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* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
@ 2020-11-02 16:25 Norman Wilson
  2020-11-02 17:16 ` arnold
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Norman Wilson @ 2020-11-02 16:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

There also exists a latter-day AT&T version of the Lions
book.  White cover with deathstar logo; standard US letter-
sized paper, perfect-bound along the short edge.  Two
volumes: one for the source code, one for the commentary.

I have a copy, and I bet Andrew does too: as I remember,
he got a handful of them from Judy Macor (who used to
handle licensing requests--I remember speaking to her
on the phone once in my pre-Labs days) when she was
clearing old stuff out of her office, and I nabbed one.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
  2020-11-02 16:25 [TUHS] Lions notes, early history Norman Wilson
@ 2020-11-02 17:16 ` arnold
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-11-02 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs, norman

The 1996 reprint is available:

https://www.amazon.com/Lions-Commentary-Unix-John/dp/1573980137/ref=sr_1_1?crid=4GU9QHV2HJM&dchild=1&keywords=john+lions+unix&qid=1604337238&sprefix=john+lions%2Caps%2C295&sr=8-1

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
  2020-11-02 11:04     ` arnold
@ 2020-11-03  1:16       ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey @ 2020-11-03  1:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs

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On Monday,  2 November 2020 at  4:04:21 -0700, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I had the orange and red books but I sold them to a fellow in Europe
>> who has a Unix Museum. He also bought one of UNIX lice eggs plates.
>>
>> I took high resolution photos of each page before I sent them to Europe. I
>> can send copies if that is legal and anyone is interested.
>>
>> Ed Bradford
>> Pflugerville, TX
>
> Given that the Lions book was republished for anyone to purchase a few
> years back (I bought a copy, as well as having a samisdat photocopy),
> I see no reason why they couldn't be freely distributed. Maybe even
> added to the archives, if Warren agrees.

Yes, it's freely available now, as of about 2002.  You can download it
from http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/ .  My question
related to a discussion about its copyright status when it was
written, and how it was published.  Warren's photos conveniently show
the title page (with dedication by Lions himself) with the text

  This document may contain information covered by one or more
  licenses, copyright and non-disclosure agreements.  Circulation of
  this document is restricted to holders of a license for the UNIX
  Software System from Western Electric.  All other circulation or
  reproduction is prohibited.

Since the release of the Ancient Unix license in 2002, this no longer
applies, of course.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
  2020-11-02  5:07 Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  2020-11-02  5:21 ` Warner Losh
  2020-11-02  7:21 ` Andrew Hume
@ 2020-11-02 21:17 ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2020-11-02 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Mon, 2 Nov 2020, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> Warner Losh and I have been discussing the early history of John Lions' 
> "A commentary on the Sixth Edition UNIX Operating System". I've been 
> hosting Warren Toomey's version (with some correction of scan errors) at 
> http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/ for some years now, and 
> my understanding had been that the book hadn't been published, just 
> photocopied, until Warren posted it on alt.folklore.computers in 1994. 
> But now it seems that the "book" had been published by UNSW when Lions 
> held the course, and only later was the license revoked.  Does anybody 
> have any insights?  What restrictions were there on its distribution? 
> What was the format? Was it a real book, or just bound notes?

Nroff, in bound notes at the time; it did not come out in book format 
until later (I suppose that it depends upon your definition of "book" vs. 
"bound notes"...  I was involved in it (you'll see my name in the 
credits).

I helped to proof-read it, and I lent him our LA-100 for the draft copy.

He was one of the best Comp Sci lecturers that I ever had, along with Ken 
Robinson (no longer with us) and Graham McMahon (ditto).

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
  2020-11-02  7:21 ` Andrew Hume
  2020-11-02  7:59   ` David Arnold
@ 2020-11-02 14:26   ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-11-02 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andrew Hume; +Cc: UNIX Heritage Society

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Andrew - can't speak for the original, but the BTL version was red and
orange and was perfect bound.  But, I was not on 11x17 - it must have been
printed on A3 paper, as copying was always a little funny (maybe it was on
traditional 'green bar' size 14 7/8 x 11 - I don't remember - but my copy
of the original was on US 11x17).

Ordering it originally was difficult.   I remember that we tried to order a
copy for Tektronix in the summer/fall of 1979 because I had my n-th
generation xerographic copy that I had brought from CMU and Tek wanted to
legitimate copy.  IIRC, I wrote the PO request and it bounced back from Tek
purchasing because it had been denied by somebody at AT&T.  We had to call
the right person (Al Arms if memory serves me), and then I had the restart
on the Tek side, but we did eventually get an official version - which
as on my desk for a few years [Of course, we immediately made more copies
-- I think I made them for Steve Glaser, Mike Zuhl, Ward Cunningham and
possibly Jon if he did not yet have a copy from his BTL days].

When I left Tek I gave the original Tektronix copy of the two books to
Terry Laskodi.  I have wondered what happened to that copy after he
tragically died in the early 1980s.  I fear it was tossed by someone that
had no idea what its value was.

Clem

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 2:44 AM Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:

> i was a TA for the course which used this as a textbook.
> my memory is little faded on this (it was on the other side of my stroke),
> but i believe they were perfect bound (cloth strip and glue) and had
> two different colors for the covers (i want to say orange and red).
> they might have been just stapled but they were thick enough that staples
> might have been insufficient.
>
> i certainly remember john printing them off on the DEC printer.
>
> as for the permissions, i can’t recall anything at the time (this was
> about 45 years ago),
> but do remember the fuss at the Labs when Bell Labs started printing their
> own
> high security copies just a couple of years later.
>
>         andrew hume
>
> > On Nov 1, 2020, at 9:07 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
> >
> > Warner Losh and I have been discussing the early history of John
> > Lions' "A commentary on the Sixth Edition UNIX Operating System".
> > I've been hosting Warren Toomey's version (with some correction of
> > scan errors) at http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/ for
> > some years now, and my understanding had been that the book hadn't
> > been published, just photocopied, until Warren posted it on
> > alt.folklore.computers in 1994.  But now it seems that the "book" had
> > been published by UNSW when Lions held the course, and only later was
> > the license revoked.  Does anybody have any insights?  What
> > restrictions were there on its distribution?  What was the format?
> > Was it a real book, or just bound notes?
> >
> > Greg
> > --
> > Sent from my desktop computer.
> > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
> > See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
> > This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
> > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
  2020-11-02 10:26   ` Ed Bradford
@ 2020-11-02 11:04     ` arnold
  2020-11-03  1:16       ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-11-02 11:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: imp, egbegb2; +Cc: tuhs

Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote:

> I had the orange and red books but I sold them to a fellow in Europe
> who has a Unix Museum. He also bought one of UNIX lice eggs plates.
> 
> I took high resolution photos of each page before I sent them to Europe. I
> can send copies if that is legal and anyone is interested.
>
> Ed Bradford
> Pflugerville, TX

Given that the Lions book was republished for anyone to purchase a few
years back (I bought a copy, as well as having a samisdat photocopy),
I see no reason why they couldn't be freely distributed. Maybe even
added to the archives, if Warren agrees.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
  2020-11-02  5:21 ` Warner Losh
  2020-11-02  9:51   ` Warren Toomey
@ 2020-11-02 10:26   ` Ed Bradford
  2020-11-02 11:04     ` arnold
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ed Bradford @ 2020-11-02 10:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: UNIX Heritage Society

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I had the orange and red books but I sold them to a fellow in Europe who has a Unix Museum. He also bought one of UNIX lice eggs plates.

I took high resolution photos of each page before I sent them to Europe. I can send copies if that is legal and anyone is interested.

Ed Bradford
Pflugerville, TX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 1, 2020, at 11:22 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 10:16 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
>> Warner Losh and I have been discussing the early history of John
>> Lions' "A commentary on the Sixth Edition UNIX Operating System".
>> I've been hosting Warren Toomey's version (with some correction of
>> scan errors) at http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/ for
>> some years now, and my understanding had been that the book hadn't
>> been published, just photocopied, until Warren posted it on
>> alt.folklore.computers in 1994.  But now it seems that the "book" had
>> been published by UNSW when Lions held the course, and only later was
>> the license revoked.  Does anybody have any insights?  What
>> restrictions were there on its distribution?  What was the format?
>> Was it a real book, or just bound notes?
> 
> The pictures I've seen online are of a bound book, but lack photos of what's inside. It contained a legend in the front saying you needed a 6th edition license from AT&T to receive a copy.  Beyond that, I'd love to hear what others know about this detail.
> 
> Warner 

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
  2020-11-02  5:21 ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-11-02  9:51   ` Warren Toomey
  2020-11-02 10:26   ` Ed Bradford
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Warren Toomey @ 2020-11-02  9:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: UNIX Heritage Society

On Sun, Nov 01, 2020 at 10:21:23PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
>    The pictures I've seen online are of a bound book, but lack photos of
>    what's inside. It contained a legend in the front saying you needed a
>    6th edition license from AT&T to receive a copy.  Beyond that, I'd love
>    to hear what others know about this detail.

I have my copies here, and have just taken some photos:

  https://minnie.tuhs.org/wktcloud/index.php/s/2io7tpmTyn8WWeP

29.7cm by 21.0cm by about 7mm thick, each. They seem to be photocopied
sheets, stapled on the left, with coloured front and back pages, with a
brown cloth binding glued over the left-hand edge. One is magenta, the
other is dull orange. My photos make the orange one brighter than it
actually is, sorry it's artifical light (night-time) here.

Cheers, Warren

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
  2020-11-02  7:21 ` Andrew Hume
@ 2020-11-02  7:59   ` David Arnold
  2020-11-02 14:26   ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: David Arnold @ 2020-11-02  7:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: UNIX Heritage Society

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The UNSW Library Appears to have a copy in their storage, accessible by special request.  It has a copyright date of “c1977” so it’s not the later “properly” published edition. 

https://primoa.library.unsw.edu.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?vid=UNSWS&docid=UNSW_ALMA21116225050001731&query=any,contains,John%20lions&_ga=2.60871272.51366765.1604303632-102727300.1604303632



d


> On 2 Nov 2020, at 18:44, Andrew Hume <andrew@humeweb.com> wrote:
> 
> i was a TA for the course which used this as a textbook.
> my memory is little faded on this (it was on the other side of my stroke),
> but i believe they were perfect bound (cloth strip and glue) and had
> two different colors for the covers (i want to say orange and red).
> they might have been just stapled but they were thick enough that staples
> might have been insufficient.
> 
> i certainly remember john printing them off on the DEC printer.
> 
> as for the permissions, i can’t recall anything at the time (this was about 45 years ago),
> but do remember the fuss at the Labs when Bell Labs started printing their own
> high security copies just a couple of years later.
> 
>    andrew hume
> 
>> On Nov 1, 2020, at 9:07 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Warner Losh and I have been discussing the early history of John
>> Lions' "A commentary on the Sixth Edition UNIX Operating System".
>> I've been hosting Warren Toomey's version (with some correction of
>> scan errors) at http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/ for
>> some years now, and my understanding had been that the book hadn't
>> been published, just photocopied, until Warren posted it on
>> alt.folklore.computers in 1994.  But now it seems that the "book" had
>> been published by UNSW when Lions held the course, and only later was
>> the license revoked.  Does anybody have any insights?  What
>> restrictions were there on its distribution?  What was the format?
>> Was it a real book, or just bound notes?
>> 
>> Greg
>> --
>> Sent from my desktop computer.
>> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
>> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
>> This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
>> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
> 

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
  2020-11-02  5:07 Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  2020-11-02  5:21 ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-11-02  7:21 ` Andrew Hume
  2020-11-02  7:59   ` David Arnold
  2020-11-02 14:26   ` Clem Cole
  2020-11-02 21:17 ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Hume @ 2020-11-02  7:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey; +Cc: UNIX Heritage Society

i was a TA for the course which used this as a textbook.
my memory is little faded on this (it was on the other side of my stroke),
but i believe they were perfect bound (cloth strip and glue) and had
two different colors for the covers (i want to say orange and red).
they might have been just stapled but they were thick enough that staples
might have been insufficient.

i certainly remember john printing them off on the DEC printer.

as for the permissions, i can’t recall anything at the time (this was about 45 years ago),
but do remember the fuss at the Labs when Bell Labs started printing their own
high security copies just a couple of years later.

	andrew hume

> On Nov 1, 2020, at 9:07 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
> 
> Warner Losh and I have been discussing the early history of John
> Lions' "A commentary on the Sixth Edition UNIX Operating System".
> I've been hosting Warren Toomey's version (with some correction of
> scan errors) at http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/ for
> some years now, and my understanding had been that the book hadn't
> been published, just photocopied, until Warren posted it on
> alt.folklore.computers in 1994.  But now it seems that the "book" had
> been published by UNSW when Lions held the course, and only later was
> the license revoked.  Does anybody have any insights?  What
> restrictions were there on its distribution?  What was the format?
> Was it a real book, or just bound notes?
> 
> Greg
> --
> Sent from my desktop computer.
> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
> This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
  2020-11-02  5:07 Greg 'groggy' Lehey
@ 2020-11-02  5:21 ` Warner Losh
  2020-11-02  9:51   ` Warren Toomey
  2020-11-02 10:26   ` Ed Bradford
  2020-11-02  7:21 ` Andrew Hume
  2020-11-02 21:17 ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-11-02  5:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey; +Cc: UNIX Heritage Society

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On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 10:16 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com> wrote:

> Warner Losh and I have been discussing the early history of John
> Lions' "A commentary on the Sixth Edition UNIX Operating System".
> I've been hosting Warren Toomey's version (with some correction of
> scan errors) at http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/ for
> some years now, and my understanding had been that the book hadn't
> been published, just photocopied, until Warren posted it on
> alt.folklore.computers in 1994.  But now it seems that the "book" had
> been published by UNSW when Lions held the course, and only later was
> the license revoked.  Does anybody have any insights?  What
> restrictions were there on its distribution?  What was the format?
> Was it a real book, or just bound notes?
>

The pictures I've seen online are of a bound book, but lack photos of
what's inside. It contained a legend in the front saying you needed a 6th
edition license from AT&T to receive a copy.  Beyond that, I'd love to hear
what others know about this detail.

Warner

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Lions notes, early history
@ 2020-11-02  5:07 Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  2020-11-02  5:21 ` Warner Losh
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey @ 2020-11-02  5:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: UNIX Heritage Society

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Warner Losh and I have been discussing the early history of John
Lions' "A commentary on the Sixth Edition UNIX Operating System".
I've been hosting Warren Toomey's version (with some correction of
scan errors) at http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/ for
some years now, and my understanding had been that the book hadn't
been published, just photocopied, until Warren posted it on
alt.folklore.computers in 1994.  But now it seems that the "book" had
been published by UNSW when Lions held the course, and only later was
the license revoked.  Does anybody have any insights?  What
restrictions were there on its distribution?  What was the format?
Was it a real book, or just bound notes?

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-11-03  1:17 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-11-02 16:25 [TUHS] Lions notes, early history Norman Wilson
2020-11-02 17:16 ` arnold
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-11-02  5:07 Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2020-11-02  5:21 ` Warner Losh
2020-11-02  9:51   ` Warren Toomey
2020-11-02 10:26   ` Ed Bradford
2020-11-02 11:04     ` arnold
2020-11-03  1:16       ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2020-11-02  7:21 ` Andrew Hume
2020-11-02  7:59   ` David Arnold
2020-11-02 14:26   ` Clem Cole
2020-11-02 21:17 ` Dave Horsfall

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