[TUHS] Honor declined

[TUHS] Honor declined

[Douglas McIlroy]

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> When Rudd, Doug, Ken, Dennis, *et al* start to develop UNIX

Although I jumped into Unix as soon as it was born, I was not one of those
who "start[ed] to develop it".

Doug

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[TUHS] Re: Honor declined

[Brantley Coile]

It all depends on how you define "started." 

Your contributions to it was done while it was still in the maternity ward of the hospital in which it was birthed. I would argue, at length if need be, but I suspect it's not needed, that you indeed "started to develop it." Did only Ken started it. Who was in the room when Ken outlined the file system? You're finger prints are all over everything from very, very early. 

From a quarter the way into the 21st century, you certainly appear to have started to develop it.

Just my humble opinion. my disclaimer is that I've always held your contributions in very high regard.

Brantley

> On Mar 6, 2024, at 9:55 AM, Douglas McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
> > When Rudd, Doug, Ken, Dennis, et al start to develop UNIX
> 
> Although I jumped into Unix as soon as it was born, I was not one of those who "start[ed] to develop it".
> 
> Doug

[TUHS] Re: Honor declined

[Douglas McIlroy]

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Very kind words from Brantley and Clem. It's an interesting notion to
regard Unix as gestational until it came out in public talks (1973) and was
exported to universities.

Maybe I could claim to have laid the groundwork for Unix by causing Multics
to be written in PL/I, a language big and sprawling, like the project
itself. That unintentionally provided plenty of stimulus for thinking
small. Ken was absolutely on his own when he began to fiddle with building
a tiny operating system on the GE 645. I heard about it only after the
fact.

After Multics, I ran interference to keep our once-burned higher management
from frowning too much on further operating-system research. I was aware
that Ken, Dennis and Rudd were discussing the subject down the hall from my
office, but I did not participate in the discussions. At the same time, I
was noodling over what would later be called shell pipelines; but I did not
come up with the vivid term "pipe"  or a halfway workable syntax for
another three years. While these actions may have contributed to a
welcoming environment for Unix, they in no way "started" it.

Doug

On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 10:03 AM Brantley Coile <brantley@coraid.com> wrote:

> It all depends on how you define "started."
>
> Your contributions to it was done while it was still in the maternity ward
> of the hospital in which it was birthed. I would argue, at length if need
> be, but I suspect it's not needed, that you indeed "started to develop it."
> Did only Ken started it. Who was in the room when Ken outlined the file
> system? You're finger prints are all over everything from very, very early.
>
> From a quarter the way into the 21st century, you certainly appear to have
> started to develop it.
>
> Just my humble opinion. my disclaimer is that I've always held your
> contributions in very high regard.
>
> Brantley
>
> > On Mar 6, 2024, at 9:55 AM, Douglas McIlroy <
> douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > When Rudd, Doug, Ken, Dennis, et al start to develop UNIX
> >
> > Although I jumped into Unix as soon as it was born, I was not one of
> those who "start[ed] to develop it".
> >
> > Doug
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: Honor declined

[Will Senn]

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Pioneer, then - surely, you beat the rush :).

On 3/6/24 1:53 PM, Douglas McIlroy wrote:
> Very kind words from Brantley and Clem. It's an interesting notion to 
> regard Unix as gestational until it came out in public talks (1973) 
> and was exported to universities.
>
> Maybe I could claim to have laid the groundwork for Unix by causing 
> Multics to be written in PL/I, a language big and sprawling, like the 
> project itself. That unintentionally provided plenty of stimulus for 
> thinking small. Ken was absolutely on his own when he began to fiddle 
> with building a tiny operating system on the GE 645. I heard about it 
> only after the fact.
>
> After Multics, I ran interference to keep our once-burned higher 
> management from frowning too much on further operating-system 
> research. I was aware that Ken, Dennis and Rudd were discussing the 
> subject down the hall from my office, but I did not participate in the 
> discussions. At the same time, I was noodling over what would later be 
> called shell pipelines; but I did not come up with the vivid term 
> "pipe"  or a halfway workable syntax for another three years. While 
> these actions may have contributed to a welcoming environment for 
> Unix, they in no way "started" it.
>
> Doug
>
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 10:03 AM Brantley Coile <brantley@coraid.com> 
> wrote:
>
>     It all depends on how you define "started."
>
>     Your contributions to it was done while it was still in the
>     maternity ward of the hospital in which it was birthed. I would
>     argue, at length if need be, but I suspect it's not needed, that
>     you indeed "started to develop it." Did only Ken started it. Who
>     was in the room when Ken outlined the file system? You're finger
>     prints are all over everything from very, very early.
>
>     From a quarter the way into the 21st century, you certainly appear
>     to have started to develop it.
>
>     Just my humble opinion. my disclaimer is that I've always held
>     your contributions in very high regard.
>
>     Brantley
>
>     > On Mar 6, 2024, at 9:55 AM, Douglas McIlroy
>     <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>     >
>     > > When Rudd, Doug, Ken, Dennis, et al start to develop UNIX
>     >
>     > Although I jumped into Unix as soon as it was born, I was not
>     one of those who "start[ed] to develop it".
>     >
>     > Doug
>

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[TUHS] Re: Honor declined

[segaloco via TUHS]

On Wednesday, March 6th, 2024 at 11:53 AM, Douglas McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> After Multics, I ran interference to keep our once-burned higher management from frowning too much on further operating-system research. 
> 
> Doug

This alone is an all-too-valuable skill that contributes to the cultural success of countless projects.  Great ideas can too often die on the vine when the upper echelons have quite different opinions of where time and effort should be placed, and I am glad that in my own career I likewise work with understanding immediate supervisors and business analysts that go to bat for our needs and concerns.  The importance of a supportive workplace culture in which work is genuinely valued and defended cannot be understated.

- Matt G.

[TUHS] Re: Honor declined

[segaloco via TUHS]

On Wednesday, March 6th, 2024 at 3:55 PM, Ken Thompson <kenbob@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 1:45 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Wednesday, March 6th, 2024 at 11:53 AM, Douglas McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > > After Multics, I ran interference to keep our once-burned higher management from frowning too much on further operating-system research.
> > >
> > > Doug
> > 
> > This alone is an all-too-valuable skill that contributes to the cultural success of countless projects. Great ideas can too often die on the vine when the upper echelons have quite different opinions of where time and effort should be placed, and I am glad that in my own career I likewise work with understanding immediate supervisors and business analysts that go to bat for our needs and concerns. The importance of a supportive workplace culture in which work is genuinely valued and defended cannot be understated.
> > 
> > - Matt G.
>
> unix was written in c, c was written in b, b was written in tmg,and doug wrote tmg. it is all his fault.
> 
> 

Ken, your modesty is showing :)

I feel the same way about big things I'm working on in my day job.  No matter how much folks try to laud me as our architect, nothing I did would exist without what my supervisor years and years ago handed me to start with before he moved on to greener pastures.  Invention will always be a group effort, I'm just so glad this particular group effort (re: UNIX) has and continues to have the impact that it does.

A former manager (and respected colleague) would often say "I'm rubber, you're glue, what you bounce off me sticks to you." and it took me a little bit to appreciate what I thought he meant, but even longer to realize that saying encompassed the good as well.

- Matt G.

P.S. Hey Dave, I Bcc'd you, discussions with folks here often remind me of your good advice and management.  Hope you're well, would love to hear from you if you see this!

[TUHS] Re: Honor declined

[Noel Chiappa]

    >  From: Douglas McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>

    > Although I jumped into Unix as soon as it was born, I was not one of
    > those who "start[ed] to develop it".

http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/pipes/

Dennis wrote that "UNIX is a very conservative system. Only a handful of its
ideas are genuinely new." (And quite right he was, too!) Among the ones that
are new, pipes, although less important now than they used to be, were a major
part of the constellation of things that drove its adoption, early on. And I
can't see how pushing pipes was not "developing UNIX"! I'm afraid you'll just
have to live with it! :-)

    Noel

[TUHS] Re: Honor declined

[Brantley Coile]

Here here. 

bwc

> On Mar 6, 2024, at 11:54 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> From: Douglas McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>
> 
>> Although I jumped into Unix as soon as it was born, I was not one of
>> those who "start[ed] to develop it".
> 
> http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/pipes/
> 
> Dennis wrote that "UNIX is a very conservative system. Only a handful of its
> ideas are genuinely new." (And quite right he was, too!) Among the ones that
> are new, pipes, although less important now than they used to be, were a major
> part of the constellation of things that drove its adoption, early on. And I
> can't see how pushing pipes was not "developing UNIX"! I'm afraid you'll just
> have to live with it! :-)
> 
>    Noel
>