications
>     with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in
>     Germany. There is no institution
>     offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no
>     commercial interest in it and I
>     think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts
>     are used instead of transliteration).
>
>     Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use
>     TeX internally, which is convenient,
>     but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation,
>     frustrating in a way, but it also
>     gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own
>     dilettantic designs).
>
>     Jürgen
>
>
> perhaps this can be interesting
> https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/
> (seen them at a context meeting years ago)
>
> -- 
> luigi
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist :ntg-context@ntg.nl  /http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  :http://www.pragma-ade.nl  /http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  :https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     :http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients&Moderns
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/8/2022 12:40 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:
> Luigi,
> 
> Thank you for the link.
> 
> Unfortunately this site mentions some typesetting work for research on 
> Stoicism (and other stuff) and on uploading the manuscripts of the 
> English philosopher John Locke, but apparently some links are dead and 
> the maintenance of the site seems to have stopped since ... 2011 . But 
> maybe Hans knows these people?
It's a small dutch typesetting company doing work for afaik publishere 
in the the humanities and they are speciaized in non latin scripts 
(read: whatever can't be outsourced to large scale service 
far-far-away). They use their own plain tex macros (understandable and 
possible because no publishere can force to use a macro package for 
tricky typesetting).

They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari 
code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized. Over the 
years we improved that (this also relates to better specs showing up and 
more fonts; the reference for rendering is microsoft uniscribe). We also 
stepwise improved the more complex bits and pieces of handling 
discretionaries with extensive (and complex) latin fonts (that they use 
and can test) as well as some fuzzy arabic fonts. it is the main reason 
why we have the generic font loader (i.e. most of the context fontloader 
works with plain (as we ship it) including some of the fancy stuff; 
latex used that code too but with patches and layers around it and maybe 
not all features but it switched to using libraries).

So, indeed I know these (two) people,

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

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Thanks Hans for this detailed informations !


Le 08/01/2022 à 14:03, Hans Hagen via ntg-context a écrit :
> On 1/8/2022 12:40 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:
>> Luigi,
>>
>> Thank you for the link.
>>
>> Unfortunately this site mentions some typesetting work for research 
>> on Stoicism (and other stuff) and on uploading the manuscripts of the 
>> English philosopher John Locke, but apparently some links are dead 
>> and the maintenance of the site seems to have stopped since ... 2011 
>> . But maybe Hans knows these people?
> It's a small dutch typesetting company doing work for afaik publishere 
> in the the humanities and they are speciaized in non latin scripts 
> (read: whatever can't be outsourced to large scale service 
> far-far-away). They use their own plain tex macros (understandable and 
> possible because no publishere can force to use a macro package for 
> tricky typesetting).
>
> They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari 
> code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized. Over the 
> years we improved that (this also relates to better specs showing up 
> and more fonts; the reference for rendering is microsoft uniscribe). 
> We also stepwise improved the more complex bits and pieces of handling 
> discretionaries with extensive (and complex) latin fonts (that they 
> use and can test) as well as some fuzzy arabic fonts. it is the main 
> reason why we have the generic font loader (i.e. most of the context 
> fontloader works with plain (as we ship it) including some of the 
> fancy stuff; latex used that code too but with patches and layers 
> around it and maybe not all features but it switched to using libraries).
>
> So, indeed I know these (two) people,
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry 
> to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[BPJ via ntg-context]

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Den lör 8 jan. 2022 12:44Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context <
ntg-context@ntg.nl> skrev:

> Luigi,
>
> Thank you for the link.
>
> Unfortunately this site mentions some typesetting work for research on
> Stoicism (and other stuff) and on uploading the manuscripts of the English
> philosopher John Locke, but apparently some links are dead and the
> maintenance of the site seems to have stopped since ... 2011 .
>
Maybe that is why they talk about "special TeX fonts"? Surely today they
would use an engine which can use conventional Unicode fonts directly?


But maybe Hans knows these people?
>
> see here : https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/projects.php?lang=en#h3
>
> These fellows seem to work for Brepols and Oxford >University Press
> asswell as Utrecht University.
>
> Read this curious assertion (curious because the text mention an invisible
> project) :
> "Stoa Project
>
> The Stoa Project, which is carried out by the history working group of the Department
> of philosophy <http://www.phil.uu.nl/> of Utrecht University, will lead
> to a renewed publication of text fragments of the early Stoa, represented
> by philosophers such as Zeno, Chrysippus and Cleanthes. Very little of our
> knowledge about the Stoa comes from primary sources; most of what we know
> about it has been derived from secondary sources. Our most important
> sources are other philosophers and doxographers, who have cited and
> paraphrased the learnings of the early Stoa. Through modern research on
> doxographic traditions and republications of many of the sources, the
> current publication of this material, J. von Arnim’s Stoicorum Veterum
> Fragmenta (1903-1924) has become outdated.
>
> TAT Zetwerk’s role in this project is managing the FileMaker database that
> contains Stoic text fragments (mainly in ancient Greek) accompanied by text
> critical and historic-philosophical notes, an English translation, and meta
> data. As soon as the text parts in the database have reached their final
> form, we convert them into a TeX-format, so that we can generate a mirrored
> critical edition. We can then create indices and concordances by using the
> meta data from the database. Currently, the Stoa Project does not have its
> own website."
> If I understand, TAT Zetwerk manage Apple FileMaker database of pieces of
> Stoicorum Fragmenta texts (von Arnim edition) in order to convert them in
> TeX form (with critical apparatus...). But they give no sample.
>
>
> Le 07/01/2022 à 18:35, luigi scarso via ntg-context a écrit :
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:25 PM hanneder--- via ntg-context <
> ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>
>>
>> Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar.
>> As I indicated, there are mostly no  budgets for book typesetting in
>> Indology and
>> I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other
>> words, the authors
>> have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc.
>> Our publications
>> series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with
>> LaTeX, as are my publications
>> with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in
>> Germany. There is no institution
>> offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no
>> commercial interest in it and I
>> think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts
>> are used instead of transliteration).
>>
>> Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use
>> TeX internally, which is convenient,
>> but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation,
>> frustrating in a way, but it also
>> gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own
>> dilettantic designs).
>>
>> Jürgen
>>
>
> perhaps this can be interesting
> https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/
> (seen them at a context meeting years ago)
>
>
> --
> luigi
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> --
> Jean-Pierre Delange
> Agrégé de philosophie
> Ancients&Moderns
> "Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas" - Lord Acton
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:

> They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the  
> devanagari code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.

Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that
user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited).


Dear Hans,

two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they  
concern hyphenation and
font.

1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a  
few lines. The concept of
    "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.

    What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language  
Sanskrit that hyphenates
    after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i,  
ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
    last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in  
the original script). Of
    course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally,  
so we need to be able to insert
    a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.

    I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled  
hyphenation also arises when a variant
    is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance  
in critical editions.

2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse.  
(This is more a lamentation, not
    much one can do about it, I guess).

    When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as  
a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly,
    but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime  
Sanskritists had to search for new
    fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts  
(I spent a lot of time with
    OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether  
an otf font has the underdot
    characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial  
fonts, I found only one
    "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like  
Minion, for instance, but the
    latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.

    Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that  
still work, but many entries in
    the TeX Font Catalogue do not!


Jürgen




---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Robert via ntg-context]

Dear list,

I am currently working on a critical edition as well, and follow the discussion with interest. For the time being, I prefer Latex over Context for this project.

In addition to Jürgen's remarks on transcription fonts, a small contribution:

Arabists and turcologists working with transcriptions used to have similar problems. In the nineties I adapted existing postscript fonts with Fontographer. I also made sure to copy kerning information from extant letters (e.g. a) to new ones (e.g. ā) with the required diacritic (usually dots, dashes and haceks). This was in the pre-unicode era.

Today there is the Brill font which is quite extended, yet I am not sure if it can be used freely in other publications.

Adapations to extant fonts can still be made with the open source app FontForge. Do not hesitate to contact me offline if you need help on this.

Regards,

Robert

info@mo-perspectief.nl


> Op 9 jan. 2022, om 11:23 heeft hanneder--- via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:
> 
>> They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.
> 
> Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that
> user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited).
> 
> 
> Dear Hans,
> 
> two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they concern hyphenation and
> font.
> 
> 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few lines. The concept of
>   "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
> 
>   What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language Sanskrit that hyphenates
>   after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
>   last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the original script). Of
>   course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we need to be able to insert
>   a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
> 
>   I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation also arises when a variant
>   is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in critical editions.
> 
> 2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This is more a lamentation, not
>   much one can do about it, I guess).
> 
>   When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly,
>   but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime Sanskritists had to search for new
>   fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I spent a lot of time with
>   OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an otf font has the underdot
>   characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial fonts, I found only one
>   "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like Minion, for instance, but the
>   latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.
> 
>   Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still work, but many entries in
>   the TeX Font Catalogue do not!
> 
> 
> Jürgen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstr.12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

>     Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still 
> work, but many entries in
>     the TeX Font Catalogue do not!

It's often not that bad when you use context ...

% \enabletrackers[*comp*]

\definefontfeature[default][default][compose=yes]

\starttext
     ṥ
\stoptext

this feature has been there quite from the start of mkiv because 
otherwise mojca couldn't deal with her language

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Fonts for transliteration (was: Critical Editions?)

[BPJ via ntg-context]

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Den sön 9 jan. 2022 13:22Robert via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> skrev:

> Dear list,
>
> I am currently working on a critical edition as well, and follow the
> discussion with interest. For the time being, I prefer Latex over Context
> for this project.
>
> In addition to Jürgen's remarks on transcription fonts, a small
> contribution:
>
> Arabists and turcologists working with transcriptions used to have similar
> problems. In the nineties I adapted existing postscript fonts with
> Fontographer. I also made sure to copy kerning information from extant
> letters (e.g. a) to new ones (e.g. ā) with the required diacritic (usually
> dots, dashes and haceks). This was in the pre-unicode era.
>
> Today there is the Brill font which is quite extended, yet I am not sure
> if it can be used freely in other publications.
>
> Adapations to extant fonts can still be made with the open source app
> FontForge. Do not hesitate to contact me offline if you need help on this.
>

The technically excellent free Google Noto Serif/Sans/Sans Mono fonts have
quite extensive coverage of Latin/Greek/Cyrillic scripts. As an
Indo-Europeanist turned programmer/editor/translator doing frequent forays
into Uralic and Afroasiatic when wearing a more general historical
linguistics hat I have found nothing missing.
(If you need a Mono Font make sure to use Noto Sans Mono which has better
coverage than Noto Mono!)

https://fonts.google.com/noto

Much the same can be said of the Charis SIL font from SIL International,
although the current release lags behind Noto when it comes to coverage.

https://software.sil.org/charis/

(Make sure to look at the downloads page for info on downloadable
customized fonts!)

There is also the Gentium SIL font with Greek and Cyrillic coverage as well
as Latin, although its design may be a bit too swashy for academic work.

If something *is* missing these are all licensed under the quite permissive
Open Font License

https://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=OFL-FAQ_web

Publishers may have their own (ideas about) fonts but for course materials,
handouts, manuscripts, databases and the like these are excellent. I do all
my work in the Vim text editor (with Noto Sans Mono) and *TeX/Pandoc.

Regards,

/Benct



> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> info@mo-perspectief.nl
>
>
> > Op 9 jan. 2022, om 11:23 heeft hanneder--- via ntg-context <
> ntg-context@ntg.nl> het volgende geschreven:
> >
> > I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:
> >
> >> They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari
> code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.
> >
> > Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that
> > user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited).
> >
> >
> > Dear Hans,
> >
> > two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they
> concern hyphenation and
> > font.
> >
> > 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few
> lines. The concept of
> >   "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
> >
> >   What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language
> Sanskrit that hyphenates
> >   after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī,
> u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
> >   last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the
> original script). Of
> >   course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we
> need to be able to insert
> >   a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
> >
> >   I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation
> also arises when a variant
> >   is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in
> critical editions.
> >
> > 2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This
> is more a lamentation, not
> >   much one can do about it, I guess).
> >
> >   When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as
> a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly,
> >   but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime Sanskritists
> had to search for new
> >   fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I
> spent a lot of time with
> >   OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an
> otf font has the underdot
> >   characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial fonts,
> I found only one
> >   "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like
> Minion, for instance, but the
> >   latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.
> >
> >   Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still
> work, but many entries in
> >   the TeX Font Catalogue do not!
> >
> >
> > Jürgen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> > Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> > FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> > Deutschhausstr.12
> > 35032 Marburg
> > Germany
> > Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> > hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de
> >
> >
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry
> to the Wiki!
> >
> > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> > webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> > archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> > wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> >
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

> 2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This 
> is more a lamentation, not
>     much one can do about it, I guess).
> 
>     When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as 
> a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly,
>     but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime 
> Sanskritists had to search for new
>     fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I 
> spent a lot of time with
>     OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an 
> otf font has the underdot
>     characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial 
> fonts, I found only one
>     "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like 
> Minion, for instance, but the
>     latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.
> 
>     Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still 
> work, but many entries in
>     the TeX Font Catalogue do not!
Because minion has no bottom accent ... in a next version you can try this:

\starttext

     \definefontfeature[default][default][fakecombining=yes,compose=yes]

     \setupbodyfont[minion]

     [x][\char"2D9][x][\char"323] ṭḍṃḥ

\stoptext

there are more such accents but i have no time not to collect them 
(maybe we need a mechanism for missing / patching characters in lfg 
files like we have for math) because in the end 'generic' heuristics 
might fails us

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

> 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few 
> lines. The concept of
>     "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
> 
>     What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language 
> Sanskrit that hyphenates
>     after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, 
> ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
>     last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in 
> the original script). Of
>     course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so 
> we need to be able to insert
>     a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
> 
>     I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation 
> also arises when a variant
>     is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance 
> in critical editions.
two things here:

transliterations ... do we need a mechanism for that ? latin in -> 
something else out (if so i need specs)

hypenation ... so no patterns, just injecting discretionaries after 
specific vowels ... doable but it has to happen a some specific moment 
because when language bound it's too soon, and the font handler does 
some reshuffling; it can probabloy best be done after fonts have been 
done ... given specs a typical rainy weekend activity

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Fonts for transliteration (was: Critical Editions?)

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

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Cardo is another nice font: https://www.scholarsfonts.net/

Denis

Von: ntg-context <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl> Im Auftrag von BPJ via ntg-context
Gesendet: Sonntag, 9. Januar 2022 17:18
An: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
Cc: BPJ <bpj@melroch.se>
Betreff: [NTG-context] Fonts for transliteration (was: Critical Editions?)


Den sön 9 jan. 2022 13:22Robert via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl<mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> skrev:
Dear list,

I am currently working on a critical edition as well, and follow the discussion with interest. For the time being, I prefer Latex over Context for this project.

In addition to Jürgen's remarks on transcription fonts, a small contribution:

Arabists and turcologists working with transcriptions used to have similar problems. In the nineties I adapted existing postscript fonts with Fontographer. I also made sure to copy kerning information from extant letters (e.g. a) to new ones (e.g. ā) with the required diacritic (usually dots, dashes and haceks). This was in the pre-unicode era.

Today there is the Brill font which is quite extended, yet I am not sure if it can be used freely in other publications.

Adapations to extant fonts can still be made with the open source app FontForge. Do not hesitate to contact me offline if you need help on this.

The technically excellent free Google Noto Serif/Sans/Sans Mono fonts have quite extensive coverage of Latin/Greek/Cyrillic scripts. As an Indo-Europeanist turned programmer/editor/translator doing frequent forays into Uralic and Afroasiatic when wearing a more general historical linguistics hat I have found nothing missing.
(If you need a Mono Font make sure to use Noto Sans Mono which has better coverage than Noto Mono!)

https://fonts.google.com/noto

Much the same can be said of the Charis SIL font from SIL International, although the current release lags behind Noto when it comes to coverage.

https://software.sil.org/charis/

(Make sure to look at the downloads page for info on downloadable customized fonts!)

There is also the Gentium SIL font with Greek and Cyrillic coverage as well as Latin, although its design may be a bit too swashy for academic work.

If something *is* missing these are all licensed under the quite permissive Open Font License

https://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=OFL-FAQ_web

Publishers may have their own (ideas about) fonts but for course materials, handouts, manuscripts, databases and the like these are excellent. I do all my work in the Vim text editor (with Noto Sans Mono) and *TeX/Pandoc.

Regards,

/Benct



Regards,

Robert

info@mo-perspectief.nl<mailto:info@mo-perspectief.nl>


> Op 9 jan. 2022, om 11:23 heeft hanneder--- via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl<mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> het volgende geschreven:
>
> I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:
>
>> They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.
>
> Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that
> user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited).
>
>
> Dear Hans,
>
> two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they concern hyphenation and
> font.
>
> 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few lines. The concept of
>   "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
>
>   What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language Sanskrit that hyphenates
>   after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
>   last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the original script). Of
>   course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we need to be able to insert
>   a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
>
>   I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation also arises when a variant
>   is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in critical editions.
>
> 2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This is more a lamentation, not
>   much one can do about it, I guess).
>
>   When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly,
>   but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime Sanskritists had to search for new
>   fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I spent a lot of time with
>   OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an otf font has the underdot
>   characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial fonts, I found only one
>   "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like Minion, for instance, but the
>   latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.
>
>   Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still work, but many entries in
>   the TeX Font Catalogue do not!
>
>
> Jürgen
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstr.12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de<mailto:hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl<mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl<mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

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[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 493 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Critical Editions?

[Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context]

On Sun, Jan 09, 2022 at 11:46:44PM +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
>> 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few
>> lines. The concept of
>>     "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
>> 
>>     What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language
>> Sanskrit that hyphenates
>>     after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i,
>> ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
>>     last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in
>> the original script). Of
>>     course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so
>> we need to be able to insert
>>     a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
>> 
>>     I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation
>> also arises when a variant
>>     is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance
>> in critical editions.
>
> hypenation ... so no patterns, just injecting discretionaries after specific
> vowels ... doable but it has to happen a some specific moment because when
> language bound it's too soon, and the font handler does some reshuffling; it
> can probabloy best be done after fonts have been done ... given specs a
> typical rainy weekend activity

  There are patterns, that implement almost exactly the kind of
automatic hyphenation Jürgen describes (see
https://github.com/hyphenation/tex-hyphen/blob/master/hyph-utf8/tex/generic/hyph-utf8/patterns/tex/hyph-sa.tex#L50L134).
They’re just not in the ConTeXt distribution ...

	Arthur
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Fonts for transliteration (was: Critical Editions?)

[BPJ via ntg-context]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7242 bytes --]

Den mån 10 jan. 2022 10:34 <denis.maier@unibe.ch> skrev:

> Cardo is another nice font: https://www.scholarsfonts.net/
>
>
>
> Denis
>

Not entirely free last time I looked, and had issues with the rendering of
its lowercase ‹o› (which I suspected was deliberately introduced in the
free version, although that may be unwarranted geek paranoia! :-)

BTW Doulos SIL is their Times clone, although it at least used to lack
italics, which makes it a no-starter for most comparatists who use italics
for object language.



>
> *Von:* ntg-context <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl> *Im Auftrag von *BPJ via
> ntg-context
> *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 9. Januar 2022 17:18
> *An:* mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> *Cc:* BPJ <bpj@melroch.se>
> *Betreff:* [NTG-context] Fonts for transliteration (was: Critical
> Editions?)
>
>
>
>
>
> Den sön 9 jan. 2022 13:22Robert via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> skrev:
>
> Dear list,
>
> I am currently working on a critical edition as well, and follow the
> discussion with interest. For the time being, I prefer Latex over Context
> for this project.
>
> In addition to Jürgen's remarks on transcription fonts, a small
> contribution:
>
> Arabists and turcologists working with transcriptions used to have similar
> problems. In the nineties I adapted existing postscript fonts with
> Fontographer. I also made sure to copy kerning information from extant
> letters (e.g. a) to new ones (e.g. ā) with the required diacritic (usually
> dots, dashes and haceks). This was in the pre-unicode era.
>
> Today there is the Brill font which is quite extended, yet I am not sure
> if it can be used freely in other publications.
>
> Adapations to extant fonts can still be made with the open source app
> FontForge. Do not hesitate to contact me offline if you need help on this.
>
>
>
> The technically excellent free Google Noto Serif/Sans/Sans Mono fonts have
> quite extensive coverage of Latin/Greek/Cyrillic scripts. As an
> Indo-Europeanist turned programmer/editor/translator doing frequent forays
> into Uralic and Afroasiatic when wearing a more general historical
> linguistics hat I have found nothing missing.
>
> (If you need a Mono Font make sure to use Noto Sans Mono which has better
> coverage than Noto Mono!)
>
>
>
> https://fonts.google.com/noto
>
>
>
> Much the same can be said of the Charis SIL font from SIL International,
> although the current release lags behind Noto when it comes to coverage.
>
>
>
> https://software.sil.org/charis/
>
>
>
> (Make sure to look at the downloads page for info on downloadable
> customized fonts!)
>
>
>
> There is also the Gentium SIL font with Greek and Cyrillic coverage as
> well as Latin, although its design may be a bit too swashy for academic
> work.
>
>
>
> If something *is* missing these are all licensed under the quite
> permissive Open Font License
>
>
>
> https://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=OFL-FAQ_web
>
>
>
> Publishers may have their own (ideas about) fonts but for course
> materials, handouts, manuscripts, databases and the like these are
> excellent. I do all my work in the Vim text editor (with Noto Sans Mono)
> and *TeX/Pandoc.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> /Benct
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> info@mo-perspectief.nl
>
>
> > Op 9 jan. 2022, om 11:23 heeft hanneder--- via ntg-context <
> ntg-context@ntg.nl> het volgende geschreven:
> >
> > I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:
> >
> >> They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari
> code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.
> >
> > Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that
> > user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited).
> >
> >
> > Dear Hans,
> >
> > two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they
> concern hyphenation and
> > font.
> >
> > 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few
> lines. The concept of
> >   "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
> >
> >   What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language
> Sanskrit that hyphenates
> >   after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī,
> u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
> >   last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the
> original script). Of
> >   course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we
> need to be able to insert
> >   a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
> >
> >   I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation
> also arises when a variant
> >   is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in
> critical editions.
> >
> > 2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This
> is more a lamentation, not
> >   much one can do about it, I guess).
> >
> >   When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as
> a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly,
> >   but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime Sanskritists
> had to search for new
> >   fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I
> spent a lot of time with
> >   OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an
> otf font has the underdot
> >   characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial fonts,
> I found only one
> >   "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like
> Minion, for instance, but the
> >   latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.
> >
> >   Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still
> work, but many entries in
> >   the TeX Font Catalogue do not!
> >
> >
> > Jürgen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> > Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> > FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> > Deutschhausstr.12
> > 35032 Marburg
> > Germany
> > Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> > hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de
> >
> >
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry
> to the Wiki!
> >
> > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> > webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> > archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> > wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> >
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Fonts for transliteration (was: Critical Editions?)

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

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Oh, thank’s for adding this. I’ll probably need to check whether these issues still exist.

Denis

Von: BPJ <bpj@melroch.se>
Gesendet: Montag, 10. Januar 2022 13:29
An: Maier, Denis Christian (UB) <denis.maier@unibe.ch>
Cc: bpj <bpj@melroch.se>; mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Fonts for transliteration (was: Critical Editions?)


Den mån 10 jan. 2022 10:34 <denis.maier@unibe.ch<mailto:denis.maier@unibe.ch>> skrev:
Cardo is another nice font: https://www.scholarsfonts.net/

Denis

Not entirely free last time I looked, and had issues with the rendering of its lowercase ‹o› (which I suspected was deliberately introduced in the free version, although that may be unwarranted geek paranoia! :-)

BTW Doulos SIL is their Times clone, although it at least used to lack italics, which makes it a no-starter for most comparatists who use italics for object language.



Von: ntg-context <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl<mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl>> Im Auftrag von BPJ via ntg-context
Gesendet: Sonntag, 9. Januar 2022 17:18
An: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl<mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>>
Cc: BPJ <bpj@melroch.se<mailto:bpj@melroch.se>>
Betreff: [NTG-context] Fonts for transliteration (was: Critical Editions?)


Den sön 9 jan. 2022 13:22Robert via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl<mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> skrev:
Dear list,

I am currently working on a critical edition as well, and follow the discussion with interest. For the time being, I prefer Latex over Context for this project.

In addition to Jürgen's remarks on transcription fonts, a small contribution:

Arabists and turcologists working with transcriptions used to have similar problems. In the nineties I adapted existing postscript fonts with Fontographer. I also made sure to copy kerning information from extant letters (e.g. a) to new ones (e.g. ā) with the required diacritic (usually dots, dashes and haceks). This was in the pre-unicode era.

Today there is the Brill font which is quite extended, yet I am not sure if it can be used freely in other publications.

Adapations to extant fonts can still be made with the open source app FontForge. Do not hesitate to contact me offline if you need help on this.

The technically excellent free Google Noto Serif/Sans/Sans Mono fonts have quite extensive coverage of Latin/Greek/Cyrillic scripts. As an Indo-Europeanist turned programmer/editor/translator doing frequent forays into Uralic and Afroasiatic when wearing a more general historical linguistics hat I have found nothing missing.
(If you need a Mono Font make sure to use Noto Sans Mono which has better coverage than Noto Mono!)

https://fonts.google.com/noto

Much the same can be said of the Charis SIL font from SIL International, although the current release lags behind Noto when it comes to coverage.

https://software.sil.org/charis/

(Make sure to look at the downloads page for info on downloadable customized fonts!)

There is also the Gentium SIL font with Greek and Cyrillic coverage as well as Latin, although its design may be a bit too swashy for academic work.

If something *is* missing these are all licensed under the quite permissive Open Font License

https://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=OFL-FAQ_web

Publishers may have their own (ideas about) fonts but for course materials, handouts, manuscripts, databases and the like these are excellent. I do all my work in the Vim text editor (with Noto Sans Mono) and *TeX/Pandoc.

Regards,

/Benct



Regards,

Robert

info@mo-perspectief.nl<mailto:info@mo-perspectief.nl>


> Op 9 jan. 2022, om 11:23 heeft hanneder--- via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl<mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> het volgende geschreven:
>
> I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:
>
>> They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.
>
> Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that
> user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited).
>
>
> Dear Hans,
>
> two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they concern hyphenation and
> font.
>
> 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few lines. The concept of
>   "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
>
>   What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language Sanskrit that hyphenates
>   after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
>   last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the original script). Of
>   course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we need to be able to insert
>   a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
>
>   I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation also arises when a variant
>   is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in critical editions.
>
> 2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This is more a lamentation, not
>   much one can do about it, I guess).
>
>   When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly,
>   but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime Sanskritists had to search for new
>   fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I spent a lot of time with
>   OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an otf font has the underdot
>   characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial fonts, I found only one
>   "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like Minion, for instance, but the
>   latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.
>
>   Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still work, but many entries in
>   the TeX Font Catalogue do not!
>
>
> Jürgen
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstr.12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de<mailto:hanneder@staff.uni-marburg.de>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl<mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

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Re: Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Thank you very much Arthur !

Yves Codet (Assistant Professor at Toulouse University, member of CRAPA 
an institutional public research in Humanities in South of France) is 
involved in TeX patterns for Greek and Indic languages. He is a 
translator of Indian theater pieces (among other things).

See there : https://ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/xetex/hyphenation/sanhyph

And his involvement in the discussion about Devanagari romanisation for 
translitteration and/or specific UTF8 specification in order to respect 
Devanagari and Brahmi hyphenation with XeTeX.

https://tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2008-October/010904.html

Le 10/01/2022 à 12:26, Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context a écrit :
> On Sun, Jan 09, 2022 at 11:46:44PM +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
>> On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
>>> 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few
>>> lines. The concept of
>>>      "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
>>>
>>>      What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language
>>> Sanskrit that hyphenates
>>>      after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i,
>>> ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
>>>      last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in
>>> the original script). Of
>>>      course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so
>>> we need to be able to insert
>>>      a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
>>>
>>>      I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation
>>> also arises when a variant
>>>      is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance
>>> in critical editions.
>> hypenation ... so no patterns, just injecting discretionaries after specific
>> vowels ... doable but it has to happen a some specific moment because when
>> language bound it's too soon, and the font handler does some reshuffling; it
>> can probabloy best be done after fonts have been done ... given specs a
>> typical rainy weekend activity
>    There are patterns, that implement almost exactly the kind of
> automatic hyphenation Jürgen describes (see
> https://github.com/hyphenation/tex-hyphen/blob/master/hyph-utf8/tex/generic/hyph-utf8/patterns/tex/hyph-sa.tex#L50L134).
> They’re just not in the ConTeXt distribution ...
>
> 	Arthur
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Ancients&Moderns
Professeur Agrégé de Philosophie (HC)

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Re: Critical Editions?

[Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 02:31:53PM +0100, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:
> Yves Codet (Assistant Professor at Toulouse University, member of CRAPA an
> institutional public research in Humanities in South of France) is involved
> in TeX patterns for Greek and Indic languages. He is a translator of Indian
> theater pieces (among other things).

  Yes, the GitHub repository I linked to contains the up-to-date version
of Yves’ Sanskrit patterns (latest substantive revision September 2011).
They support Latin transliteration and a number of modern Indic scripts,
but not Brahmi, which I’m sure he’ll be happy to add if there’s a need.
Yves has not as far as I know been involved in the development of
hyphenation patterns for Greek (whether Ancient or Modern).

	Best,

		Arthur
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Re: Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

> 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few 
> lines. The concept of
>     "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
> 
>     What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language 
> Sanskrit that hyphenates
>     after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, 
> ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
>     last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in 
> the original script). Of
>     course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so 
> we need to be able to insert
>     a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
> 
>     I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation 
> also arises when a variant
>     is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance 
> in critical editions.
I can add sanskit patterns to the distribution but I wonder: how does 
this interact with reordering in fonts? Do we need to postpone 
hyphenation till after reordering?

Hans

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Re: Critical Editions?

[Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 08:06:14PM +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> I can add sanskit patterns to the distribution but I wonder: how does this
> interact with reordering in fonts? Do we need to postpone hyphenation till
> after reordering?

  If you mean glyph reordering in Indic scripts, it should happen later
than hyphenation; it’s no different than ligatures in Latin in that
respect.  But I don’t know how it is implemented in ConTeXt ...
The existing patterns don’t hyphenate any reordering sign (or indeed any
dependent vowel sign).  If they do, it’s a bug and we need to fix it :-)

  Note that Jürgen mentioned Latin transliteration where glyph
reordering is not an issue (but ligatures of course are).

	Best,

		Arthur
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