From: Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com>
To: Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com>
Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org
Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 09:15:56 +1100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAKzdPgyeCDbteSfcroubjGE_L7YO_MNZL2QxY=oZhUTG4xqhjg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20230130212434.GL12306@mcvoy.com>
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There was Plan 9 source available, but the early releases were in the AT&T
Unix mode and required some payment or academic connection. The early demo
disks might not have had source - I don't remember - but if not, there was
simply no room on a floppy. The CD releases had full source.
Plan 9 was a research system. It was hoped that maybe one day it would
become a commercial success, but that was never the prime motivation. It
only "failed" as a product, and there are many contributing factors there,
including existing systems that were good enough, a desire for people to
have "workstations" and ignore the benefits of a completing window UI on a
mainframe (Cray was an exception, earlier), and AT&T lawyers refusing to
think realistically about open source (about as polite a way I can express
a multiyear fight that never ended, only fizzled into stalemate).
As a research system, Plan 9 was a huge success. We're still talking about
its ideas 30+ years on.
-rob
On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 8:24 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 02:03:32PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:18 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:09:03AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> > > > > > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with
> Unix
> > > > > > didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a
> different
> > > > > > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing mental
> models
> > > > > > and workflows into the new environment unchanged.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a
> widespread
> > > > > > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but
> > > > > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9.
> > > > >
> > > > > Many people make that mistake. New stuff instead of extend old
> stuff.
> > > >
> > > > Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate if
> > > > we're just incrementally polishing what's come before?
> > >
> > > I didn't say limit yourself to polishing, I said try and not invalidate
> > > people's knowledge while innovating.
> > >
> > > Too many people go down the path of doing things very differently and
> > > they rationalize that they have to do it that way to innovate. That's
> > > fine but it means it is going to be harder to get people to try your
> > > new stuff.
> > >
> > > The point I'm trying to make is that "different" is a higher barrier,
> > > much, much higher, than "extend". People frequently ignore that and
> > > that means other people ignore their work.
> > >
> > > It is what it is, I doubt I'll convice anyone so I'll drop it.
> >
> > Oh, I don't know. I think it's actually kind of important to see _why_
> > people didn't want to look deeper into plan9 (for example). The system
> > had a lot to offer, but you had to dig a bit to get into it; a lot of
> > folks never got that far. If it was really lack of job control, then
> > that's a shame.
>
> It's certainly not just job control. I think it's a combo of being
> unfamiliar, no source (at first I believe) and Linux was already
> pretty far along.
>
> The lesson is that if there is an installed base, and you want people
> to move, you have to make that easy and there has to be a noticeable
> gain. Plan 9 sounded cool to me but Linux was easy.
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy Retired to fishing
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-01-30 22:17 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 69+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-01-20 22:44 [TUHS] " ron minnich
2023-01-20 22:54 ` [TUHS] " G. Branden Robinson
2023-01-20 22:56 ` Rob Pike
2023-01-20 23:11 ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-20 23:14 ` Rob Pike
2023-01-20 23:22 ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-20 23:13 ` Douglas McIlroy
2023-01-21 3:37 ` Jon Steinhart
2023-01-21 15:42 ` Clem Cole
2023-01-21 17:34 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 17:50 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 18:26 ` Clem Cole
2023-01-21 18:37 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-22 11:05 ` Jonathan Gray
2023-01-22 21:23 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-22 22:10 ` ron minnich
2023-01-23 7:30 ` arnold
2023-01-23 8:32 ` James Johnston
2023-01-23 8:58 ` G. Branden Robinson
2023-01-23 11:49 ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-23 14:25 ` Ronald Natalie
2023-01-23 17:43 ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-23 16:59 ` Douglas McIlroy
2023-01-24 7:21 ` arnold
2023-01-29 18:51 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-29 19:20 ` Ron Natalie
2023-01-29 20:25 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30 7:50 ` arnold
2023-01-30 8:09 ` Rob Pike
2023-01-30 15:02 ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 15:16 ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 15:27 ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 15:35 ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 15:45 ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:09 ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 16:18 ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 19:03 ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 19:12 ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-30 21:24 ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 22:15 ` Rob Pike [this message]
2023-01-30 22:50 ` ron minnich
2023-01-30 23:05 ` [TUHS] Child of plan9? (Re: " Bakul Shah
2023-01-31 3:19 ` [TUHS] " Andrew Warkentin
2023-01-30 16:21 ` [TUHS] " Steve Nickolas
2023-01-30 16:27 ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:32 ` ron minnich
2023-01-30 16:40 ` Clem Cole
2023-01-30 19:55 ` Lawrence Stewart
2023-01-31 21:27 ` Dave Horsfall
2023-01-30 16:48 ` Theodore Ts'o
2023-01-30 16:57 ` Andy Kosela
2023-01-30 17:04 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30 20:38 ` Theodore Ts'o
2023-01-30 21:01 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30 21:10 ` Clem Cole
2023-01-30 16:03 ` Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 16:07 ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:13 ` Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 16:22 ` Steve Nickolas
2023-01-30 16:17 ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 16:18 ` Ralph Corderoy
2023-01-30 16:41 ` [TUHS] job control (Re: " Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 19:07 ` [TUHS] " Dan Cross
2023-01-30 13:26 ` John Cowan
2023-01-30 14:30 ` arnold
2023-01-30 0:25 ` Phil Budne
2023-01-30 2:08 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 18:27 ` Clem Cole
2023-01-22 10:56 ` Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS
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